2000 AD Online Forum

Hello Tharg, hello members of the 2000AD online community.
I'm 42, have been reading 2000AD since I was 12, I am a loyal subscriber, my wife and kids all read and love 2000AD. So this criticism comes from the heart and is intended to be helpful:

There are now 3 stories (Defoe, Red Seas, Nikolai Dante) which regularly feature flintlock muskets or variations of, and none of the artists are getting the mechanism quite right.

As a Napoleonic re-enactor I'm regularly firing a Brown Bess and it's French counterpart, the Charleville. The most common mistake the artists seem to make is in the flint itself. It is either completely absent (see attached Defoe cover of prog. 1640 where Damned(?) frizen is open and he has no flint in the jaws) or is a shapeless blob deep within the jaws of the hammer as appeared in a recent Red Seas.



I don't suppose it makes much difference to most readers but I'm sure the artists would like to get it right, and are presumably working from web images from museums which would not necessarily display guns with flints in.

I've put a short video on Youtube to show how the mechanism actually works.
I've also got some still pictures to show the three positions the hammer can be in relation to the frizzen, but I've got nowhere to upload them to except Facebooks so I don't know how to link them.

This is the You tube link. And yes, the flint falls out. But I couldn't be bothered to get my 11 year old daughter to re-film it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXpLk6ihflo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXpLk6ihflo)

Hope this helps. Keep up the good work.

Richard Delingpole
Worcester

Excellent first post!
Welcome to the board!

Wotcha.

This is exactly the kind of anorak wearing, nit picking, attention to detail and pedantry which will make you friends quickly round these parts.

Welcome.

P.S. I hope the kids were skipping over Cradlegrave!

Not just the post but the video added as well. Like it when you don't just come up with a problem but provide the solution as well.

Hang around its fun here, even if most of us don't have guns (I hope at least!)

Delingpole, why fight it.  It's obvious you belong here, with us. Forever.

And if you make us all feel a little less insecure about our own painful obsessions and their pedantic expression on this board, so much the better.  Welcome, but don't get me started on the nautical disaster that is Red Seas.  When the captain can't tell a sheet from a sail....

Hello and welcome!

-Bouwel-

(Speciality: Errors in manned spaceflight)

What a fabulous first post.

Nice bit of very admirable pedantry! Good for you.

Also, your punctuation is quite good, so you are safe from my apostrophe obession and terrible fishy wrath.

Welcome!

- Trout

Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 24 July, 2009, 04:19:41 PM
What a fabulous first post.

Indeed. A possible contender for the Best First Post Prize. Anyone wanting to beat it is going to have to pull something special out of the bag (and probably post it in the "show us your undies" thread).

Although it is worth pointing out that Defoe contains anachronistic technologies, mad sciences and wild magicks, so has an awful lot of wiggle room in these matters.

Quote...so has an awful lot of wiggle room in these matters.

I think invisible flints are more in the bodyswerve line. 

Quote from: Emperor on 24 July, 2009, 08:03:30 PM

Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 24 July, 2009, 04:19:41 PM
What a fabulous first post.

Although it is worth pointing out that Defoe contains anachronistic technologies, mad sciences and wild magicks, so has an awful lot of wiggle room in these matters.

And also that Nikolai Dante is set in the 27th century, so while the weaponry may look like flintlocks, this is more of a stylistic conceit than an accurate representation of the technology.

Great video though, an excellent demo of how the firing mechanism of a flintlock actually works.

Quote from: TordelBack on 24 July, 2009, 08:45:19 PM

Quote...so has an awful lot of wiggle room in these matters.

I think invisible flints are more in the bodyswerve line.

Well yes it is a cop out ;) Unless they are those new aetherial flints I've been hearing so much about.  ;D

Quote from: Minkyboy on 24 July, 2009, 03:48:03 PMThis is exactly the kind of anorak wearing, nit picking, attention to detail and pedantry which will make you friends quickly round these parts.

Minkyboy's right.

And speaking of anoraks and nits, Nikolai Dante's probably not using a flintlock, although it DOES look a lot like it.  So I reckon we can let Fraser & Burns off. 

Well done sir. 

QuoteNikolai Dante's probably not using a flintlock, although it DOES look a lot like it.

This is true.  But without Mr. Delingpole to draw our attention to this issue, we might not have considered the matter any further.  And then where would we be.  That's just one of the many things that pedantry can contribute to a forum such as this.

nerdery at its finest
welcome to the greatest web site in the galaxy

Welcome to the board Richard. Excellent first post. A good point, well made.

Don't even get me started about square profile tyres on Lawmasters.

Well done Mr. Delingpole hopefully you will stick around.

Hi !

Good job that gun wasnt loaded.

Aw shucks! You guys! I knew anorakism would have one or two of you stroking your chins and nodding, but I didn't expect to be made so welcome.

Thanks a lot.

On the point of the Nikolai Dante Crazy Futuristic Flintlock type thing - I realise that it doesn't function as a C18 / C19 Flintlock, but I firmly believe that if, as an artist, you're going to use the visual references, you need to know exactly what it is you are "quoting".

I love the sound of the other quibbles you've all been having, like the square profile on the lawmaster wheels. I was always really wound up by a cutaway diagram of the early lawgiver (in an annual I think) which showed little levers along the inside of the barrel. Like that's going to help!

But thank you all for the warm welcome. I shall certainly stick around.

QuoteI was always really wound up by a cutaway diagram of the early lawgiver (in an annual I think) which showed little levers along the inside of the barrel. Like that's going to help!

Ohhh... tell us more!
And just wait until you read Commando Forces' regular destructions of every apperance by a soldier ever on any drama show or film..

I've found the very cutaway! It's worse than I remember. Just how much crap can you have down a barrel?

HOW did I never spot the (usually) square profile Lawmaster tyres before?

Idiot!  *slaps forehead*

Although frankly, especially the way the vintage artists drew it, you'd kill yourself trying to turn a corner on that thing. 

Just found this post and I love it, are we related?
This is what makes the forum so great, dedicated nit pickers who love to rip apart the minutia of everything around us.
By the way a belated welcome to the board from me.

P.S. I would have got my second shot off a lot quicker than you, as my flint would have stayed in place ;)

With that for a first post, we're expecting a high level of pedentry and at least one hissy fit, you'll fit right in here, welcome dear boy, welcome.

Hello Commando Forces and Proudhuff. (A month on I just noticed this thread had resurfaced).

I've been made to feel very welcome and it's been a steep learning curve on this site.

I've found that if you actually know what you're talking about you're okay, but if you just dislike the current Armitage storyline and artwork you've got to be prepared to be met with fierce opposition

I've learned that nothing is loved by everyone or hated by everyone and that the general level of intelligence displayed is very high.
I find the same level of anorakism on the "Flames of War" website (the brand of WWII Wargame I do) and within the better elements of re-enactment. I've always been a stickler (to quote Chief Judge Cal) and hopefully set as high standards for myself as I do for those who provide the products I buy.

Already I like this gent. Magnificent first post, sir! I confess to having no knowledge whatsoever regarding ancient weaponary (or sheets and sails, come to that)- but it was fascinating. Art droids, get yer bloody stuff right, there's always someone watching!

And splendid bumpage, to whoever threw this into my 'Active Topics' file.

Welcome to the board- have immense fun.

SBT

Ifyou want to see Flintlock this should sort you out


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX0F3S9ZG7E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX0F3S9ZG7E)

I've just realised that I used "it's" incorrectly on this post. I only went back to check when I noticed that someone had said my punctuation was quite good. And I thought "QUITE good?" and went to see why I was being damned with faint praise.

I feel a little bit sad about this slip up and intend to eat a Wispa Gold to make myself feel better.

Quote from: Delingpole on 24 July, 2009, 03:30:13 PM
Hello Tharg, hello members of the 2000AD online community.
I'm 42, have been reading 2000AD since I was 12, I am a loyal subscriber, my wife and kids all read and love 2000AD. So this criticism comes from the heart and is intended to be helpful:

There are now 3 stories (Defoe, Red Seas, Nikolai Dante) which regularly feature flintlock muskets or variations of, and none of the artists are getting the mechanism quite right.

As a Napoleonic re-enactor I'm regularly firing a Brown Bess and it's French counterpart, the Charleville. The most common mistake the artists seem to make is in the flint itself. It is either completely absent (see attached Defoe cover of prog. 1640 where Damned(?) frizen is open and he has no flint in the jaws) or is a shapeless blob deep within the jaws of the hammer as appeared in a recent Red Seas.



I don't suppose it makes much difference to most readers but I'm sure the artists would like to get it right, and are presumably working from web images from museums which would not necessarily display guns with flints in.

I've put a short video on Youtube to show how the mechanism actually works.
I've also got some still pictures to show the three positions the hammer can be in relation to the frizzen, but I've got nowhere to upload them to except Facebooks so I don't know how to link them.

This is the You tube link. And yes, the flint falls out. But I couldn't be bothered to get my 11 year old daughter to re-film it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXpLk6ihflo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXpLk6ihflo)

Hope this helps. Keep up the good work.

Richard Delingpole
Worcester

geek! (in the nicest possible way) you didnt write to the tv times once telling them off cos sharpe had the strap or something or other on the wrong shoulder are ye? welcome to the jungle my friend!

Wow! Just Wow!
Welcome

Welcome.




filip

More firearm pedantry, albeit less historical in nature.....

http://2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,7888.0.html

Quote from: Delingpole on 24 July, 2009, 03:30:13 PM

There are now 3 stories (Defoe, Red Seas, Nikolai Dante) which regularly feature flintlock muskets or variations of, and none of the artists are getting the mechanism quite right.

I just noticed this, so excuse my tardy response.

I am fully aware of the firing mechanisms of various types of musketry having built a Percussion Kentucky Rifle myself and helped build a flintlock duelling pistol back when I was a kid. I've been shooting black powder weapons since I was old enough to hold them straight, my favourite being a .577 Enfield Musket that my Dad owns,  though I tend to prefer cap and ball revolvers.

Dante's Huntsman rifle however is a rifle in name only, it is in fact an immensely complicated and powerful alien artifact that just happens to look a lot like a Flintlock Musket. Who is to fathom the ways of extra dimensional beings and why they design things to look the way they do? Maybe they just thought it looked cool?

Thanks for caring though.

Simon.

Simon Fraser, YOU ROCK! :)

And that's why I love this place.

Ive noticed that on some old weapons lazy artists draw phillips head screws on the weapons when everone knows that they werent invented to the 1930's.

Now lets get off this mundane topic of Flintlock rifles and get back to what we all want to talk about and thats how many links are in Dredd's chain.

This thread started in excellent fashion, and has now borne some sweet fruit.

Simon's reply does make me wonder whether Tharg on occasion might profitably employ slightly larger 'recap' pages setting out these sorts of fascinating nerdfacts (rather than just the plot outline) for the longer-running stories.  While I do know Dante's rifle is of extra-dimensional origin, The fact that the original version of The Romanov Dynasty GN I bought doesn't include the Huntsman origin story, and nor is it in my edition of The Great Game, means that I've always been a bit vague about it myself - and that gun does seem to be moving into a pretty critical position in the story.

QuoteNow lets get off this mundane topic of Flintlock rifles and get back to what we all want to talk about and thats how many links are in Dredd's chain.

6 or 8. Not 7.

Never 7..!

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 28 April, 2010, 10:48:28 AMNever 7..!

7

Quote from: W. R. Logan on 28 April, 2010, 12:44:30 PM

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 28 April, 2010, 10:48:28 AMNever 7..!

7

9. :D

Wow. I started this thread AGES ago because of a genuine desire to help the 2000AD artists get things right in a tiny way. I'm really happy it's been largely taken in this spirit of complete anorakdom, and I'm very proud that some of the great and the good of 2000AD have graced it with their presence. Thanks.

I've noticed on the current Red Seas that all the flintlocks are firing exactly as flintlocks should: The frizen flies open, smoke comes from the pan and smoke, fire and a bullet fly from the barrel. I just want to say it hasn't gone unnoticed. Percussion cap muskets (the next stage of development in firing mechanisms, and more associated with the American Civil War) are another question.

As for Dante's Huntsman - I do realise that this is a special case, but you can only take that so far. Surely having a flintlock style hammer that doesn't actually do anything is a little... unlikely? silly? I like to think that whatever round the Huntsman decides to fire is activated by that anachronistic hammer.

Bravo good sir.
And a fellow re-enactor to! (although I am late medieval 1400 to 1500 AD) :D

This may be a seriously stupid question, but I thought I'd ask: do muskets/flintlocks fire bullets? Meaning, would they have been called bullets - or balls or whatever? Was the term "bullet" used at the time? Thanks in advance.

Balls.

Thought so...but thanks Tordel!

Wikipedia reckons bullets, from the French 'boulette,' which means little ball. So bullets/balls interchangeably. The article even refers to ammunition hurled from a sling as bullets.

They were also called rounds. Because they were round.

Quote from: TordelBack on 14 July, 2010, 01:10:12 PM
Balls.

I see the tourettes isn't improving

T'aint.

Quote from: locustsofdeath! on 14 July, 2010, 12:59:19 PM
This may be a seriously stupid question, but I thought I'd ask: do muskets/flintlocks fire bullets? Meaning, would they have been called bullets - or balls or whatever? Was the term "bullet" used at the time? Thanks in advance.

The balls/rounds were always made of lead and usually your gun would have its own mould for casting your own ammunition out of molten lead.

I have got a late 18th cent Flintlock pistol which is a standard issue govt pistol from the Tower armoury but i have never attempted to load it and fire it.

To the Doctor Alt 8: Thanks. Were you at Tewkesbury or Kelmarsh this year? Our paths may have crossed. I was (incongruously in the case of Tewkesbury) in Napoleonic redcoat kit for both.

To locust of death: That is far from a silly question. To be honest, I don't know if they referred to the rounds as bullets during the time of flintlocks. I think it was just balls. It was musket ball, cannon ball.

The shot was indeed an often poorly cast lead ball which would come rattling out of the smooth bore of the musket or pistol. When rifling (the spiral grooves in the barrel) was introduced, most notably with the Baker Rifle used by the 95th Rifles (yes, Sharpe and his boys), the spherical ball was wrapped in a leather pad and pretty much forced down the barrel, sometimes even hammered, so it sat snugly in the grooves and came out in a reliable way. This reduced the rate of fire from up to 4 rounds a minute from a musket to as slow as one round a minute from a rifleman, but the accuracy the rifle gave the 95th enabled them to pick off French Officers at 200 yards, while the musket would be lucky to hit it's target at 50.

By the time the three-band Enfield came in, the round, I believe, was bullet-shaped and didn't require a leather jacket, but would still have been muzzle-loaded.

I've had a go at live firing all these, including a flintlock pistol, at a black powder day at a shooting range. And it was awesome. Especially the pistol.

QuoteTo the Doctor Alt 8: Thanks. Were you at Tewkesbury or Kelmarsh this year? Our paths may have crossed. I was (incongruously in the case of Tewkesbury) in Napoleonic redcoat kit for both.

Sorry Delingpole we couldn't make Tewsbury this year. We had a paid local event instead.  This turned out to be a "bleassing in disguse" when you concider what  happened to our trailler.

(partly our fault it WAS overloaded) but that sneeky pot hole did not help!)