(See what I did there? Puntastic...)
Ok, in response to an email, here's my tool of choice:
I use a Daler Rowney Sapphire Brush (series 51) either a size 0/10 (if I'm feeling confident and it's a good brush) or a size "2/0" which is what I'm favouring right now- they're "rigging" brushes - designed to paint rigging on paintings of boats, so long and very, very fine. I've met people who get the heebie jeebies just looking at them :)
I tend to tell people to buy a bunch of brushes and try them out - John McCrea once recommended (and gave me) a brush that was also a rigging brush, but it was so long that I just couldn't get my head/hand around it and threw the brush down in dispair never to pick one up again for a couple of years.
===
Now, I do a fair bit of digital touch up - adding borders, sometimes throwing some effects down, etc, but, for the most part the brush is the only thing I use when I ink a page - (dipped in indian ink). Sometimes I have good days and sometimes bad days. On the bad days I hit the dip pens...
Ok, what you got?
-pj
Pre digital I used to use Windsor and Newton Cotman brushes series 111 about size 3. It's a very small, thin brush for detail and some lines. Trouble was I had to keep laying paper down to stop smudging my work plus I'm certainly not the steadiest of hands.
The brush tip kept fraying too despite me cleaning it.
I used cheaper cryla brushes but the digital world of Photoshop and particularly Manga Studio helped a lot to lose the un-intentional wobbly line effect that seemed to dog my work.
All hail the pixel God!
How anyone can ink a whole page with brush alone boggles my mind! Comic panels - especially 2000ad pages which tend to have more panels per page than the norm - are very, very small, something you can't really appreciate if you've never tried to draw one, and I just can't get my head around how people get a thin enough line out of a brush - I can't get a straight line using a brush either.
I also find maintaining brushes a nightmare - now matter how carefully I look after them, they somehow lose their point within seconds!
I tend to use a brush pen to lay down all the large or curved lines in a drawing (outlines etc) then do everything else with fineliners. I've never found a perfect method for inking, but I tend to prefer inking rougher these days (rather than aiming for a slick effect) so it seems to work for me. I always have to do quite a lot of cleaning up in Photoshop, though.
I bought Manga Studio and a Wacom recently, so I'm going to have a crack at digital inking at some point.
I keep a jar of water which I use to rinse the brush in - it's stinking, I rarely change it. Then I dry the brush on either a piece of paper or some tissue - using paper I twirl the brush into a point as I'm drying. Occasionally I twirl the brush in my mouth to make a point. My brushes seem to last forever, despite what I see as very poor treatment.
Inking with brush and ruler : Hold the ruler on its edge at an angle off the paper (so, looking side on it looks like this: / ) then, rest the brush on the ruler and pull the brush towards you slowly and steadily using the ruler to keep the edge straight. The lines won't be precisely straight, they actually end up a little wobbly but much more interesting for it.
(I should really make some video of inking again at some point)
-pj
Thanks for starting this thread as i ink with brushes.
I am not sure where to start other than after trying out numerous makes and types pf brush i have finally settled on ProArte Renaissence Sable brushes and they are far far superior to every other brush i have used.This was the make of Sable brush that was for sale in my local art shop but i daresay that any other make of sable brush is just as good.Kolinsky Sable brushes are apparently the best but i havent tried those out yet.
I have been on a learning curve and since switching to these brushes about 2 weeks ago my inking and brushwork has visibly improved or is improving all the time.
I bought 3 brushes that are size 2 , 00 , and 000 which are very small sizes but so far i have only used the 000 size and i havent even touched the others and after inking about 8 seperate pieces that are in various sizes and mostly copied panels the point of the brush has not worn out in the slightest wheras any other kind of brush would have become unusable by now.
I also use Windsor and Newton Black Indian ink as it is shellac based and dries very fast so on smudging as i am left handed.
I have found that copying panels that are inked with a brush is a really good way to learn how the various tecniques and just keep doing it and doing it.I copy Belardinelli as i love that style of inking plus i am a massive fan of his work.
Its fucking difficult and i use the F word because it is by far the most difficult thing i have ever learnt but the more you do the better you get even though the learning curve is painful and involves lots of repetition.I am used to using paint brushes as i have done lots of painting and i can do signwriting so perhaps that helped a bit.
I have tried using a ruler on its edge to guide the brush to ink straight lines but i find it awkward and unwieldy and sometimes it slips which is a pain so my solution to this is to cut a length of 1" square timber to about 6 or 7 inches and flatten off one of its edges so that rests on the paper which will give you a left and a right side that clears the paper and gives you 2 edges to run the brush up and down.
I'm at a bit of a loss with inking. Way, way back I used to use Rotring and Staedtler pens. I don't have the patience for that. Then I switched to brushes. I bought some brush pens recently but I don't like the feel of them as I like the resistance of pens.
At the moment I'm most comfortable with Photoshop and Wacom but have to resist zooming in too much and overdoing it with details with the tighter stuff – and curves can be a pain.
Must keep experimenting but I'm just not finding the time lately.
Having recently invested in a couple of brushes and ink, (but missing this thread completely), I'm off to try PJ's brush-with-ruler tip as it sounds like the sort of thing I could use a lot. Cheers PJ!
Brushes and ink / dip pens way to volatile! I spent too many years trying to get them to see things my way. Brush pen, Edding pens and makers every time now.
HAH! Lack of volatility is EXACTLY why I prefer indian ink/brushes/dip pens - anything put on the page with those tools will stay black, whereas markers/pens/etc have alarming habits of colour shifting and doing all sorts of horrible things...
-pj
I always preferred pens, just regular fine tip pigment markers. I had to almost draw each image twice, having to sculpt the defining lines and then fill them with solid black. Since getting my Wacom and Photoshop, I've never looked back, being able to have the flexibility of a brush but the feel of a pen. Takes a good bit of getting used to, especially working exclusively in PS, but no danger of spilling ink, water and no mountain of eraser dust. Not for everyone but I'd highly recommend it.
I used to use Rotring pens and a crow quill for all my inking purposes until I got so frustrated with them clogging,spattering and breaking. I knew it was time for me to go digital when I was using more whiteout than indian ink.
I have experimented with loads of programs for my inking. I gave up on Corel Painter due to it being horribly unstable though it did have some nice inking brushes right out the bag. I really like Photoshop for its inking though the line quality suffers on resizing for print output. Ian Sharman told me very sternly that I should use Illustrator and from a few early experiments (including my art comp entry). I am quite pleased with it though it does require a good bit of fiddling to make it all work.
What version of Painter were did you use Dave? I did my first pro digital inking with Painter and it worked really nicely for me. I use Photoshop now tho because I can do everything there. Manga Studio has a really nice set of tools and has something of a more natural feel to it, not to mention that auto smoothing is awesome. Can't get on with inking in Illustrator. Vectors are great for some forms of art, particularly a cartoony style, but I'm not keen on it for a more harder edged comic style.
The thing with digital inking is that it can often look very synthetic, especially when you see it on the printed page - inking by hand on the whole looks a lot warmer and more natural.
I've got the basic version of Manga Studio, so one day I'll give it a go and see if it works for me.
Phantom - I used versions 8,9,10 and 10.5 of Painter. I loved the free rotating of the canvas though Painter seemed to crash on me quite a bit and set me back more than a few hours work. I'm still figuring out Manga Studio as it comes highly praised but after messing around with the brush tool in Illustrator I'm hooked.
I agree with Radiator that digital inks can look synthetic and that is something that you have to consciously try to avoid (I'm still trying).
I would rather fiddle around with brushes and ink than software any day as i just want to keep things simple.I can see advantages and pluses but i have enough to try and concentrate on just with brushes and having to learn to use software as well is too much to take on.I like being a Luddite.
Also i wouldnt get the effect i want with software and tablets either.
And its cheaper.
Manga Debut 4 is widely available and only costs about 30 pounds. Add up all those Sable brushes of various sizes, inks [I think David Lloyd recommended Pelican ink]plus Bristol board to draw on and frankly thirty quid ain't too bad.
Saves a lot of space too. :)
And saves sables. The poor little critters.
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 07 May, 2010, 08:29:19 PM
Manga Debut 4 is widely available and only costs about 30 pounds. Add up all those Sable brushes of various sizes, inks [I think David Lloyd recommended Pelican ink]plus Bristol board to draw on and frankly thirty quid ain't too bad.
Saves a lot of space too. :)
I'd add that I've drawn more in the year since I made a concerted effort to go entirely digital than at pretty much any time in the last fifteen or twenty years. There's an odd, uncomfortable period while you try to replicate your traditional work process faithfully in digital media, and you become acutely aware of the differences between the two methods. If you persevere, there eventually comes an "AHA!" moment, where your brain lets go of -- for example -- the rigid roughs -> pencils -> inks workflow and you realize that, because you can erase your inks, the division between the pencils and inks
doesn't exist any more ...
Cheers!
Jim
Think you're right there Jim, there's definitely an awkward sort of distanced feel to inking digitally when you start. I still find it a bit frustrating I can't get it quite as precise as my inking by hand and I can't get it as loose as my sketches. I'm hoping though that with more practice I'll get more comfortable with it and be more pleased with the results. Quite happy with how the sketch on my blog came out but there're still some bits that are not quite working for me.
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 07 May, 2010, 08:29:19 PM
Manga Debut 4 is widely available and only costs about 30 pounds. Add up all those Sable brushes of various sizes, inks [I think David Lloyd recommended Pelican ink]plus Bristol board to draw on and frankly thirty quid ain't too bad.
Saves a lot of space too. :)
Luckily i only need the very small sizes 00000 to 0 so they are not expensive @ roughly 3 to 4 quid each.The board i use is very cheap for a large sheet approx 36" by 18" @ 2.20 a sheet.I bought the very large size bottle of ink which is also economical @25 quid
[/quote].
Not trying to contradict you here but just giving you the actual costs.
Quote from: SuperSurfer on 07 May, 2010, 08:38:01 PM
And saves sables. The poor little critters.
Thats a much bigger concern of mine than quibbling over a few quid.I havent looked into it yet but if cruelty/exploitation is involved then its a problem.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 07 May, 2010, 08:46:46 PM
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 07 May, 2010, 08:29:19 PM
Manga Debut 4 is widely available and only costs about 30 pounds. Add up all those Sable brushes of various sizes, inks [I think David Lloyd recommended Pelican ink]plus Bristol board to draw on and frankly thirty quid ain't too bad.
Saves a lot of space too. :)
If you persevere, there eventually comes an "AHA!" moment, where your brain lets go of -- for example -- the rigid roughs -> pencils -> inks workflow and you realize that, because you can erase your inks, the division between the pencils and inks doesn't exist any more ...
Cheers!
Jim
I hadnt thought about that aspect.Your ink and brush become your pencil in a sense.
As Jim said, the definitions kind of get blurred when you work digitally. Using traditional methods, I always worked extremely tightly right from the off, producing pencils that I only really needed to ink because of smudges and the fact the board was pretty mucky. Now, like a number of other pros who work digitally, I can rough everything out more loosely than I ever did traditionally and what would have originally been my pencils are now my inks.
As has been said, it does take some getting used to, and I'm a lot slower than I'd like to be, but I know that once everything clicks into place, my workflow speed will increase exponentially.
As has been said before, once you get the initial outlay covered, there's very little expense. No more importing blue line bristol from the States, buying pens and leads, not to mention the space that is saved.
When Brian Bolland recommended going digital to me, I wasn't convinced, but once I gave it a serious try, I'd never go back.
Sorry, we've gone a little off topic here...
Quote from: radiator on 07 May, 2010, 01:59:02 PM
The thing with digital inking is that it can often look very synthetic, especially when you see it on the printed page - inking by hand on the whole looks a lot warmer and more natural.
I've got the basic version of Manga Studio, so one day I'll give it a go and see if it works for me.
The MS inks I've done look almost identical to some of my brush work - my problem with it is almost the opposite - I want to do clean line inking in it, but I only ever get organic looking inks.
-pj
Quote from: Peter Wolf on 07 May, 2010, 09:20:12 PM
I hadnt thought about that aspect.Your ink and brush become your pencil in a sense.
Very much so. Plus, there's the fact that your pen hand never releases the stylus. so your other hand changes the settings and the pen in your hand becomes a pencil, a brush, a fine pen, a marker pen, dip pen, an eraser with only the briefest pause between strokes.
Don't misunderstand me -- I miss the act of laying ink onto a sheet of A3 Bristol Board, I miss the tactile aspect, I miss actually making a physical
thing. For all I like my digital inks, there's an effect you get from a particular change of direction mid-stroke using a Gillott 303 flexible nib, a thick-thin stroke change and a slight drag as the point of the nib breaks the surface of the paper...
But, realistically, drawing that way requires a level of commitment that I simply don't have time for at present: I can put in 15-30 minutes inking digitally between lettering pages where 15 minutes doing it traditionally would barely give me time to fix the paper to the drawing board clean my nibs (fnarr).
Cheers!
Jim
Quote from: pauljholden on 07 May, 2010, 09:54:06 PM
The MS inks I've done look almost identical to some of my brush work - my problem with it is almost the opposite - I want to do clean line inking in it, but I only ever get organic looking inks.
I'll admit that I haven't got round to investigating the vector capabilities of MS, but I reckon, based on some limited experimentation in Illustrator, that you might want to spend some time with the vector layers ...?
Cheers
Jim
Hmmm.
Recently splashed out on some nice dip pens, nibs, ink and brushes. But when I tried some inking yesterday the line I drew with the dip pen immediately bled and frayed everywhere as soon as the nib touched the surface of the board.
I'm using Hunt and Gillott nibs with Higgins ink on Windsor & Newton Bristol Board, which is what I thought all the pros used...?
Out of frustration I switched to using cartridge paper and although I didn't get as much bleeding or fraying of the line, it was far from ideal and I ended up using a brush and markers to do everything.
What's the deal? What card/board should I be using?
On the flipside, brush inking isn't quite as much of a nightmare as I remember it being, so I'll be doing more of that in future. I think my problems with using a brush before was that I using too thick a brush tip - I definitely remember reading a tutorial that specifically stated not to use a thin brush, so that's what I did and it caused me a few headaches.
Paper is a bit of a problem nowadays just seems to be getting crapper and crapper I'm afraid.
Winsor and Newton used to be great (like their brushes) it's horrible stuff now. I get Strathmore 400 Bristol Board now, problem is you have to order it from the States and it works out about a little over a pound a sheet.
Daler Heavyweight paper is ok, though I don't like pencilling on it as it doesn't take erasing too well. I only use it for blueline inking.
Okay,this might be a really dumb question, but what sort of ink do people use?
I ask as I happen to have a small pot of ink which claims to be "Non waterproof ink - suitable for fountain pens and dip pens."
To me, this sounds pretty appropriate, but the fact that the pot feels the need to specify this makes me think there must be other options out there. So when I go into an art shop, what should I be asking for?
Or am I just over-thinking this? Is ink just ink?
You're best off using waterproof ink. It won't smear after it's dry and you'll be able to use white paint to do corrections over it.
My favourites are Pelikan and FW acrylic.
Winsor and Newton is used by a lot of people, again make sure to get the permanent waterproof one. I find it a lttle bit too thick. The benefit of this is that it'll stay black even when you rub out the pencils underneath. The inks I use are a little bit thinner and can go grey when you rub out the pencils.
Cheers.
I like the sound of this whole 'staying black' thing. I've been using marker pens recently and they do have a tendency to come out a little grey. (the fact that I have to rely on work's unsuited photocopier to make the things small enough to fit in my scanner doesn't help the finished product either).
Looks like I'm off to visit York's resident grumpy art supply seller.
Quote(the fact that I have to rely on work's unsuited photocopier to make the things small enough to fit in my scanner doesn't help the finished product either).
Yeesh! I would try to scan the full size artwork in sections and stitch it together in Photoshop - the photocopying process will ruin your inks a bit.
Yeah, I've noticed. I'm thinking of investing in an A3 scanner, so am watching this thread (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,29661.0.html) with interest.
Quote from: Cthulouis on 16 August, 2010, 01:26:16 PM
Yeah, I've noticed. I'm thinking of investing in an A3 scanner, so am watching this thread (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,29661.0.html) with interest.
It's outside Ant's price range, but PJ recommends the Brother DCP-6690CW (http://www.pauljholden.com/blog/2009/08/09/tools-of-the-trade-the-scanner/), which has the added advantage of printing back out at A3 making for nifty blueline conversion of your pencils.
Cheers!
Jim
Ohhh, I like the sound of that printing pencils blue stuff.
Sadly, I am also on a tight budget. There are financially uncertain times ahead, so I may have to wait for things settle.
I got that Brother printer/scanner thing.
It's pretty good, but scanning wise I found it really difficult to get working on my iMac - it just about works now, but is still temperamental - it's obviously intended for use with PCs rather than Macs.
I've also had terrible results using non-Brother papers. In fact, the printer only actually has print settings for a couple of different paper types which is a bit frustrating as I've got some lovely heavy matte Epson stuff that is unusable on it (it has worked a treat on other brands of printer).
I've been using it to do the old blue line trick, but I still find it impossible to completely get rid of the blue lines once I scan the inks into Photoshop.
QuoteIt's pretty good, but scanning wise I found it really difficult to get working on my iMac - it just about works now, but is still temperamental - it's obviously intended for use with PCs rather than Macs.
I've never had a problem with the scanner on wifi - sometimes it'll not find it first time, but usually works second go.
QuoteI've also had terrible results using non-Brother papers. In fact, the printer only actually has print settings for a couple of different paper types which is a bit frustrating as I've got some lovely heavy matte Epson stuff that is unusable on it (it has worked a treat on other brands of printer).
I've only used bog standard photocopy paper, canson bristol board and some epson photopaper (I think its epson) and they all print lovely for me.
QuoteI've been using it to do the old blue line trick, but I still find it impossible to completely get rid of the blue lines once I scan the inks into Photoshop.
I scan in pure b&w, and, as long as the blue is light enough then again - it's never picked up in the scanner. Others scan in full colour, select the blue channel then convert that to b&w and that should drop out the blue too.
(Hope you don't feel I'm defending the printer - I've had some issues - but they've obviously been different - notably some app that brother installs that was causing constant headaches - and was vaguely titled enough for me to assume it was system related - I eventually dug it out, also the size of the scan area tends to collect bits of dirt like no-ones biz - but running it through the manga studio dust filter usually fixes that)
-pj
Quote from: radiator on 16 August, 2010, 02:55:08 PM
I've also had terrible results using non-Brother papers. In fact, the printer only actually has print settings for a couple of different paper types which is a bit frustrating as I've got some lovely heavy matte Epson stuff that is unusable on it (it has worked a treat on other brands of printer).
Ditto.
Now don't get me wrong - this machine is a real lifesaver - has time and again over the last few months, but it can be a temperamental swine when it comes to accepting varring paper stocks.
Trial and error dude, trial and error.
Ol
QuoteI've never had a problem with the scanner on wifi - sometimes it'll not find it first time, but usually works second go.
Photoshop CS4 has weird issues with scanners - as I understand it you can't scan directly into the program anymore (using File>Import). I installed and uninstalled the driver multiple times and couldn't figure out where the actual scanning software was - I read the instruction manual cover to cover and was still none the wiser. The scanner doesn't even appear in System Preferences so I can't access it directly. After much swearing and hair-pulling, I finally managed to get it to work through Image Capture, though I always have to start, quit (sometimes force quit) and start again 6-8 times before it recognises the scanner.
QuoteI scan in pure b&w, and, as long as the blue is light enough then again - it's never picked up in the scanner. Others scan in full colour, select the blue channel then convert that to b&w and that should drop out the blue too.
(Hope you don't feel I'm defending the printer - I've had some issues - but they've obviously been different - notably some app that brother installs that was causing constant headaches - and was vaguely titled enough for me to assume it was system related - I eventually dug it out, also the size of the scan area tends to collect bits of dirt like no-ones biz - but running it through the manga studio dust filter usually fixes that)
I scan in colour and use Hue/Sat to desat and lighten the blue and cyan, but a trace of the blueline always remains. Doesn't scanning in pure B&W damage your inks? In my experience it can look a little harsh...
Overall, it's a unique product and a great piece of kit and has allowed me a much greater control and freedom over my work. Crucially it does the job I need it to - but at the end of the day it's a jack of all trades and has it's niggles that I wanted to flag up for potential buyers. I haven't experienced the dust issue, thankfully.
Ah, I've been using Photoshop cs 2 - no issues with scanning. (the software the scanner comes with works for me, but is a bit nightmarish )
Manga studio also scans fine within the software
Selecting the blue channel and converting that to pure black and white may help
I draw for pure b&w white repro- so hate subelties of grey in the inks (unless intended). I scan at 600 dpi (which, when reduced at 40% effectively increases resolution by uhm.... 40% ? Is that how it works?) in any case - plenty high enough to get pin sharp inks on the page. (assuming I've drawn pin sharp inks)
What's on my table top right now.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2bgXZQiU5KM/TGvV3sod1mI/AAAAAAAAANI/W8HDZIhz01I/s400/drawing_inking_72dpi.jpg)
http://fta-yellowandblack.blogspot.com/2010/08/tabletop.html (http://fta-yellowandblack.blogspot.com/2010/08/tabletop.html)
Ol
QuotePhotoshop CS4 has weird issues with scanners - as I understand it you can't scan directly into the program anymore (using File>Import). I installed and uninstalled the driver multiple times and couldn't figure out where the actual scanning software was - I read the instruction manual cover to cover and was still none the wiser. The scanner doesn't even appear in System Preferences so I can't access it directly. After much swearing and hair-pulling, I finally managed to get it to work through Image Capture, though I always have to start, quit (sometimes force quit) and start again 6-8 times before it recognises the scanner.
Image Capture stopped recognising my scanner, and after much swearing, hair-pulling, and forum trawling I
finally figured the bloody thing out...
For some unknown reason, my Mac can't find Brother Control Center (the scanning software) the conventional way - it doesn't even appear when you do a search of the entire computer. Even when I finally located the program, clicking on the icon did nothing. It only loads if you click on the
tiny Control Center button at the top right of the screen, on the menu bar, that I'd never even noticed was there before. Works every time so far, touch wood!
I've started using that little control centre on PS5 - and I've set up the first option to show me all the scanner options and to scan it into PS - it's just as easy as having it work from within ps.
-pj
Yeah I must seriously upgrade to CS5 at some point.
£181 from Amazon so it will have to wait till next year.
+++Retro post reactivation+++
Giving serious thought to buying a Brother DCP-6690CW, but failed to bump into PJ and discuss it at BICS.
Quick tech question that's been bugging me: When putting bristol board paper through the printer do you use a manual feed or does it go in via a tray?
Goes in via the tray for me. Tends to leave a mild smudge on the back (actually, two tiny smudges in the centre of the page) where the rollers have dragged the paper in. But they're easily erased with a rubber.
pj
And what weight of bristol board are you putting through?
Cheers, for the prompt answer BTW.
Dunk!
No idea- been using same two brands for a decade (not in studio right now) iirc around 220...?
Brother A3 scanner/printer down to £227 on Amazon at the mo.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001P2DV26/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001P2DV26/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE)
If folks want a Xmas prezzie idea.
Quick question,
I've recently been using a Pentel Brush pen but have found it a bit chunky and it doesn't handle fast flowing lines very well in my opinion.
I just bought a bottle of Seliner India ink, anyone know what are the best brushes to use? water colour or Acrylic etc?
Thanks