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...and this TIME, its personnal....

...sorry for the really early posting of this thread for next sat and the last episode of series 3 of Dr Who, im away on holiday for a week so will be unable to post it on the day, would someoe be so kind as to bump it up the page on the day???...

...in the mean time we could use this thread to make guesses about what going to happen etc etc...

Ooh, now I know how the Doctor felt when he travelled back in time and discovered the Master had got there first ;)

That Funeral Pyre scene, wasn't it lifted scene-for-scene from the Vader pyre in ROTJ?

So Martha's gone (worst secret in showbusiness).

Wonder if he's going to spend next season looking for a way to get Rose back and getting her back in the last episode or some such.

Well, I don't know how original the funeral pyre thing was in the first place, knowing how much Lucas was fond of plundering.

The Ming the Merciless snaffling of the ring was just as blatant.

Could have done without the Dobby Doctor, and the one word bollocks turning him into some kind of Jedi Jesus - but it's par for the course with RTD.

The Toclafane reveal reminded me a bit of Rico.

- Steve

and the end of Flash Gordon....

Overall, terrible.

Confirms the Von Scott theory of Russell = Rose.  That is, RTD is in love with the character of the Doctor.  His stuff isnt too soapy - its too fannish.  He is the Garth Ennis of Dr Who, too close to the charcter to jsut write a good story - it all ahs to be about why the Docotr is such a great person.

The gollum thing.... aiiieeee!

There were good ideas in there, but as per usual, good ideas that hadn't been thought through, and were used as a vehicle for Doctor Love rather than actual plot and drama.  

why was the President still eliminated, as it was the toclofane that did for him wasnt it? They'd certainly appeared by then

I think he should have gone the whole hog and had the master come in with little costumes from previous doctors for the Dobby Doc.

- Steve

Utter shite.
Can't believe what i'm watching sometimes.
So, so many things wrong with it.
Funniest is the whole Martha walking the Earth for a year teaching the world about, and getting them to love, the Doctor.
Which consists of "there's this bloke right, and you don't know him but he's really great"
Second funniest - its a year later and no-ones hairs grown.

Oh, one thing i did like - Capt Jack actually being the Face Of Boe

Thought that to be a poor finale right down to the total retread of the 'coming at Christmas' conclusion. 'What!!?' said the Doctor and all the audience as the Tardis was invaded once again.

Good that Martha can coordinate the whole planet to think 'Doctor' all at one specific moment, what with time zones, language barriers lack of accurate watches and all. Was there any 'science' behind that or is it just the old strenghth of humanity gubbins once again?

How smelly must have the doctor been after the year was up? Very smelly.

The super powered Doctor and the Master - dead...? where just laughable and not in a good way.

"Its a year later and no-ones hairs grown"

Er, they probably had haircuts a few times during the year.

And the president was killed by the Toclafane who were already with the Master before he let the rest of them appear, the ones who killed that journalist.

So they chain Cap'n Jack up, beat him up, but trim and shave him? Ditto Doc?

What he said.



The worst thing is, my niece said the story was "a bit like Power Pack - just not as good".  For those not aware of such things, I recently bought her a Marvel all-ages book called Power Pack/Avengers, about the pre-adolescent superhero team stuck in a grim alternate future that ceases to be when they rescue the Avengers by travelling back into the past.  Bearing in mind the book was aimed at 8-11 year-olds, this week's Who still didn't have as coherent a storyline, and I'm inclined to defer to my 6 year-old colleague's professional opinion that the Jeopardy-free adventures of Power Pack did it better.

I liked the Face of Boe bit.

Well, the Doctor's hair mostly fell out when he became old, so didn't need cutting. And they kept feeding Captain Jack even though he can't starve to death...

but lets dissect this....

The Doctor seeing that the Master wants to.... erm.... not quite sure what hes doing... hes got a lot of missiles.... erm.... and a black hole converter... but lets not get into that - ITS NOT IMPORTANT!

So, seeing this, he tells Martha to travel the world and tell everyone how good he is for a year - and for everyone to think of the Doctor when the Master does a countdown (which he will, because he loves countdown - everyone loves countdown)...  It wont really matter much that they have to spend a year waiting for this, because once he can break the paradox machine, the reset button will once more be pushed.  The Doctor will gain God like powers (see Series 1 finale) through the hopes of milllions transmogrified somehow by the masters psychic phone network (see Cyberman relaunch)?

The problem seems to me to be that RTD scribbles down his characters emotional journeys and how much he loves the Doctor, then knocks up any old rubbish to get them from A to B and to proclaim that love.

Theres the seeds of something good in there, but RTDs drama is too dull, his humour too  broad and his characterisation too crude to pull it all off

Would be nice if RTD actually managed to end a season of Doctor Who with some science.
Not some psuedo-fantasy bollocks masquerading as science.
I bloody cringed at the "They are all saying Doctor"  "I'm tapped in to the telepathic web".  Well, if you can tap in, why not change the bleeding message to "Resist" instead of "Obey"?

But Jack as the Face of Boe?  Aces!

Shark jumpingly shite.

Will watch next year just to see how bad it can really get.

This coming from the bloke with a Dalek icon.

RTD is a fan writer out of his depth.  He's good at spectacle and emotion.  He can create an event, a stir, something that pushes the buttons of popular culture without really understanding how those buttons work.  

Sadly, he just doesn't have the skill to carry off the good ideas he does have.  Worse still, he's a myopic writer, unable to reach beyond his own emotion and experience.  When you watch one of his shows, you enter not the real world, not even the illusion of the real world, but Russell world, a rather gay gushing place of misplaced emotion and barely concieved fancy.  Like those old X-Files episodes, instead of wandering aout with torches looking moody, you just want them to turn the fucking lights on for a change and behave like grown ups.

The thing is with science fiction, it's one of the most derided mediums there is.  If you arrive from the outside, you may be mistaken for thinking any old shite will do.  But, unlike literary fiction, it requires ideas, imagination and considerable storytelling to make something work.  It has to make sense.  And you can do anything you can in any other genre.  It is without limits and boundaries.  It can be pure fantasy, high art o both.

I remember all the critics having an embolism over Dennis Potters' Lazarus nonsense.  It brought no credibility to science fiction, it just thrived off the fact that it was a pulp fiction genre, so anything goes.  And he'd done time travelling much better in the Singing Detective.

Science fiction is the only genre that deals with the present and the future.  Where we are at, and whee we might be going.  All the other stuff is just a post mortem on life.

To sum it up, I would have paid a months wages to have seen a commentary by Nigel Kneale on the best of Russell T Davies Doctor Who episodes.  Just to highlight it as the lazy godforsaken shite it is.

What utter pish.

I just knew RTD would shit things up.

Martha gone, shame as she was a good bit of totty and it really takes about 2 series to get the hang of a character.

Can a time lord just decide not to regenerate??

I thought it was part of their biology so deciding not to genenerate is a bit like me deciding not to grow eyebrows.

Titanic. Isn't the Tardis virtually indestructable??? How could a bit of metal (granted, a very large bit of metal) break the tardis.

Must do better, maybe with RTD's departure things will pick up. I just hope he's not involved in the Christmas episode.

Just saw this - I'd say that it fell over slightly at the 'hey wow the Doctor is ACE! Suck up to him mentally and he will get teh superpowers' bit, but it got back up again when the doctor had a good cry over the Master dying, which is frankly the only acceptable time for the Doctor to have a good cry. I mean he actually had something there which it made dramatic sense to cry about.

I'm slightly dubious about the possible female Master, since a) it reduces even further the likelihood that the Master will have a beard and b) it will make the implicit explicit i.e. inter-timelord lust.

If that was the master at the flash gordon end and is now a woman does this lead the way for a female Dr.??

Hmmmmm, time traveler on board the Titanic.

Never heard of that one before.

If that was the master at the flash gordon end and is now a woman does this lead the way for a female Dr.??

Wasnt there an evil female time lord once? The Rani was it?

>Good that Martha can coordinate the whole planet to think 'Doctor' all at one specific moment, what with time zones, language barriers lack of accurate watches and all.

didnt they use the countdown clock to focus their thoughts.

Anyway pure shite, so much I disliked that it'd take forever to list.

Having thought about it, that was pretty much the worst of new Who by a long chalk.  

Particularly misjudged were the Master as wife beating psycopathic womaniser (what else can you expect from those damned Heteros though!), the Doctor as Jesus and generally the misjudged attempts at adulting up a very silly premise.  

The Master has enslaved an entire race and (I think) wants to wipe out the universe.  I hope next season we see the historical were the Doctor visits Hitlers bunker and gives him  a hug before he pulls the trigger.

"Anyway pure shite, so much I disliked that it'd take forever to list."

Agreed. I thought this episode was so bad it was offensive. I actually feel like writing to the BBC and asking for part of my license fee back.

Cheers!

Jim

>> I hope next season we see the historical were the Doctor visits Hitlers bunker . . .

. . . Featuring the surprise return of Bad Wolf Rose Tyler in a lupine smack-down against Noble Wolf Adi.

Yeah - offensive is a word I'm teetering on the edge of using.  Previously i've been disappointed, annoyed or pleasantly surprised by new Who.  this is the first one to leave a sour taste in my mouth, though not for any one real reason.  It just seemed all of RTDs worst traits cae together with a shedload of hard to pin down unsavouriness

Offensive? Isn't that a bit strong?
Surely at the very worst it was just silly panto bollocks, like much of the series in general.

WTF - it wasn't that bad, in fact I thought it was pretty good entertainment. You lot take it way too seriously.

I'm amused and reassured that the ending of Doctor Who has caused more consternation than the car bombs  and flaming Jeeps of the last few days.

"Terrorwhosits?  A a car what now?  But they made the Doctor like Jesus, this is far more important!"

I'm amused and reassured that the ending of Doctor Who has caused more consternation than the car bombs and flaming Jeeps of the last few days.

...Um, what did you expect to see on a review thread of Doctor Who other than reviews of this week's Doctor Who?

I thought that was a bit of a shit eposiode. Poorly written, with-one-bound-our-hero-was-free bollocks.

Also...

Link: ...was this more the sort of thing you were after,

Sorry for not meeting my car bomb discussion quota. You self-righteous git.

I enjoyed it but I must ask Master as wife beating psycopathic womaniser....err when did this happen?!?

I thought mrs saxon shot and killed him because of one of two things

1 she becomes as scared as the rest of the world

2 it was his back up plan

Guys, I think you misread my intent here.
I really am pleased that we would rather talk about our favourite sci fi show than worry ourselves into nothingness by concentrating on the bombs.

Other places I go to are trying to whip each other up into a whirl of fear and panic.
I see this place as a bastion of the stiff upper lippedness that sayd "Oh, are they doing it again?  Botheration."

I've been to American message boards that are more vocally worried about it than we are, and that's the way I like it.

"Master as wife beating psycopathic womaniser....err when did this happen?!?"

Did you not notice the black eye in yesterday's episode?

& grud knows what other crazy shit he was doing to her, it was certainly hinted at that she was pretty broken...

anyway, best episode evah !!! since last week, i cried, and laughed, and exclaimed Nooooo ! etc. i gather this thread thought it was shit, but i disagree therefore shan't waste time reading it at length.  why o why o why watch something you don't enjoy ?

"Offensive? Isn't that a bit strong?
Surely at the very worst it was just silly panto bollocks, like much of the series in general."

Horses. Courses. I felt that the contempt for the audience which dripped from every lazy plot hole, every third rate cliche, every yawning chasm in story logic, was offensive.

In the grand scheme of things, yes, there is plenty of stuff going on in the world that I could get much more worked up over. This, however, is a thread about Doctor Who, and this episode was not just shit, but shit that insulted it its audience.

Bah.

Jim

Don't know why i'm bothering burning brain cells on this but:
i took it that, when things started going belly up, the Master switched minds with his wife.
That's why "he" couldn't regenerate as "he" was human,
"he" was under the real Masters command to say the dying speech stuff,
and that was the Master in girlie form at the end reclaiming his ring.

Time lord mind switch?

Certainly sounds like something RTD would come up with, but has this happened before.

Has a time lord switched minds with anyone/thing in a previous story or is RTD just making it up as he goes along as usual?

It's all a bit Vulcan mind meld isn't it, but hell, he's taken so much from alot of other things when why not.

Apologies for misreading your intent, Garamin, and for calling you a git.

It's probably a bit more prosaic than that - the ring is the escape hatch/respository for his consciousness, and she was in on it. Hence telling Martha's Mum to pull the trigger, not wanting to regenerate etc.

No problem Al.


I never even considered he might have possesed Lucy and mind controlled the Simm body.  That seems waaaaaaaaaay too out there.  It IS for kids remember.

Well, if you look in the Doctor's dream journal (no, really, he had a dream journal) from that episode where he was a teacher and his brains was all in his watch, the McGann version of the Doctor was among the previous incarnations scribbled on one page, so that can be taken as meaning the events of the Canadian tv movie version (starring Eric Roberts as the Master, fact-fans) are canon.  This does mean the Doctor's half-human, but also means the master has a history of mind-swapping in the New Whoniverse.

Some goofy stuff in there but I thought it was a fantastic episode. Guess I'm in the minority on this one : )
For what it's worth my 15 year old cousin, 50-something parents and 86 year old gran also loved it. Maybe its just not the show for you, guys. Try Supernatural instead : )

Some goofy stuff in there but I thought it was a fantastic episode. Guess I'm in the minority on this one : )
For what it's worth my 15 year old cousin, 50-something parents and 86 year old gran also loved it. Maybe its just not the show for you, guys. Try Supernatural instead : )

Erm, they weren't saying that they disliked Doctor Who as a whole, just this episode,and possibly other RTD episodes. (Does anyone agree here, 'The Family of Blood episodes' and the one with the weeping angel statues was really good? You don't have to answer here as this isn't the thread, but I think you'll get my point.) There's no point in saying "Why watch it if you dislike it.", as you can't know if you've liked it until you've seen it.

I for one actually quite liked this episode. But I agree that the way they restored the Doctor was utter pants. "I had a whole year to tune into the mobile phone signal thingamebob and when everyone sends me their happy thought's it allows me to rejuvenate! I won't even get mangled by the cage I'm stuck in as I get bigger."  Please! This is Doctor Who not Peter Pan. It's not as if they didn't have a way to rejuvenate him already, the Master's laser screwdriver. Ok, it's tuned to the Master's DNA but I'm sure they could figure a way round that.

Overall I think they put to much on Martha and should have given a greater role to other characters like Captain Jack who ended up little more than target practice. (I liked the Face of Boe gag though.) By all means keep Martha's role important. Have her walk the Earth (or actually just England would do) and create a resistant movement. (A proper resistance movement I mean, that say, shoots electronic pulses at floating orbs rather than telling everyone to say "Doctor!" at Gordon- bennitt-o-clock.) But then have the inside guys/gals to somehow make a second escape attempt themselves, like say, finding the Doctor's sonic screwdriver and using it to reset the laser screwdriver to accept other peoples control. Maybe even break the Master's future human mind control and send the orbs to break down the arch angel network (not all of them, a strike force would do).

These are just ideas, understand, and they might not be even that good, but I think it's better than the resolution they came up with.

As for the Master's changing bodies, apparently he did that in the older series once or twice too after he used up his regenerations. That was before the Doctor Who film.

A waste of the talents of a great many people in the service of one damned awful story - and if it weren't for the occasional good episode, I'd be tempted to swap "series" for "story".

Some of them were. Anyway I was just joking.

I think a problem with this episode is the promise and potential offered from its first part, which is why it's had such a backlash. It's not as bad as some people were making out, but it was pretty bollocks.

If everyone was going to be thinking Doctor at the same time, why did Martha need to be caught? Just to get her at the eye of the storm? Was that really worth endangering her life for?

'I forgive you' - I thought this was the Doctor who gave no second chances? Oh unless it's someone from his world. Racist.

I disliked the Face of Boe revelation, but I guess I'm alone there.

I see Marthas due to join Torchwood, so that'll be both Doctor and companion on a sinking ship then...

Of course, the production team are very careful not to encourage the kids to watch Torchwood....

bah!  Its like the end of season 2 all over again.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the masters song and dance routine at the start??? After witnessing this it was a case of Fucksake, jacket on, leave house for the pub early.

Hear hear. Spider-Man 3 all over again.

"I'm surprised no one mentioned the masters song and dance routine at the start??? After witnessing this it was a case of Fucksake, jacket on, leave house for the pub early."

See, I loved that. Just the perfect combination of bat-shit OTT and menance. Personally, whilst this episode had its flaws I thought they were a number of strong points; the face of boe revelation, Simm's Master was more consistent than in the previous episode, the revelation about the true nature of the toclafene(sic) and emotionally the Master's death scene was excellent.

I thought the song and dance just reaffirmed RTDs limited frame of reference once again - the only music in the universe is cheesy pop - loved by the people of teh year 2 billion and evil Time Lords alike.

The Face of Boe revelation is another of RTDs trying to be clever like Moffatt, but actually, just not making much sense, and diminishing both characters in my eye.

Simms Master was consistently a cliched boggle eyed psycho womanising wife beater.

As for his death scene... well, as I said earlier , this is more inconsistency in the Doctors character.  

The Family piss him off and kill a few people, but are rendered harmless - solution:  Comdemn them to eternal torment.

The Master (on his umpteenth chance) attempts to wipe out the universe, and gets a hug and tears... This isnt the Doctor talking about his past, its RTD ruminating on his lost childhood.  either that, or the Doctor's a big Racist.

and emotionally the Master's death...

...just reminded me of

In the minority with Queen B here, I liked it; its kid's tosh TV, escapism, a bit of fun with a bit of a positive message; humans working together, one earth etc, not to mention the forgiveness anti macho stuff. Maybe its that you don,t like ;p

For me it was great to see the joy/wonder dawn on my 10 year olds face as he pieced together the Face of Bo bit

Anyway I love telly where the problem isn't sorted out with a handgun like so much stuff these days... hey wait a minute

Dr Huff

I can't believe I wasted a lunch hour coming home to watch my taped copy.

So awful, so mind-bogglingly terrible that I was shouting 'bollocks!' loudly at the telly around my bacon sandwich. I'm already drafting a letter to RTD making a last-ditch attempt to appeal to his sense of reason and quit right now while there's still a grain of hope for the whole thing.

Did you not notice the black eye in yesterday's episode?

Not until I saw the repeat then I saw it

Another minority-er here.  I quite liked it, warts and all.  It's no more bonkers than the TV movie taking the Master for trial by the Daleks, and was actually much more fun and in places more Who-ish.

Dodgy bits (see I'm not biased):

Doctor's psychic prayer rehabilitation

Martha's not quite believable globetrotting folk hero

Tom's very 80's death scene

Not sure about the cremation scene, not because it's featured in Jedi (big deal: newsflash; Jedi stole the concept from elsewhere, including, the real world) but because it seemed un-Time-Lordish, and a bit random.

Various plot holes eg. where was the Dr's screwdriver all this time, or did I miss it being confiscated.

+Other stuff I can't be bothered to list.

Good bits:

Torture [Dr's aging/regression thing] of a kind, which I'd thought we wouldn't see in new kid-friendly Who (not that torture is big or clever by itself, but it's very dramatic, a dramatic staple of classic episodes)

The "song and dance routine" with the helpless aged Doctor wheelchaired around, very mad, sinister and blackly humourous scene. Iconic stuff.

John Simm - I take back what I said about him before, and now I'm sorry he's unlikely to reprise the role again. greatly performed "death" scene.

The Master "refusing" to regenerate - he's so bitterly peverse he doesn't even have that respect for himself (or maybe he has another solution...)

Lucy Saxon describing Utopia and the ending of the universe and how after seeing that everything seemed totally pointless.

The future human prosthetics; Rico on steroids.

The concept of the Tardis as the paradox machine allowing the future humans to change their own past. People say this episode is derivative but I can't think of many other Sci Fi TV shows that have used this idea, and I don't care if there are fifteen obscure 1930's Russian SF novels that pioneered the concept...

Jack's destiny in getting older for 5 billion more years.

+ other stuff I con't be bothered to list


I've watched it twice and still can't for sure see Lucy's black eye, where does it appear exactly?  It must be quite subtle make up, or I need better glasses, or you're all advancing it frame-by-frame on a 46" TFT flat screen despite your disgust at proceedings.  Given that it's not  a huge plot point I can't get that worked up about it.  I mean if a baddie can take over the world, kill presidents and turn future humans into flying psychopathic cyborg heads, is it really that outrageous that he'd indulge in some old fashioned "domestic abuse" as a hobby?  You might as well say him striking the vulnerable Doctor is a bit out of character with the old cerebral, machiavellian Master who'd rather have a proper duel with swords etc.

I think part of the problem is the one-year time jump with biting off a massive epic conceit such as firstly turning Martha into a hero and then the Doctor into an almost religious figure with massive psychic powers. The psychic stuff is nothing new to Who itself, but ramped up a great deal from hypnosis/psychic paper.  It might have benefitted from more explanation about the satellites which despite having an important role we never actually saw, that might have made the Doctor's psychic self-cure powers less of a leap (e.g. maybe the satellites can convert and amplify psychic energy into something else or some such bollocks).  But it's worth remembering classic stories like Fenric and Battlefield involved psychic/ belief/ supernatural stuff, just not on that physical scale.



 

The Family piss him off and kill a few people, but are rendered harmless - solution: Comdemn them to eternal torment.

The Master (on his umpteenth chance) attempts to wipe out the universe, and gets a hug and tears... This isnt the Doctor talking about his past, its RTD ruminating on his lost childhood. either that, or the Doctor's a big Racist.


There were some times in the old series when the Doctor  had the chance to kill an enemy and didn't (I think Davros was one), while other times he was less bothered (e.g. shooting Ogrons).  He did say he was going to "keep" him in the Tardis, presumably confined to a room, for eternity.  Not so much better, for the Master anyway, than the Family's fate.  

And even if it is, I'm not so bothered, because in reality people do apply slightly different rules to different people and on different circumstances. Once he might not have tried to kill the last remaining Dalek, anoither time he basically did collude in "killing" the Master (via the Daleks in the TV movie).  If anything you could say it was the Family who received a more atypical treatment from the generally pacifist Doctor than the Master.

Only one way to improve New Who.

Heh. I've seen that show, funny stuff.

Not that Tenant himself is the problem (I think he's great as the Doctor) just a lot of the plot resolution.

Maybe part of that problem is the simple fact that it's a family show so they go for the cheeseball quick-fixes to dazzle the kiddies. I don't think they need to do that though neither should they. An intelligent resolution would work for the kids too and even if they don't quite get it, so what. It gives them something to think about.

I saw a few episodes of a kids' show 'M.I. High' a while ago, a bit like a comedy Spy Kids kind of thing. It was great fun and very well written, the episodes were usually about something and the jokes were good, and I remember thinking that although it was knockabout and on a Kids' TV slot if Doctor Who had come back like it and was similarly written, it wouldn't be half bad.

"The "song and dance routine" with the helpless aged Doctor wheelchaired around, very mad, sinister and blackly humourous scene. Iconic stuff. "


That made me think of the totally bonkers last episode of The Prisoner.