discussed else where in drips and drabs but...
I would be interested to hear a female perspective/opinions on the gender balance in the Meg given the three to two ratio just now, does it make a difference to female readers?
And from Tharg in prog 1703:
QuoteSo I mentioned a couple of progs ago that there's been talk of a pair of titles hitting the shelves alongside this pulse-pounding publication, and while perusing your Terran broadcasts the other week I caught a discussion led by the Kirsty Wark humanoid about the first of these to be launched, Clint. Now, by this point I had already had the opportunity to cast an emerald eye over this particular organ as PR droid Charl-E had come scurrying into the Nerve Centre brandishing a copy, but it was interesting to hear on the TV programme the female reaction to a comics mag aimed specifically at young male Earthlets, and whether they felt alienated by its high testosterone superhero content and baffling lists of hot mums.
I'd hope that anything from the House of Tharg was never so exclusive as to make a portion of the readership feel sidelined. The Meg, for example, is currently featuring three stories with female leads, while this week's cover star is Age of the Wolf's Rowan Morrigan. I like to think that I'm an equal opportunities Thrill-creator, crafting tales for all to enjoy, but let me know if you feel there's something missing. One planet, one 2000 AD!
As I mentioned in another thread Col of TRMoT has been examining the issue of gender (and race) representation in Tharg's output and gives the current Meg a hearty thumbs up.
http://thatremindsmeofthis.blogspot.com/2010/09/quiet-revolution-matter-of-gender-in.html
See also the comments on CLiNT from static-girl and Em-bot:
http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,28428.msg543438.html#msg543438
http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,28428.msg545660.html#msg545660
I actually wrote Tharg about this t'other week.
Rowan seems to be a pretty good character, but is she the star of a thrilling new series of adventures that will run for many years and collected editions, or is she, as she appears, the star of a one-off serial?
I'd like Samantha back, of course, but what I'd like most is a lead character who's neither a long-legged sexpot like Durham Red nor a female version of an established male character, like Samantha, Rafe, Inaba, Anderson, Venus Bluegenes, etc. Lilly Mackenzie certainly fits the bill, but as she's creator-owned, it limits what Tharg can do with her, I think.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 24 September, 2010, 09:39:29 PMI'd like Samantha back, of course, but what I'd like most is a lead character who's neither a long-legged sexpot like Durham Red nor a female version of an established male character, like Samantha, Rafe, Inaba, Anderson, Venus Bluegenes, etc. Lilly Mackenzie certainly fits the bill, but as she's creator-owned, it limits what Tharg can do with her, I think.
I made a bit of a list of female characters somewhere in the comments at TRMoT and I'll see if I can find it. The female character with a tonne of potential is Captain Sarita, when she turned up she was more than a match for the rather inept Jack Dancer and has been off on a solo mission with Omar to rescue Newton and the Chevalier. However, jammed into a large cast, as she has been in recent instalments, she ended mainly standing around in the back looking concerned at suitable points and worried when Jack was in danger. Bit of a waste of a fine character - cut her loose for her own adventure (possibly with a different artist so as not to disrupt the main ongoing Red Seas story - which is building momentum towards... something).
I'm in touch with my feminine side, so I certainly don't object to more female characters.
Especially when they're of the quality of Lilly Mackenzie.
Oh, and no spinoffs. Sarita's not a bad character, and Hannah Chapter's a great one, but I'd like somebody brand new - a new headliner. Original character, original series.
I do like the idea of Red Seas-verse tales drawn by other artists, though. Huge universe, ripe for exploration.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 24 September, 2010, 09:52:48 PM
Oh, and no spinoffs. Sarita's not a bad character, and Hannah Chapter's a great one, but I'd like somebody brand new - a new headliner. Original character, original series.
You're doing this on purpose ;) Although I do agree.
I'd also like to see the return of Tyranny Rex (or at least a trade of the older stories, Dillon's art stands up very nicely) or Rose O'Rion (soon to reappear in Zarjaz I believe), although not Synnamon (or the Spacegirls or Valkyries, if it needed saying). Although do they count as long-legged sexpots? *
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 24 September, 2010, 09:52:48 PMI do like the idea of Red Seas-verse tales drawn by other artists, though. Huge universe, ripe for exploration.
Indeed, especially as it seems to connect with the wider Edgiverse, throwing the
* If we are making that restriction could we turn it around and asking for a few male characters who aren't tough-as-nails, hardmen who are quick with a bullet and a quip, and also happen to be built like athletes with the unkillability of Superman?** It can't hurt to have more of a range of characters - Mr Ewing, in particular, is doing a fine job on this front.
** Hell if we are going down that road then let's not be speciesist - we seem to be lacking main characters who are weird aliens (Nemesis, Skizz, DR & Quinch, and Ace Trucking) and I wouldn't object to sentient animals either if we are really mixing it up. Variety is not just the spice of life but the path to more varied story-telling opportunities.
Synnamon's main problem was that they created a character who was practically perfect in every way - utterly without visible flaws - and then put her in a sexpot body. She didn't feel like a 2000 AD character. That nonsense in her first series where she was doing some video-game physics and super-gymnast athleticism while simultaneously being a crack shot hitting every target was ridiculous. That commander-type from the strip who was missing his back and had to wear that bizarre suit was a more proper 2000 AD character than her.
Rose O'Rion screwed up and trusted the wrong people. She was a much better character.
Ewing, apart from Tempest, seems to get it right. Tempest himself is like a parody of a '90s Mark Millar character. What was his body count in the last story?
That said, there have been far more successful character launches in the last ten years than bad ones to my mind. Lobster Random, Harry Kipling, Holt from Asylum, Gene from Kingdom, Stickleback, Jack Dancer, Defoe, Ampney Crucis, Dandridge (based on his one-off), Zombo, Ichabod Azrael, plus all the Dreddworld supporting characters (and there we do have a couple of interesting female co-leads, like Aimee and Domino). Tharg should solicit some specific pitches from the droids for female-led strips which will pass the Bechdel Test and give us some memorable leads.
basically what we're all saying is bring back Ian Gibson, right? You're all with me on this gang?
I still think Aimee gets a hard deal. She's flawed in so many ways, I see her as an exceptional anti-hero. Right now she's some Yakuza's biatch, and we all know how that feels. Right, fellas?
Quote from: Krombasher on 25 September, 2010, 12:57:30 AM
I still think Aimee gets a hard deal. She's flawed in so many ways, I see her as an exceptional anti-hero.
Yeah, you're right there Krom. The first series of Low Life, with Aimee centre stage and the comedy kept to a minimum, was phenomenal (and still ranks as one of the best, IMO).
Funny how this topic comes up after Tank Girl was pretty much hounded out of the Meg.
I dont think Tank Girl was 'hounded' out, Steve. It just came to its natural end... and then continued, postmortem, for about 24 episodes, until even people who you'd meet in the street would roll their eyes and bemoan its continued presence.
That, and the fact that it was always badly-written, unfunny bollocks right from its start in Deadline, and should never have seen the light of day again.
SBT
From that other thread:
Quote from: Krombasher on 06 September, 2010, 02:10:49 PM
I meant it when I said they could lose nothing by shelving it between HEAT and FHM. Spread the appeal and hit 3 birds with one mag.
Oh dear. They're called
women, and you're not
allowed to hit them.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 24 September, 2010, 11:34:18 PMTharg should solicit some specific pitches from the droids for female-led strips which will pass the Bechdel Test and give us some memorable leads.
I'm not necessarily sure we need any affirmative action - it can just be a blind spot for creators and drawing it to their attention might be sufficient to ensure the situation is properly addressed.
Equally, just having female characters needn't mean it is any more inclusive (although having an eye on things like the Bechdel test helps) and you can also have female-friendly comics with male leads, although perhaps not your stereotypical hardman leads (although tastes vary, of course).
Also having more varied characters (and I mention above alien leads as well as female one) isn't just good for ladies, as it can open up new ways to tell stories and new angles on existing themes, which has to be good for most readers (well for me). Just look at Damnation Station - the "lead" is a incompetent fop,
everyone is fundamentally flawed and the hardman character is a nutjob who only causes problems and gets himself and others killed. Its interesting and engaging and, more importantly, has a different feel to it than other stories - you could argue it needed a stronger (or possibly just more sympathetic) lead to help hook people into the story but even then that would have defeated one of the points of the series: you never know who is going to die next.
I think Amiee Nixon and Thora have brought a new dimension to the Prog as has lilly M in the Meg.
Altho' I wish Anderson would age the way Dredd has, this could bring as whole new level to the story echoing what Emp said above. As her looks fade do her psi powers fade? as her body heads south and sideways and she hits 'the change'and her caring side slides will she go across to the darkside?
Anderson has 20 years or so on Dredd though hasn't she ? She is certainly looking older in the new Boo strip.
Quote from: James Stacey on 29 September, 2010, 10:10:19 AM
Anderson has 20 years or so on Dredd though hasn't she ? She is certainly looking older in the new Boo strip.
That's a good point- she was, I seem to recall, just graduated at the time of the Death story- that'd make her, what, twenty years Dredd's junior..?
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 29 September, 2010, 10:56:24 AM
Quote from: James Stacey on 29 September, 2010, 10:10:19 AM
Anderson has 20 years or so on Dredd though hasn't she ? She is certainly looking older in the new Boo strip.
That's a good point- she was, I seem to recall, just graduated at the time of the Death story- that'd make her, what, twenty years Dredd's junior..?
I
think a gravestone in one of the annual stories suggests she's born in 2080, which would make her 22 at Death's first appearance, i.e, not long graduated. Which makes her 52 now, whilst Dredd is 66 / 71.
She's looking great for a 52 years who has been inhabited by death! maybe the HRT is working in her favour...
I've heard rumours of stookey use
Come come.... plastic surgery & botox surley.... and a good make up man, vasaline on the lens.... "convincing " people telepathicly she's still hot...lots of options.
Quote from: House of Usher on 25 September, 2010, 11:50:10 AM
From that other thread:
Quote from: Krombasher on 06 September, 2010, 02:10:49 PM
I meant it when I said they could lose nothing by shelving it between HEAT and FHM. Spread the appeal and hit 3 birds with one mag.
Oh dear. They're called women, and you're not allowed to hit them.
Your mom likes it with a woman's weekly.
Not bleakly and not meekly.
Anderson's 52? She's a PILF then, or a PJILF or something.
But seriously - is having a female lead such an issue? What I mean is, if we're all growed up an that, does it make a difference? Perhaps only if we expect certain character traits like talking about the Gilmore Girls and chintz as opposed to trucks and footy.
Saying that a female character is just Dredd or Shimura with lady bumps is surely not a bad thing if you are portraying them as being exactly the same in every respect.
M.
QuoteSaying that a female character is just Dredd or Shimura with lady bumps is surely not a bad thing if you are portraying them as being exactly the same in every respect.
Yup. When I'm writing, I rarely think about writing 'men' or 'women', I'm just writing 'people'.
Things have certainly changed. I was re-reading some old progs the other day, and there were some hilarious letters on the subject of Commander Lorna Varn from Death Planet.
Along the lines of "Dear Tharg. How DARE you have a female lead in your comic...& a Commander! Impossible! ...thought this was a boy's comic...etc.."
I'm sure Buttonman will be along shortly with the offender's name, letter rank and serial killer
Anderson has now reached Cougar stage.
V
Quote from: Proudhuff on 14 October, 2010, 09:01:14 PM
I'm sure Buttonman will be along shortly with the offender's name, letter rank and serial killer
Here you go - Prog 70
"Dear Tharg. I enjoyed your comic up until prog 62, then Death Planet appeared. It has got to change!I do not mind females READING your comic, but to actually have a female commander APPEARING in the pages of 2000A.D is going too far!
Anonymous, Carrigatine, Co Cork"
Jayzus wept. Though not hugely surprising for 70s Ireland, we weren't the most advanced Europeans in, er, the world, back then
somewhere in 2k/meg Anderson mentioned age & '50' I'm sure of it. Sadly she's one of the worst used characters in Dredds world. Hersh on the other hand, has some decent stories in her.
2k suffers from lack of new stories, seemingly anyway. I'm tired of the same 5/10 stories doing the rounds.
yeah where is Hershey? she should be back in from the cold now or at least have a lead in the Megazine, now its The Judge Dame Megazine :D ;)
Quote from: exilewood on 14 October, 2010, 10:48:20 PM
Quote from: Proudhuff on 14 October, 2010, 09:01:14 PM
I'm sure Buttonman will be along shortly with the offender's name, letter rank and serial killer
Here you go - Prog 70
"Dear Tharg. I enjoyed your comic up until prog 62, then Death Planet appeared. It has got to change!I do not mind females READING your comic, but to actually have a female commander APPEARING in the pages of 2000A.D is going too far!
Anonymous, Carrigatine, Co Cork"
A second Buttonman fail in one month (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,30379.msg551517.html#msg551517). :(
Quote from: Judge Olde on 15 October, 2010, 10:35:14 PM
somewhere in 2k/meg Anderson mentioned age & '50' I'm sure of it. Sadly she's one of the worst used characters in Dredds world. Hersh on the other hand, has some decent stories in her.
I agree. I long to see more of Hershey's thrilling desk-bound adventures and maybe the odd political intrigue arising out of a trade mission off-world or to another Mega-City. No, really. I think it would be quite different. What's the point of seeing Hershey in the role of street judge when we already have Dredd, Giant, Beeny, Cloney and Anderson for that? How would Hershey's adventures be any different? I really do think there's stuff that could be done with Hershey exploring a bureaucratic and diplomatic role.
Quote from: House of Usher on 18 October, 2010, 06:29:29 PM
Quote from: Judge Olde on 15 October, 2010, 10:35:14 PM
somewhere in 2k/meg Anderson mentioned age & '50' I'm sure of it. Sadly she's one of the worst used characters in Dredds world. Hersh on the other hand, has some decent stories in her.
I agree. I long to see more of Hershey's thrilling desk-bound adventures and maybe the odd political intrigue arising out of a trade mission off-world or to another Mega-City. No, really. I think it would be quite different. What's the point of seeing Hershey in the role of street judge when we already have Dredd, Giant, Beeny, Cloney and Anderson for that? How would Hershey's adventures be any different? I really do think there's stuff that could be done with Hershey exploring a bureaucratic and diplomatic role.
Tales like The Chief Judge's Man and stories with a more thriller style would suit her better, maybe as ambass dor to Chino-cit with GRennie on writing duites would do the trick.
Quote
A second Buttonman fail in one month (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,30379.msg551517.html#msg551517). :(
Hey, hey hey let's not get carried away here. What we have is a reader dipping into his back Prog and then answering his own question. The Beast deals in data, not random content observations.
The Beast in unbowed and these sniping attacks will only serve to have me witter on about letters even more.
And no one wants
that!
And it was only an hour and a half later and I was at work...
Quote from: Buttonman on 18 October, 2010, 08:15:50 PM
Quote
A second Buttonman fail in one month (http://www.2000adonline.com/forum/index.php/topic,30379.msg551517.html#msg551517). :(
Hey, hey hey let's not get carried away here. What we have is a reader dipping into his back Prog and then answering his own question. The Beast deals in data, not random content observations.
The Beast in unbowed and these sniping attacks will only serve to have me witter on about letters even more.
And no one wants that!
You should consider asking the various web droids around here if you can put your letters database online somewhere - set The Beast free!! Hmmmmm hope no one gets the wrong end of the... stick there. ;)
No one wants to see Butt'man's beast, not after the photos from Hi-Ex! :D
I think both 2000AD and the Meg certainly reached a high point recently and they were never as bad as some other comics for the way they portrayed women. I do wonder why there are far more naked women than naked men though as I do like to keep things equal.
When Lily and Cosmo were forced to strip nekkid for not entirely clear reasons it was Cosmo's humilation I felt the most because he seems pretty shy. Lily, I have come to realise, can handle herself and I liked the unselfconscious way she has about herself.
There are other stories in which I thought nudity gets a little bit gratuitous (that one with the fallen angels erm, watchamacallit and Slaine sometimes) but like I said in the CLINT thread, I don't feel degraded when I read them. There is a difference in fantasy stories and science fiction in the way women are represented - I think Science Fiction is generally more radical. Strikes me 2000AD needs a gritty sword and sorcery tale involving a hard bitten woman lead who doesn't look like a model. Thargy please commission one please, please? (And give it to an artist who understands fantasy's connection to the countryside too but that's off-topic) :)
I have never heard of the Bechdel Test before and googling it made me smile.
Characters like Thora are superb because they are so very complex. Once you have so many female characters, as menitioned in connection to Anderson, you start to reflect the female experience more. You can have blonde beautiful subordinate chicks if you have old women, black women, complex women, silly women, rotten women, powerful women, victim women, avenger women, etc etc etc.
If anything it may be that more variety is needed in the male characters (as also mentioned earlier.) We have miltaryman or fop at the moment. Nikolai Dante is so good because he is more than that.
The best way of making sure you have a great variety in characters is to write great characters! :D
Quote from: staticgirl on 16 November, 2010, 01:07:03 PM
You can have blonde beautiful subordinate chicks if you have older women, black women, complex women, silly women, rotten women, powerful women, victim women, avenger women, etc etc etc.
I think Treasure Steel ticked most of that list with an added lesbian mum tick too! :D
Due to the different way men's brains are wired, a good proportion of the readership would no doubt stop buying if naked pretty men were featured in anything like the same volume as naked pretty women.
Straight men dont usually particularly want to look at pictues of cocks and abs, whereas women dont seem to have the same neurosis about having beautiful ladybits on show.
We're all scared of becoming gay, you see.
SBT
Quote from: SmallBlueThing on 16 November, 2010, 02:25:59 PM
Straight men dont usually particularly want to look at pictues of cocks and abs, whereas women dont seem to have the same neurosis about having beautiful ladybits on show.
We're all scared of becoming gay, you see.
Tch! Not me! I just don't want to see naked men because it reminds me how flabby and out-of-shape I am.
-- Mike
Agreed Mike! And as Swiss Tony said, 'No one likes to see a man naked.'
But seriously-nekid men would be fine as long as the stories were good.
M
Quote from: staticgirl on 16 November, 2010, 01:07:03 PM
Characters like Thora are superb because they are so very complex. Once you have so many female characters, as menitioned in connection to Anderson, you start to reflect the female experience more. You can have blonde beautiful subordinate chicks if you have old women, black women, complex women, silly women, rotten women, powerful women, victim women, avenger women, etc etc etc.
Indeed. At one point there were a lot of female characters in 2000AD but they were all good looking, buff, ladies of action - it would have been interesting to use that toe in the door to sneak through a more diverse range of female characters. Its why I wanted to make Mrs Wordsworth middle aged, you tend to only see women in their twenties and then aged crones (although technically Anderson is middle aged she doesn't look it, the wonder of Justice Department medical care).
Quote from: staticgirl on 16 November, 2010, 01:07:03 PMIf anything it may be that more variety is needed in the male characters (as also mentioned earlier.) We have miltaryman or fop at the moment. Nikolai Dante is so good because he is more than that.
Its a good point - you wonder how much of that is all wish-fulfilment from the gentlemen writers at 2000 AD (been a while since there's been a lady droid knocking round the Nerve Centre, beyond the occasional colouring droid). Of course there was Kawl and Chubby Behemoth... but still.
we're back to the Jilf things aren't we? :D
Janitor I'd like to Fondle?
Quote from: SmallBlueThing on 16 November, 2010, 02:25:59 PM
Due to the different way men's brains are wired, a good proportion of the readership would no doubt stop buying if naked pretty men were featured in anything like the same volume as naked pretty women.
Straight men dont usually particularly want to look at pictues of cocks and abs, whereas women dont seem to have the same neurosis about having beautiful ladybits on show.
We're all scared of becoming gay, you see.
SBT
Well there's Slaine - he's usually running around semi-nekkid. He's more than enough for any woman. ;)
(In terms of women having a problem with beautiful ladybits - it's probably because we've never been given a choice and grown used to it.)
Quote from: Krombasher on 17 November, 2010, 05:18:55 PM
Janitor I'd like to Fondle?
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/229/101202-74722-hong-kong-phooey_large.jpg)
Quote from: Proudhuff on 20 November, 2010, 01:26:28 PM
Quote from: Krombasher on 17 November, 2010, 05:18:55 PM
Janitor I'd like to Fondle?
(http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/229/101202-74722-hong-kong-phooey_large.jpg)
Hmm, more; Janitor I'd Like to Fight! :D
Quote from: Proudhuff on 18 October, 2010, 06:55:15 PM
Quote from: House of Usher on 18 October, 2010, 06:29:29 PM
Quote from: Judge Olde on 15 October, 2010, 10:35:14 PM
somewhere in 2k/meg Anderson mentioned age & '50' I'm sure of it. Sadly she's one of the worst used characters in Dredds world. Hersh on the other hand, has some decent stories in her.
I agree. I long to see more of Hershey's thrilling desk-bound adventures and maybe the odd political intrigue arising out of a trade mission off-world or to another Mega-City. No, really. I think it would be quite different. What's the point of seeing Hershey in the role of street judge when we already have Dredd, Giant, Beeny, Cloney and Anderson for that? How would Hershey's adventures be any different? I really do think there's stuff that could be done with Hershey exploring a bureaucratic and diplomatic role.
I would eat cold law to see that & I'm a veggie
Tales like The Chief Judge's Man and stories with a more thriller style would suit her better, maybe as ambass dor to Chino-cit with GRennie on writing duites would do the trick.
It sounds like the Meg needs rescuing from it's girlie hell- the chatroom has come up with just the tonic-
'BOMBTITS'- a new heroine to sweep away all those tired old nineties feminist tropes.
Guaran-damn-teed slutty action and explosions.
Quote from: Dog Deever on 25 November, 2010, 06:15:48 PM
It sounds like the Meg needs rescuing from it's girlie hell- the chatroom has come up with just the tonic-
'BOMBTITS'- a new heroine to sweep away all those tired old nineties feminist tropes.
Guaran-damn-teed slutty action and explosions.
And lesbian dinosaurs.
Quote from: Dog Deever on 25 November, 2010, 06:15:48 PM
'BOMBTITS'- a new heroine to sweep away all those tired old nineties feminist tropes.
Guaran-damn-teed slutty action and explosions.
AKA Space Girls
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GhcjioMzz9Y/TLNOEC89DkI/AAAAAAAAAKs/Q3mEJFSTAQY/s1600/tank-girl-2.jpg)