I was wondering if this idea was ever put forward about the character of judge death. Death has been primarily portrayed as pure evil in his philosophy that always been all crime is committed by the living therefore all life must be a crime and his relentless persuit to extinguish life.
instead of dismissing it as pure evil there could be a deeper interpretation of this philosophy. i recently returned to reading 2000ad after a 14 year absence and remember the image of deadworld as a black lifeless hunk where all life had been extinguished. now amongst judge deaths many talents forgive me if i say that microbiology and sterilisation have never been one of them. i could therefore envisage that after a few decades, perhaps centuries or even millenia, deadworld would begin to flourish again. the seeds of trees, the bacteria and algae could reconquer the once dead planet reminescent of modern pictures of the towns around chernobyl becoming forests in carparks and apartment blocks or the image of the first plant growing from the black volcanoic rock of Surtsey off Iceland in the 70s.
even small insects could have excaped the apocalyse. the one thing that could be missing would be the sentient free will holding humans.
we could therefore think of the dark judges as cartesians. like descartes they could regard all 'lower' life as merely fleshy machines, with no free will and therefore no sin or virtue. or even like rouseau who believed that man in the state of nature is naturally virtuous, it is only when they interact in a society that they become corrupted. death himself being the lone person who would wander without sin in his own natural enviroment. destroy all life so that it can start again without crime. im reminded also of a speach by one of the officers in 28 days later about world without man would be a return to normality.
i would not want death to be painted as some sort of supernatural eco terrorist, i believe pat mills might sue. but the image of judge death walking in an abundant rainforest in the distant future saying 'there! i was right' seems appealing to me and may add an philosphical zero to the equation.
what do others think? has this come up before and been dismissed as stupid?
I think he values all sentient life as a sin. I can't imagine he's that worried about trees, plants, insects etc nor would he envisage a time when life - sentient or otherwise - would return to Deadworld.
Quotewe could therefore think of the dark judges as cartesians. like descartes they could regard all 'lower' life as merely fleshy machines, with no free will and therefore no sin or virtue. or even like rouseau who believed that man in the state of nature is naturally virtuous, it is only when they interact in a society that they become corrupted. death himself being the lone person who would wander without sin in his own natural enviroment. destroy all life so that it can start again without crime. im reminded also of a speach by one of the officers in 28 days later about world without man would be a return to normality.
Death knew he was a sinner that's why he became a Dark Judge, at least I think that was part of his motivation. If he considers himself
pure/virtuous then it's a nihilistic interpretation of those terms. He's pure by default because he's eradicated all impure life but that doesn't make him virtuous, he's still a mass murderer.
I regard Judge Death as a warped nihilistic. His agenda:
to kill in order that purity will endure is flawed. It's like saying "kill all criminals so we won't have any crime." It's a practical solution because we eradicate all crime but kids stealing sweets or shoplifting would also be executed!
Quotei would not want death to be painted as some sort of supernatural eco terrorist, i believe pat mills might sue. but the image of judge death walking in an abundant rainforest in the distant future saying 'there! i was right' seems appealing to me
A genocidal mass murderer seems appealing to you. Er... okay. ::) ???
According to internet dictionaries there's no such word as genocidal. But it sounds good. :D
Yes there is!
I wish I'd never mentioned it.
:D
oh im not saying that he is virtuous but rather thats how he regards himself.
i cant remember which story i saw it in but i remember images of deadworld being comlpetely desolate and covered in ash, thus the idea of regrowth
and no i didnt mean genocidal maniacs are appealling any more than authoritarian cops are but rather its an appealing character twist for me
Of course, they could be seen as Militant Gnostics - the divine spark has become trapped in the corrupt physical world and they are only helping humanity by setting thme free from the grasp of the Demiurge.
A gold star to the first person who can come up with a plausible way of connecting the Dark Judges back to the Cathars.
Interesting thought.
As to the word "genocidal" - I think the key word in your description of your search was "internet". It's not a reliable source in an of itself, merely a pointer towards reliable, peer moderated and edited sources or a place to find them. After all, any numpty can post something on the web, but a book publisher, commiting money, resources and time, would be very particular about fact-checking etc.
That's not to say ALL online sources are busted flushes, just that they should be treated with care and, if possible, corroborated. You didn't specify which dictionary sites you visited. I reckon if you were to pick up a multi-volume PRINT dictionary (say the OED) then it might well appear.
Not that I know of course.
Yeah, I realise that's a bit of a rant. My pet peeve I'm afraid. One of several.
Perhaps deadworld was reduced to ash, devoid of any life, was under the assumption that sentient life has to come from somewhere so sparks of any life sentient or not has to be eradicated thus no life can evolve. Too deep?
V
I think the idea behind Judge Death's philosophy was just to keep it simple: Judge Dredd's law enforcement doesn't go far enough, and by policing a live populace the Mega-City judges are just making work for themselves. A lawn is high maintenance. A patio doesn't need mowing.
Interesting comment from Sensibleken.
There are rather a lot of Malthusian enviromental extremists who share the same worldview as Judge Death who would like to wipe out Humans for crimes against Mother Earth.
They think that they are nothing more than vermin like cockroaches who need to be wiped out to save the planet.
I have argued with them online and i usually shut them up by asking them that if they have that philosophy then why dont they lead by example ?
Anyway i always thought that Deadworld was in a state of permanent nuclear winter which would mean no chance of life re-establishing itself.It also seems like Judge Death wanted to kill off all life by creating the conditions of Deadworld to do exactly that because if not then he could have killed off all human life and left other lifeforms intact and unharmed but i dont think Judge Death was a Treehugger or an animal lover somehow.
Quote from: peterwolf on 26 August, 2009, 11:52:49 PM
They think that they are nothing more than vermin like cockroaches who need to be wiped out to save the planet.
They're right. They
are a plague of vermin. Let's rid the planet of this bunnyhugging infestation.
Brilliant comeback by the way, Peterwolf.
Judging by your alternative assessment of Judge Death I would say that he's like Druid.
They seem very brutally nature loving, and tree hugging.
Prefering the company of trees and animals to civilisation. Which as you put it is the ultimate crime second to living. As you say they that life is only a crime when it cannot flourish without the modern contrivances of civiliseation.
Druids
They cut people open and read their guts. They are eco-warriors of the creepiest kind.
Though, if Judge Death would be in leage with them, then he would have first place.
I like your theories that actaullely challenge what alot of people have been lead to beleive about Judge Death. Though, I only guessing that.
I think this is worth pursueing.
But it's pity I haven't read much in Judge Death. I don't think I have ever read about deaworkld and everytime I start "Young Death: Boyhood of a Super Fiend" I stop.So, I coan't really agree with you for that reason alone.
I spent the rest of the night and te next morning until I dozed off reading about Cathars, Gnosticism, Their war with Catholicism, The rise of the Domminicans and the other orders of monks, The fortress of Carcassonne, De' jure, Defacto and Desuetude and other latin phrases, Ducking Scolds, Docking and forcing criminals to wear barrels, the desert of wales, Cambrian mountains, before dozing off into a confused slumber.,
Quote from: Emperor on 26 August, 2009, 05:45:50 PM
Of course, they could be seen as Militant Gnostics - the divine spark has become trapped in the corrupt physical world and they are only helping humanity by setting thme free from the grasp of the Demiurge.
A gold star to the first person who can come up with a plausible way of connecting the Dark Judges back to the Cathars.
Militant Gnostics . I likdo like the sound of that, but I not so sure it can be really pinned to Judge Death.
CATHARS, you shouldn't have mentioned that, because it could be a reference to SLAINE. Something I go alittle nuts over, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha........
Remember reading about the CATHERS as Pat mIlls made note of them in one of his rare Slaine stories Post HornGod. Even though Pat Mills said "Slaine is stand alone"., I could now imagine Slaine and Judge Death meeting perhaps very briefly. Judge Detah might manifest differently in Slaine's world or vice versa. Slaine might take a trip to Death world or the Death-Realm. Say, would that be one of the four EL worlds. As they have been outlined in "Dragon Crpse The second Diceman story. The world of the dead. I think it's possible.
Other iwse what I have learnt about Cathrs through Wikipdiea.has confused me and didn't make all that sence as it lead me on a wild interenet goose chase
What Ithink I have learn is that they have many variants, one of them is the Gnostic. Whom I beleive don't worship god, because they would need proof. Physical evidence and that denies faith as far as I am concerned. .
Quoting the wikipediea entry for CATHARS
QuoteAccording to some Cathars, the purpose of man's life on Earth was to transcend matter, perpetually renouncing anything connected with the principle of power and thereby attained union with the principle of love. According to others, man's purpose was to reclaim or redeem matter, spiritualizing and transforming it.
If it's a Cathars purpose to transcend matter...... Would that be like on of us throwing out or giving away all of their 2000AD progs. According to some variant groups, they take it further by reclaiming , redeemming matter, bringing it to spiritual level or would that be like getting all those Progs back via a interenet download.
Anyway, that was difficult to learn about. I go back to sleep now.
It seems to me that Judge Death doesn't really have a philosophy to speak of.
The son of a sadistic travelling dentist, Sidney De'ath delighted in inflicting pain and eventually gained a taste for killing by murdering three bullies from his school. It seems highly likely that the enjoyment he found in murder led him to becoming a judge, where he could kill with virtual impunity and eventually gained the nickname "Judge Death" due to his high kill-rate. Upon encountering the Sisters of Death, Judge Death and his comrades were rendered undead and imbued with supernatural powers. Once this process was complete, the four Dark Judges proceeded to eliminate all life on their world.
I don't know how long the Dark Judges and the Sisters existed in Deadworld after the Terracide had been completed, but at some point explorers from another dimension happened along and their dimension travelling technology was stolen. Death then used this technology to travel to Mega City One and continue the killing.
So far, this seems to me to be nothing more than opportunism.
Assuming certain similarities between Dredd's world and Deadworld, then it would follow that Judge Death's Earth would also at some time have been involved with, or at least aware of, aliens. Assuming, again, that Death's "all life is a crime" mantra is a philosophy, would it not be more logical for the Dark Judges to spread their particular brand of law to the rest of the galaxy? This course of action does not seem to have been pursued by either the Sisters of Death or the Dark Judges and I find myself asking why this should be so. It is possible that in destroying all human life, the Dark Judges eliminated the expertise and knowledge required to construct, operate and maintain the starships necessary for them to spread their particular brand of justice beyond the Earth. This would indicate a short-sightedness at the core of Judge Death's supposed philosophy which, to my mind, indicates that "all life is a crime" is not so much a philosophy as a psychopath's excuse for killing.
To further this argument, let us consider Judge Death's first incursion into Mega City One. Judge Death arrives alone and proceeds to "judge" citizens one by one. The logical course of action would be for Judge Death to investigate Dredd's world and then return to his own dimension in order to formulate a plan for the rapid annihilation of all life on Dredd's Earth. Given the Dark Judges' experience in cleansing their own world of life, and the problems of resistance they must have overcome from their citizens in the process, this one-on-one approach simply doesn't add up either mathematically or philosophically. The only explanation I can think of is that Judge Death quite simply enjoys killing and that his philosophy is nothing more than a convenient excuse to justify his murderous proclivities.
If this is indeed the case, it leads me to wonder just exactly what is going on here, and always my thoughts return to the Sisters of Death. Described and portrayed as witches, Phobia and Nausea were the entities who granted Judges Death, Fire, Fear and Mortis with the powers they required in order to complete the original objective of purging their world of all life. Witches in our world are often associated with Earth Magick, the magick of life itself. The power of life is at the heart of a witches' craft and so it may be that the Sisters of Death planned to harvest the life energy of an entire planet for their own purposes. Seeing in Sydney De'ath an opportunity to achieve their goals, it would be easy for the Sisters to agree with his "all life is a crime" excuse, thereby legitimising it in De'ath's own mind and reinforcing his belief that he did indeed follow a justifiable and logical philosophy. The four Dark Judges, then, become no more than tools in the Sisters' plans.
Further indications that this may be the case might be seen in the apparel of the Sisters and the Dark Judges. The Sisters adorn themselves with life (live human heads as earrings, scorpions, snakes, worms etc) as if they are gathering life to themselves and holding it in thrall, possibly as a symbol of all the life-energy they have stolen and converted into some dark power which they now control. Judge Death's pterosaur (?) shoulder pad depicts a (presumably) extinct species, but instead of being depicted as bones the pterosaur is rendered in the form it would have taken during life. Is this meant to represent an echo of life, the life that once belonged to Sydney De'ath but has long since been extinguished and replaced with an approximation of life? Death's badge would seem to resemble the skull of a vampire, a supernatural creature that depends on life in the form of fresh blood to continue its own existence. Does this symbolise Judge Death, and by extension his three colleagues, as the "fangs" of the vampire, biting into the neck of Deadworld and transferring the lifeblood, or in this instance the life-force, of an entire planet to the Sisters?
In conclusion, then, I don't think that Judge Death really has a philosophy – only an excuse. The real question, I believe, is what is the Sisters of Death's philosophy?
Shark,
You might not be a shark, but for that intriguing post, you're a legend.
I doubt Wagner thought very much about this sort of thing when he created the characters, he doesn't tend to over-plan - he just does whatever makes a good story and then reacts to it entirely logically (but not predictably). But I hope he's either had those thoughts SINCE creating the characters or that he stumbles across this thread. Got to be a fair bit of fodder for interesting story threads there.
I've always thought it a shame we didn't get much of the sisters, hopefully that will one day be remedied.
Heh, thanks, Mike. I once lost out on a promotion because my stoopid boss told me I "think too much." Seems my stoopid boss may have been right after all.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 28 August, 2009, 01:48:19 AM
Heh, thanks, Mike. I once lost out on a promotion because my stoopid boss told me I "think too much." Seems my stoopid boss may have been right after all.
yup stupid people always say that. good ideas above alright. totally forgot about the sisters. i guess a 14 year absence is a while
Judge Sidney Death just liked killing things and liked the power over his victims killing things gave him. He created his philosophy as an excuse for continuing to kill things. When given the opportunity to continue what he was doing with out breaking his own rules and also being able to continue with out repercussions e.g. some one suddenly deciding that he should die as well, he went for it.
Not withstanding that the sisters are likely responsible for any of those in the Justice Department of Deadworld or those in a position to oppose them who would have otherwise tried to stop the Dark Judges seeing the issue their way in much the same way that the MC1 Judges where coerced.
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 28 August, 2009, 01:48:19 AM
Heh, thanks, Mike. I once lost out on a promotion because my stoopid boss told me I "think too much." Seems my stoopid boss may have been right after all.
An employer of mine didn't want to hire me to work nights in a homeless hostel for minimum wage because I have a PhD, at a time when I had no other work and was desperate for anything I could get because I had a mortgage to pay. He had to hire me because I was the only shortlisted candidate who turned up for the interview. I did a good job right enough, and stuck it out almost a year before something better came along. They were bloody lucky to have me.
I've had a similar experience, HoU.
It's so tough trying to convince these people that if you're desperate enough to go to an interview for a job you're hopelessly over-qualified for, then you're desperate enough to take it and do it well if they'd only OFFER it to you.
Anyone who ever says things like "you think too much" doesn't think enough. If at all.
To be fair, Stoopid Boss did end the sentence "you think too much" with the words "about Judge Death."
And, by God, any employer would be bloody lucky to have any of us. We're all too good for them.
Judge Death is still an interesting guy, good discussion here.
One thing's for sure, they need to bring Judge Death back. It's been five years since his last appearance, I think they should bring him back in the next year or two.
True enough, I felt "My Name is Death" and "Wilderness Days" really only scratched the surface of what could be done with a serious, character-driven approach to him. He'd previously only been treated as a terrifying force of nature or a joke - both good treatments with much to recommend them, but both limited in terms of their sustainability. Now he's proper scary again, I'd appreciate a bit more "fleshing out" (if that's not a contradiction in terms) of the character.
Of course, while he's out of the picture it MIGHT be possible for some stories about the OTHER Dark Judges and the Sisters who haven't had much exposure.
Here's my twopence on the subject. Highly personal, without any research and entirely subjective, taken wholly from Death's first appearance:
First victim is Tiny the tap (little cock), Death enters him with a teeth baring look of orgiastic pleasure. The 'little death' of sex has been enacted. Tiny's face in 'death' is wide-eyed and open-mouthed. The judges had been chasing Tiny through a 'maze', (his sexuality). There is a smell of decay - ie sex. The moralist pronounces consumation a sin, which must result in death. The decay and decomposition could be read as venereal disease. Death has 'come to judge you' - the price of acting.
At the Rabbit Hutch (sex again) Death is drawn by the sound of life - namely dancing, people enjoying themselves, living and acting in the world. There is a lot of flesh on show. Death 'kills' again, saying "I just stick my hand in and ssqueezze." The bodies on the ground look like a post-orgy scence, to which the 'Judge' exclaims - 'What a nightmare'. Death pierces a judge, then a group of men 'shoot' into him. They follow this up by exclaiming: 'We're blowing chunks off him - but he keeps coming.'
Later, Dredd wants to 'fill' Anderson in. She responds by commenting on his 'dirty secrets'. In contacting Death, Anderson adopts an orgiastic expression - head tilted back, nostrils flaming.
Death condemns the living for the crime of living, namely being active, sexual
beings in the world, through choice.
After a veiled masturbation scene with Anderson in her bed, Death enters and consumes her. She carries the 'corpse' of her virginity from the 'morgue' stating that she 'can't - help - myself.' Her old/moralistic self fights to regain control of the beast she carries within. This aspect of her awakened self fights Dredd, only to be overcome by the desire to be 'trapped' forever with the 'beast' inside her, which can't be allowed to get out.
Who is Death - he's the personification of the stultifying morality which condemns human action as unworthy, beastly, decadent, corrupt and unnatural.
As I say, it's my reading, so feel free to disagree.
Um...
I thought he was just a bad-ass undead judge from a parallel dimension who liked offing cits.
Quote from: Mary Poppins on 01 September, 2009, 01:14:31 AM
As I say, it's my reading, so feel free to disagree.
I'm all for interpreting things and bringing your own ideas to the table. But, just for the record... you don't think John Wagner had any of this in mind do you?
While it's nice that a French phrase for orgasm means "the little death", I'm pretty sure Wagner did not have that in mind when he created Judge Death.
I'm not saying the creator's view on their art is how we should all see it or anything, just sayin'.
QuoteAn employer of mine didn't want to hire me to work nights in a homeless hostel for minimum wage because I have a PhD, at a time when I had no other work and was desperate for anything I could get because I had a mortgage to pay.
Similar story here - when I'd freshly failed to complete my MA and was very heavily in debt I applied for any and all jobs within reach. I was turned down for advertised jobs in three different supermarkets for being "over-qualified", despite having worked as kitchen porter and canteen counter staff for the previous six years, not to mention failing to get the qualification in question and being utterly desperate.
I ended up going door-to-door putting wood-preserver on sheds and fences, which in retrospect was infinitely better. It had a certain 'when ahm cleanin winderz' vibe.
'Confessions of a Door-to-Door Wood Preserver'? ;)
Quote'Confessions of a Door-to-Door Wood Preserver'?
Sadly more George Formby than Robin Askwith, but still, I learnt that people do the oddest things when they know full-well there's a man painting their fence.
I think I may be going through a phase of being overqualified for jobs at the moment, although I suspect this situation may be engineered by my mother as she attempts to force me into doing a PhD so that one of her children will become a "Doctor".
There is hope, seeing as my youngest brother (the good one) may turn out to be cleverer (or at least less prone to Olympian feats of procrastination) than I.
On topic, I've always wondered if Sydney only lasted beyond that first three parter because he was drawn by Brian Bolland?
Quote from: Roger Godpleton on 01 September, 2009, 11:47:08 AM
On topic, I've always wondered if Sydney only lasted beyond that first three parter because he was drawn by Brian Bolland?
I think you may be right there. I remember reading somewhere that for John Wagner it was pretty much just another story, another villian, until he saw the job that Bolland had turned in, which almost certainly sowed the seeds for a return.
Last night as I was drifting off to sleep I was picturing Brian Bolland's amazing designs for the four Dark Judges and wondering how much description he was given by the writer and how much the designs subsequently influenced the story. I presume Judge Fear having a double gated mask and man-traps as throwing weapons was already in the script before Bolland started sketching. Does anybody know how collaboration between writer and artist was handled on Judge Death Lives?
I remember reading a description of Wagner's scripts (by Gibson?) as being like 'particularly exciting telegrams', so I would take from that there was little description of character appearance.
M.
Quote from: Mikey on 02 September, 2009, 01:23:03 PM
I remember reading a description of Wagner's scripts (by Gibson?) as being like 'particularly exciting telegrams', so I would take from that there was little description of character appearance.
The reason I ask is that Judge Fear is called upon to hurl man-traps about (thus immobilising Anderson?), which made me wonder if the scene was inspired by Bolland's designs, or if Wagner's brief called for Judge Fear to be designed with man-traps about his person because Wagner had already got ideas about man-traps in his script.
Greetingsssssss...
I come with the definitive analysis of Judge Death's philosophy.
'You're alive, and I'm going to kill you, then you'll be dead. Not alive'
Bolland had pretty much free reign with the design. I remember reading (TPO?) that there happened to be a sheep's skull hanging of the wall of the house he was in at the time which became the inspiration for Judge Mortis, and that Judge Fear's portcullis-face was a homage to Kev O' Neill's style.