I thought I'd post this thread up to go with the Lettering, Writing and general art threads.
I found this tutorial for Photoshop CS4 recently, and it seems most (if not all) of the process can be done in previous versions (Works fine on CS3 but by all accounts the principles run further back)
http://www.farlowstudios.com/tutorials/digital-inking-in-photoshop-cs4-update/
Quite pleasing results can be found using Pen and Brush Tools, and mixing the levels and angles in the options panels of each.
Feel free to add any other links etc as usual :)
Quote from: uncle fester on 04 September, 2009, 12:08:28 PM
Quite pleasing results can be found using Pen and Brush Tools, and mixing the levels and angles in the options panels of each.
Fascinating ... </spock>
No, seriously, I never knew you could apply a variable stoke weight to a path like that in Photoshop -- in many ways that seems preferable to Illustrator, although it does presuppose some fairly tight pencils to work from ...
Cheers!
Jim
This reminds me, and also gives me a reason not to go searching old threads... Jim, you recommended a Manga art programme for inking and that, could you remind me what it is..?
Quote from: His Lordship rac on 04 September, 2009, 01:36:08 PM
This reminds me, and also gives me a reason not to go searching old threads... Jim, you recommended a Manga art programme for inking and that, could you remind me what it is..?
Manga Studio Debut 4 (http://shop.smithmicro.com/v2.0-img/operations/aladdins/site/567350/lp/manga_debut4_uk.html)
Probably the best £30 I've spent this year. The last two compo entries were inked with it, and a strip I'm working on very slowly seems to be coming together ...
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/SD_OF_Samp.jpg)
Cheers!
Jim
Cheers Jim!
I've come into a bit of backpay, so I think I'll get this for Bou... only fair after getting myself a hard drive for the XBox and Space Hulk!
Nice one, Jim. Pretty. *drool*
Quote from: Mike Gloady on 04 September, 2009, 02:08:58 PM
Nice one, Jim. Pretty. *drool*
Considering the length of time I've spent on this strip so far, it bloody well
should look nice! Brian Bolland speed, but without the Brian Bolland results or, indeed, pay cheque ...
Cheers!
Jim
Jim, you may well be among the more time challenged of the artists who have produced strips for me, but you've a long way to go before beating the record.
Even our esteemed Bart Diaz is no longer the title holder for me.
And it is a nice little strip- you are doing a bang up job on it.
Good ink work going on there Jim. I'm curious about Manga Studio. What do you feel makes it better for inking than Photoshop?
I've already posted a link elsewhere to the Gibbons Rorschach cover work through. Curious as to why he has sketched in PS then inked in Manga Studio.
http://my.smithmicro.com/mac/manga/index.html#
Quote from: SuperSurfer on 04 September, 2009, 02:28:30 PM
Good ink work going on there Jim. I'm curious about Manga Studio. What do you feel makes it better for inking than Photoshop?
To be honest, apart from the ~£400 difference in the price tag, I just find the pen and brush controls more intuitive. For some reason, I don't seem to be able to get Photoshop brushes to behave the way I want them to. I appreciate that this is probably more about me than it is about Photoshop, but £30 to be able to sit down and just work seemed like value for money to me ...!
Plus, in PS CS3, you can't free rotate the canvas as you work (and you still can't in Illustrator, even in CS4).
Oddly enough, I still sketch in PS, too. This is partly because I like PS' selection and compositing tools better, so it's easier to montage in reference material, select and re-size parts of the composition, and so on.
That said, I'm using PS less for this sort of thing now, and am making an effort to work solely in MSD. I'm still lettering in Illustrator, though, and whenever I get round to colour, I intend to do that in Photoshop.
Oh ... and PS CS3 crashes on me. A lot. No, really, a LOT. Manga Studio -- thus far, fingers crossed -- not at all.
Cheers!
Jim
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 04 September, 2009, 02:23:48 PM
And it is a nice little strip- you are doing a bang up job on it.
Thank you for the kind words, sir!
(It's all in the lettering really ...)
Cheers
Jim
Actually, I've been meaning to add one important caveat about Manga Studio since I first recommended it:
I'm a shit inker. MSD has a small amount of stroke correction (you can vary it but not, I think, turn it off completely) which I find very useful, but that's probably because I'm a shit inker. If you're a good inker, then I can imagine that it might drive you slightly potty.
You can download a 30-day trial version (http://my.smithmicro.com/mac/manga/index.html), which might be advisable before you shell out any cash ...
Cheers!
Jim
Thanks for the info about Manga Studio, Jim. Yes, of course, for someone who doesn't have PS I guess it would be an easy choice to opt for Manga Studio on the basis of price.
I haven't settled on a drawing technique I am happy with. For my last comp entry I tried sketching in PS, printing out on paper in blue and inking with bog standard felt tip pens. Next time I am in town I'll try to buy some brush tip markers as I still want to explore inking on paper further. I find that much quicker at the moment. Oh, and perhaps I should try something other than standard photocopy paper.
Hey, I like the look of that Stront Dog piece Jim. Nice panel design. Which reminds me, I need to get some more Zarjaz and Dogbreath goodness.
MSD 4 is well worth thirty quid. The pens and brushes "feel" great. That said, I'm starting to get my head round Pshop elements a bit more now, though I think I may need to get a full version for a full range of masking options etc. Possibly a previous version for cheapness, CS3 I guess it would be.
Quote from: SuperSurfer on 04 September, 2009, 03:36:38 PM
Oh, and perhaps I should try something other than standard photocopy paper.
Honestly ...? Good paper makes more of a difference to inking than any of the various pens and brushes that I've used over the years* ... 225gsm Bristol Board is an absolute pleasure to ink on. I'd suggest using a good India Ink for line work, but latterly (before getting seduced by this digital malarkey) I'd taken to diluting black acrylic paint to a vaguely ink-like consistency for filling in solid areas. It's 100% water soluble for brush-cleaning, but there's something deeply satisfying about laying down a black that's
so black that light just falls into it!**
Cheers
Jim
*Excepting the Gillott 303 nib -- Dave Gibbons dip pen nib of choice in years gone by. Produces a wide variation of line weight and carries a healthy charge of ink. I'm a firm believer that anything that reduces the amount of time you spend fiddling about and increases the amount of time you spend drawing is a good thing, and the 303 is a fantastic example of that.
** Keeping in mind that -- by my own admission -- I'm a
shit inker.
Quote from: Kerrin on 04 September, 2009, 07:50:37 PM
Hey, I like the look of that Stront Dog piece Jim. Nice panel design.
As ever, you are a gentleman, sir!
I'll be honest -- I'm not a fan of breaking panel borders. I've read interviews with a number of artists whose views I respect unconditionally who've said that keeping all the art inside the panel borders renders the device, the form even, effectively invisible; that consistency in this focuses the eye within the panel.
But ... doing this digitally meant that I was able to try it this way; or with the panel border cropping the image; or with the image shifted to lie inside the panel ... and it worked best this way, by a mile.
I'd never have even tried it with pen an paper.
Cheers
Jim
Traditional inking
Hi Fellas,- can anyone give me a run down on how inking is normally started when doing it the old way by hand-transferring the work from pencil sheets to a new sheet for inking- are the inks traced off the original?-cheers
Quote from: Jase on 25 September, 2009, 02:23:54 PM
Traditional inking
Hi Fellas,- can anyone give me a run down on how inking is normally started when doing it the old way by hand-transferring the work from pencil sheets to a new sheet for inking- are the inks traced off the original?-cheers
Whatever works. In many cases, they're inked directly over the originals (although this -- obviously -- requires nerves of steel!), sometimes scanned in grayscale and reprinted on artboard in 'non-repro' blue, sometimes inked via use of a lightbox onto a new sheet of paper.
I have heard of people using layout paper to ink on, so that you can see the pencils through the overlaid sheet, but I can't imagine the surface of layout paper is particularly nice to ink on.
Cheers!
Jim
Cheers Jim, I'll have to try a few methods and see what works for me, but not directly onto the pencils!!
So you've got your indian ink and your heavyweight paper. But what do you guys ink with?
I've still not laid my greasy paws on a wacom, but (going to the other extreme) I have a fondness for my old dip pen. Very time-consuming and the ink can splatter, but you get a lovely quality of line which actual pens don't really emulate.
For my recent strips in Dogbreath and Back From The Depths, I've been inking my pencils with a variety of pens (not the dip pen), just because it's quicker.
But I fancy getting the dip pen out again for some upcoming strips...
Quote from: mygrimmbrother on 25 September, 2009, 04:15:46 PM
But what do you guys ink with?
The aforementioned Gillott 303 Flexible for all freehand lines, cheapo 0.1, 0.5 and 0.8mm disposable fibretips for anything that needed ruling, a couple of brushes for filling in blacks. Never, ever got the hang of laying down linework with a brush.
Cheers!
Jim
I use a Copic Multiliner brush pen for long or curved lines like outlines etc. For everything else, I use Copic Multiliner markers size 0.1 and 0.3. These are very nice to use (ink dries very quickly, and they are waterproof), and have changeable nibs and cartridges.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51u2yqU9OVL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
I also sometimes use Sakura Pigma Micron markers sizes 0.1, 0.3 and 0.05.
(http://www.jetpens.com/images/sakura_xsdk005-49.jpg)
I fill in blacks with generic permanent markers.
Never got the hang of using dip pens or brushes - far too much faffing around for me and could never get them to do anything other than minimal linework. I read somewhere that Mike Mignola uses only markers, and if they're good enough for Mignola...
For markers I have found that the smoother the drawing surface the better, and they're pretty useless for inking directly over pencils, as erasing will shred your lines. I currently photocopy my pencils faintly onto bristol board for inking, though hopefully I'll soon be getting an A3 printer/scanner, which will enable me to use the blue-line method PJ outlined.
Top tips there for pens.I am going to definately check these out as i never knew they existed.
Particularly interested in Copic Multiliners and the Gillot flexible.
I just ink straight over the pencil work.When i first started doing this there was always a certain amount of trepidation but that wears off after a while as confidence increases.
I did a couple of landscaqpes recently where i didnt even pencil apart from a few rough lines so that was a bit of a breakthrough.
Really want to invest in some brush pens. Never got on with dip pens at all. Don't mind brushes. Have read in the past that some inkers chop of the tips of brushes to get a chisel effect (I think). Was always a bit too precious about my brushes to do that.
I've tried all sorts of techniques but haven't decided what I should stick to. So far for the comps I've:
• worked entirely in Photoshop
• sketched on paper, scanned and inked in Photoshop
• sketched in Photoshop, printed out and inked with crap pens on crap paper, scanned
• sketched on paper, inked on tracing paper, scanned
Yeah, just about every variation possible.
The problem I find with Photoshop is that I end up constantly zooming in and working on details which is really time consuming.
Oooh... excessive zooming (or should that be 'zooming to excessive magnification) is a baaaaad thing. I uswed to do this a lot when I first started using Photoshop to colour things. I found it robbed me of a lot of energy, sucked the immediacy out of my work and tested my patience and resolve. I'm wondering what sort of detail it is that you're zooming in to ink like this, 'Surfer? And what degree of magnification are you going up to?
Also, I notice a few folks have commented on Manga Studio 4 Debut. This is on my shopping list. I want it so that I can add nifty tones and manga-style speed lines to black and white art pages. But as I really like to tie everything together in Photoshop, I wonder if anybody could tell me how well the program copes with exporting files? I keep asking folks who own and use Manga Studio, but never seem to get any sense out of them!
Quote from: HdE on 25 September, 2009, 06:16:04 PM
I keep asking folks who own and use Manga Studio, but never seem to get any sense out of them!
It's fine. Manga Studio will export in pretty much all major graphics formats, including PSD with layers preserved. It has some rather useful tools for laying down perspective grids as well.
Cheers!
Jim
Quote from: HdE on 25 September, 2009, 06:16:04 PM
I'm wondering what sort of detail it is that you're zooming in to ink like this, 'Surfer? And what degree of magnification are you going up to?
Sure, excessive zooming-in does suck out ones life force energy. I tend to work with two windows of the same file, one zoomed-in and the other showing the whole image which helps a great deal. Screengrab of my desktop:
'Kay guys, thanks for the pen recommendations. Now then, if anyone has the patience, and at the risk of sounding like a total amateur, can someone explain exactly how these 'non-repro' blue inks work? Many moons ago, I used to work in a paste-up department of a newspaper office (just before it all went computerised), and we drew all over the buggers with blue felt tips before they went to print. So I understand the premise, but I don't understand how to execute it with comic art. If anyone can enlighten me (and you're going to BICS) I'll buy you a pint of your choice.
Quote from: mygrimmbrother on 25 September, 2009, 09:03:36 PM
'Kay guys, thanks for the pen recommendations. Now then, if anyone has the patience, and at the risk of sounding like a total amateur, can someone explain exactly how these 'non-repro' blue inks work? Many moons ago, I used to work in a paste-up department of a newspaper office (just before it all went computerised), and we drew all over the buggers with blue felt tips before they went to print. So I understand the premise, but I don't understand how to execute it with comic art. If anyone can enlighten me (and you're going to BICS) I'll buy you a pint of your choice.
Non-repro blue is just a colour that can be dropped out of a photocopy or scan -- scan your pencils in grayscale, darken 'em up in Photoshop if need be so they're nice and definite, create a new layer over the top set to Screen, fill with 100% Cyan (or whatever percentage you're happy with), and your pencils should now be non-repro blue.
You can then print 'em out on art board, ink over the top, and drop the bluelines out when you scan 'em back in, or even on a photocopier if you're going Old School.
Cheers!
Jim
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 25 September, 2009, 06:24:07 PM
Quote from: HdE on 25 September, 2009, 06:16:04 PM
I keep asking folks who own and use Manga Studio, but never seem to get any sense out of them!
It's fine. Manga Studio will export in pretty much all major graphics formats, including PSD with layers preserved. It has some rather useful tools for laying down perspective grids as well.
Thanks for that, Jim. Once again, you're my hero today. It's TIFF files that I tend to stress about. I always work in TIFFS thanks to the file compression options. I found that PSD files tend to do strange distortion-y things.
Just wondered, are talking Manga Studio Debut, or the big expensive one?
Quote from: HdE on 26 September, 2009, 01:37:27 PM
Just wondered, are talking Manga Studio Debut, or the big expensive one?
Debut -- the £30 one!
There may be extra options in the EX version, but you get TIFF, JPEG, PSD (plus PICT -- inexplicably, since it's a Mac-only format even Apple have abandoned -- BMP, PNG and TGA) in the cheapo one.
Cheers
Jim
Jim.
Accept this finely crafted sword of samurai nobility, and wear it with pride upon your hip (even though you'll get arrested if you walk into Asda wearing it) for on this day, you have done me a great honour and service. In fact, have a few pints, and this gourmet-prepared chicken tikka masala.
Now THAT'S gratitude!
Monday's wages are being spent on Manga Studio Debut. It'll help me out a LOT. Thanks for clearing that up for me!
Quote from: SuperSurfer on 25 September, 2009, 05:54:41 PM
Really want to invest in some brush pens. Never got on with dip pens at all. Don't mind brushes. Have read in the past that some inkers chop of the tips of brushes to get a chisel effect (I think). Was always a bit too precious about my brushes to do that.
I've tried all sorts of techniques but haven't decided what I should stick to. So far for the comps I've:
• worked entirely in Photoshop
• sketched on paper, scanned and inked in Photoshop
• sketched in Photoshop, printed out and inked with crap pens on crap paper, scanned
• sketched on paper, inked on tracing paper, scanned
Yeah, just about every variation possible.
The problem I find with Photoshop is that I end up constantly zooming in and working on details which is really time consuming.
Thanks for the tip about chopping the end off a brush.I just did this to one of my brushes.I cut the end off at an angle with a scalpel blade.
I wanted to get those brushstrokes that are long that taper into a very fine sharp point and could never find a brush off the shelf that would do this and none of them were really what i was looking for.
Yeah - I'm thinking about nipping into my local discount book store and getting some of their cheap artist's brushes to do this with. I'd hoped to afford a brush pen this week but skint-ness-ossity hath prevented me.
Damn. Sometimes I hate being self employed.
Glad it works, Pete. I'll have to try it myself.
I popped into town today and bought a couple of brush pens. A Faber-Castell and Tombo (never heard of that brand).
I've been working on this month's competition entry but all I had was a MUJI gel pen and an Edding marker. Frustrating as can't really get variable thickness strokes but will finish using those and then try new pens for next sketch.
MyGrimm...non repro blue ROCKS! I live by it. I use non-repro blue pencils to lay out entire pages, then bring the lead in to tighten things up before the inks. As soon as you scan in B&W after inking, the blue just drops right out, and cant be seen. If you'd like to see, I can always post up a color prelim scan for you to check out. Just LMK.
Cheers!
Quote from: Gibson Quarter on 29 September, 2009, 06:16:20 AMIf you'd like to see, I can always post up a color prelim scan for you to check out. Just LMK.
Yes please.
I need BIG scans for you to see what I'm talking about, so I have to use my blog. Please take a sec to check out:
http://gibsonquarter27art.blogspot.com/
I put up some big scans so you can see what I'm talking about.
Cheers!
Appreciate that GQ, was still unsire about how a certian shade of blue can just 'disappear', but that blog entyr has cleared it up.
You're a gent!
I actually tried sketching in blue pencil once. I didn't use any special 'non-photo blue' pencils or anything like that - just took an educated guess as to the shade of blue that I needed, and bought a handful of those pencils in the local art shop.
After tightening up with a mechanical pencil and then inking, I found that the blue dropped out just fine when I scanned the art in lineart mode, which my scanner seems to do really well.
http://dylansdrawingboard.blogspot.com/2009/01/blue.html (http://dylansdrawingboard.blogspot.com/2009/01/blue.html)
You don't have to use be non-photo blue, just any lightish shade of blue will do. I tried the non-photo col erase and found it too hard and light I use the dark blue ones. The above link shows how I get rid of the blue from my pencils but it works just as well with inks. I've even done the same with a red pencil and selected the red channel.
The always-affable and horribly talented Nigel Dobbyn has bunged a very useful guide to his inking process in Illustrator up on his deviantART page.
Start here (http://handtoeye.deviantart.com/art/Inking-in-Illustrator-01-139579870) and click the BACK (not the forward, confusingly) buttons to go to the next step.
It's good stuff.
Cheers!
Jim
I think I'm going to pick up some of the Copic Multiliner Radiator has recommended.
Just picked up a copy of manga studio 4 and have been mucking about on it.
I'm crap at inking, so can anyone recommend a pen/bruch to use in MS4?
Quote from: Bhuna on 10 October, 2009, 03:36:25 PM
I'm crap at inking, so can anyone recommend a pen/bruch to use in MS4?
At the moment, I'm doing literally everything with this:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/PenPalette.png)
All I'm doing is varying the size, and whether or not the Stroke In and Stroke Out options are checked, which affects the taper of the stroke.
One thing that might not be immediately obvious is this ... click on the green button below:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/PenOptions-1.png)
And you get this dialogue:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/PenResponsiveness.png)
The curve represents the way the stroke behaves in response to pressure on the tablet, bottom left being no pressure and top right being maximum pressure. You can leave this window open, so you can fiddle with the curve, try a couple of strokes on the document, fiddle with it some more ...
You can also
add points to the curve, just by clicking on any part where there isn't already a point:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/CurvePoints.png)
... Which enables you to fine-tune the stroke behaviour.
One drawback I have discovered is that although these settings will stay the same until you change them, you don't seem to be able to save out custom brush/pen settings so that you can return to them later on. I suspect that this is a feature you have to buy the full-price version to get.
(Alternatively, I may simply not have read the manual in enough detail ...)
Cheers!
Jim
Cheers Jim
Cool beans! More info on Manga Studio!
I still haven't got 'round to buying this software yet - to be honest, I wouldn't intend to use it for inks, butit's greatto get some further info on it. It's surprising how hard it is to find detailed commentary on it on the net.
I finally caved and upgraded my 3.0 EX to 4.0 EX - expect an update when it comes in the post... (not that I ever really used 3.0, but the demo version of 4.0 looks nice and I'm tempted to do some pencilling in manga studio...)
-pj
...and I just took the plunge and ordered the Debut edition from Amazon.
I was unsure if it was the right thing to do. But seeing as the next thing I saw online was an email inviting me to contribute to a convention comic, my doubts were quickly forgotten.
I'm taking it as a sign!
..And now I have it!
Spent about an hour fiddling with it this evening. I have NO idea what I'm doing with it. No instruction manual in the box (ya gotta love that. :-/ ) and the soddin' download keeps failing on me halfway through.
Oh well, goes to show that signs are often over-rated.
I still have high hopes for the program, though. :)
Quick question re inking.
If I want to pratice using actual pen and ink using the pencils of a pro how to I go about this?
Can you get the pencils copies onto Bristol Board?
Quote from: Richard T Field on 02 October, 2010, 12:27:35 AM
Can you get the pencils copies onto Bristol Board?
I think a copy shop should be able to make blueline copies for you, and a good one should be able to put them onto paper of your choice. This is likely to get expensive quite quickly, though, so you might want to look at an A3 colour printer -- if it doesn't bend the paper too much, you should be fine to feed Bristol Board through it...
Cheers!
Jim
Another rout to take is print off the pencils and use a light table to transfer by hand the pencils onto the Bristol board.
Brill cheers for advice
Can anyone suggest a decent resource for high res pencils (for practice)?
Anyone have any decent tutorials for learning to ink? Particularly using Manga Studio? I'm finding it pretty tough going at the moment.
My first ever (traditional or digital) attempt at inking, done with Dredd pencils I found on DA. My hand hurts.
Apologies for the crappy quality. I'm using the demo version of manga studio so had to crop a screengrab. My linework is a little shaky but I guess that'll get better with time.
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/chilipenguin/Untitled-2.jpg)
After monkeying around in Manga Studio for a good 8 or 9 hours, this is the result of my first full splash page. Let me know what you guys think, please!
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d42/chilipenguin/DangerGirls.jpg)
Sexy!
Only thing I'd say is the girl on the top right's forearm looks a bit butch and masculine. I know there's a bit of foreshortening going on but the part of the arm from near and including the elbow should be thinner in my opinion. I think her head might be proportionately a little too large too, but as it's not an entirely realistic style, that might be intentional. The girl at the bottom is more in proportion though. (Maybe this is an optical illusion on my part.)
I'm not an artist (yet) though so take my opinion with a pinch of salt.
It's lovely though.
Cheers for that. I should have said before, the original pencils come from Sean Ellery's website.
I thought the girl on the bottom right was the weakest, to be honest. I couldn't get her lips right, so she looks like she's had one too many collagen treatments.
So far I'm really enjoying this inking malarky, just need to work on my speed.
Sorry for the double post, but Photobucket seems to have taken exception to the original file, so I've rehosted it at Imageshack.
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1131/dangergirls.jpg)
Very nice. Some lovely inking there, chilipenguin. ;)
Chili; that's f**ken good. My second thought.
The Dredd; arms folded; little detraction on the left hand tucking into the right fore-arm, there. Can you see what I mean?
Checking out some inking tips this morning and found this straight talking near list of tips. Possibly already posted but, as it says, its an update.
http://www.bigredhair.com/work/writing_samples/InkingBook.pdf (http://www.bigredhair.com/work/writing_samples/InkingBook.pdf)
Cheers for that. I agree about Dredd's hand. Don't know why I didn't spot that before.
Excellent link as well.
Another one that may have already been posted because it's got a little sketch pad on the side! To try out the things he's talking about.
http://www.drawinghowtodraw.com/stepbystepdrawinglessons/2010/01/drawing-in-pen-and-ink-techniques-for-pen-drawing/4/