2000 AD Online Forum

... To everyone at IBM and Microsoft for doing their bit to make my working day just that little bit more frustrating than it needs to be.

Firstly, thank you to the Lotus Notes development team, for setting up the contacts system so that you can change a person's e-mail address in every one of the three places that it is immediately visible only to discover that the e-mails are STILL sent to the old address. That is, unless you think you to navigate through to a tabbed box marked "Advanced" and change it there.

And to those responsible for Microsoft Word. Thank you. Why on earth would I want the Open/Save/Insert Picture dialogue boxes to take me back to the same folder that I was JUST F*CKING USING rather than taking me to the "My Documents" directory every time?

And, given that if I want to insert multiple pictures into a Word document, the fact that I have to navigate all the way back to the folder I've saved them in from "My Documents" for each image isn't at all frustrating. No. Never mind, you've included the option to select multiple images from the Insert Picture dialogue.

Obviously, when using this feature I'll want the pictures inserting into the Document in PRECISELY THE REVERSE ORDER TO THE ORDER I SELECTED THEM IN.

Someone bring me a hammer.

Gaah!

Jim

As a Microsoft engineer whose employed by IBM, do I now feel really guilty.

Slips

PS- Notes is Sh!te.  Ive used it everyday for nearly 6 years and still cant use it properly.

I'm a Certified Lotus Professional. It's a crappy email client but a wonderful development environment for non-relational data.

M@

Bill Gates - Keeping himself in business since the late seventies...

smug*














* I use Macintosh.

Half-smug*





* I use both.

"I use Macintosh."

So do I. At home [1]. Wouldn't catch me touching a Windows box if had any choice in the matter.

It just astonishes me that there are so many people who accept this irrational, counter-intuitive piece of crap as an acceptable work tool, just because they don't know any better.

Cheers

Jim

[1] Mac user since '94 and proud of it. Ahh ... my old Performa 450 with its 4Mb of RAM and a specially upgraded 160Mb HD. That 25MHz clock speed was something to behold.

Well I was going to go on about Team Rooms and their  advantages.  But didnt think it was my place....

I have nothing against MACS, I have one at home.  But it was hardly the place for the usual MAC vs PC rant that occassionally occupies the board with no real resolution.....  ;)

Slips

It just astonishes me that there are so many people who accept this irrational, counter-intuitive piece of crap as an acceptable work tool, just because they don't know any better.

I like mice with two buttons.

M@

"I like mice with two buttons."

I don't particularly. Of course, there's no reason why you can't have a two button mouse on a Mac if you want one ...

Cheers

Jim

Ah, but did you prefer the ZX Spectrum or the Commodore 64?

And to those responsible for Microsoft Word. Thank you. Why on earth would I want the Open/Save/Insert Picture dialogue boxes to take me back to the same folder that I was JUST F*CKING USING rather than taking me to the "My Documents" directory every time?

but i like that function... unless you were being sarcastic, which doesn't make sense because when i insert pictures it always takes me back to the floder i was in the last time. What version of word are you using?

What you want is Sharepoint!

Link: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/technol

It just astonishes me that there are so many people who accept this irrational, counter-intuitive piece of crap as an acceptable work tool, just because they don't know any better.


But they don't know any better. You just said so yourself. If that's not an acceptable reason, I don't know what is.

"I have nothing against MACS, I have one at home. But it was hardly the place for the usual MAC vs PC rant that occassionally occupies the board with no real resolution..... ;)"

Ooooooooooooooooh, get you!

:-)

Can someone please tell me *why* macs are better?
For example, photoshop. Does it do its job any better on  mac?

Or is it simply that macos is a better operating system?

Yours
Confused of Sheffield

Macs are better because you get to be intolerably smug. That's about it.

"Can someone please tell me *why* macs are better?
For example, photoshop. Does it do its job any better on mac?

Or is it simply that macos is a better operating system? "

Firstly ... I just want to stress that I didn't bring Macs into this, and it wasn't my intention to do so. For what it's worth, I find Word fucking irritating on the Mac, too.

I can't answer your question about comparisons with any authority, because I'm still (quite happily) using my seven year old G4 running OS 9.1 and unaltered from the spec it came out of the box with.

There's a reason why something like two-thirds of all the Macs ever made are still in use, however, and that's because people love 'em in a way that people just _don't_ love their Windows boxes.

For me, my Mac experience is this simple: they just work.

When I got my aforementioned Performa 450 in '94, I had it out of the boxes and set up in less than 15 minutes and had created and printed my first document in less than an hour.

Fantastic. It did what I wanted without having to read a single manual. Within a few months, I was confident enough to upgrade the RAM myself and discovered the amazing simplicity of the old "pizza box" design. Two thumb catched at the back of the case, and you were in - a design only bettered with the side catch introduced on the G4.

They're just nice machines. Nicely designed and nicely built.

I'd never tell _anyone_ that they _needed_ a Mac ... I think of them a bit like the BMWs of the computer world: you pay through the nose for extra build quality and a user experience that no-one really _needs_, but that it's bloody nice to have if you can afford it.

Back when I was a graphic designer, there most definitely _was_ a difference, and I've included a link to my thoughts on that matter - it's hopelessly out of date, but the whole thread is neatly illustrative of the entrenched positions on both sides of the Mac/Windows divide.

I'll shut up now ...

Cheers

Jim

Link: Ancient Ramblings

I think these days it really is just a question of personal preference, although I agree that years ago there *was* a massive difference between the ability of Macs and PCs, especially for computer-based design work. The only thing that's always really incensed me about Macs is the snobbery that some people harbour. It's almost as bad as the sad knackers that are *still* doing their best to keep alive the Speccy-vs-Commodore-vs-Amstrad war 20-odd years on.

>There's a reason why something like two-thirds of all the Macs ever made are still in use, however, and that's because people love 'em in a way that people just _don't_ love their Windows boxes.

Is there a special slot to shove your knob in?

And the real argument is if you were one of those nice children who watched Blue Peter sitting on the sofa and always did your homework on time and had BBC micro or wether you were one of the cool and or hard kids who had a Speccy / Commadore / whatever

And the real argument is if you were one of those nice children who watched Blue Peter sitting on the sofa and always did your homework on time and had BBC micro or wether you were one of the cool and or hard kids who had a Speccy / Commadore / whatever

Erm...BBC Micro.
Don't hit me!

Acorn Electron me up...

:: I think these days it really is just a question
:: of personal preference

To some extent. I've used Windows since 3.0 and Macs since system 7. At the moment, I'm using Mac OS X 10.4 and Windows XP. Even now, I consider the Mac OS more usable than Windows. It's just more logical and it appears to have been designed by designers rather than engineers going "well, that's how *we* do it! It's obvious to *us*, so just fuck off", which is how Windows appears to be developed. Both systems have their failings, and both slow over time (although Windows is far worse at this).

:: The only thing that's always really incensed me about Macs
:: is the snobbery that some people harbour.

Frankly, PC users are just as bad at being zealots. I know a lot of people who toe the "Macs suck!" line, despite having never used one. Mac users can be smug, and PC users can be ignorant. Neither quality is particularly endearing.

As for Word, at least the Mac version has a live word count. I was amazed when I got the Windows version and discovered you had to click something to update the sodding word count counter. Grrr.

"Ah, but did you prefer the ZX Spectrum or the Commodore 64?"

I had a BBC Micro (ahh... Elite ... how close I came to failing my O Levels because of that game) followed by an Atari ST upgraded to a whole MEGABYTE of RAM ...

Cheers

Jim

To be honest, anyone not extremely familiar with both Mac and PC is talking out of their arse when slating whatever it is they don't use (and when I say 'Mac', I really mean OS X and above).

For me, it's definitely the operating system that makes the difference.  You can do anything on a PC that you can do on a Mac- no argument there- but OS X pisses all over Windows XP as far as I'm concerned and Windows would have to offer something fucking amazing to entice me back now.

And yes, Gary- it IS beautifully designed- both inside and out.  If it came with a hole for my nob, I might even be tempted...

;)

If it came with a hole for my nob, I might even be tempted...

A Dremel with a very small bit and you're sorted, then! ;)

I've not actually got to use OS X at all thanks to my last job being owned by a bunch of tight-fisted twats (I was having to use OS 9 on a G2, Photoshop 5, Illustrator 7 and Quark 4), so I can't really comment on that front. This has really had the knock-on effect that I'm now fucked CV-wise in that department, unless I fib and say I've actually used OS X, when I haven't.

:: This has really had the knock-on effect that I'm now fucked
:: CV-wise in that department, unless I fib and say I've actually
:: used OS X, when I haven't.

Just buy one of those "24 hour" books on OS X. If you're a long-time computer user, you should be able to get enough knowledge by just reading about it. Frankly, it's not _that_ different to OS 9 anyway, although its lack of constantly crashing is very much appreciated.

"I've not actually got to use OS X at all thanks to my last job being owned by a bunch of tight-fisted twats (I was having to use OS 9 on a G2, Photoshop 5, Illustrator 7 and Quark 4), so I can't really comment on that front. This has really had the knock-on effect that I'm now fucked CV-wise in that department, unless I fib and say I've actually used OS X, when I haven't."

Yeah, what IP said ... although I'm still on OS9, we moved to new Macs and OSX in my last design job. Setting them up and using them was a piece of piss [1]. X is prettier than 9, but you can use it in pretty much exactly the same way as 9, and I certainly didn't find Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign or Quark behaving differently at all.

Cheers

Jim

[1] I will even admit to giving an appreciative little chuckle when I plugged the first Mac into the ethernet socket and it went away and successfully auto-detected every PC and printer on the network, including the image setter, which I certainly wasn't expecting ...

Cheers. I've always thought I'd pick it up in no time, but not having used it at all really pissed me off.

Tbh, my last job, apart from taking the piss (no pay review at all in the four years I was there and having the oldest, least powerful machine in the office when I needed more than anyone else), it became embarassing when more and more clients came in with stuff on disc and we couldn't open them, because all of our software was that fucking old. We'd either have to send them away again or muggins would have to forego his lunch break and take the fucker home to backpedal it on my PC.

*And* I had to wear a shit tie. ;)

My first and only experience of Macs was a fairly disapointing one but it was only because I was a chucked in at the deep end and expected to edit my film with Final Cut Pro without everhaing experienced the one button mouse. When i thought i had the program sorted i messed up using the mouse and then the other way around.

I'd love a chance to properly use one without a tight deadline hanging over me.

We had an iMac until it died recently. I didn't like the puck mouse one bit but was very impressed at how we plugged it into our network and, as others have said, it just worked, and got onto the net straight away. It was a very low spec and ran Panther terribly, so I didn't use it much other than for testing the odd website.

As I've moved from a techy IT background into a more creative field, I've been tempted by Macs - specifically by Tiger which has some very useful features, and the more refined UI.

However there's very little difference in terms of what you can do (the programs we need are fully-featured across platforms) and even less inside now Apple have switched to Intel.

And here, as well as PCs being cheaper, the main benefit is that I can fiddle with problematic PCs and fix 99% of hardware and software problems myself. From my limited experience with Macs, were something to go wrong, I wouldn't know where to start.

Windows XP annoys me daily. Sometimes it takes around 15 seconds when I right-click for the menu to appear, windows steal focus when I don't want them to and I have some awful problem somewhere which means I can't copy-and-paste reliably when the Num Lock key is on. Memory doesn't seem to be used very well and I have around 30 background processes running even when I don't have any programs open.

And I hate the fact it (and Vista) is based on a kernel from the 1970s and hampered by needing to remain backward-compatible. There's also bad security and being a generic means no integration between the OS and any custom hardware, which is a shame.

The internal CD/DVD drive is broken - but that serves me right for walking into it when it was open.

But my PC is on most of the day and lets me run many aspects of my business and social life. So I guess it's pretty cool really.

M@

Hey.

Me again, the one that kicked all this off.

The reason I prefer Macs is quite simple really:

? they work, the hardly crash - and if they do nine times out ten it's very easy for the end user to fix and you don't have to call in the IT guy.
? they are easy to use, so much so that some designers who move to Mac from PC are confused because they are trying to do things the long way round and are quite frankly amazed when I show them it's just a key command or one click on the mouse.
? it has a one button mouse - there really is no need for two buttons - trust me.
? they are efficient - in a busy studio the last thing you need is an OS that takes you round the houses - OSX rocks!
? they are clean and well designed
? you get your money's worth - they do last a very long time.
? they feel solid and dependable to use - go from a mac to a PC and it feels like the whole things going to fall apart if you even blow on it. PC's may be cheaper but the ratio of purchasing PC's to macs is three to one.
? they are compatible with PC's
? just set 'em up and watch 'em go - what banners said about the network is true - I can plug in the ethernet cable to the back of a brand new machine and I'm surfing the net and linking to other Macs and the server in about 10 seconds (no kidding)

I'm not a MAC snob but believe me when I say that if everyone used MACs rather than PC's we'd have more time off work or more time to do even more work.

:-)

"From my limited experience with Macs, were something to go wrong, I wouldn't know where to start."

Yeah ... but in my experience they don't really go wrong! As I said, my G4 is unmodified (other than an upgrade from OS 9.02 to 9.1) in seven years.

In that time, it's had only two significant failures. Both times, crashing at start-up, both times fixed by Norton Utilities in fairly short order.

Over the years, this machine has always been my home machine for e-mail and internet access and has doubled up for print and web design, running Quark, Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Flash, Dreamweaver and Fireworks, and hooked up to a (completely unsupported) Calcomp graphics tablet, an Epson Stylus Photo EX, a variety of scanners and whatever external storage devices people have brought round.

TCO, around ?400 per year, with ZERO expenditure beyond the orginal outlay. Minus the money I made from a few freelance jobs probably puts me about a grand in credit on the machine.

I'm now on the verge of getting a new machine - this one really doesn't have the processing oomph for OSX and I'm finding a significant number of websites simply won't work with my unsupported browser. But I'll be truly sorry to say goodbye to the old workhorse ...

Cheers

Jim

:: If everyone used MACs rather than PC's we'd have more time off work or more time to do even more work.

And imagine if Amigas were still going. True hardware-based multi-tasking. Marvellous!

M@