Just had a crack at the first page of the Dredd Tryout, 'Cycle of Violence' and would appreciate any feedback.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7258534/Dredd%20-%20CycleOfViolence%20p1.jpg)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7258534/Dredd%20-%20CycleOfViolence%20p1.jpg (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7258534/Dredd%20-%20CycleOfViolence%20p1.jpg)
Many thanks for your time.
- JT
A little sketchier than the other images you've posted on here, but still pretty damn good! The layout flows well and the figure work is excellent. Particularly liking the camera angle on panel 2 and the final Jock-esque "mini-splash" of Dredd with gun. Polish it up a bit and work on the fine detail and I'd be more than happy to see that in my weekly prog.
Also, everyone likes a gusset shot, so keep up the good work! :D
Many thanks for the feedback - I'll have a little tinker
I'd love to see this in the prog. There's an abundance of very skilled linework artists around at the moment - many who visit the forum and have had a bash at this script too. They've all had their merits, but it's nice to see a rougher, painterly approach for a change. I'd echo what Noisybast said - it's perhaps a little bit too sketchy in places: elements of panel 5 in particular. Love the first panel, and that last Dredd shot is awe-inspiring.
More please.
Some lovely stuff here JT. Are you looking to tighten up the page from here?
One thing that's niggling me (and feel free to ignore it - I may well be wrong), is the flow from Panel 1. I'm not sure where I'm supposed to go from here. The woman's legs seem to lead you to either the immediate right OR the panel below showing the father. Just a minor thing, which no doubt would be made clearer once the letters are laid down.
More please! :)
It's lovely work - really nice, but I agree that it needs more definition. It's tricky, as it can be hard to retain the sense of motion and fluidity when using bolder lines but as it stands I think it's too sketchy. Lovely storyboards or concept art, but I think comics need more clarity. It also looks like you have spent a lot more time on the last panel than any of the others.
This impacts on the storytelling as distinguishing between different characters is tricky - crucially the kid doesn't look like a kid. Panel 1 is great, but it isn't clear at all what is happening in panel 2, 3 and 4. I know there is a guy holding a kid hostage because I'm familiar with the script but it isn't immediately clear from the art alone, which it should be.
Panel 2 is a great, dynamic angle, but the three other figures are clumped awkwardly at the bottom like they are slumped over - this is the establishing shot for those characters, so it needs to be clear exactly what is going on.
I would say that the panel layout is very confusing too - there's no order that the eye naturally follows across the page.
Just my opinions of course, and don't let my comments put you off as you're clearly immensely talented!
All criticism welcome. Back to the drawing board!
You are ALL right, it is a bit 'sketchy' - I was aiming for 'dirty': the story is about the creation of a psycho and wanted his start to suitably reflect that (though it looks like I missed somewhat!)
It IS more 'storyboard' than 'comic' - I hadn't considered that at all - many thanks.
I'd echo most of the comments above, except that I do feel that the panels have a clear reading order (top two panels left to right, then bottom three left to right, right?). It is hard to see that the headshot in panel 3 is the kid in panel 2, or indeed that the kid in panel 2 is being held at knifepoint (i.e. if I wasn't completely familiar with the story at this point I wouldn't have known).
The art itself is absolutely funtin' gorgeous, especially the Dredd - get the storytelling right and there'll be no stopping you. Maybe for future comment you might want to try showing just layouts first, and keep your undoubted painterly skills in reserve? In any event, keep it up, jtpegg, you've clearly got what it takes.
Quote from: JTPegg on 08 September, 2010, 04:34:33 PM
I was aiming for 'dirty': the story is about the creation of a psycho and wanted his start to suitably reflect that
That's a nice idea and a good take to have on the script. Looking forward to seeing the rest now :)
EDIT:
Quote from: TordelBack on 08 September, 2010, 04:42:37 PM
except that I do feel that the panels have a clear reading order (top two panels left to right
Yeah I fiugured that could just be me... :)
As has been said, it's a little too rough in places. This goes for the fugures, that seem a little vague. Don't know if this is down to the pencils (or similar early stage of progression) or the way its been painted in that chunky style of yours. Besides this, its a great start. I can see the finished pages as being rather special indeed! :D
LOVE the art style, and the sketchyness works for me, BUT the panel flow is very confusing.... I'm reading panel 1 and 2 just fine, but then I feel like Im going backward (reading right to left) for the next 2 panels...know what I mean?
The dynamism of the page is top notch though!!
Cheers.
And GQ is definitely a man who knows about dynamism.
Lettering would clear up a lot definition. You have to think; will lettering give more direction or will things be more confused, when added to; with the assumption the lettering is perfect; the initial artwork?
I don't mind double taking, this because I love atmosphere you're going for.
But, the boy should have been more prevalent, in the second panel; younger looking too.
Great, great stuff there - your use of light is astonishing. Bright bits on Dredd's uniform seem to literally jump off the screen!
Only thing i'd say it lacks (and this may sound a little bit weird) is confidence.*
*(not a good explanation, i know! I'll have a think on this and try to update my comments later...)
QuoteLettering would clear up a lot definition. You have to think; will lettering give more direction or will things be more confused, when added to; with the assumption the lettering is perfect; the initial artwork?
You should always be able to follow exactly what is happening in the story even without lettering.
Quote from: radiator on 08 September, 2010, 08:01:40 PM
QuoteLettering would clear up a lot definition. You have to think; will lettering give more direction or will things be more confused, when added to; with the assumption the lettering is perfect; the initial artwork?
You should always be able to follow exactly what is happening in the story even without lettering.
That's a bit harsh isn't it? It also denies a lot of potential teamwork can do. If I didn't know the story, it'd make enough sense in my imagination, anyway. I'd make something up/ be completely confused. And what if the general idea behind the writing is obscuring the flow?
Actually Krom, it may seem harsh, but it aint.
It's exactly what editors look for when they look at pencils..."can I tell whats going on w/o the words"? If the answer is yes, then the penciller has done his job!
Stunningly good drawing and painting skills JTPegg. I am in awe.
But... I must say I'm a tad disturbed by the opening panel. I find the up-skirt view unnecessary. Sure, it's gritty and shocking – no doubt the desired effect – but this jars for me. I find it distracting and it strays from the script (I haven't read the script but I think it's a safe bet for me to say it strays). Your call of course if you want to stray from it but if you are looking to have a useful piece that could be shown to 2000AD surely it would be more beneficial to follow the script to the letter.
I don't find it easy to work out where each of the characters fit into the scene. It almost seems as if the boy and perp are looking in different directions. I guess their eyes are pointing the same way but it would be clearer (to me) if the perps head was pointing the same way as the kid's head ie towards Dredd.
I also find it a bit odd that the perp is holding the knife to the kid's head. It almost looks as if he is cutting into it. I think it would be clearer if the perps hand that is holding the knife was more visible.
The layout seems unnecessarily cramped as there is so much white space bottom left. I think you could use some of that space and still keep the impact of that fantastic image of Dredd.
Regarding panel flow, I think that is easily solved by dropping the top of the third panel lower than that of the fourth.
Having said that, superb atmosphere, lighting, colour. I like the grittiness of the apartment.
Can't believe I am saying here all the things that really wind me up when they are said to me at work. "Make it clearer", "fill that white space up". But with comics I guess these kinds of things do need to be clear.
Hope you don't find these comments harsh – especially when they come from an amateur. Well done. Look forward to seeing more.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 08 September, 2010, 08:17:40 PM
Quote from: Krombasher on 08 September, 2010, 08:11:00 PM
That's a bit harsh isn't it?
No.
Cheers!
Jim
Quote from: Gibson Quarter on 08 September, 2010, 11:59:41 PM
Actually Krom, it may seem harsh, but it aint.
It's exactly what editors look for when they look at pencils..."can I tell whats going on w/o the words"? If the answer is yes, then the penciller has done his job!
All right. I get the picture. ::)
Hi -
Thanks for the great feedback, think I have learned a great deal from it. Here's a quick revis rough for you.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7258534/CoV%20revis.jpg)
I hope it's a little clearer?
Advice greatly received...
Sorry to say, but I'm now even more confused as to the correct reading order of the panels!
I know it's early days, but the repositioning of the figures in panel 2, while better, is still a little unclear. The guy is hunched over in an odd way - would he really be standing like that? Also, there is no emphasis on the height difference between the two figures - you really need to sell the fact that we're looking at a kid and an adult. They also seem a little small - they would be slightly bigger than Dredd because of the perspective.
Quote from: radiator on 09 September, 2010, 10:36:43 AM
Sorry to say, but I'm now even more confused as to the correct reading order of the panels!
Do you think it would help if I dropped panel 2 BEHIND 'leg' on previous panel, knocking it back?
I've been concerned about those figures in panel 2 since it was first brought up and think I've got another composition that may suit it better.
I appreciate the art looks a bit 'off', but please bare in mind they're doodles dropped over the main page - it's only rough :)
Still at the ROUGH stage: Does this tweak resolve the layout issues?
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7258534/Dredd%20-%20CycleOfViolence%20p1LAYOUTv2.jpg)
Speaking as an ignorant uncreative consumer of teh comix, that works very well for me. Sorry to sound like a voyeur, but I find this process fascinating - some of the subtle revisions I've seen suggested for other pages, lettering placement in particular, have really open my eyes to the levels of skill and judgement required to make this stuff work.
Quote from: TordelBack on 09 September, 2010, 02:01:36 PM
Sorry to sound like a voyeur, but I find this process fascinating.
I'm with Tordelback on this one. It's really interesting to see the page evolve in response to comments and all credit JT for continuing to show work in progress.
And mighty fine work it is - love the Dredd. I'm not qualified to comment apart from perhaps in one area: the boobs in panel 1 are a little, well, pneumatic. Generally they only stand up like that on a prone body when they have been surgically enhanced.
;)
I think the core of the problem here is that your layout is creating a visual flow that is counterproductive to your desired result -- the differing heights of panels one and two impedes the left-to-right reading flow and seems to divide the page into two vertical blocks:
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/Cycle_Flow_01.jpg)
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/jimcampbell2000/Cycle_Flow_02.jpg)
Cheers
Jim
Yeah I think Jim's hit the nail on the head there.
Personally, I'd recommend being a bit more conservative with your page layouts for now (stick to a more traditional grid-like structure) and focus on improving your storytelling.
And apologies again for the negative comments - it really is lovely work!
Interesting: If I were to place a strong, white gutter between 1 and the 3/4 'block', would that have the same effect?
With us reading left to right, isn't the transition natural or must it always be done like this?
Does lettering have a part to play?
Sorry for all the questions, but I'm learning here..!
Quote from: radiator on 09 September, 2010, 08:48:26 PM
And apologies again for the negative comments
None required, Rad!
Mr Pegg is in good hands here - This is the most affectionate criticism I've ever seen :D
THIS is how you wow the forum. Future 'gods of art' be warned - !
Indeed, Mr Crazy. Also, Jims 'refined' layout looks the biz. Can't wait to see this page finished up like only JTPEGG knows how. :D
Great artwork I dig it! are you using a wacom and photoshop? The blood splatters on the wall are crisp and defined but allot of elements are soft in contrast. keep some softness but I'd like to see more details and sharp edges. I agree with Jim_Campbell. If the reader gets lost on the page they might put the book down. This will look sweet when your done. :D
In good hands indeed! Have tried to take on-board all suggestions and I have to say, I am really won over. This is turning into more of an exercise on Comic Layout Basics - thanks!
I've re-jigged the layout a few times and am interested in which you feel works better. I have to say, already the page has 'opened out' more. Feel free to suggest taking a bit from one and mixing with another...
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7258534/CoV%20revisLAYOUT03.jpg)
thanks again :)
Personally I'd go with 4 and perhaps even consider the title and credits in the first panel, in the dead space where they'd go I'd suggest a bloody splash and bullet hole at around head height and smears down the wall to where her body is slumped.
Some other quick thoughts:
- I think you might want a bit more contrast to make the figures (and blood) pop a bit more - it currently looks a little murky
- You will probably want to work in more detail because part of the story is being told through things like facial expression, see for example panel three's description: "Close, Klein, the boy, stares at us with a deep, cold hatred, no fear"
- Panel 2 is your establishing shot for the room but we are up behind the man and his son, so don't get a good look at them. This would help segue across to panels 3 and 4 where he get a closer look at them and we'd know these are the same characters and there hasn't been an odd cut somewhere. I also think we need to see more of the dead body as that is what links us to the first panel (and she is also discussed in the captions).
- As I've said before when discussing the story, the really nasty panel to get right is the last one, as you need Dredd firing across us as we look up at him through the kid's eyes - I think you have got one of the best solutions and it really works with the way Dredd is coming in through the door
I'd have to go with 4 there too.
After reviewing my last post... i've no idea what i was on about! Ignore the bit about confidence, i must have been more drunk than i thought ;)
Looking forward to seeing this finished :)
Superbly painted as it is, I'm not sure why Dredd is pointing his gun downwards. Perhaps the perp is crouching as bottom right of panel 2 is sketched out. That might explain why the adult perp is almost the same height as the kid.
Dredd shot from kids POV as perp crouches behind. Now I've got the new layout, I'll try to rework the pics to make more apparent. Many thanks to everyone who offered their valued feedback and as for those who feverishly voyeured - 3 YEARS, CREEPS! Hopefully have the new page done before you're out!!
All the Best
- JT
I like the small detail of the apartment number : 59d - Crime swoop!!!
Very nice art. I have only one suggestion to add, which is probably down to taste more than anything: I think panel 4 would work better if it was flipped round with the characters against the left edge of the page. This would also allow you to pull it down a bit without the great big Dredd completely overshadowing the figures and would open up more space in the centre of the page for that inset of the kid.
After taking a look at the script here are some things I picked up on. Since your still laying out pages.
panel one: great! but maybe have her eyes staring blankly at us and more junk on the floor.
panel two: "Dredd stands on one side of her body, aiming his gun at a man who
stands on the other side, holding a boy of six or seven hostage." So the most important elements are Dredd pointing aiming his gun, her body, and you already have the man holding the boy hostage.
panel three: zoom in on the boy a little more to show us his expression. Still leaving some dead space for words.
panel four: Possibly from Dredds POV. To tie four and five together since five is from Kleins POV.
Panel five: Awesome! :D
oops... disregard what I said about panel four. :-[
Quote from: The Cosh on 11 September, 2010, 11:59:11 AM
Very nice art. I have only one suggestion to add, which is probably down to taste more than anything: I think panel 4 would work better if it was flipped round with the characters against the left edge of the page. This would also allow you to pull it down a bit without the great big Dredd completely overshadowing the figures and would open up more space in the centre of the page for that inset of the kid.
I was going to suggest that too for the same reason, but also because people tend to subconsciously follow other people's eyeline and those characters are looking off the page to the left. It's okay as it is, but it would probably work slightly better if their gaze was directing us towards Dredd on the right of the page.
As a general rule, characters should look inwards, towards an imaginary line down the centre of the page.
And, yes, version 4, definitely!
Cheers
Jim
I've been having a go with the script to update my stuff. Interesting to see the other versions on the other thread about this script - I've avoided looking at Cliff Robinson's version to avoid getting depressed, let's face it, his will blow everyone elses' out of the water.
I think I've been relying a bit too much on Kubrickesque 'straight on' shots, i.e. shots looking straight down the camera, and the other pages have been slow coming, though I'm still pretty happy with this page.
(http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae48/adrianbamforth/Inks1Small.jpg)
Not surprised your happy with it Adrian, it looks bloody marvelous.
One thing, and it's just me being a saddo, would Dredd hold his Lawgiver like that, Gangsta stylee?
Quote from: Adrian Bamforth on 11 September, 2010, 04:27:27 PM
I've been having a go with the script to update my stuff. Interesting to see the other versions on the other thread about this script - I've avoided looking at Cliff Robinson's version to avoid getting depressed, let's face it, his will blow everyone elses' out of the water.
I think I've been relying a bit too much on Kubrickesque 'straight on' shots, i.e. shots looking straight down the camera, and the other pages have been slow coming, though I'm still pretty happy with this page.
(http://i956.photobucket.com/albums/ae48/adrianbamforth/Inks1Small.jpg)
That's a fantastic layout Ade, great in B & W, did you do the rest of the story?
My only criticism is a personal one -I'm a stickler, sorry- the 90's action flick cliche of firing a gun on it's side, parallel to the ground, is impossible to aim properly- especially after the gun recoils with the first shot, it gets worse- and can sometimes cause a weapon to jam -gravity works against you- a pro like Dredd would never do it, especially in a hostage situation. I also think it looks a bit naff, sorry.
For easy reference, the film that best exhibits gun-play is "the Way of the Gun" the detail to gun-use is amazing, they even counted the bullets that were fired in each scene, showed them reloading each time so it wasn't just boring constant firing but had visual gun-grammar to break it up.
I know it can be easier to see the gun and the character's face when it's done like that but as the title character in George Washington Cable's 1894 novel John March, Southerner, exclaims, "No man shall come around here aiming his gun sideways; endangering the throngs of casual bystanders!",
I'm sure Dredd would agree.
Still a great art job though and I like the Kubrickian mise-en-scéne.
...and no, I don't own a gun.
While i agree, sort'a, re the 'realism' of not holding a gun like that, it does look extremely cool (which is why its become an icon of gangstaography), and in a comic id always go with 'looks cool' over 'real' any day.
After all, justice department has a psi division, which is patently bollocks and a lalaland fantasy creation, so if 'psychic powers' and ghosts exist in dreddworld, then who's to say the laws of physics arent similarly screwy and allow side-on shooting.
SBT
Quote from: SmallBlueThing on 11 September, 2010, 04:58:53 PM
While i agree, sort'a, re the 'realism' of not holding a gun like that, it does look extremely cool (which is why its become an icon of gangstaography), and in a comic id always go with 'looks cool' over 'real' any day.
After all, justice department has a psi division, which is patently bollocks and a lalaland fantasy creation, so if 'psychic powers' and ghosts exist in dreddworld, then who's to say the laws of physics arent similarly screwy and allow side-on shooting.
SBT
I'd usually go with the screwy physics argument but I think it's a bad cliche now, looks a bit naff as a pose and there are plenty of gun owners who know better.
Arguably Dredd ain't no "gangsta" or wear his "britches" at his knees, so don' look cool.
Anecdotal story:
QuoteTimes Sq. gunman held weapon like rapper
By MURRAY WEISS and LUKAS I. ALPERT
Posted: 4:07 AM, December 12, 2009
A Times Square bloodbath was narrowly avoided because the machine-pistol-toting thug who fired at a cop flipped the gun on its side like a character out of a rap video, causing the weapon to jam after two shots, law-enforcement sources said yesterday.
When scam artist Raymond "Ready" Martinez held the MAC-10-style gun parallel to the ground, it caused the ejecting shells to "stovepipe," or get caught vertically in the chamber, the sources said. The gun is designed to be fired only in a vertical position.
If he had fired the weapon -- which had another 27 rounds in the clip -- properly, Martinez, 25, could have killed the hero cop pursuing him and countless others walking through the swarming tourist mecca Thursday morning.
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/side_show_doomed_thug_vct6JLQrWau8DRZpdvdaFO#ixzz0zEnXB9vD
yeah-that's great
Mr Bamforth, that page looks spot on to me. Gangsta blam blam looks cool, so I'm down with it, my brethren! :lol:
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 11 September, 2010, 02:18:55 PM
As a general rule, characters should look inwards, towards an imaginary line down the centre of the page.
Interesting, is that to keep readers eyes on the page? and if so would they be facing toward our right on the last panel to lead the reader to the next page?
Quote from: Dave Hedmark on 12 September, 2010, 02:18:07 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 11 September, 2010, 02:18:55 PM
As a general rule, characters should look inwards, towards an imaginary line down the centre of the page.
Interesting, is that to keep readers eyes on the page? and if so would they be facing toward our right on the last panel to lead the reader to the next page?
Generally? YES. It helps move the reader's eye along to the next page...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hV2G9zm_Ja4/TG68dOT4-4I/AAAAAAAAAOA/LXlwFvHhJss/s1600/Gibson+page+1.jpg)
Forgive the arts roughness, but I'm interested in whether this now 'reads' better.
(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7258534/Dredd%20-%20CycleOfViolence%20p1v2.jpg)
Thanks for the help... :)
Firing a sidearm like that is not on Adrian ::)
Quote from: JTPegg on 20 September, 2010, 01:53:47 AM
but I'm interested in whether this now 'reads' better.
I think the flow of the page definitely reads better, and I like what you've done here.
BUT... this is the bit where you get to tell me to bugger off though - the impact of your first page was better, probably down to the Dredd in the bottom right. From showing Tharg samples in the past, I know that he's looking for "stuff that leaps off the page" and I really think that your first attempt did that a little better. For impact and storytelling purposes, I'd also stick with Dredd coming through the door on panel 2, it's an establishing shot.
It's great though JT, again from experience, I think one of the most problematic things is over-thinking a page (an ongoing phenomena for me actually). I'd move on to the next page, let this one sit for a while and then come back to it.
Noted, guys!