2000 AD Online Forum

I'm enjoying the new Frazer Irving drawn Death stip immensly. So far it's doing a great job of putting a serious and frighting tone back into what recently  become a very camp and comical character. However, there's one element of Irving's art that is really bugging me.

Sorry if this has been mentioned before but, what is up with the shape of Irving's judge helmets. I mean, I'm all for artisic licence and all that, but the Judges are wearing bloody goldfish bowls on their heads!!! If Irving can get the shape of Death's helmet correct, whay can't he draw the Judges helmets properly.

HiEx

Isn't it up to the artist?

wasn't there a similar amount of debate about Brendan McCarthy's pointy judge helmets?

I like 'em. It shows Frazer's making the strip his own.

I'm just wondering if the 2000AD editorial staff actually give artists any guidlines to follow for drawing characters equipment etc. I suspect not, as we have seen some very weird interpretations of Judges uniforms, Lawgivers, Lawmasters over the years.

I don't mind artistic licence within limits, but completely changing the shape of the Judges helmet is a bit much for me.

On a positive note though I love Irving's Judge Death and he does a nice job of drawing the  Lawgiver MK.11 as shown in episode # 1 of the new Death story, (if I remember correctly).

Sorry, but I'm quite anal about artists screwing up drawing equipment!

HiEx

I don't like them. There was one in particular last week that just looked plain stupid. That's the only gripe I have with the Death series. I'm not saying he can't or shouldn't do it, but I think it spoils it. And lets face it, the vain attempt to "make the strip his own" is just plain arrogance. It's not his strip, it's Wagner and Bollands strip, albeit not creator owned. But, if artists insist on forcing us to look at their 'special helmets' then so be it. It'll just cause more people to say "What the f**ck's that? That's not a judges helmet!"

I disagree with you there. It was created by Wagner and Ezquerra but that doesn't mean people have to slavishly follow where they started. A lot of the better artists - Bolland, McMahon, Kennedy, Smith, Doherty, and so on draw the strip in their own way. As long as it's the same general look that's fine.

Irving should be encouraged to do things his way. The helmets are still recognisable Judge Helmets.
But I can see that they are probably about as far as they could go.

Sorry it's spoiling an aspect of this story for you because it's a mighty fine story. And Irving is probably the best Death art. Ever. And I mean that. I've directly compared pages to art by Bolland and Doherty. Irving is the man.

Agree. All the artist is doing is interpreting the story. It'd be dull as dishwater if no artist could stray from the accepted version (which happens a lot with DC and Marvel). And its hardly a new thing - look at Ezquerria's Dredd now compared to prog 2 or Death's regular style compared to the long neck version that Bisley did and was copied for the action figure.

Sorry Guys, round helmets rock, I suspect it would look daft with most artits, but this really works for me.

I feel a poll coming on...

(no, stop it)

I would say they are only just vaguely recognisable as Judge helmets and personally I do find it detracts from the story.

My view on things is that in a comic, a great story is important, but a great story can be spoilt by bad art, where as a bad story can be made enjoyable by excellent art.

Now  I'm not say Frazer Irving's art is bad. On the contrary I think he's doing a wonderful job, except for the Judge helmets.

I've just got this mental image of him sitting at his drawing board and using a schoolboy compass to draw perfect circles around all the Judges's heads for their helmets....so, somebody please take Frazer's compass away from him quick!

HiEx

Personally I find it a bit of a breath of fresh air, PARTICULARLY as a lot of Dredd artists draw a fucking terrible helmet.  Nobody ever complains about those.  

Cliff Robinson, who I love, his helmet is pants, really fucking awful, I wish he'd change it.  Now that is recognisable as the standard helmet and nobody ever complains about that.  Its like a particluarly bad attempt at a 70's Ezquerra.  

Then you get a whole load of artists who draw a helmet a cross between the bolland classic and mcarthy samurai, making this ugly 'thing'.

Personally, I like it when artists do something new within the parametres of the strip, I love looking at different takes such as Ewins, McCarthy and the others.

I don't think many people would get away with this desgin, but I think Frazers managed it, I certainly would be very doubtful of anyone else could do it and not make it ridiculous.

I like 'em.
The only problem I can see is one of continuity:-
If Death nicked his helmet from a dead Judge & stuck a grill over the front to make it a Dark Judge's helmet how come the whole shape changed?
Shouldn't Death's helmet be round as well?

Well, ok, Dredd was created by Ezqerra, but not Death. But seeing it's not Death's helmet we're talking about...

Well, what you have to remember is that what the artists is protraying is his vision of what happens.  DO you really think Justice Department change the style of their uniforms every week?  Is their a tired quartermaster judge sighing, because Hershey has demanded that we have the McCarthy Samurai this week, but to have the Eighties Model Ezquerra on standby?

The correct answer is of course:  bollocks do we

He he, that's a very good point. Maybe it's made of material that could have been completely reshaped. Or maybe that wasn't thought of? Oh dear!

Not at all, not at all. I just don't like the round ones.

Oh yeah, and Andersons face is too chubby, she looks more like Baby Spice! :o) It's like it's all in widescreen but shouldn't be.

By coincidence, i just read an interview with Pat Mills and Simon Bisley where Mills says "... the best Dredd's, for example, are when artists have said fuck everything else, i'm going to do it my way.... people have been so fucking brainwashed by "house style" that they don't know any better. I find it depressing because it dehumanises individuality"
And that was back in 1989.

But... how does that relate to the surpression of Pagan identity?

No, well said that man.

well said mr mills in 1989.

to set the record straight (as much as i can), the helmets aren't drawn "wrong" insomuch as i fully intended to go for the spherical design. personally i HATE the dustbin helmet and always have. it was only when i read the early mcmahon dredds that i saw a spherical design rteally struck a chord with me.

as for death's hat being a different shape, well he came from an alternate reality didn't he? well as far as i'm concerned they all wore dustbins on their heads over there. and if i ever have to draw deadworld: that's what u'll see.

Frazer

Thank goodness the title of this post wasn't "Frazer Irvings helmet" ... sorry but someones got to drag the tone down!

plastikman

Personally, I like the new style of helmet. Different but pretty good. Rest of the artwork is mind boggling.

RL

Frazer said:

"to set the record straight (as much as i can), the helmets aren't drawn "wrong" insomuch as i fully intended to go for the spherical design. personally i HATE the dustbin helmet and always have. it was only when i read the early mcmahon dredds that i saw a spherical design rteally struck a chord with me."

But Frazer er...how can i put this...you already drew Dredd with the typical 'dustbin' helmet.

See Judge Dredd: Asylum. Megazine Volume 4, Issue 5.

So why change it?

I prefer that look. And the dustbin look is THE original look to be fair. Having said all that, your artwork is great anyway.

By the way, why do you refer to it as a dustbin?

Look like a normal motorbike type helmet to me!:)

scojo

When I first read the strip it reminded me straight away of the very early Dredd strips. I wasn't sure at first but the design has started to grow on me. It looks more practical and robust than the usual ones which I think look a bit fragile to be of much use as a motorcycle helmet.

Great artwork BTW.

"I prefer that look. And the dustbin look is THE original look to be fair. "

Not true, Scojo. Mcmahon was the first Dredd artist in 2000AD publish. Mcmahon and Gibson make the helmets spheric *before* the dustbin cylinder.

Look at the top image on this link.

C

Link: Gaze into the face of sphere

whats it matter what shape the helmets are, its some of the best artwork (b&w) to appear in 2000ad for a long long time

Christophe,

You are wrong, sorry.

None of the early Dredd artists drew Dredd's helmet like a goldfish.

FACT.

I'm sorry but they didn't. The example you show proves this! McMahon never drew Dredd's helmet spherical like Irving's.

It has always been (with the exception of B McCarthy) like a motorbike helmet.

Trust me it really has. No dustbins, no spheres, no goldfish, just like a motorbiker's helmet. Albeit slightly modified at the front.

Frazer's helmet is just wrong. I'm sorry but that is the truth. That is why some fans don't like it. His art is still very good though.

scojo

DREDD HAS ALWAYS WORN A BIKER'S HELMET.

From prog 2 onwards that is what he has worn. The artists may have changed a bit here and there, some making the end point out, some making the end point it, BUT IT IS A BIKER'S HELMET!!!!!!

So please not use this silly "he wears a dustbin" nonsense.

Thank you.

scojo banging his head on a brick wall:)))

Why do you make a argument for no cause, scojo? It was you who said 'the dustbin look is the original look'. I showed the original helmet has not the cylinder shape like a dustbin but more spheric. I did not speak of goldfish.

Also, you do not have the right to say 'Frazer's helmet is just wrong'. You are not the editor of 2000AD. If you don't like it, that is your opinion but to say the vision of one artist is wrong and one is correct is ridiculous.

It is an ugly thing to believe you are always correct about everything, scojo. Just because you write 'I'm sorry but that is the truth' does not make it true. Why you don't be polite and say 'In my opinion', or better 'in my humble opinion'?

C

Fraze referred to it as a dustbin. He used that term originally, not me, so get your facts right.:)

I said "why do you call it a dustbin Fraze?"

Anyway Dredd wears a biker's helmet. If you are incapable of seeing that, well you're silly.

Listen Chris, in 25 years, Dredd has never worn a goldfish bowl over his head. Ever wondered why he hasn't?

Abuse to goldfish that's why.

scojo

Yeah, go gettim Christophe!

Tear his eyes out!

The current Dredd's helmet in no way resembles a bikers helmet.  Frazer's is the closest I've ever seen to a biker's helmet.

But many people forget that I drew Judge Dredd throughout the eighties with a pyramid design.  In fact it's only between my shock therapy treatment that I remember it.

YOU tell ME to get my facts right? My God!

Here are some facts, because you contradict yourself freely and ignore details so you can make a argument.
- I did never say it was you who originally used the term 'dustbin'. I quoted you in post 1519.2110000000 saying 'And the dustbin look is THE original look'. Look back, it is what you said.
-  I  did never say  Dredd wears a goldfish bowl
- I  did never say  Dredd didn't wear a biker's helmet.

I corrected your false claim that 'the dustbin look is THE original look' and because of your argumentative technique and inattention I must since make two posts to clarify my sentiment.

C

Christophe, don't let Scojo get to you - he does this to everyone.  If you argue back his replies just get more & more outrageous.

Oddboy.

Dear Oddboy,

thank you for your advise. I don't want to make a nuisance on the message board. Now I know to be careful with scojo.

It reminds me, I read an essay in comic strip form in an old fanzine (Vicious, 1994) which talked of Dredd's helmet drawn differently by different artists. May be the author should update it with Frazer's helmet!

C

The current Dredd's helmet in no way resembles a bikers helmet. Frazer's is the closest I've ever seen to a biker's helmet.

PVS

You are talking nonsense.

The current Dredd's helmet doesn't resemble a biker's helmet?

Course it does ya silly moo.

You say:
Frazer's is the closest I've ever seen to a biker's helmet.

EH??????????????????????????

Biker's helmets are not shaped like a blooming goldfish.

What's this man on? Fish food?

scojo - the shark amongst minnows

Scojo, if you are the shark, I am the kraken!  

The normal Dredd helmet is a round topped cylinder. Any bikers helmet from a moped to a mean one has much more shape and defintion than any judges.  

Hey, you are wrong.  On a multi-dimensional scale.