2000 AD Online Forum

somewhere out there there is a very good 'swipe files' showing Ian Kennedy using tracing paper on a McMahon Dredd. So at least he had taste.

Quote from: BPP on 05 September, 2010, 11:09:56 PM
somewhere out there there is a very good 'swipe files' showing Ian Kennedy using tracing paper on a McMahon Dredd. So at least he had taste.

When you're new to a strip, most artist borrow from what has gone before if you're not entirely familiar with the strip. Whenever I've done a 'fill in' issue of an American comic I have HAD to do that, simply because I don't make a habit of reading them on a regular basis.Considering that Ian Kennedy went from drawing ww2 strips for Commando, straight into the sci-fi world of Dredd & did such a bang up job, I can forgive him a little borrowing.

Quote from: BPP on 05 September, 2010, 11:09:56 PM
somewhere out there there is a very good 'swipe files' showing Ian Kennedy using tracing paper on a McMahon Dredd. So at least he had taste.

Here's an Ian Kennedy Dredd from 'Swipe or Coincidence?', a short lived feature on the old McMahon fan site:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm)

And one by Cam Kennedy:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm)

By the way, the voting form on that site is kaput now.

SiGu

Quote from: sigu on 06 September, 2010, 11:28:03 PM

Quote from: BPP on 05 September, 2010, 11:09:56 PM
somewhere out there there is a very good 'swipe files' showing Ian Kennedy using tracing paper on a McMahon Dredd. So at least he had taste.

Here's an Ian Kennedy Dredd from 'Swipe or Coincidence?', a short lived feature on the old McMahon fan site:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm)

And one by Cam Kennedy:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm)

I'd argue that the otherwise wonderful José Oritz swiped that McMahon drawing too in a rare episode of Dredd he did in prog 517:






...but none of these boyos belong in a worst art thread.

Quote from: sigu on 06 September, 2010, 11:28:03 PM
Here's an Ian Kennedy Dredd from 'Swipe or Coincidence?', a short lived feature on the old McMahon fan site:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm)

And one by Cam Kennedy:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm)

There's no way that either of those pictures was used for anything more than basic pose reference.  Does McMahon think he can copyright how someone sits on a motorbike, or something?

Quote from: Jedit on 07 September, 2010, 11:55:35 PM
There's no way that either of those pictures was used for anything more than basic pose reference.  Does McMahon think he can copyright how someone sits on a motorbike, or something?

It's not an official site, so McMahon's not saying anything. I think it's clear that Cam had Mick's illustration in mind, but I think it's equally clear that he produced the image shown without slavishly copying the original. In artistic circles, I think that's regarded as perfectly acceptable.

Cheers

Jim

Quote from: Jedit on 07 September, 2010, 11:55:35 PM

Quote from: sigu on 06 September, 2010, 11:28:03 PM
Here's an Ian Kennedy Dredd from 'Swipe or Coincidence?', a short lived feature on the old McMahon fan site:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm)

And one by Cam Kennedy:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm)

There's no way that either of those pictures was used for anything more than basic pose reference.  Does McMahon think he can copyright how someone sits on a motorbike, or something?

Swipe files are rarely a litigious thing but a bit of fun that shows how artists influence each other, unless it's blatant art rip-offs such as Brian Bollands recent case with Icelandic artist Erró.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 08 September, 2010, 12:00:36 AM

Quote from: Jedit on 07 September, 2010, 11:55:35 PM
There's no way that either of those pictures was used for anything more than basic pose reference.  Does McMahon think he can copyright how someone sits on a motorbike, or something?

It's not an official site, so McMahon's not saying anything. I think it's clear that Cam had Mick's illustration in mind, but I think it's equally clear that he produced the image shown without slavishly copying the original. In artistic circles, I think that's regarded as perfectly acceptable.

Also it might say something about the comics production conveyor belt back in the day - Dredd artists were often told to make their work look like McMahon's to get a more consistent feel to the series. I do wonder how big an influence adding the credits on a story where for giving the artists room to use their own distinctive styles.

So it wouldn't be a surprise to find out they were given files of reference material containing iconic poses or even that they were told "we want it like this."

Quote from: Garageman on 07 September, 2010, 12:11:39 AM

Quote from: sigu on 06 September, 2010, 11:28:03 PM

Quote from: BPP on 05 September, 2010, 11:09:56 PM
somewhere out there there is a very good 'swipe files' showing Ian Kennedy using tracing paper on a McMahon Dredd. So at least he had taste.

Here's an Ian Kennedy Dredd from 'Swipe or Coincidence?', a short lived feature on the old McMahon fan site:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm)

And one by Cam Kennedy:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm)

I'd argue that the otherwise wonderful José Oritz swiped that McMahon drawing too in a rare episode of Dredd he did in prog 517:



...but none of these boyos belong in a worst art thread.

And you get a namecheck here:

www.bleedingcool.com/2010/09/08/swipe-file-mike-mcmahons-dredd-and-everybody-elses/

Quote from: Emperor

www.bleedingcool.com/2010/09/08/swipe-file-mike-mcmahons-dredd-and-everybody-elses/

You'd think Rich would say "Hello" on here some time...

;-)

M@

Quote from: Banners on 08 September, 2010, 03:19:59 PM

Quote from: Emperor

www.bleedingcool.com/2010/09/08/swipe-file-mike-mcmahons-dredd-and-everybody-elses/

You'd think Rich would say "Hello" on here some time...

;-)

M@

He's too busy posting poorly-received comic/ film gossip on popbitch1
(Hi Rich, if yer reading).

Quote from: Emperor on 08 September, 2010, 02:50:39 PM

And you get a namecheck here:

www.bleedingcool.com/2010/09/08/swipe-file-mike-mcmahons-dredd-and-everybody-elses/

Nice, look at me Ma!

Quote from: Emperor on 08 September, 2010, 02:50:39 PM

Quote from: Garageman on 07 September, 2010, 12:11:39 AM

Quote from: sigu on 06 September, 2010, 11:28:03 PM

Quote from: BPP on 05 September, 2010, 11:09:56 PM
somewhere out there there is a very good 'swipe files' showing Ian Kennedy using tracing paper on a McMahon Dredd. So at least he had taste.

Here's an Ian Kennedy Dredd from 'Swipe or Coincidence?', a short lived feature on the old McMahon fan site:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe.htm)

And one by Cam Kennedy:
http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm (http://www.2000ad.nu/mcmahon/stf/swipe1.htm)

I'd argue that the otherwise wonderful José Oritz swiped that McMahon drawing too in a rare episode of Dredd he did in prog 517:



...but none of these boyos belong in a worst art thread.

And you get a namecheck here:

www.bleedingcool.com/2010/09/08/swipe-file-mike-mcmahons-dredd-and-everybody-elses/

While digging up art to take part in the current 'Influence' art meme, I was looking for some Brett Ewin's art (I remember his Rogue being something I greatly loved at the time)

Anyhue, I discovered this:

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=108857&GSub=10042

It wouldn't surprise me a great deal, if, at the time, the 2000Ad editorial put out certain poses and expected artists to use/reuse them.

-pj
(ps ditto, this doesn't belong in a worst art thread...)

Good find!

Quote from: pauljholden on 08 September, 2010, 09:37:42 PM
(ps ditto, this doesn't belong in a worst art thread...)

you are right it doesn't fit, I can split it off - any preference for the name?

Cam was quite obviously a McMahon-type artist on Dredd, style-wise. As that pic shows. But he's bloody marvellous anyway.

Quote from: pauljholden on 08 September, 2010, 09:37:42 PM
It wouldn't surprise me a great deal, if, at the time, the 2000Ad editorial put out certain poses and expected artists to use/reuse them.

I would think that is almost guaranteed. I remember some of Brett Ewins early Rogue Trooper episodes where he quite simply 'traced' particular Gibbons images...clearly this wasn't because he couldn't draw, so I can only assume it was because editorial asked him to stay 'on style'.

What IS alarming tho, is that ComicArtFans Brett Ewins page is labelled as a 'try out'... Brett Ewins doing a try out???? wtf?

Notice it is dated 2005. Shame I thought the Ewins droid was also returning to the prog for a second there.






V

Quote from: Staz Johnson on 08 September, 2010, 10:13:47 PM

Quote from: pauljholden on 08 September, 2010, 09:37:42 PM
It wouldn't surprise me a great deal, if, at the time, the 2000Ad editorial put out certain poses and expected artists to use/reuse them.

I would think that is almost guaranteed. I remember some of Brett Ewins early Rogue Trooper episodes where he quite simply 'traced' particular Gibbons images...clearly this wasn't because he couldn't draw, so I can only assume it was because editorial asked him to stay 'on style'.

Reading between the lines, Ewins seems to be the principle target of McMahon's censored 'Dredd and the Bloodsuckers' page from 'Tharg's Head Revisited'.

Whether that's fair or not is another matter.

Quote from: The Corinthian on 08 September, 2010, 10:56:58 PM
Whether that's fair or not is another matter.

McMahon has said (in TPO, unless I hallucinated the whole thing) that he very specifically targetted 'Bloodsuckers' at an artist called (ahem) "Bratt", and singularly mentioned the cover for a Judge Dredd RPG scenario -- I suspect it's 'Judgement Day' which is, let's face it, a straight trace of the central Dredd element:





Cheers

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell
McMahon has said (in TPO, unless I hallucinated the whole thing) that he very specifically targetted 'Bloodsuckers' at an artist called (ahem) "Bratt"...

Heh...



M@

Good find - where did that come from?

Quote from: Emperor on 08 September, 2010, 09:39:43 PM
Good find!

Quote from: pauljholden on 08 September, 2010, 09:37:42 PM
(ps ditto, this doesn't belong in a worst art thread...)

you are right it doesn't fit, I can split it off - any preference for the name?

And split.

Err.. what witch-craft is this? I never started this thread.

Rather cheeky of whichever mod moved it to place it in my name. The comment was only an aside and i dont really want to be seen as knocking Ian Kennedy in a thread by itself.

Too late, you spawned it.

Quote from: Garageman on 09 September, 2010, 12:03:39 AM
Too late, you spawned it.

He he spawned it pnwed it, or something.

Quote from: pauljholden on 08 September, 2010, 09:37:42 PM

www.bleedingcool.com/2010/09/08/swipe-file-mike-mcmahons-dredd-and-everybody-elses/

While digging up art to take part in the current 'Influence' art meme, I was looking for some Brett Ewin's art (I remember his Rogue being something I greatly loved at the time)

Ha. Interesting, as yesterday I was trying to find this which I strayed across a couple of days ago, but Barney seemed to be down (or perhaps it was my pesky internet connection).

http://www.2000ad.org/artwork/dredd_brette2.jpg (http://www.2000ad.org/artwork/dredd_brette2.jpg)

Maybe editors did ask artists to base artwork on that of other artists but IIRC McMahon was pretty riled at the Dredd board game (?) box cover art by Brett Ewins which copied McMahon's iconic Cursed Earth front cover.

(Oh, bloody hell I see someone beat me to that one – there always has to be someone more nerdy than me!)

Regarding styles, didn't Ian Gibson once comment that he went for the McMahon version of Dredd as opposed to the Bolland version as a tribute to McMahon who was ill at the time? Or something like that – but don't quote me!

Don't all Dredds still fall into those two categories? The McMahon or the Bolland version? Might be worth thinking about that one.

early Bolland Dredd looks like (even earlier) Gibson Dredd - the spherical helmet and wide visor, the small shoulder pad and the way the eagle sits.

Its Ezquerra-Gibson-McMahon-McCarthy (BIG SKOOL)

vs

Smith-Bolland=Turner-Cooper (STRAIGHT LINES)

no contest.

Quote from: SuperSurfer on 09 September, 2010, 12:14:01 AM
Maybe editors did ask artists to base artwork on that of other artists but IIRC McMahon was pretty riled at the Dredd board game (?) box cover art by Brett Ewins which copied McMahon's iconic Cursed Earth front cover.

I don't know Mike MacMahon personally (so maybe someone should quiz Rufus on this specific point) so I don't know exactly how annoyed he was at the whole swiping thing, but since he went to the effort of creating that infamous satire strip on the subject, I think it's fair to say he was more than a tad miffed. But to be honest, I think he's got a bit of a nerve to be so uppity.. when he started on Dredd he was borrowing heavily from Esquerra's style, even if he didn't actually copy Carlos's drawings. So much so, that when images from Carlos's original discarded strip were dropped into Machmahon strips, the join was seamless.

I suppose you could argue that when MacMahon did it he was a young illustrator finding his way in the industry, & he soon developed his own style, whereas Ewins was already an established pro when he did the games cover, but even so... borrowing from artists is something that goes on all the time in this industry. I have seen poses lifted directly from my owm work by arists who are far more established than me.. & to be honest, I took it as a huge compliment.

Quote from: Staz Johnson on 09 September, 2010, 10:46:25 AMwhen he started on Dredd he was borrowing heavily from Esquerra's style, even if he didn't actually copy Carlos's drawings.

I'm very vague on the details, but wasn't the use of Ezquerra's style requested at an editorial level, rather than McMahon just mimicking Ezquerra for the sake of it?

I may be completely wrong on that, but I'm sure someone will be along shortly with a copy of TPO in their trousers (mine are in the wash).

that's exactly right. mike was 19 at the time (i think) and was told outright to ape carlos' style. as greg staples was told to ape bisley's painted style when he started. i think he was 19 at the time too.

'the average age of a combat art droid in north king's reach tower is...'

Quote from: ming on 09 September, 2010, 11:03:56 AM

I'm very vague on the details, but wasn't the use of Ezquerra's style requested at an editorial level, rather than McMahon just mimicking Ezquerra for the sake of it?

I may be completely wrong on that, but I'm sure someone will be along shortly with a copy of TPO in their trousers (mine are in the wash).

Oh absolutely.. I made that point exactly in an earlier post, but my point is, whether thru editorial direction, or paying homage to a creator you admire, or simply to break thru the occasional creative mind freeze, this kind of 'borrowing' is a part of the industry. It's nothing new, & it still continues today.. I've lost count of the number of artists who borrow from Mike Mignola or Adam Hughes or (in the past) Jim Lee. I was guilty of the latter when I renentered comics after a 2 year absense to work in advertising/commercial art. I called Marvel UK who where then at the peak of the whole 'Death's Head' boom, & was told in no uncertain terms.."buy some Jim Lee comics, & if you can draw like that.. & we'll give you a book" . Did I balk at the idea? No.. I went out & bought a copy of the first WildCats trade, & after realising that the trick was NOT to draw like Jim Lee, but infact to ape Scott Williams inking style over the top on my basic drawing,I did one sample page & a few days later was handed a 4 issue mini series. Did I feel guilty? Not a bit of it.. that was what the market was craving, & Jim Lee simply couldn't draw ALL the books that people wanted drawn like that.

Curiously I was reading the Dredd Mega History this week and it mentions how angry Mick was with people swiping his drawings and I wondered at the time who and how. A day later without prompting the board delivers. Well done all

QuoteA day later without prompting the board delivers.

Really? You think so?

You honestly don't think that we're watching your every move..?

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 09 September, 2010, 02:31:07 PM

QuoteA day later without prompting the board delivers.

Really? You think so?

You honestly don't think that we're watching your every move..?

And could you please stop doing "that" James, it is nauseating.