I've been reading with great interest the threads concerning reviewing and criticism on this message board and for my twopence worth I have to say that I agree with the droids who spoke up, including Matt and John Smith. This is indeed the official website and message board so we should show a bit of respect. Looking at my small few posts over the past while I've been guilty of being a teeny bit rude about people and feel a bit bad about it in hindsight. there ya go.
But on to other targets. Mark Millar. Former droid. I think he's an acceptable target seeing as he's been very dismissive of 2000ad in the past even though it was there that he got his breaks. I'm just wondering if anyone is reading his current American output and would agree with me as to the wildly varying quality of them and how disproportionate his view of himself is.
Fantastic Four: A few issues in and its really very very poor and has nothing to do with the real fantastic four at all I think. And completely disregards a great run by the previous writer Dwayne McDuffie. And am I the only one that thinks Bryan Hitch's art is pretty awful on this?
Kick Ass: Very good. Interesting, restrained and Funny. A really good hook and very well executed (helped of course by the master John Romita JR. I'd love to see a Dredd by him) I'm surprised its by the same writer.
Now that's as it may be. In my opinion one hit and one stinker. No great crime here. But my big enormous problem is the massive ego he portrays online. If I hear again how many copies of Civil War was sold I'll feck me macbook out the window. I don't care. It was still useless (my opnion). And his grandstanding about how it would take him and Bryan Hitch to put Fantastic Four back in the top ten where it belongs makes me sick.
Humility thy name is NOT millar.
I don't know why I do it to myself but I occasionally lurk over at the millarworld boards to see what he'll come out with next. He's currently throwing about the sales figures for kick ass. Its a great product I grant you but, again, I don't want to know. I'm a poncey actor and I'm playin the lead in a very successful show in Dublin but I'm not gonna come on here and give ye the details of me paycheck. And on the messageboards over there people seem to just lap it up. Thankfully there's a huge difference here. Lively debate is good. Not that there isn't that on Millarworld, but there is a lot of hanging on creators words there.
It galls me. Big time. I think its a pity. I wish someone of the stunning talent of John Wagner was so successful. And if he was we wouldn't know the gory details about it. and that's as it should be. I bet Alan Grant made tons more when he was on Batman (especially seeing as it was at the time of the original movies) but I don't know, he hasn't broadcast it with what seems to be a smug smile on every messageboard and interview he's done.
Thankfully 2000ad creators are not like that. I'm grateful for their talent and humility and a great read each week without ego shoved down our throats.
A big rant I know. Hope I haven't offended anyone and hopefully it might kick off some debate.
Best to ye all
Jamie Beamish
(Me real name :-)
I dunno Jamie, I think a large part of Miller's success is done to the boasting. While here, in the UK, there's a large, audible sigh when somebody starts droning on about how great they are in america they tend to prefer people with a little bit of bombast.
Maybe it's all just a sham - but I'm sure for every person that's turned off by his self-glorification there's probably another couple that like it (or hate it so much that they have to buy his next book to be outraged by it, thereby pushing the sales numbers up).
I've been told before that my blog is a little too honest for the americans (where upon I pour doubt, derision and scorn on my own abilities) and may, in fact, hamper my prospects for the yankee dollar (such as it is).
I suspect that one-to-one Mark Miller is probably a decent enough bloke.*
-pj
*Though I suspect that about anyone - I'm aware that this is deeply naive.
I think you might have something there PJ. I think over this side of the atlantic we do view that kind of self promotion with a fair dose of wariness and derision. I check out his books because he can come out with some great stuff (really liked ultimates 1 and Wanted amongst others) and I certainly don't mean to attack him personally. He's very loyal to his fans. And I'm sure he's a nice bloke.
It is a pity that this is what he needs to resort to. In my business i've been told that I don't kiss enough ass, don't network properly am too honest at auditions. Its because I prefer to be me, not some version of me. and I applaud you for bein honest in your blog. I think yer right to be. Self criticism is essential, we're always learning no matter what.
I begrudge no one success (because generally its something hard won). I suppose the thing that irks me about Millar is watching someone so blatantly play a game. And people follow it.
So I think you might be right, it may be an American thing.
Any Americans care to comment?
best
jamie b
Miller's early American work was unexceptional, but he managed to get a lot more increasingly-higher profile work as time went on, which to me says he knows how to network - in my mind suggesting a certain affability in person. Plus, as PJ says, Americans like you to sell yourself because they're used to hearing that all the time and making employment decisions based on what they're told - if you can't tell them why they need to hire you, who else will? plus, it's his messageboard, so it's going to be an advertisement for his work to a certain extent. He's hardly likely to start telling everyone that his latest book is yet another rip on Escape From New York or Hills Have Eyes, but with added comedy mutants based on the stars of old tv shows, is he?
Miller is rather ill at the minute with Crohn's disease or something like that. I know if I was on these boards saying stuff like "Miller should die for inflicting Babe Race upon us!" and then his health took a turn for the worst, I'd feel pretty awful with myself, so that's probably a good reason to rein in the negativity for a bit - or at least the vitriol (keeping the criticism qualified and civil).
I remember liking the art on Babe Race, one pretty good cover especially, and Maniac 5 (story and art) was great fun, too - Miller was responsible for both of these things. He had a poor Dredd track record, but a lot of otherwise capable writers never nailed that character either. And I liked the art on Frankenstein Division.
I know that Millar has been very ill with Crohn's disease and I very much sympathise with the poor fecker, I had 6 months of chemotherapy last year and I know all about havin to puke for what seems to be 24 hours a day (amongst other things).
But this is absolutely not about that. And that's why I invited constructive debate rather than just attacking his work (a lot of which I like). Your dead right it is his website, but if you go to another writers board - say peter david's - he announces and promotes his projects, but not with such hyperbole as to make it seem like the second coming in comics.
Like I said I'm not attacking him personally at all, I just dislike this media persona he projects, and feel its a pity that its now starting to be clear to me what lengths are needed to go to to sell things.
Millar is a bit of a hack IMO. He likes to throw around pseudo-political gibberish in all his work ham-handedly.
Which is why I despair about his upcoming War-Heroes title. The concept is sound, but he'll spend the whole series bashing us over the head about how morally bankrupt the US military is and every character will be a self-centered jerk-face.
Just like The Ultimates
Kick-Ass is god awful too. For a "realistic" take on a kid trying to be a Super-Hero its very unrealistic in every way.
The only book of Millar's I've ever remotely enjoyed is Red Son. Some how he screwed up and made that rather enjoyable.
Disingenuous thread?
In what way? I'm sorry if it seems like that.
JB
The thread title suggests a balanced overview, but it's mostly negative so far. More people just need to join in, I think, as I'm pretty sure there's some love here for the Ultimates and it'd be a pity if that went unspoken.
I like 2000ad, but those making it should care less about me and more more about replacing me in case I get ran down by a truck or something, and that means stuff aimed at getting ADHD-riddled Xbox-straddling cellphone addicts to pick the book up and read it, instead of going out and knifing someone when they've got five minutes to spare.
In this regard, I think Miller was ahead of the curve for 2000ad. There's a certain disregard for the need to constantly drag in casual readers and renew the audience that's crept into 2000ad as it becomes more insular and unadventurous with the progress of the years, pandering more and more to a core audience. The kind of - admittedly shallow - bombast that Miller has made his stock in trade is just the kind of thing the comic could currently benefit from, as Miller's input with such things as Civil War has helped get readers back into Marvel comics to the point that the company posted double profits in the same period that DC (revelling in fan-pandering metatextual references to their online critics) has posted losses.
Rereading that, it still sounds a bit weasely and negative, so cards on table without the weasely provisos: I liked Babe Race, Silo, Maniac 5, Cannon Fodder was awesome (some more strips like that would bring in new readers easily), Grudge Father suffered from messy art but was otherwise a decent strip, and Robo Hunter would have gone down better with the more hardcore reader if taken out of the universe of Robo hunter and turned into something else. And then there's Big Dave. Or as it seems to be known around here, "Oh no - people who don't read 2000ad are talking about it." Big Dave has met with universal approval from my non-comic-reading mates, and a couple of them read Savage now - nothing else, just Savage. Usually by borrowing my copy of 2000ad, but one of them bought the comic himself while the current Savage run was underway. Result.
To sum up my tuppence: Mark Miller - old school readers didn't like him, and somewhere along the lines, it got forgotten that perhaps this was entirely the point. Just my opinion.
I went up to Steve Yeowell and asked for a picture of maniac 5 at Bristol.
I was talking to Ed Berridge about this sketch and he was pretty negative about the sketch. But in a fun way.
SY told me the ppicture was based on the Deer Hunter Bob de Niro so is that indirectly positive?
Having concluded the Millar years, and all those strips which are even worse than you remember them, in my ongoing reread, the subject of Mark Millar's alleged "talent" isn't one I care to revisit.
The dialogue style that Millar uses in Tooth which seldom worked because the rest of the story was poorly thought out can be seen in the Ultimates which has a really good back story and is cracking from beginning to end.
Red Son was the least Millar like story he has written. Probably why it is so good.
And as for Civil War. It pretty OK as storeys go and I can even forgive the bit where the Punisher whacks those Villains. However, to have the main plot device to be about weather heroes should be controlled and licensed like that and Iron man becoming almost an Orwellian dictator and for Cap and his supporters to take such a (IMHO correct) stand against some pretty dodgy actions by Stark and co AND THEN HAVE THEM TELEPORT RIGHT IN TO THE MIDDLE OF NEW YORK AND START FIGHTING! Was the biggest Shark jumping event in comicâ??s recent history and is why I will never read any Millar stuff out side of the stuff I now have.
well not much to say except I like Red Son and Ultimates is the biz. I didn't mind Civil War to a point but Tweak is quite correct ion the whole wrap up of the thing its just dumb.
For his Tooth stuff Maniac 5 was good and Grudge Father had some good ideas in it (Grudge Mother!!!) if it only had decent art (though the style has grown on me a bit on my last re-read).
this reminds me, must get Ultimates 2 boook 2 now that its finaly wrapped.
CU Radbacker
I can name the good stuff he did for tooth on one hand I really can
Saying that I did enjoy red son and some of his ultimate work is a good read
I have to say i thought we were onto something good with Silo, but he didn't live up to my expectations. ANyway, i want to be positive, it's far too easy to be negative like i usually am about him. I liked Big Dave a lot, and i didn't mind Babe Race 2000. Never a fan of Maniac 5 (Didn't anybody notice that Tony Blair came back to life after commiting suicide?) but i actually didn't mind Return to Verdus, having never seen Apocalypse Now at the time. Haven't really read any of his American stuff.
Does he really deride 2000ad these days? That's bang out of order, it's not like they ripped him off or anything.
Despite the perception of Millar as an arragant egotist, something I can neither confirm or deny as A: I've never met the bloke and B: I've not read many interviews with him. My opinion is based upon the comics of his I have read. I'm probably in the minority here as I enjoyed some of his Dredd work-Purgatory in particular and his Marvel series The Ultimates, was one of the few essential US comics I felt worthy of collecting. Not read any of his Fantastic Four stuff, so can't comment.
I'm slightly dubious about the point of this thread however. Is it just because current creators are felt to be now off limits for criticism that it's felt the need to attack a "legitimate" target, who hasn't produced anything for 2000ad in a long time and who seems to be generally disliked by the community as a whole?
If so, this doesn't seem to be particularly constructive either.
The Grudge-Mother came from the second series, which was written by Nigel Long...
Interessting you started this thread with the opener,' acceptable target'..
By who's reckoning exactly? I think you may be going about this all wrong.
By all means write a critique of Millar's work, but what is your objective, if not just to shoot him down?
Ahh...
I give up.
Quote: "Interessting you started this thread with the opener,' acceptable target'.. By who's reckoning exactly? I think you may be going about this all wrong. By all means write a critique of Millar's work, but what is your objective, if not just to shoot him down?"
I guess you're right Rufus. I may have gone about it wrong. The title of this thread is very dodge and I should have worded it better, pity there's no way to change that here.
What I was looking to do was to vent my annoyance at Millar's bragging and grandstanding in the comics press when some of the material he's bragging about is nothing special () and I was wondering if its just me? I also stated that I do like a lot of what he's done or is doing. Just looking for a bit of discussion on the discussion board is all. And I thought here might be a good place to bring it up as people seem widely read and not 'Marvel zombies' (nothing wrong with bein a marvel zombie tho).
That's why I started the thread but I think my paragraph at the beginning may have got it off on the wrong foot. There I just wanted to make a little comment on what was happening on other threads. I should have posted that there maybe.
Not to worry leave the thread die. As I said I didn't want to offend or annoy anyone.
Best to all
Jamie Beamish
"I suspect that one-to-one Mark Miller is probably a decent enough bloke.*"
Alan Grant let him stay in his house and thent he guy went and made fun of his decor! That's some pretty uncool behaviour right there...
I have to say, I like his mindless action approach sometimes, but I feel he has trouble with the endings of his stories. There doesn't seem to be any logical reason for his heroes to succeed apart from the fact that they get really, really mad.
Erm, heh, just got Civil War today after seeing it in HMV for a fiver. Its not that bad, script wise, but the art is awesomeness! Anyhoo, do we really need this thread? After all the negativity lately? :-/
like i said apologies for starting it - leave it die sure.
best
jb
*Bump*
JBC,
Tony Blair didn't commit suicide, he just blew up London. Doesn't mean he was still in London when it happened.
Peronally, I loved his Civil War stuff.
I dunno about anyone else, but when I read a superhero book, the kind of this I want to see are thing like Capt America escaping from SHIELD by surfing the back of a jet fighter- and these are the kind of things he delivered in Civil War.
I don't give a shit about anything but entertainment in superhero books, and Millar delivers that.
Don't think I've read any of his Dredd. I really enjoyed Chosen, Unfunnies, Red Son and a run he had on Spiderman.
I enjoyed Wanted right up until the last page and then the red mist descended.
Red Son is pretty much teh ets thing he's done, IMHO, and one of my favourite Superman peices. The Ultimates, when it's firing on all cylinders at least, is pretty rocking as well, with the cheap insertion of ripped-from-the-headlines stuff that may or may not work being a part of that.
Some of his Swamp Thing stand alone peices are damn good horror stories as well, and I particulalry like the Man In The High Castle one. FWIW I dug Silo as well.
The Morrison/Millar scripted Aztek trade I just bought, on the other hand, is pretty awful.
I met him at Brighton when he came over to the FQ table, he was very friendly, nice, chatty with some interesting stuff to say - and he listened too. Bolt and RAC were there too.
Ohhh! I forgot about that!
You're right, he was rather nice guy!
And I liked Big Dave!
He had the SFX guy with him (Steve I think). And he BOUGHT the End Is Nigh.
Yup, we gave him (the SFX guy) copies of the books, and they ended up as fanzine of the month, I believe...
Every one we've given them became fanzine of the month...should send em some more if we have any left.
Given his later work I wonder how much of the populist, topical stuff in Big Dave was Millars influence.
BRING BACK BIG DAVE!
Given his later work I wonder how much of the populist, topical stuff in Big Dave was Millars influence.
BRING BACK BIG DAVE!
Yeah, good point. I think we (that is I) kind of assumed Morrison was the Eric Morcambe, the Stan Laurel, the Dustin Gee of that partnership. But looking at Dave, or even Manic 5 (which I also liked)- he was really writing superhero punch ups all along.
And I would like to echo the sentiment:
BRING BACK BIG DAVE!
Ahem...Zarjaz...
He's creator owned, I'm afraid.
I know im in a *serious* minority here, but i'll always stand by Purgatory (and Morrison's Inferno).
I don't think of them as canon Dredd stories, but the pure hollywood tone of the writing, plus some of Carlos' greatest Dredd artwork, works as a perfect antidote to the Dredd movie, IMHO.
(I do agree that all his other Dredd's stank though!)
And count another vote for the return of Big Dave!
Didn't realise RAC...shame.
Doesn't mean he couldn't resurrect the character for another publisher and considering the flack it took when it was printed in 2000ad, that's probably a good thing.
I liked Inferno too; not so much Purgatory. Here's a pleasant little anecdote to show how much Purgatory stretched credibility.
A co-worker of mine worked in a metal foundry in the States, where a huge vat of melted iron was being lifted by a crane. The crane jerked and spilt a huge blob of metal on some poor chap. By the time it splashed to the ground there was literally nothing there any more. The chap was vapourised.
And there's Governer Kurtz crawling out of a lake of melted iron with a meathook in his back.
Anyway, what exactly did Mark Millar say about 2000ad when he slagged it off?
I could have done without reading that anecdote. All the same, Miller is hardly to blame for coming up with that kind of howler - the movie Krull did something vaguely similar back in the 1980s, but with molten rock that didn't melt a chap's arm when he plunged it into a river of lava to grab a fancy ninja super-shuriken. I'm no scientist, but I have a vague feeling that rock melts at a higher temperature than metal. Also, despite being about five when I first saw that movie, I remember thinking "how can he even get that close to lava without burning?" - and thus my inner nerd was born.
I've been having a quiet night in with my weekly comics pickup, and Miller's 1985 is good fun - especially so if you've never seen (or heard the basic premise of) the film Monster Squad. I thought about halfway through "The Hulk's gonna show up like Frankenstein's Monster did in Monster Squad, and the kids who are really into comics will find him."
I was not wrong.
Still, at least he's moved on from The Hills Have Eyes and the movies of John Carpenter to more kid-friendly sources of inspiration. They're doing this year's Marvel crossover without Miller and it's been rather dull thus far. I preferred the jet-plane surfing of Civil War that was mentioned above - that's entertainment.
I know this is sacrilege, but I liked Millar's take on The Spider in the 2000AD Action Special.
It wasn't The Spider as it should be done, I know, but I thought it was a good, creepy story.
- Trout
'I know this is sacrilege, but I liked Millar's take on The Spider in the 2000AD Action Special. '
Yep, me too. That said, i never read it the original one.