2000 AD Online Forum

Okay, I'm new here and I don't want to make everyone hate me on my first day but I figured, start as you mean to go on and get it out in the open. I hate Pat Mills. Not personally you understand, I don't know the man, but I find his work offensive. Not offensive in that I disagree with his politics or beliefs, just offensively bad. Badly concieved, bady plotted and above all badly written.
    Now having said that I'm not proposing he be banished from the comic never to return, although I wouldn't lose any sleep if it happened. No, I'm a firm believer in "to each his own" and "it takes all sorts". All I'm suggesting is that if he was encouraged to speed up his tales slightly and cut out the interminable flashbacks and splash pages it might not be necessary for his work to appear in every single Prog. As I said, I'm new to the forums- and the internet itself for that matter- but even a cursory glance at the input page tells us that Pat Mills divides the readership like no other writer so I surely can't be the only person who sees the logic in this.
    Anyway, I've said my piece. Please don't hate me.

You hate someone else, but you don't want anybody hating you?

Well that's just hypocritical, even if you do have a point.

You know..I started to pen a serious reply..then thought..Life's too short.

wow, even Peterwolf did more than 3 posts before trying to piss people off. Im no big fan of Pats recent work but at least I word my dislike in a way that gives a reason.

I think Pat Mills is gorgeous.

Me too, I don't understand 'Pat' hating... without him, none of us would be here.

He's not just gorgeous, he's the Sexiest Man Alive. And he created 2000AD and I love him.

I had octuplets for him.

I just want his hair, circa 1980.  Lordy, those blond curls would look good atop my wrinkled brow.

Faplad, no-one's saying we can't have a debate about Mills' recent output (sometimes it seems we do little else), but just re-read this:

QuoteI hate Pat Mills. Not personally you understand, I don't know the man, but I find his work offensive. Not offensive in that I disagree with his politics or beliefs, just offensively bad. Badly concieved, bady plotted and above all badly written.

Does this sound like a well-worded starting point for a topic on the official forum of the comic the guy in question created?  I think you might be getting off on the wrong foot here.

I'm not his greatest fan but he has a body of work and a contribution to 2000ad that makes sweeping statements like those posted just seem ludicrous. The podcast that someone (Marbles?) posted recently where Pat gave a talk at the Imperial War Museum gave me new respect for him also. A clear and passionate orator whose knowledge was detailed and impressive.

Quote from: "TordelBack"I just want his hair, circa 1980.  Lordy, those blond curls would look good atop my wrinkled brow.

I preferred Wagner's dark pelt.

I seem to have hit a nerve. Sorry. To clarify though, I never dissed Pat as an editor and I am fully aware of the huge part he played in the creation and nurturing of 2000AD. I would even go so far as to say he was as good an editor as he is bad a writer. I just think that that legendary "Father of 2000AD"  stuff is trotted out all to often to excuse his more recent shoddy attempts at scripting.
   As for not giving reasons for my dislike, thats a fair point. I just didn't want to gt into a huge debate on my first day but here goes.

ABC Warriors : Characters die and come back to life for no reason that makes sense.
                       The villains use equipment called EYEPODS.
                       We are 27 books into the latest saga and all the leads have done is have a conversation were they tell each other things that the reader already knows. I could go on.

Greysuit : The hero is a total cypher.
                We're forcefed exposition in captions that in no way relate to the artwork
                 The villains are a kiddie fiddler and a man who shags sheep. We know this because Pat  tells us so every second page. I could go on.

Defoe :  The lead characters spend vast portions of the tory giving the reader History lessons thinly disguised as some of the clunkiest dialogue I think I've ever heard and I've seen every episode of Smallville.
           Pats much vaunted research, which he forces down our throat one minute - see prev. point - doesn't stop him making glaring historical errors the next minute. I could go on.

You misunderstand me if you think I was saying leave him alone because he created 2000AD. I love most of his current work, like any writer he has his ups and downs, but Defoe in particular is one of my favourite thrills du jour. And Charley's War is one of the greatest comics in the history of the medium.
He is a divisive writer, and believe it or not we've had this conversation once or twice on this board. Clearly you dislike him and nothing anyone says will change that, but did you really just join up to slag stuff off? 2000AD is quite good sometimes.
Welcome to the board by the way.

Quote from: "faplad"I could go on.

Probably best not.

At the risk of sounding like I'm backpedalling - I'm not - I actually enjoyed Charlies War. It was thought provoking, provocative and very obviously based on a ubject close to Pat Mills heart. It was one of the standout strips in the old reprint section of the Meg - I was too young to read it first time around. However I don't think one great story make a great writer. As to changing my mind, you're right up to a point. No-one will convince me that any of his recent stuff is any good but I go into every new script with an open mind and hope one day to hacve my mind changed by Pat himself. I just don't think - and this was my original point -that there should be so many of those new scripts each year.

As for joining just to slag stuff off, thats not the case at all. I joined out of a genuine love of all things Thargian and a desire to take part in that in some way. There are a lot of series I don't like but far more  that I do and I hope to have many more, hopefully not so controversial , nights in front of my screen chatting with fellow fans. I'm sorry if I gave the wrong idea.

He won the Ultimatw Not-Wagner Tournament donchaknow.

Hmm.. before I replied to Faplad's original post I seem to have skimmed past the part which called Pat's stuff "offensive", (thrice no less), which seems a hell of a strong word to be using about anyone's work in that context. If I felt that strongly about something I wouldn't bother reading it in the first place.

I have one main gripe with Pat Mills that i will not expand upon so dont even ask.

Just concentrating one one strip in particular that is Defoe which i like there were a few historical innacuracies or errors that i have noticed but they were only trivial but because i dont like to nitpick very much [not when i am reading strips anyway as i do enough of that elsewhere and i like to switch off from it] i had the attitude that they didnt really matter.Just the fact that he seems to be the only writer who writes scripts in historical settings is enough for myself.

He started the comic and is still very much involved.

Enough said.

Yeah, there actually weren't that many undead around in London in the 17th century.

Quote from: "M.I.K."Yeah, there actually weren't that many undead around in London in the 17th century.

how do you know?

Quote from: "peterwolf"Just concentrating one one strip in particular that is Defoe which i like there were a few historical innacuracies or errors

The fact that he's got zombies and flying vizards running around means that all bets are off when it comes to "historical innacuracies" - he's set up the world so any deviations from our established knowledge could be entirely deliberate. To say otherwise would be a bit like the misguided reader who wrote in to Tharg to point out that the Americans nuked Japan rather than Germany as shown in the new strip 'Zenith'.

Quote from: "garageman"how do you know?

Us werewolves killed 'em all.

Quote from: "M.I.K."Yeah, there actually weren't that many undead around in London in the 17th century.

Thats not what i meant and if it was it could hardly be described as trivial.

Quotea bit like the misguided reader who wrote in to Tharg to point out that the Americans nuked Japan rather than Germany as shown in the new strip 'Zenith'.

Wasn´t me. But i did think for an embarrassingly long time that Berlin had been a-bombed.

Faplad's last three paragraphs are a better start.  There's stuff in there to discuss, unlike statements about work being 'offensive' and 'shoddy attempts at scripting'.  Probably best to think of this place as a pub, where people are only to happy to whinge and nitpick about almost any aspect of the beer, decor, service, toilets or each other, but probably wouldn't take too kindly to you walking in the door and announcing loudly that the barman is a tw*t.

In the immortal words of Wil Wheaton, don't be a dick.

Quote from: "kevlev"Me too, I don't understand 'Pat' hating... without him, none of us would be here.

What?? Pat Mills is my Dad???  

Quote from: "House of Usher"What?? Pat Mills is my Dad???  

I see him as more of a matriarch of the comic. He gave birth to it, nurtured it, and helped shape it in its formative years. Now it's the '30 something' child that's happy to stay at home.

I reckon John Wagner is the Daddy, but please feel free to disagree!

Quote from: "House of Usher"What?? Pat Mills is my Dad???  

There is something we have been meaning to tell you for quite some time ....

Is Scojo back again?

M@

Bah! That image of the 'Pat Mills Sings!' album has vanished from the internets.

Wow, he certainly touched a nerve there, and may have been wiser to settle in first and tone down the terminology a bit, but I agree with everything Faplad says about Greysuit, ABC Warriors and Defoe. The first two are routinely slagged on this board, as was Blood of Satanus III, but I've never really understood what many of you see in Defoe. Savage wasn't bad, but most of his recent output has been extremely disappointing.

He did write some truly amazing stuff  at one time though, and as you say, created the whole shebang, but it seems no 'Tharg' is able to say NO to him because of this. However, if four pages of each Prog were to be rechristened "Pat's Corner" in perpetuity, giving free vent to any old ramblings he fancies, without thought for plot or storytelling; then I don't think I'd begrudge it him, however rubbish and nonsensical it was. He's earned it!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It would be 'nice' that when newbies join the board they introduce themselves first rather than just throw themselves to the wolves. I mean would you go over to a group of complete strangers at a comicon and start ramming your opinion into them (ooer), insulting a talented writer with some ill thought out ramblings and hope for a reasonable response? No.

QuoteI mean would you go over to a group of complete strangers at a comicon and start ramming your opinion into them (ooer), insulting a talented writer with some ill thought out ramblings and hope for a reasonable response? No.

Well... I have seen that sort of thing happen, actually!

LOL

Me too, but only on the Saturday night and only after a few sherbets... actually saying that I did see a fight breakout once in a signing queue in Manchester...

Each to their own on Defoe, M. Danton, but I don't recall many examples of Faplad's assertion that "The lead characters spend vast portions of the tory giving the reader History lessons...".  In fact, I find Defoe refreshingly short on historical spoon-feeding - unless Bendigo, Vizards, and the terrible events of '666 are aspects of history I've completely missed.  There's plenty of clunky dialogue (although I find it works better in faux-olde-Englishe than in the contemporary or futuristic strips), but Mills has always been heavy on the clunky dialogue.  Eddie Campbell he ain't.

While I sympathise with the idea that he gets too much slack from Tharg, Mills has always been a great man for throwing lots of crazy stuff at a canvas and seeing what sticks - keeping him on a tight editorial rein would curb his particular genius for piling on the crazy until something really works.  Of his current output, I think Defoe is a prime example of his particular brand of adapting/mashing sources and making them work in 2000AD, and one of the best new strips in a while.  Much of Savage has been excellent (the last 'book' less so), one of the best revivals of an early character in the comic's history.  I've enjoyed ABC Warriors since they got back to Mars, and it really is no sillier than it was when it started, and a great deal less so than during the Khaos years.  

It's not all good.  Greysuit really isn't my thing, but the art is nice.  Recent Mills on Dredd is a waste of both character and creator - despite their shared past, they don't work well together any more.  As long as its only 5 or 6 pages a week, and those pages aren't Dredd, I'm happy to see Mills in the Prog no matter what he's doing.

Well it sems I've upset a lot of people with my first atempt at posting but it seems to be dying down now (fingers crossed).
One thing that came up though was that I came out of nowhere without properly introducing myself and it's a fair point so here goes.

I started reading during Wilderlands and except for a brief stint where the money ran out I've been here ever since. I read every Prog but pick and choose Megs - harder since the bagging - and consider the state of the comic much better than when I started.

I think that Wagner, Abnett, Rennie and Morrisson have written some of the best stuff of recent years but I think Morrison is very variable. Dante is fantastic but I just don't get the apeal of Shakara and his Dreddworld stuff leaves a lot to be desired but fair play to the man, it's improving.
Carlos Ezquerra and John Burns are my favourite artists but the traditionalist in me finds the likes of Carl Critchlow and other more experimental artists hard to like, but that's just me.

Outside of 2000ad my favourite comics are Sandman, Preacher and Walking Dead. All big names I know but I tend not to read massive amounts of comics so I only really pick something up if lots of people rave about it.
Anyway, thats me.

Merf, I've had my bad times reading some Pat Mills, and now and then expressed such an opinion on the boards (although my posts ratio on-topic:off-topic must be one of the lowest on the board), so I can understand your issues, Faplad, but I'd pick my moments were I you.

Why not start by telling us something you love? Like your favourite biscuit or something.

I'm personally a big Pat Mills fan. He's written some of the best thrills to grace 2000ad's pages. He's also written some absolute goof of course but given the amount he has written for the comic that's bound to happen. Sometimes I feel his political leanings show through too much, leaving him seem a bit monotoned, even if I often agree with him.

Of his new stuff I really like Savage and Greysuits and ABC Warriors, his Dredd I find a bit weak compared to the rest of the writers working on the strip recently and Dafoe I really don't get on with at all. All that said I'm very glad he's still working for the comic adding his distinctive voice to the choir

I love Pat.

I'm by no means blind to his faults, and can see all too well why other people might dislike him, but he's the only current writer whose work I'm always genuinely excited by.

He has the good grace to make even his less succsessful stories mad as a box of badgers - Greysuit's pretty dull at times, granted, but it's also pretty batshit crazy, whereas, say, Sin-Dex is merely dull. Even the Pat-haters get excited by him, working themlsevs into a fever-pitch of rage. The one reaction you can never have to Pat Mills is 'Meh' and if that's not a reason to keep him around, well...

Fave biccie has to be bourbons - dull but true - although watching the waistline at the mnute so they're a bt of a no-no. Only eat them dumked in coffee though, it's the only way

QuoteThe one reaction you can never have to Pat Mills is 'Meh' and if that's not a reason to keep him around, well...

Beautifully put.

Yer bourbon is a classic, alright.  Another of the great revolutionary biscuits of Italy!

I've been guilty often enough of slagging creators, especially Pat Mills, but I agree the first post on this thread is very unfair on him. I think it's a very good policy to critique the work, as diplomatically as possible, and avoid making comments about people.

I consider some of his early work very special indeed - particularly the Robusters story with Charlie the robot - as among my all-time favourites.
Since then, he's produced good and bad, in my opinion. I hated Blood of Satanus III, in particular, as I said on this board.

In terms of his recent work, I'm finding Greysuit hard to get into, probably because the main character's lacking in human qualities. I expect that's a symptom of the type of story it is.
But I really love Defoe. It's tons of fun and full of great ideas.

I suspect a few years ago I wouldn't have missed him if he stopped writing for 2000AD, but these days I'm very glad he's still around.

- Trout

In the interest of fairness I've been searching my memory for a Pat story - other than Charlies War that I enjoyed and I've got one. When I first started reading the Prog there were a couple of Finn stories. Didn't like the short chicken farm one which had all the elements that get me irate at Pats work but the big epic about the lizard dudes and the fight on the moon and Finn slaughtering loads of coppers was actually pretty good. Of course I was young at the time and my memory may be fuzzy. With my luck I've probably picked the one Pat story that everyone else agrees is shit and lost what little credibility I might have had left.

If I can just give the old tinfoil hat an airing I reckon this is Pat fishing for compliments.

Honest I'm not and just to prove it;

Andy Diggle is a top bloke

See

Quote from: "faplad"Honest I'm not and just to prove it;

Andy Diggle is a top bloke

See

Da Bish wasn't mentioned. You've proved nothing.

Gordon Rennie writes a mean Satanus

Oh, and the war in the East is based on humanitarian goals and has nothing to do with the price of oil

Oh crap, it's the Anti-Mills!!

Somebody get rid of him before he destroys all that we hold dear!

Its easy to criticize. Personally i hate greysuit, cant stand it. but i love abc's, savage and im very sorry but Titus Defoe is a complete fucking badass! Defoe is probably the series im looking forward to most in 09 (unless kingdom pops in at some point). To come onto this site and go on and on about how much you hate pat mills but say you dont want people to hate you? like i said its easy to criticize, if you think you can do better then give it a go. The day Pat Mills leaves 2000ad ill have one less reason to pick it up.

Quote from: "kevlev"Me too, I don't understand 'Pat' hating... without him, none of us would be here.

Are you saying that he's actually our creator? cus if that's true then the pope's gunna be pissed!

Quote from: "Bear-pit"

Quote from: "kevlev"Me too, I don't understand 'Pat' hating... without him, none of us would be here.

Are you saying that he's actually our creator? cus if that's true then the pope's gunna be pissed!

Pat Mills' gonna give that Nazi son of a bitch some real intervention.

Mills was writing some of my favourite thrills when I first started reading 2000 AD properly in the upper double digits (which helped get me hooked for life) and decades later he can still pull it out of the bag - that last series of Defoe was great (top marks should go to Tharg for getting Leigh Gallagher on art duties) and ended with the promise of the craziness being taken up another notch in the third series. Not bad for any writer

Quote from: "TordelBack"I just want his hair, circa 1980.  Lordy, those blond curls would look good atop my wrinkled brow.

Isn't there a touch of red (//http://www.2000ad.org/images/droid/patm.jpg) in the Curls?

Quote from: "garageman"I preferred Wagner's dark pelt.

If John Wagner writes a story called "Dark Pelt" consider me first in line to read it, no matter what the subject.

Quote from: "faplad"With my luck I've probably picked the one Pat story that everyone else agrees is shit and lost what little credibility I might have had left.

Yup. Finn was an example of Mills at his worst. Every character was utterly vile. What story there was, was just an excuse for him to express his personal prejudices.

Regards

Robin

I was young. There was violence. What can I say? I'm all growed up now.

Quote from: "Robin Low"

Quote from: "faplad"With my luck I've probably picked the one Pat story that everyone else agrees is shit and lost what little credibility I might have had left.

Yup. Finn was an example of Mills at his worst. Every character was utterly vile. What story there was, was just an excuse for him to express his personal prejudices.

Regards

Robin

I think you rate Finn too highly. I mean who uses a P90, c'mon.

Finn is one of the things that turned me off 2000AD in the '90s.  I hated everything about the strip, all the more because it was patently ridiculous to spin-off this wiccan/Ickey nonsense from the too-worthy seriousness of Third World War.  From one grim extreme to another.

Quote from: "TordelBack"Finn is one of the things that turned me off 2000AD in the '90s.  I hated everything about the strip, all the more because it was patently ridiculous to spin-off this wiccan/Ickey nonsense from the too-worthy seriousness of Third World War.  From one grim extreme to another.

I should think most Wiccans would actually be massively insulted by any connection between the ideas in Finn and what they believe in and actually get up to. I'm sure there are few militant eco-warrior types around the edges, and I might even go so far as to call some of them nuts, but I doubt many are murderous hate-filled bastards like Finn and the priestess who used him.

The character of Paul/Finn seemed to be a culmination of Mills' dislike of heroes. He'd successful destroyed all that was positive in his other characters such as Nemesis, Marshal Law and Hammerstein, and so along comes Finn with no redeeming features to begin with. Saved him some time, but left us with a story utterly devoid of a soul.

Regards

Robin

Interesting idea.  Unfortunately I can't remember enough about the character to agree or disagree - blind hate has erased the details!  Had Mills assassinated Hammerstein by then?  I thought that came a bit later - he was still quite an admirable character at the very start of Khronicles of Khaos (which was just before Finn, right?).  And was Nemesis ever anyway nice?

I was a huge fan of Crisis, cos around the turn of the nineties I was a lefty graduate living in a squat in Manchester and beginning to discover that there were lots of other great comics out there besides my old stalwart 2000ad (thanks largely to a mate with  HUGE collection of Swamp Thing, Miracleman, Nexus, Hate etc), so Crisis and Deadline really spoke to me, and always remind me of those times.

I also remember being very VERY disappointed with Finn in 2000ad - it just didn't have the same feel as Third World War, which may have been didactic, but was an exciting and innovative story. Finn just got too silly and obvious and I think I've erased all other details about it from my memory, except that I didn't rate it.

Ignoring for a second my apparent terrible taste in Thrills, I have a question. I've never read Third World War as 2000ad was for many years my only comic so forgive my ignorance but is Finn a proper spin off of that series or are you simply speaking of thematic links. I ask because I'd always sort of assumed that it was supposed to be some kind of latter day Slaine reincarnation. I realise I'm probably digging myself in even deeper here but you don't find out if you don't ask.

By the way, is Third World War available in collected form? Maybe reading some of Pats non-2000ad stuff might give me a fresh perspective on him. If not, what else might you all recommend?

I always thought Finn was supposed to be the same character from TWW, but I think it was more of a "reboot" than a straight sequel - TWW had a distinct near-future world story, but this was largely jettisoned  in Finn, I think - wasn't Finn set in a more recognisable present? As I said, my memories of early nineties thrills are a bit..um..patchy  

Quote from: "TordelBack"Interesting idea.  Unfortunately I can't remember enough about the character to agree or disagree - blind hate has erased the details!  Had Mills assassinated Hammerstein by then?  I thought that came a bit later - he was still quite an admirable character at the very start of Khronicles of Khaos (which was just before Finn, right?).  And was Nemesis ever anyway nice?

In all honesty, I admit that I'm talking about a general feeling I have rather than a clearly defined progression, so take it all with a hefty pinch of salt.

As for Nemesis, I do think there was a time when he was apparently motivated by a desire protect and save humans and aliens from Torquemada's evil. After his wife and (as far as he knew) child were killed, he understandably got a bit uptight, but I suppose it's in Purity's Story when we discoved he's only been playing games with Torquemada for his own amusement. Unsurprisingly, that's when the series really goes tits up.

Regards

Robin

I saw Finn as a straight sequel.

I really liked Third World War (largely thanks to Carlos' art and the fantastic single-character covers). I did notice the preachiness of it, but it had enough of a story to be properly exciting. Also, he was raising issues which were relevant at the time, and weren't... contaminated by irrelevant obsessions, like dark matter or magic. Or even Magick.

By the time Finn was in the prog, however, I'd started to miss issues. Eventually that developed into several years of not collecting 2000AD. I don't particularly remember Finn from that time, but I strongly suspect it was part of the reason I gave up.

I now own every issue (except one) from the 90s and regard Finn as, by turns, dull and creepy. There are all these predictable, macho fights, clumsy betrayals of the sort Pat seems to stick in everywhere, and soulless casual sex. The prog would have been better off without it, I think.

But it was the 90s, and all sorts of inappropriate stories were appearing as 2000AD tried to work out what it should be. Happily, it now knows - and it includes some good stuff from Pat Mills.

- Trout

Quote from: "faplad"Ignoring for a second my apparent terrible taste in Thrills, I have a question. I've never read Third World War as 2000ad was for many years my only comic so forgive my ignorance but is Finn a proper spin off of that series or are you simply speaking of thematic links. I ask because I'd always sort of assumed that it was supposed to be some kind of latter day Slaine reincarnation. I realise I'm probably digging myself in even deeper here but you don't find out if you don't ask.

Finn is the same Paul from Third World War, and he was a callous murdering bastard in that too. What was behind the transition from political propaganda to David Icke mentalism, I really don't know. The whole Finn-Slaine reincarnation thing seems to be a minor meme with no basis in either series that I'm aware of - can anyone remember if it was a letter in 2000AD that started it?

QuoteBy the way, is Third World War available in collected form? Maybe reading some of Pats non-2000ad stuff might give me a fresh perspective on him. If not, what else might you all recommend?

I think some Third World War stuff was collected in a series of thin glossy reprints, but that was years ago.

What would I recommend by Pat Mills? Well...

Judge Dredd: The Cursed Earth
The Rise and Fall of Ro-Jaws and Hammerstein (in the complete Ro-Busters)
Nemesis the Warlock (loses its way at the end, but the vast majority is excellent)
ABC Warriors: the original series and the Black Hole Mission (maybe some of the more recent stuff after the return to Mars)
Marshal law: Fear and Loathing (this is the first series; very little that follows is worth the effort)
Slaine (up to and including The Horned God, then ignoring everything else until the Books of Invasions)
Savage (surprisingly good under the circumstances)

With the exception of Marshal Law, I've not read any of his non-2000AD work.

Regards

Robin

New Statesmen was reprinted in a series of prestige format comics, I think they did Third World War like that too, IIRC.

Quote from: "faplad"Maybe reading some of Pats non-2000ad stuff might give me a fresh perspective on him. If not, what else might you all recommend?

Without a shadow of a doubt the best non 2000ad Mills stuff (and maybe his best work over all) is Charley's War. Its a work of genius with glorious art and while it has much to say politically it does do so as dogmatically as some of his later work and always remains a thrilling read. Readily available today in nice hardbacked chunks which are well worth the cost, even if some of the reproduction is poor.

I should clarify that I'm not lumping TWW in with Finn.  I liked a lot of stuff about Third World War, and while I loved Carlos' art and design in the opening run, I actually rate the later more-serious stuff more highly.  If Pat in his heavy-handed preachy way was trying to engage us in real-world issues, he succeeded in my case - I found myself interested in and reading more about Kenya and the Mau Mau, fair trade and globalisation, Haile Selassie and Ethiopia, and so on.  Unfortunately, Crisis itself was way too expensive for my pocket, and by the time True Faith was running I had lost interest in the rest of the comic, and dropped it (thus missing for all time The New Adventures of Hitler).

Quote from: "M.I.K."

Quote from: "garageman"how do you know?

Us werewolves killed 'em all.

complete and utter b.s. EVERYONE knows  "you cannot  kill what doess not live!

fadlad ,the main bone of contention was the whole "blood of satanus 2 and 3 " thing that some of us vanilla fans found a bit hard to swallow...pat mills in general is a wide and varied creature i like defoe and greysuit but not abc warriors.


..."bone" and "hard to swallow" jokes please!!!

...then again,garage man has answered that one already...heh,heh.

I'll check out Martial Law next book run and maybe Charlies War too, which Is actually the only Mills story to have made a realy lasting POSITIVE impression on me. I've actually considered that in the past but the collections, while undeniabley very attractive are also correspondingly expensive. In light of the fact that I've already read much of the early suff in the Meg I've stayed away. Are they worth the expense?

Yes....They are.

Defoe is classic 2000A - great individualistic art style, mass violence, silly supporting characters, bonkers dialogue, bounding along at 1000mph. If it said 'Script: Robbie Morrison' you'd have it pinned as Dante1799 (minus the sex granted).

Appreciation of any one strip must come from your like / dislike of both the writer and the artist - block 'hating' of an author who NOBODY can deny has written some fantastic work is simply 'odd'. I can think of Mills things I've not been hugely taken with recently and stuff I've thought was THRILLPOWER personified... but the same with Morrison, Abnett, Ewing, Grant and yes.. even Wagner (been while mind). I've not liked the work of Lee so far but am more than willing to give his forthcoming strips a go.

Quote from: "Robin Low"

Quote from: "faplad"Ignoring for a second my apparent terrible taste in Thrills, I have a question. I've never read Third World War as 2000ad was for many years my only comic so forgive my ignorance but is Finn a proper spin off of that series or are you simply speaking of thematic links. I ask because I'd always sort of assumed that it was supposed to be some kind of latter day Slaine reincarnation. I realise I'm probably digging myself in even deeper here but you don't find out if you don't ask.

Finn is the same Paul from Third World War, and he was a callous murdering bastard in that too. What was behind the transition from political propaganda to David Icke mentalism, I really don't know. The whole Finn-Slaine reincarnation thing seems to be a minor meme with no basis in either series that I'm aware of - can anyone remember if it was a letter in 2000AD that started it?

I've only ever read the first couple of Finn stories. While it's never explicitly said, the fact that the characters and story share so much of the same worldview and preoccupations makes it seem that, for the writer at least, Finn was merely Slaine transplanted into the modern day. Perhaps some sort of Eternal Champion type framing would've made it more enjoyable, but didn't he basically do that with Slaine's travels through history.

Quote from: "BPP"Defoe is classic 2000A - great individualistic art style, mass violence, silly supporting characters, bonkers dialogue, bounding along at 1000mph.

Agree. Love it.

QuoteThe whole Finn-Slaine reincarnation thing seems to be a minor meme with no basis in either series that I'm aware of - can anyone remember if it was a letter in 2000AD that started it?

The only possible in-story link (apart from uncouth-warrior-works-for-well-endowed-magical-lady-to-battle-ancient-aliens-and-their-twisted-human-lackeys) is the bit in Time Killer when another of Pat's Brother Brotors says of Slaine's candidacy for a temporal assassin "...He lacks the noble brow of a great hero... an Arthur... or a Finn!".  Now obviously we're supposed to think Brotor means Finn McCool/Fionn mac Cumhaill, but why not another 'hero' in another time?  Apart from the fact that's it's total bobbins, I mean.

Quote from: "TordelBack"The only possible in-story link (apart from uncouth-warrior-works-for-well-endowed-magical-lady-to-battle-ancient-aliens-and-their-twisted-human-lackeys) is the bit in Time Killer when another of Pat's Brother Brotors says of Slaine's candidacy for a temporal assassin "...He lacks the noble brow of a great hero... an Arthur... or a Finn!".  Now obviously we're supposed to think Brotor means Finn McCool/Fionn mac Cumhaill, but why not another 'hero' in another time?  Apart from the fact that's it's total bobbins, I mean.

This raises the alarmingly possibility that Phil Cool is some kind of Eternal Champion.

Or not.

Regards

Robin

QuoteWhile it's never explicitly said, the fact that the characters and story share so much of the same worldview and preoccupations makes it seem that, for the writer at least, Finn was merely Slaine transplanted into the modern day. Perhaps some sort of Eternal Champion type framing would've made it more enjoyable, but didn't he basically do that with Slaine's travels through history

QuoteYeah, that was my thinking at the time and thinking about it, given Pats propensity for linking all his stuff together the thory still holds water

Almost forgot, made a book run today - always feels good to splurge on a pay weekend - and on the recomendation of Rufus I took a chance on the first Charlies War hardback. Thanks for the push Rufus, it was well worth it and I'll definitely be looking into getting the following volumes. The bonus  material did raise a point in my mind though. Pat was obviously extremely passionate about the subject matter and as a result managed to produce a timeless classic. Without wanting to rehash the argument at the top of the thread, I do think it's worth pointing out that if he slowed his output and concentrated on stuff that he can put his soul into, he may possibly win over some of the naysayers.

Oh, Forbidden Planet had every Preacher collection except no. 6. Guess which one I need next. Not wanting to leave under provisioned on the Garth front I picked up War Stories Vol. 1.  Has anybody else read this yet?  Read Johanns Tiger and D-Day Dodgers on the bus ride home and all I can say is Bloody Hell! They were a bit good.

I'm really pleased to hear you enjoyed Charlie's War..It's a cracking story, with absolutely beautiful art.
    I'd also recommend picking up the collected Robusters which just came out too if you haven't read them before (or indeed, recently!).. some fantastic robo-tales by Pat Mills,esq. in there... with art by Dave Gibbons, Kevin O'Neill, and Mick McMahon.

Cheer! Ruf

Just picked Complete Ro-Busters at Hi-Ex! A great read. It's even got the Mick McMahon pages I own.

Steven.

pat mills
love or loathe
but isnt that what makes him such and enigma
he is brillant or useless,but always alway able to get debate going.

when he is good he is untouchable, when he is off his game, you wonder what he has on the editor to get the stuff printed.
but i think he is a true genuis.

he is a founding father of 2000ad. no higher level of respect needs to be noted. without him this would not be our world.

Well Pat, AND Kelvin Gosnell (It was Kelvin who originally suggested a Sci Fi Comic to IPC... and he's never been given his due.)

true - I noticed on that Johnny Hinckleton doc he was credited as "Pat Mills - creator of 2000ad" - some Stalinist revisionism going on? (he did look a lot younger than I imagined though, and no sign of straitjackets or swivelling eyeballs, which was a surprise  )

Quote from: "dandontdare"some Stalinist revisionism going on?

Doubtful—more likely TV captioning shorthand.

to be fair, I think Kelvin Gosnell has always had the credit for suggesting riding the predicted sci-fi wave of 77.  However, while Kelvin got the ball rolling in terms of the theme of the comic, Pat is undeniably the 'creator' of the comic in terms of its attitude and content.

Quote from: "Leigh Shepherd"Pat is undeniably the 'creator' of the comic in terms of its attitude and content.

Wouldn't you say Wagner and Grant deserve a share in that credit? Though Pat was clearly the prime mover, I think it's always been a team effort - Ezquerra, Bolland, Gibson, McMahon - I think they had a lot to do with shaping the 'attitude and content' too.

Ah who am I kidding. Pat WAS Tharg, end of!

Sure, Wagner and the various editors, including Kelvin himself are huge influences in the direction the comic took, but the man who wrote each and every story in prog 1 and was basically the man given the remit to launch the comic has to be seen as the 'creator' as shorthand.  My parents are my creators, but of course, I've been influenced by a lot more than them since I was born, including Pat - but I wouldnt call him my creator!

Err...Kelvin was the first Editor too, and had a hand in creating stuff.

Wasn't Pat only the editor for the first 9 issues or something like that, plus he didn't write every story in Prog 1, he rewrote other peoples stories for Prog 1.

All true, but if you are looking for a "creator" for 2000AD, then Pat stands miles ahead of any other serious contenders for the post - of course, it wasnt that simple, but its hardly Stalinist revisionism to suggest he should deserve that credit.  Kelvin suggested doing a sci-fi comic, and he steered it in those early days, but he steered it from the template Pat was paid (handsomely it seems) to set.

Sure, he didnt write and draw it all singlehandedly, but he was the one who in those early days said "this is what the comic should be", and for my money, thats enough to find it hard to begrudge using creator - after all, its all there for people who want to then delve a bit deeper into how it all came into place.

It seems to me Pat has always gone to great lengths to name the names of others involved in just about every interview Ive seen with him.  Basically, Pat was charged with "creating" the comic - sure, he didnt do that entirely solo, and he didnt hang around much after the "birth" editorially... but I can't see why people would begrudge 'creator', even with it being a fairly vague and admittedly rough description of the more complex reality.  Sanders wanted a sci-fi comic, and Pat Mills delivered it - Personally, I dont think early 2000AD is a fully formed beast - it takes a huge stack of writers and artists who appear well after the launch to become what it is.  But Pat did set it all rolling, and even if the direction swerved a long way from where he started it rolling, he was the one who gave it that first push.  What would be a better term for Pats involvement in setting up the comic?

Now everyone can show their appreciation for Pat in the Ultimate Mills Tournament.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=24260 (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=24260)

Indeed, as I said- drunkenly and several times- during the weekend at HiEx, like his work on hated it- none of us would be here without him.

Too right yer lordship. Pat Mills has written some of my all time favourite stories. Grud knows how much of my life has been spent reading his work and I wouldn't change him for the world. Greysuit however will be deleted from my buffers as soon as it finishes.

I quite like Greysuit

-Bouwel-

Quote from: "Bouwel"I quite like Greysuit

-Bouwel-

Yeah I enjoy it too and often wonder why it gets the flack it does. Sometimes its all a bit meladramatic in a "Oh my gosh look how badly he broke his jawwwww YUCK" kind of way but still a fun read. Better than Defoe by a country mile. Still each to their own.

I liked Finn!!! so much so that I wish they would release a graphic novel of all the collected stories.
Does anyone know if there are any future plans to do this?

QuoteI quite like Greysuit

I would like to add 'Up until prog # 1622'.
What the hell happened with the Omega man? He says 'Ghostbusters' and suddenly he's all friendly and duffs up the minister? Did I miss something there...what the hell happened??

-Bouwel-
(I think I used up my quota of question marks for the night there)

What happened was it was a Pat Mills script. Can you really be surprised.

Still loving Charley though. On book three now. Top stuff, even if his commentary is becoming inceasingly self congratulatory aand egotistical.