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Here's my first attempt at lettering (using Illustrator). Taken from the activites thread over at digital webbing (can't post it there yet as my account hasn't been approved  :( )

Let me know what you think.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 14 June, 2010, 04:32:31 PM
Let me know what you think.

Any chance of a slightly bigger version -- I can't read this one, I'm afraid!

Cheers!

Jim

Ooops! I just realised its a bit on the small side but I'm not sure how to increase the image size in illustrator. I'll post a bigger one once I work that out.

Double post

Quote from: chilipenguin on 14 June, 2010, 04:37:26 PM
Ooops! I just realised its a bit on the small side but I'm not sure how to increase the image size in illustrator. I'll post a bigger one once I work that out.

Increase the DPI in the export options ...

Cheers!

Jim

Its a good start, especially for a first shot at it, and I'm sure Jim will be able to break it down in more detail from a bigger image, but what strikes me is that there doesn't seem much whitespace around the letters in the balloons (of course how much varies with manga tending to go for a lot more), the tails on the balloons are rather long (usually if you can get them pointing at the relevant character you don't need to take it almost all the way to their mouth. Although if you need such big tales it might also be a sign your placement of the balloons needs rethinking) and the flow is unclear across the page (especially in the first and second panels where a number of people are speaking).

Cheers for the crit Emps. I can't seem to get a larger version. I've upoaded about four different sizes to photobucket but they are all being displayed as the same size. I'll try image shack or something.

Success!

Is that really the dialogue?  :o

Anyway I think my points stand but it also seems like you are using a range of font sizes (that first panel seems to have 4 in 4 balloons, which seems unwise) and it seems wise to stick to a standard size and a smaller one for whispering (possibly a larger one for shouting but see what Jim says), plus the ones you'd play around with for special effects.

Yeah, the dialogue really sucks, but that's what came with the art. In the first panel, there are only the two dialogue font sizes (8pt & 6pt A.C.M.E. Secret Agent) plus the critter font (Maneater at 16pt I think). I tried to keep it to just the two, plus the FX font (Charred). I think the only time I used a different font size was for the exclamation in panel 4.

Should the critter font be the same size as the dialogue font?

'Tis a cleanly done job, and no mistake!

The only bugbear I have with the page is hat some of the tails on your balloons look a little awkward and ungainly. It IS a tricky thing to get the hang of, mind - I'm by no means proficient at it yet myself.

I'd suggest maybe trying to make the part where the tail meets the balloon a little narrower, and nudging the tail into place so that it joins the balloons at a slightly more pleasing angle.

Right ... firstly, the good news: that page is harder than 90% of any job you'd get handed professionally. It's a swine -- I've spent about an hour on it, all told, and would normally consider 30 minutes to be a difficult page. Even so, I'd still send that back to the editor with an advisory that they should consider editing down the script because some of the horrible lettering -- particularly the impossible to follow speaking order in panel -- is unavoidable.

The fact that you've managed to hammer it into some sort of shape is no small achievement.

You have, however, missed a couple of script instructions for a start -- the bad guy, Emplate, is supposed to have a different balloon style, and Chamber speaks telepathically.

I've marked up the stuff that immediately leaps out:



I should also mention that the balloons for Trance are waaaay too much -- you have a double outline, a gradient, transparency, a glow and little floating bubbles!

And this is how I would have tackled it:



EDIT TO ADD: The reading order in Panel 2 is the best of a bad job -- what I've basically done is abandon Grunge's "Wow, Rox" line and left that floating -- it's not part of the reading sequence, but something had to give, and it sort of reads like an "aside" so I bumped it out of the flow of the balloons. As I say: not ideal, but I couldn't find a way to get all the dialogue in the order it's scripted, and reading left-to-right without crossing balloon tails or putting a balloon on someone's face!

I think most of the rest is self-explanatory, but if you have any questions, please feel free to ask.

Cheers!

Jim

Cheers Jim! Wow, I wasn't expecting such an indepth crit. Thanks for taking the time. I can't believe I missed the instructions for Chamber and Emplate! Total schoolboy error on my part there.

That second panel was a complete pain in the ass to try and arrange properly. I don't know if someone just threw some text together for the activity or if that is actually the script that the art was drawn for. If it's the latter, then it's really weak.

I knew as I was doing Trance's balloons that they were too effect heavy but I was having fun and got carried away.

So apart from the big things you mentioned, is it mainly just placement that I need to work on?

p.s. Those damn crossbar I's. I went through specifically to find those little buggers. As you can see, I missed a couple.

Cheers again for taking the time.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 14 June, 2010, 08:50:55 PM
p.s. Those damn crossbar I's. I went through specifically to find those little buggers. As you can see, I missed a couple.

If you have Word, you can just paste the text into a Word document and then follow my handy guide to preparing your script for lettering (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,27463.0.html) and you need never worry about it again!

Cheers

Jim

Quote from: chilipenguin on 14 June, 2010, 08:50:55 PM
So apart from the big things you mentioned, is it mainly just placement that I need to work on?

Placement is the key here. The temptation is to look for the emptiest bit of space in the panel and stick the dialogue in that. This then means that your balloon shapes and tail lengths are dictated by that initial choice. However, you shouldn't be afraid to shove the lettering front and centre in the artwork if the story requires it. I can do no better than quote the inimitable Tom Orzechowski: "As I've said before, the letterer's task is not to keep the script out of the way of the artwork, it's also to get the artwork out of the way of the script."

Cheers!

Jim

Quote from: HdE on 14 June, 2010, 08:16:59 PM
The only bugbear I have with the page is hat some of the tails on your balloons look a little awkward and ungainly. It IS a tricky thing to get the hang of, mind - I'm by no means proficient at it yet myself.

The trick with balloon tails -- even curved ones -- is to imagine a line coming out of the centre-point of the balloon, passing through the circumference and ending at the end point of your tail. If you try not to deviate too far from that rule of thumb, then you should usually get a fairly pleasing result.

Cheers!

Jim

it appears our minds are as one on that thing, Jim - that's the exact trick I've been using to get the tails looking right lately.

Might I say what a supe rjob you've made of that page, by the way? One look at it and I can well imagine the difficulties it posed!

Ditto, chico, ditto.

Right. Had a go at one of the other challenges over at Digital Webbing. I've tried to pay attention to what Jim and others had to say about the balloon tails, and tangents and think it is technically a better composition than the last one (it's very wordy though).

So, have a look and let me know what you think (I already can think of a couple of issues with it but I'm buggered if I know how to solve them).

Much better - nice job.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 14 June, 2010, 07:31:54 PM
Yeah, the dialogue really sucks, but that's what came with the art.

It is truly awful. If it was in a TV series that second panel would take about 3 minutes with everyone trying to get their say in - it is like a bad episode of Power Rangers poorly translated from Japanese.

You might be better off trying something that is solidly written. Perhaps have a look at the attempts sample scripts and see if anyone is up for letting you lettering their work.

I've been really struggling to find unlettered sequentials with the corresponding script. The only ones I've found so far are over at Digital Webbing (cheers Jim). I'll need to have a nose around and see if I can find someone who would be up for me having a crack at their work.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 15 June, 2010, 01:00:33 AM
I've been really struggling to find unlettered sequentials with the corresponding script. The only ones I've found so far are over at Digital Webbing (cheers Jim). I'll need to have a nose around and see if I can find someone who would be up for me having a crack at their work.

Here is the link where people are taking a shot at the available scripts:

http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,27411.0.html

Cheers Emperor. Gonna have a go at one of them when I get a chance. Anyway, here's another page that I did today. I'm not happy with panel 2 but can't work out a better way of doing it. Also, the caption boxes look a bit flat to me. Would a drop shadow to pull them out of the page be too much?

Have a look and tell me what you think.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 15 June, 2010, 12:25:07 AM
So, have a look and let me know what you think (I already can think of a couple of issues with it but I'm buggered if I know how to solve them).

Firstly, I notice that you're favouring long lines in wide, short balloons. I know this is a matter of personal taste, but I don't like them. I find much squarer blocks of text, as you'll see below, more attractive to look at. More importantly, I find it easier to place them effectively on the page.

Secondly: a couple of technical issues. You're still not looking for tangents and you need to watch out for them. Also, you missed two crossbar 'I's -- any word processor worth its salt will have a find/replace function, so you should be able to do the script prep I described earlier.

Thirdly: consciously or unconsciously, you're still looking for empty space and then shoe-horning your balloons into that. The first thing you need to be looking for is the way that the story flows round the page and ensuring that your balloon placement follows, or even enhances that. The artist here drops the ball badly between panels 3 and 4, so it's your job to fix it ... if the artist doesn't like that, then tough -- they should have done more work on the layouts.





If anything's not clear, just ask...

Cheers!

Jim

Thanks Jim. I can definitely your points. I think I am just not being confident enough in my page design and you are right, I do keep going for the empty space rather than using the balloons where they would be most effective.

One thing though... How far from an object does a balloon have to be for it not to be a tangent? I went through it and moved as many as I could see (I missed a couple obv.) but I thought it was only if the balloon was directly touching the panel border or whatever.

Again, crossbar I's! I thougt I had run it through the find/replace process, but it must have been another script. I'll make sure the next one is free of them.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 16 June, 2010, 11:48:22 AM
One thing though... How far from an object does a balloon have to be for it not to be a tangent?

The last one I've marked (top of the swing in the bottom panel) is borderline, as is the one with the chap's nose in Panel 3. I didn't mark the nose because I reckon you'd get away with that one. Some editors might ask you to change it, but most would let it pass.

I forgot to mention above -- don't be afraid to break long speeches up into multiple balloons. It's much easier to place three small balloons than one great big one!

Cheers

Jim

Regarding the issue of tangents. I'd been meaning to ask you about that , Jim.

Tangents are something I'm always looking out for since I read through your excellent guide document, as well as other articles and books on lettering.

I've currently got several lettering projects on the go, including one which is giving me REAL problems. The artist has, very simply, completely disregarded the fact that they were drawing a COMIC BOOK, and quite a few pages have given me a very limited amount of options for balloon placement.

I find myself sometimes stuck in a position where I simply can't achieve good placement and reading order without having some sort of tangent conflict somewhere. My solution has been to bloat the bubbles slightly to obscure the problem art.

Would you say this is a wrong approach?

While in no way meaning to knock Chillpenguin's work, Jim's reworking of that swingset page was a revelation.  Fascinating stuff chaps, please continue!

Quote from: HdE on 16 June, 2010, 11:07:48 PM
Would you say this is a wrong approach?

I'm told by real letterers that there's always a solution if you look hard enough, even to the most seemingly-insoluable art/script combos.

Lesser mortals, such as myself, have taken to instituting a hierarchy of lettering rules, which goes something like this (from most important to least):

  Clear, intuitive flow of story.

  Top to bottom, left to right.

  Use the dead space.

  No tangents.

  Tails end in dead space.

  Stay off heads, even hair.

You don't specify what the particular problems are with the art, but using the lettering to cover them up is, generally speaking, a completely legitimate tactic. Witness the scene I lettered set in 1876 where the artist had drawn a standard 1970s/80s telephone on one character's desk. Wanna guess where the speech balloons went first, before any other considerations of aesthetics came into it...?

Cheers

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 16 June, 2010, 11:39:18 PM
Witness the scene I lettered set in 1876 where the artist had drawn a standard 1970s/80s telephone on one character's desk.

Boy are you screwed when the second issue reveals that it's a time-travel caper and the anachronistic phone was a criitical plot point...

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 16 June, 2010, 11:39:18 PM

I'm told by real letterers that there's always a solution if you look hard enough, even to the most seemingly-insoluable art/script combos. [/quote]

Now, this is what I'm inclined to believe myself. However...

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 16 June, 2010, 11:39:18 PM

You don't specify what the particular problems are with the art, but using the lettering to cover them up is, generally speaking, a completely legitimate tactic.
[/quote]

Well, this one particular project is pretty much a combination of horrors when it comes to lettering.

I've got a few panels where there's virtually no dead space - or at least, so little as to make it impossible to place lettering without making the panel appear overly claustrophobic. Simply put, there's a number of instances where the bubbles or captions just don't look good ANYWHERE. I consider myself to be a reasonably skilled letterer, but even so, these sorts of situations are maddening as all hell.

Thanks for the checklist. That gaffe with the telephone is priceless!

Right, after a bit of a break, I have done some lettering (huzzah). I've taken the fantastic art done by James for the sample scripts and lettered the whole thing. Lettering wise, I found it to be a bit of dry experience. It's almost entirely captions so looks really flat. I've tried to keep it as dynamic as possible but I think it's good experience for a lot of comics out there that use a lot of prose style storytelling in this way.

Anyway, let me know what you think (there are bound to be mistakes) and cheers again to James who let me soil his beautiful art with my clumsy lettering.

Good stuff, CP.

I actually did letter this page, admittedly before James tweaked the layout, but for comparison I think it's worth posting here:



The first thing I would mention is that, although my text looks rilly rilly small, on a printed page I think yours will look far too big and this is why you're covering up great swathes of the art with captions. Make sure your AI document is the actual printed size of a 2000AD page (+10mm to give you a 5mm bleed on all sides) and try printing it out. Alternatively, scan an actual 2000AD page in and place the scan on your AI document, then match your text size to the scan.

Other than that, this is coming along really well. I still think you could be shaping your text blocks better, though. I put the line breaks into the text before anything else. It may take three or four attempts to get a nicely balanced block of text, which will then take a well-proportioned balloon. Even then, there may not be space for it on the art, but you need to start from that shaping of the text:



Cheers!

Jim

Thanks for the feedback Jim. Looks like I am making fewer mistakes which is obviously a good thing. One question though about the font size. I used an 8pt throughout which I thought was tiny. Should I be using something even smaller (allowing for subtle size differences from font to font)?

As for the text layout, I totally agree. It's something I am still having trouble with. Trying to get the diamond shape seems to be down to practice. Plus my balloons still are very elliptical. I will continue to work on it.

Should also say that I have run out of stuff to letter (by which I mean art + script). If anyone reading this has some work sitting unlettered and wouldn't mind me having a crack at it, please let me know.

Quote from: chilipenguin on 03 July, 2010, 12:35:14 AM
I used an 8pt throughout which I thought was tiny. Should I be using something even smaller (allowing for subtle size differences from font to font)?

No hard and fast rule for this, I'm afraid. Comicraft fonts are quite big -- I use CCHushHush at 5.5pt, whereas something like Blambot's SilverAge needs to about 10pt to look the same size. There really is no other way apart from printing out your text at actual size, or scanning in a page of actual art and matching the font size to a placed version of the scan.*

Cheers!

Jim

* If you don't have a scanner, I'm told that there are sources on the interweb where one can download digital copies of comics. Place one of these digital pages on your AI document and scale to fit, then match your point size.

Here's a few pages I lettered a good while back.

Would appreciate any comments/suggestions anyone has.

Don't need anywhere as indepth an analysis as Jim has been giving so far.

Jim, thanks so much for doing those... very informative. Very cool of you to give up your time like that.

(http://s65.photobucket.com/albums/h210/brianmanton/?action=view&current=01.jpg)    (http://s65.photobucket.com/albums/h210/brianmanton/?action=view&current=02.jpg)    (http://s65.photobucket.com/albums/h210/brianmanton/?action=view&current=03.jpg)    (http://s65.photobucket.com/albums/h210/brianmanton/?action=view&current=04.jpg)


Problems that are already apparent to me:

- Long lines in some balloons should be broken up into blocks for rounder balloons as per Jim's advice to chilipenguin.
- I no longer think the transparency for the ghost's balloons looks good.
-The stroke I put on the music captions is horrible! And the music symbols could be nicer and simpler.
-Page 1 caption placement in Panel 4 moving to 5 is probably a bit jarring.
-Stroke on balloons probably a bit thick.

Other notes:
- The lettering is big but it's intended for reading on screen.
- I don't think I was aware of the crossbar I's rule when I did this but I think the font (Blambot's Digital Strip) took care of that automatically for me. I can't really remember.
- Lettered with the free Inkscape - can't be pirating all my software  ;)


@chillipenguin - I started doing this for a friend but didn't get around to finishing it.  Also, the creators didn't continue the story after #1 so were no longer eager for it.  If you want the pages (22) to letter I can send them to you (though you're probably after professional pages).

Thanks

Brian

Quote from: chilipenguin on 03 July, 2010, 12:54:40 AM
Should also say that I have run out of stuff to letter (by which I mean art + script). If anyone reading this has some work sitting unlettered and wouldn't mind me having a crack at it, please let me know.

Here's a cool, if somewhat roundabout, way of getting your hands on some 2000AD pages if you're on Facebook. Sign up for the Judge Dredd quiz linked to in this thread (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,29016.0.html).

When you unlock a free prog, take the PDF download and not the CBR -- the PDF will open in Illustrator (it'll prompt you choose a page) with the art and lettering as separate objects. Depending on how the text comes in, you'll probably have to re-type the script, but it's still free, unlettered artwork!

Cheers

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 05 July, 2010, 04:36:17 PM
the PDF will open in Illustrator

Oh, and having just done this, I can confirm that Annie Parkhouse letters at 6.5pt on Automatic leading.

Cheers!

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 05 July, 2010, 04:36:17 PM
the PDF will open in Illustrator

Oh, further to the above, Simon Bowland turns all his text into outlines, which provides a handy reference if (as is the case with some Blambot fonts) the point size isn't an absolute guide to how large the text will be.

Simon's lettering in Prog 1651's episode of Kingdom, BTW, is CCHushHush at 6pt on 6.5pt leading.

Cheers!

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 05 July, 2010, 04:36:17 PM

Quote from: chilipenguin on 03 July, 2010, 12:54:40 AM
Should also say that I have run out of stuff to letter (by which I mean art + script). If anyone reading this has some work sitting unlettered and wouldn't mind me having a crack at it, please let me know.

Here's a cool, if somewhat roundabout, way of getting your hands on some 2000AD pages if you're on Facebook. Sign up for the Judge Dredd quiz linked to in this thread (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,29016.0.html).

When you unlock a free prog, take the PDF download and not the CBR -- the PDF will open in Illustrator (it'll prompt you choose a page) with the art and lettering as separate objects. Depending on how the text comes in, you'll probably have to re-type the script, but it's still free, unlettered artwork!

Cheers

Jim

Done and done. Jim, you are a star.

Further to what I posted last night, this is an excellent way of not only getting free progs (sweet) but also great art to practice lettering. The only drawback is that when the PDF is opened in AI, each balloon and text block have to be deleted and then the script has to be basically rewritten. Bit of a pain, but worth it for the end result.

I've started lettering the Dredd story from the first prog you unlock and so far it's going pretty well. I'm using unmaskedBB at 8pt, so I think the sizing is better than my previous efforts. Plus, I've spent more time on the text layout and balloon appearances. I'll post it up here when I'm done (if that's allowed and not against copyright or something).

Oh and Jim, I sent you a PM about something. Could you possibly let me know if you can help me?

Quote from: chilipenguin on 06 July, 2010, 11:57:57 AM
Oh and Jim, I sent you a PM about something. Could you possibly let me know if you can help me?

Yes, you did. I never spot that little number next to the "My Messages" bit at the top of the page -- sorry! I've sent you a PM back.

Cheers!

Jim

Here we go then, a lettered 6 pager from Prog 1650 (if this is breaking copyright, I apologise but it was free from the Facebook quiz so I think it's alright). I think I made a decent job of it. In terms of placement, I think there are a lot of similarities to the original which either means I'm getting better or I have absorbed the original placement when I deleted the balloons and text in Illustrator.

Let me know what you think.

Excuse me for being a big silly, but what is a tangent (in the lettering context)?

A tangent is created when a balloon is placed in such a way that it connects with the panel frame or the art inside of the panel.

See Jim's tutorial:

http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,26156.msg453037.html#msg453037

As CP says -- it's literally where you place a speech balloon so that it creates a tangent in the proper sense of the word:



Note that it's also frowned upon in the art itself. In Klaus Janson's excellent DC Guide to Inking (http://www.amazon.co.uk/DC-Comics-Guide-Inking/dp/0823010295/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1279002684&sr=8-1), he points out a panel where the circle of a gun muzzle touches the panel border and cites it as a rare example of when it's OK for an inker to unilaterally 'fix' the artwork.

Cheers!

Jim