2000 AD Online Forum

As been rest today after done Great Winter Run in Edinburgh.

Just notice this film: Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace on ITV1.

What would make this film better? Change the title? It not link to anything in this plot!
Re-casting this Anakin boy? I means he can't acting!
Delete Jar Jar??
Change the script of how to met this Anakin? But this film so dull of that!

I would change everything - a complete re-write. The only characters I would keep are Ben Kenobi, Anakin and Darth Maul but I would make Anakin about the same as Luke was in the first one, and make him less annoying.

Order 66 on all involved. :o

More Darth Maul please.

Oh and don't whatever you do try to give a scientific explanation to the force.

Then a bit more Darth Maul.

I won't get started on my traditional defence of the movie (life's too short), but the title is absolutely apt.  'The Phantom Menace' is (a). the entirely invented conflict the Jedi are drawn into,  (b). the 'something elsewhere, elusive' that is Obi-Wan's opening speech in the film, (c). the Sith Lord that the heroes never encounter - all three of which are effectively the same thing.  Indeed the title in addition to being an homage to the weekly serials of the 30's which form the inspiration for the whole series and this installment in particular, also addresses one of the central problem many people level at the movie - the lack of a clear adversary for the protaganists to combat.  I'd call it spot-on.  

OK, I'll take the bait.

It's an utterly dire film which fails miserably and completely on every conceivable level. The script, on which everything stands or falls, is critically flawed and the only way to improve this shocking mess would be to start completely from scratch.

The only reason anyone ever defends thhis tripe is because it's Star Wars and people don't want to have to accept that their beloved films have been tainted with crap. I can fully understand that but the film (and the 2 other prequels) is a horrible mess.

If it had been called 'Generic Space Film' nobody would have a good thing to say about it but because it's Star Wars, people have a tendency to go into denial about just how shite a film it really is.

Quote from: Lee Bates on 08 January, 2011, 09:31:53 PM
The only reason anyone ever defends thhis tripe is because it's Star Wars and people don't want to have to accept that their beloved films have been tainted with crap.

Or it could be because they enjoy it?  Plenty to dislike, but plenty to like too. I much prefer it to the other two prequels - shouldn't I be defending those too 'because [they're] Star Wars'?

In the normal course of events I'd set out my reasons for thinking well of Episode 1, but it'd be the twentieth time and who really cares, but I do strongly object to being told that I don't like something when I do.

Quote from: TordelBack on 08 January, 2011, 09:43:25 PM

Quote from: Lee Bates on 08 January, 2011, 09:31:53 PM
The only reason anyone ever defends thhis tripe is because it's Star Wars and people don't want to have to accept that their beloved films have been tainted with crap.

Or it could be because they enjoy it?  Plenty to dislike, but plenty to like too. I much prefer it to the other two prequels - shouldn't I be defending those too 'because [they're] Star Wars'?

In the normal course of events I'd set out my reasons for thinking well of Episode 1, but it'd be the twentieth time and who really cares, but I do strongly object to being told that I don't like something when I do.

I'm not suggesting that you're pretending to like it, I just get the impression that certain people are more pre-disposed to forgive it's flaws just because it's a Star Wars film.

Fair enough though, someone's got to like it I suppose.

Maul didn't have enough screen time and Palpatine was by far the best character of the first three films.




V

Lucas is totally getting rid of "I know" this September.

Quote from: TordelBack on 08 January, 2011, 08:29:05 PM
I won't get started on my traditional defence of the movie (life's too short), but the title is absolutely apt.  'The Phantom Menace' is (a). the entirely invented conflict the Jedi are drawn into,  (b). the 'something elsewhere, elusive' that is Obi-Wan's opening speech in the film, (c). the Sith Lord that the heroes never encounter - all three of which are effectively the same thing.  Indeed the title in addition to being an homage to the weekly serials of the 30's which form the inspiration for the whole series and this installment in particular, also addresses one of the central problem many people level at the movie - the lack of a clear adversary for the protaganists to combat.  I'd call it spot-on.  

It may be apt plot-wise but for a Star Wars film, tonally, it sounds wrong and I think this is why it is derided. It sounds more like a title for a Batman, Dick Tracy or Sprit film, it just never sounded right for Star Wars even as a hark bark to it's pulp origins. A bit like calling it Star Wars: The Yellow Peril, some tropes won't fit and are too much of a step back.

They should have called it "Knights of the Republic", a simple, stately name which fits old style and have it be a proper set-up film about Jedi Knights since this would be the first intro so to speak.

Twenty minutes too long, not enough Darth Maul, the pod race was too long and inconsistent in tone, a few too many characters introduced who went nowhere, comedy in serious moments (the final attack on the Droid army/battleship) impacts on the creation of tension, giving a science-y explanation for something that works just fine as 'magic' is unnecessary at best and reduces an order of mystical ninjas to upmarket wiccans, and away from discussion of whether Jar-Jar was too much or should have been in the film at all, Lucas should ideally have people around him to advise against ticking more than one box on any given list of traits associated with racist caricature.

Then again, the sets were good, locales suitably exotic, Maul was a hard nut, filming Palpatine like his true nature was still a secret was a neat touch, as was a sympathetic Anakin, it had an agreeable feel of one of the many knock-offs that appeared in the 1980s following Star Wars' success, and without it there probably wouldn't have been enough material to serve as a basis for the Lego Star Wars games.

Quote from: TordelBack on 08 January, 2011, 09:43:25 PM

Or it could be because they enjoy it?  Plenty to dislike, but plenty to like too.

Maybe, but I've seen and heard too many apologists and some -who normally had a clear head for criticising films and still do it for everything else- allow themselves to roll-over with whatever Lucas doled out for them cos it's Star Wars. A double-standard for sure but I think now most see the failure of those films.

Quote from: Roger Godpleton on 08 January, 2011, 11:23:56 PM
Lucas is totally getting rid of "I know" this September.

Han shoots first and Leia comes.

I'm not as emotionally attached to Star Wars as others are but I personally I quite like the story through the sequels: Of course it's hard not to spoil some of the magic and mystery by elaborating on some things, while showing, fairly realistically, how conflicts and dictatorship are engendered inevitably takes away the appealing romantic depictions of good and evil. Also, inevitably, some roles will be hard for the actors to make their own as Harrison Ford et al could since they are already so defined. Some things are done ham-fistedly though there are real touching moments, such as Ben's showdown with Anakin and parts of his relationship with Queen Amidala. I just simply don't like the way the films were made, 10 x with too much CGI and few hardly any sets. Putting the performers in is almost a post-production detail: It's really not the best way to get the best out of actors.

...watching the inexplicably popular Star Trek (2009) reminds me of how The Phantom Menace et al are at least proper prequels, not just trying to get everyone 'in place' too quickly and mucking everything up with some kind of secondary paradoxical 'alternate' version of everyone and everything: How would fans react to that?

Good things about The Phantom Menace?

The art direction, certainly - the characters, locations, costumes, vehicles and creatures are largely great. Though the direction is stagnant and there's obviously too much cgi, the prequels are still visually appealing (if perhaps a little over-designed if you know what I mean). Phantom Menace is also, for better or worse, a landmark special effects movie - first ever with a cgi main character etc etc.

The casting is solid (with a few exceptions - Annakin and his mum are awful) - from Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman, Ewan McGregor (though I would have preferred Kenneth Brannagh as originally rumoured for the role!) even down to bit part actors like Brian Blessed and Ralph Brown. It's just a shame they are so poorly directed in the film! People like to knock the casting of Sam Jackson now, but I remember everyone getting excited about his involvement when it was first announced.

Darth Maul is a good baddie - though I disagree that he is underused. Less is often more and he's memorable because his screen time is so short a la Boba Fett. I only wish the prequels had demonstrated such restraint elsewhere!

The story isn't bad - it's the execution that sucks. The plot elements could easily be remixed into something good.

Um, it had a good poster?

Think it has good moments, but it is pretty bad. The kid is so so bad I still can't believe it. Alot of the film views like they did one take on each scene and just moved on. The performances are that bad. The whole blockcade thing is also shit.

I liked it when I first saw it and, despite it's failings, I still think it's pretty enjoyable now. Not something I'd say about the other two prequels. I did consciously avoid as much of the preamble to it as possible (I wouldn't even watch the trailer) and simultaneously tried to view it as just another sci-fi film. It worked for me. Unfortunately, the ship of my pleasant surprise was to run aground on the rocks of Episode 2.

Can't really see Goaty's problem with Anakin. He's a punchably cherubic little irritant, but that's the way the character was written as opposed to a fault with the performance. Christensen in Clones is much, much worse. Although he improved markedly by the time we got to Sith.

The thing that annoys me most about it is the way the second half so closely mimics the tripartite structure of Return of the Jedi but, instead of two good strands and one irritating one, you get two irritating ones to one good one. However, it does contain the best lightsaber fight in the whole Star Wars saga. Fact.

Also, I still haven't got it straight in my head when it's really Amidala and when it's her mate.

NB In the interests of full disclosure, I much prefer Star Wars to Empire Strikes Back.

Quote from: radiator on 09 January, 2011, 12:58:25 AM
The story isn't bad - it's the execution that sucks. The plot elements could easily be remixed into something good.

For anyone that hasn't previously, seek out the fan re-edit "Balance of the Force." I see it's now available on YouTube.

Agree with most of your other comments. I actually remember being amazed by the initial establishing shots of the palace on Naboo and a lot of that stuff still holds up pretty well.

Quote from: radiator on 09 January, 2011, 12:58:25 AM
The casting is solid ... Ewan McGregor (though I would have preferred Kenneth Brannagh as originally rumoured for the role!)

It's not his fault, but I have an intense dislike for McGregor and think him a very poor actor. This would've been a real hit with me.

Fact is Lucas with a seemingly unlimited budget could have..should have..done so much better

Oddly enough, I enjoy Phantom Menace the most of the three prequels - it sets up the Star Wars universe well, and I remember it really captured my imagination at the time of where the next two films were going to go.
Shame really they never lived up to those expectations.
The kid is awful in it, though, especially in the bit where he takes off in the fighter. That faint hammering you heard around half six yesterday was my teeth chattering to the point where they were fighting to leave my mouth.
Still better than Haydn Christensen, though!

QuoteCan't really see Goaty's problem with Anakin. He's a punchably cherubic little irritant, but that's the way the character was written as opposed to a fault with the performance.

Got to disagree there, child actors can make or break a movie, and Lloyd was not up to the job.

QuoteHowever, it does contain the best lightsaber fight in the whole Star Wars saga. Fact.

Can't agree with that - it impressed me at the time, but looking at it now, the Maul/Qui Gon/Kenobi fight looks, like all the other duels in the prequels, completely over-choreographed and as a result lacks any grit or tension. Give me ESB Luke vs Darth any day.

I was a bit of a Phantom Menace apologist back in the day - I was so immersed in the hype and merchandise, I was completely unable to view the actual movie subjectively. I had convinced myself it was a good film, and it was only years later that I gave in to the nagging feeling that it is really not.

I've posted it a few times on this board already, but I would urge any Star Wars fan to watch the 'Plunkett' Red Letter Media reviews of Episodes one and two - they are long (so perhaps save for a quiet day at work), and the tone is a bit much at first, but also contain the best, most insightful deconstruction of every reason the prequels are unqualified failures....

Here's Episode 1, part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI)

Striving manfully not to get involved!  And failing...

"Unqualified" failures?  Really?  Failures certainly, but surely not without any redeeming characteristics.

The Plunkett Red Letter stuff is hilarious and very clever, but he does go after each movie for point-scoring and laffs rather than balanced reviewing (not that many of his points aren't spot-on) - his Star Trek ones are brilliant.  I also get irritated when every debate on TPM ends up with someone triumphantly providing a link to that channel as if it was the final word on the subject (not that that's what Radiator has done).

By way of balance, try this equally OTT but apparently serious approach:  http://wondersinthedark.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/notes-on-the-duel-of-the-fates/ (http://wondersinthedark.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/notes-on-the-duel-of-the-fates/)

Quote from: TordelBack on 09 January, 2011, 01:07:11 PM

The Plunkett Red Letter stuff is hilarious and very clever, but he does go after each movie for point-scoring and laffs rather than balanced reviewing

You're better off just watching the third and final part of Red Letter Media's final ROTS review where he encapsulates why the prequels are just badly made films and why Lucas himself was not up for the job. This one is the most on-the-nose from a film-making point of view. Yes it's an opinion piece -nothing in SW fandom is balanced- but it's 100% correct and I've belived these are the fundamentsl problems since I first saw TPM, Lucas is a bad, lazy film-maker. A great shame since his first 3 features are rather brilliant. The 80's killed him.


http://www.redlettermedia.com/

For my money, the whole premise of the prequel series is flawed. Why should the audience invest emotionally in Anakin when they know from watching the original series that ultimately, he must turn to the dark side? Certainly it was vital for Anakin to be present in the prequel series but I think it was a grave mistake to make him the main protagonist.

best Sabre fight is in Jedi, the music, the lighting, the emperor trying to tempt Luke and Vader turning at the end.  Spectacular and makes me forgive the whole Ewok debacle (Emperors finest troops(and remember he does say a legion of his finest waiting on endor) getting massacred by a bunch of teddies with stone age tech, would've been much better if they stayed Wookies methinks).
As for the prequals i quite enjoyed each of them in the cinema when they came out, none held up to repeat veiwings unfortunatly but i can still watch any of the first three and still enjoy them so guess that says what the better movies are.  The plunket reviews are quoite funny and do have quirte a few good points as to why the prequals just aren't good movies, wonder if this guys taken apart the Transformer movies (which i really do like and can watch multiple times) yet for incompetent film making.

CU Radbacker

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 01:43:48 PM
For my money, the whole premise of the prequel series is flawed. Why should the audience invest emotionally in Anakin when they know from watching the original series that ultimately, he must turn to the dark side? Certainly it was vital for Anakin to be present in the prequel series but I think it was a grave mistake to make him the main protagonist.

I think that's a very flawed criticism. If we can only care about "good" characters in films/books/stories, it would be a very poor culture indeed, it's also not true at all as literary history is strewn with sypathetically bad characters. Whether he turns to the dark side or not is not an issue -he is redeemed in the end- there are plenty of characters in film history who have been deeply flawed/bad yet you feel sympathy or at least empathy and understanding for. Peeping Tom being a fairly prominent example and Battlestar Galactica has many bad/flawed characters (Gaius Baltar is unwittingly yet stupidly a genocidalist) who do atrocious things for reasons they believe are good yet you can love them as characters because the writers understand how they tick and how their still human flaws can be used so that we feel empathy with them.

The problem is Lucas couldn't execute that kind of story through either lack of interest or talent. He couldn't dramatise, at least, what could have been theoretically the most important turn in the story, that Skywalker became Vader because he saw it as his best option at the time. That moment never came so no one was convinced of Vader's story.

There's a pretty good eample under our ver noses, Joe Dredd, someone who does what many could consider bad, yet he has a profoundly empathetic story when all is said.


The problem is Lucas not Vader.

The whole notion of you can't feel or invest in a "bad" character or a mass audience won't see your film because the character is flawed is a Hollywood notion, completely untrue and an insult to the audience. It's like saying a "good" character can't be disliked which is also untrue or you must have an upbeat ending. There are no strictly good or bad characters only ones that are good or badly written/played.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 02:02:49 PM
The problem is Lucas couldn't execute that kind of story through either lack of interest or talent. He couldn't dramatise, at least, what could have been theoretically the most important turn in the story, that Skywalker became Vader because he saw it as his best option at the time. That moment never came so no one was convinced of Vader's story.

This I agree with completely.  A convincing transformation would have saved the whole flawed enterprise, its absence undermines all the good stuff that was there.  The Clone Wars cartoon is slowly eroding my disbelief with its repeated dramatisation of both Anakin the cunning hero, and Anakin the man who can't let go, who must be in control of the situation.  That of course has no bearing on a judgement of the films themselves, but on watching RotJ over Christmas I was really struck by how much I now cared for Anakin and his plight, suggesting what might have been if Lucas had pulled it off in RotS.

So... who'll be buying the Blu-rays, then?

I think even in the original trilogy even with what little time/performance we had of Vader, said more about him than the prequels, his interest/care for his son and his yearning search for him -at least there in subtext- was portrayed with the most minimal but right choices. This was all done through a man in a black suit with an affecting voice and we never saw his face till the end*, which was even more powerful, so there really was no excuse in the prequels.


*another example of how Hollywood and film-makers portray lies, this one being you must always see a character's face or at least eyes in order to feel or have interest in them. Dredd of course suffered thes fate of this lie.


I won't be buying the blu-rays, that's what torrents are for. Blu-Ray is only a transition medium to downloads.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 02:02:49 PMIf we can only care about "good" characters in films/books/stories, it would be a very poor culture indeed, it's also not true at all as literary history is strewn with sypathetically bad characters.

Not really my point. I'm in no way attempting to imply that 'bad' protagonists are a bad idea in general, but I think it was wrong for a STAR WARS movie when the original trilogy had previously established a fairly straightforward good vs. evil storyline.

I absolutely agree that a convincing transformation to the dark side would have been a vast improvement, but even then, given that most of the audience had probably seen the original trilogy 30 times over, the prequel trilogy really needed to be able to stand alone... and as satisfying conclusions go, "the good guy turns evil" is not going to be at the top of too many people's lists.

I think my biggest problem with the prequels was the absurd manner in which the "force ghost" thread - the one that deals with how to live on after you die - is completely ignored except for a throwaway sentence in the last five minutes. Like, isn't that most important thing in the entire bloody universe?

Quote from: DrRocka on 09 January, 2011, 02:36:18 PM
I think my biggest problem with the prequels was the absurd manner in which the "force ghost" thread - the one that deals with how to live on after you die - is completely ignored except for a throwaway sentence in the last five minutes. Like, isn't that most important thing in the entire bloody universe?

That and the stupid lengths they went to wedge in R2D2 and C3P0 despite the number of plot inconsistencies that introduced - when a far more effective crowd pleaser would have been simply to remain true to the tone of the original trilogy.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 02:42:16 PM

Quote from: DrRocka on 09 January, 2011, 02:36:18 PM
I think my biggest problem with the prequels was the absurd manner in which the "force ghost" thread - the one that deals with how to live on after you die - is completely ignored except for a throwaway sentence in the last five minutes. Like, isn't that most important thing in the entire bloody universe?

That and the stupid lengths they went to wedge in R2D2 and C3P0 despite the number of plot inconsistencies that introduced - when a far more effective crowd pleaser would have been simply to remain true to the tone of the original trilogy.

Isn't there a comic called "DROIDS" that captured the essence of R2's and 3PO's thread within the saga?

I remember thinking it was quite a cool thing for it to have been made.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 02:30:28 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 02:02:49 PMIf we can only care about "good" characters in films/books/stories, it would be a very poor culture indeed, it's also not true at all as literary history is strewn with sypathetically bad characters.

Not really my point. I'm in no way attempting to imply that 'bad' protagonists are a bad idea in general, but I think it was wrong for a STAR WARS movie when the original trilogy had previously established a fairly straightforward good vs. evil storyline.

I think that's untrue, SW may have been simple but in the end not simplistic. Considering Anakin's turning and Obi-Wan's "point of view" speech, though fairly simple moralising, was not old style good vs evil. The story of those events promised in the prequels never came through.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 02:30:28 PMI absolutely agree that a convincing transformation to the dark side would have been a vast improvement, but even then, given that most of the audience had probably seen the original trilogy 30 times over, the prequel trilogy really needed to be able to stand alone... and as satisfying conclusions go, "the good guy turns evil" is not going to be at the top of too many people's lists.

I really don't understand why "the good guy turns evil" is a problem for a Star Wars or any other film, sounds more like a conditioned attitude than true. The prequels also end on quite a hopeful note -the one thing Lucas got right- that segues perfectly into the OT and I believe many people are interested in tragic or dark character arcs when they are done convicingly as evidenced by the overwhelming interest people showed in going to see "the Darth vader story" certainly it was the biggest attraction for older old fans. The great thing about the concept of SW is that it has a myriad of supporting characters that can balance the darker elements. The prequels should have been as much about Obi-Wan and the Jedi as it was about Skywalker, but it failed to really materialise. It is these other characters, most imporatantly Obi-Wan, that carry the story through both trilogies but badly served in the prequels.

The prequel trilogy was created for a new audience who are now probably at least half of what keeps it going now so any attitudes people had from the OT didn't really matter and the prequels were still economically successful even though they are atrocious films.

The prequels could easily have stood on their own and as part of six film story, whether and when a character turns bad and how prominent they are should not be a problem if structured right.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 02:15:51 PM
The whole notion of you can't feel or invest in a "bad" character or a mass audience won't see your film because the character is flawed is a Hollywood notion, completely untrue and an insult to the audience. It's like saying a "good" character can't be disliked which is also untrue or you must have an upbeat ending. There are no strictly good or bad characters only ones that are good or badly written/played.

Nonetheless, I think most people prefer upbeat endings, and in general they sell better. The most recent example I can think of off the top of my head is when I saw the movie 'buried' at the cinema. It became obvious that most of the audience expected the main character to be rescued at the end (I didn't). At the last moment when it became clear that the character wasn't rescued and was going to be left to his fate there were audible groans from the audience, and on the way out I overheard several people moaning that the ending was 'stupid' or various things to that effect. Personally I thought the ending was absolutely apt.

one best thing about The Phantom Menace is this poster:
(http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/Star_Wars_Episode_1_movie_poster.jpg)

Okay I did says, that boy was really very poor choice, I think Episode 1 should be about the Jedis, and how they met this boy, and the fall of Jedi etc...

Darth Maul was so great at it...

but this film got toooo much CGI! come on, any real at the battleground? Lucas, you got money! the Empire Strike Back battleground was so fantastic!

Episode 2 got bit better and Episode 3 was brilliant, sadly, that Episode 3 was only one DVD I bought of all three films... who love the opening of battle? Order 66? and fight with Anakin and Obi-Wan?? and that Darth Sidious can fight!

Episode 3 has the best and worst bits of the Prequels in it, but is actually my least favourite.  I just cannot forgive the ineptitide of the last 15 minutes, which the entire three films were building to.  If you have 20 years to get two or three scenes straight on paper, it's hard to excuse such a complete flub.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 02:51:45 PMI really don't understand why "the good guy turns evil" is a problem for a Star Wars or any other film, sounds more like a conditioned attitude than true.

There are certain types of story and character arcs which are 'classic' and pretty universal across all cultures in the world because they strike a chord more than others. If you were being uncharitable you might call them 'cliches'... but nonetheless the majority of good stories stick with them, because they work. The origins SW trilogy certainly did. "The good guy turns evil", as a conclusion (rather than a 'middle of story' element), isn't one of them.

If you take all six films a whole, arguably it has been used as a 'middle of story' element... but as I said, I think the arc of the prequels really needs to stand alone, particularly as Darth Vader, important as he is, is hardly the focus of the original trilogy.


To take something like that which isn't a classic story acrs and structures and make it work really takes true genius. For George Lucas to attempting he was overestimating his abilities a tad.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 02:51:45 PMI really don't understand why "the good guy turns evil" is a problem for a Star Wars or any other film, sounds more like a conditioned attitude than true.

There are certain types of story and character arcs which are 'classic' and pretty universal across all cultures in the world because they strike a chord more than others. If you were being uncharitable you might call them 'cliches'... but nonetheless the majority of good stories stick with them, because they work. The original SW trilogy certainly did. "The good guy turns evil", as a conclusion (rather than a 'middle of story' element), isn't one of them.

If you take all six films a whole, arguably it has been used as a 'middle of story' element... but as I said, I think the arc of the prequels really needs to stand alone, particularly as Darth Vader, important as he is, is hardly the focus of the original trilogy.

To take something like that which isn't a classic story arc and structures and make it work really takes true genius. Most modern storytellers are consciously aware of all this because in the modern world it's been extensively analysed and written about. For George Lucas to attempt it he was overestimating his abilities a tad.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 02:57:20 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 02:15:51 PM
The whole notion of you can't feel or invest in a "bad" character or a mass audience won't see your film because the character is flawed is a Hollywood notion, completely untrue and an insult to the audience. It's like saying a "good" character can't be disliked which is also untrue or you must have an upbeat ending. There are no strictly good or bad characters only ones that are good or badly written/played.

Nonetheless, I think most people prefer upbeat endings, and in general they sell better.

Lucas would agree, but why should Episode 3 have a "happy ending"? As it is it's upbeat enough with the saving of the children and even Return of the Jedi is bittersweet.

Give people what they, or the story, needs not what they want, otherwise where is the drama?

Thankfully all writers don't have such notions.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 02:57:20 PMThe most recent example I can think of off the top of my head is when I saw the movie 'buried' at the cinema. It became obvious that most of the audience expected the main character to be rescued at the end (I didn't). At the last moment when it became clear that the character wasn't rescued and was going to be left to his fate there were audible groans from the audience, and on the way out I overheard several people moaning that the ending was 'stupid' or various things to that effect. Personally I thought the ending was absolutely apt.

...and it was right for the story, second guessing the audience has been the downfall of many a film and those who groan may be the few who happen to be the just the loudest.

I wish there was a "like" button on here, next to Tordelback's post.

Quote from: Radbacker on 09 January, 2011, 01:45:05 PM
makes me forgive the whole Ewok debacle (Emperors finest troops(and remember he does say a legion of his finest waiting on endor) getting massacred by a bunch of teddies with stone age tech, would've been much better if they stayed Wookies methinks).
CU Radbacker

Ewoks were awesome*, and entirely in keeping with the rest of the trilogy. Through the first three films, the absolute shoddyness of Empire engineering constantly leads to their defeat. Death Star has a one-shot weak point. Rebels fit their ships up with *Harpoon Guns* because they know the Empire will be stupid enough to attack them with impractical walking machines. Ewoks fit the same role in the final film, and it works because after the stone age, space did not reshape itself such that stones stopped being heavy and sometimes sharp.

"Ah," I hear you cry, "But they were mostly defeated by wood!" Well yes, thematically it works, but that doesn't mean it had to be satisfying. That's what you get when you watch a film about space wizards.

*Why yes, I am young enough to have been a kid during the days of the cartoon series, my first introduction to Star Wars. To some, this may invalidate my opinion. As would the fact that one of my childhood memories is of finding A New Hope so boring that I accidentally kicked my dad in the crotch and was thrown quite literally and forcefully across the room as a result.

(While making this post, I accidentally pressed 'report' instead of 'quote'. I'm not sure if that is a one click function, but if it is, if the mods could just ignore it, that would be grand.)

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:10:51 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 02:51:45 PMI really don't understand why "the good guy turns evil" is a problem for a Star Wars or any other film, sounds more like a conditioned attitude than true.

There are certain types of story and character arcs which are 'classic' and pretty universal across all cultures in the world because they strike a chord more than others. If you were being uncharitable you might call them 'cliches'... but nonetheless the majority of good stories stick with them, because they work. The origins SW trilogy certainly did. "The good guy turns evil", as a conclusion (rather than a 'middle of story' element), isn't one of them.

Are you sure about that?, fall from grace is a fairly classic/cliched trope in stories, can't get much more universal than reversal of fortune or realising that something you thought was one thing was another, the two pillars of ancient storytelling. Everyone loves a tragedy, especially the Greeks.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:10:51 PM
If you take all six films a whole, arguably it has been used as a 'middle of story' element... but as I said, I think the arc of the prequels really needs to stand alone, particularly as Darth Vader, important as he is, is hardly the focus of the original trilogy.

This is because the supporting characters have failed/insubstantial stories in the prequels too, not because Anakin a prominent character who turns to the dark side, as we know.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:10:51 PMTo take something like that which isn't a classic story arc and structures and make it work really takes true genius. Most modern storytellers are consciously aware of all this because in the modern world it's been extensively analysed and written about. For George Lucas to attempt it he was overestimating his abilities a tad.

It doesn't take, a genius, just a good writer who is at least trying to do great stuff and as I said earlier Lucas was always the problem.

Quote from: Cthulouis on 09 January, 2011, 03:13:33 PMEwoks were awesome*,

Ewoks are okay. Not sure about awesome but they sure beat the Gungans who are just downright sickeningly crap.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:20:43 PMThis is because the supporting characters have failed/insubstantial stories in the prequels too, not because Anakin a prominent character turns to the dark side as we know.

Yes, as I said in my original post which sparked this whole sub-debate, Anakin is the main protagonist (not just a prominent character) and that is a problem.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:24:27 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:20:43 PMThis is because the supporting characters have failed/insubstantial stories in the prequels too, not because Anakin a prominent character turns to the dark side as we know.

Yes, as I said in my original post which sparked this whole sub-debate, Anakin is the main protagonist (not just a prominent character) and that is a problem.

There is still nothing wrong with him being the protagonist who drives the story which is supposed to be a classic fall from grace, it's that nothing else backs that story up, not the structure nor the other characters. Once you can convince the audience and can compel them they will except the conclusion of Anakin's turning and the saving of the twins which is the bridge. An audience liking a bad ending to the protagonist -which I don;t believe they did- is not a story problem if it works for the story which I don't see why it couldn't in Star Wars which is my point.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:20:43 PMAre you sure about that?

Yup, pretty confident given then we are talking about a) the main protagonist in a story and b) a fully fleshed out story told in over six hours of visual detail, not a simple proverb or morality tale (where we don't really have time to relate to the characters, we just learn lessons from them).

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:30:36 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:20:43 PMAre you sure about that?

Yup, pretty confident given then we are talking about a) the main protagonist in a story and b) a fully fleshed out story told in over six hours of visual detail, not a simple proverb or morality tale (where we don't really have time to relate to the characters, we just learn lessons from them).

So are you saying I'm correct then that fall from grace -and eventual redemption- is a classic story type?

I still don't see why an attitude of a certain portion of an audience preferring a "happier ending" is reason to steer a story -all ready half told- in the wrong direction.

The prequels could have been written either way, Anakin in them a lot less or a lot more, but with Lucas neither would be done well.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:27:57 PMSo are you saying I'm correct then that fall from grace -and eventual redemption- is a classic story type?

Certainly, but for the eventual redemption you have to lean on the original trilogy, which I don't think was a good idea. The original trilogy stood alone, it din't need the prequels. The prequel trilogy should stand alone too, if only because an audience who has seen the original trilogy 30 times before shouldn't have to watch it again for the prequels to make a good story.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:38:25 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:27:57 PMSo are you saying I'm correct then that fall from grace -and eventual redemption- is a classic story type?

Certainly, but for the eventual redemption you have to lean on the original trilogy, which I don't think was a good idea. The original trilogy stood alone, it din't need the prequels. The prequel trilogy should stand alone too, if only because an audience who has seen the original trilogy 30 times before shouldn't have to watch it again for the prequels to make a good story.

Why should the prequels stand alone in a six episode story? I would be more of the opinion that each episode should stand alone as a good film as the OT eps do. It was always going to be a continuing story and marketed as such. It doesn't really make much sense to break a six part story in the middle with a conclusion of sorts.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 02:57:20 PM
Nonetheless, I think most people prefer upbeat endings, and in general they sell better.

Yet Empire is almost universally preferred to Star Wars.

Quote from: The Cosh on 09 January, 2011, 03:45:13 PM

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 02:57:20 PM
Nonetheless, I think most people prefer upbeat endings, and in general they sell better.

Yet Empire is almost universally preferred to Star Wars.

The one thing that always scupperred the Lucas argument.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:44:29 PM

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:38:25 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:27:57 PMSo are you saying I'm correct then that fall from grace -and eventual redemption- is a classic story type?

Certainly, but for the eventual redemption you have to lean on the original trilogy, which I don't think was a good idea. The original trilogy stood alone, it din't need the prequels. The prequel trilogy should stand alone too, if only because an audience who has seen the original trilogy 30 times before shouldn't have to watch it again for the prequels to make a good story.

Why should the prequels stand alone in a six episode story? I would be more of the opinion that each episode should stand alone as a good film as the OT eps do. It was always going to be a continuing story and marketed as such. It doesn't really make much sense to break a six part story in the middle with a conclusion of sorts.

I had always understood to it to be a nine part story. So it's already broken with the conclusion of RotJ.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:44:29 PMIt doesn't really make much sense to break a six part story in the middle with a conclusion of sorts.

Why on earth not. The original trilogy did not lack a 'beginning of sorts' or it wouldn't have stood along. Luke's story is very much a 'new beginning'. The episode's title 'A New Hope' even says it explicitly. It makes total sense for a new beginning to follow a previous conclusion.

Quote from: The Cosh on 09 January, 2011, 03:46:31 PM

I had always understood to it to be a nine part story. So it's already broken with the conclusion of RotJ.

The killing of the emperor was suppose to happen in ep. 9 originally and only Vader die in ep. 6 though the rumblings filtering out from within Lucasfilm suggest work on ep 7-9 has always gone on.

Quote from: The Cosh on 09 January, 2011, 03:45:13 PM

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 02:57:20 PM
Nonetheless, I think most people prefer upbeat endings, and in general they sell better.

Yet Empire is almost universally preferred to Star Wars.

Are you saying the ending of Empire isn't upbeat? They escaped Darth Vader's trap! Okay so Han is taken prisoner by Jabba, and Luke has to deal with the fact that Vader's his father. Big deal... they still got almost clean away from a trap which should have destroyed them utterly. They survived their darkest hour almost completely intact. Pretty upbeat ending if you ask me.

Post deleted, ignore.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:48:16 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:44:29 PMIt doesn't really make much sense to break a six part story in the middle with a conclusion of sorts.

Why on earth not. The original trilogy did not lack a 'beginning of sorts' or it wouldn't have stood along. Luke's story is very much a 'new beginning'. The episode's title 'A New Hope' even says it explicitly. It makes total sense for a new beginning to follow a previous conclusion.

because the very act of deciding to make the prequels and finally going with the eps 1-6 thing suggests the need for continuity of story, which continued with the twins who are the bridge for both trilogies.

A New Hope also suggests that things ended badly in the previous trilogy, so nothing wrong with a dark ending there, keeping with continuity.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:53:00 PM

Quote from: The Cosh on 09 January, 2011, 03:45:13 PM

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 02:57:20 PM
Nonetheless, I think most people prefer upbeat endings, and in general they sell better.

Yet Empire is almost universally preferred to Star Wars.

Are you saying the ending of Empire isn't upbeat? They escaped Darth Vader's trap! Okay so Han is taken prisoner by Jabba, and Luke has to deal with the fact that Vader's his father. Big deal... they still got almost clean away from a trap which should have destroyed them utterly. They survived their darkest hour almost completely intact. Pretty upbeat ending if you ask me.

just like the twins escaped in ROTS balancing Anakin's turn, pretty upbeat too.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:56:28 PM

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:48:16 PM

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:44:29 PMIt doesn't really make much sense to break a six part story in the middle with a conclusion of sorts.

Why on earth not. The original trilogy did not lack a 'beginning of sorts' or it wouldn't have stood along. Luke's story is very much a 'new beginning'. The episode's title 'A New Hope' even says it explicitly. It makes total sense for a new beginning to follow a previous conclusion.

because the very act of deciding to make the prequels and finally going with the eps 1-6 thing suggests the need for continuity of story, which continued with the twins who are the bridge for both trilogies.

A New Hope also suggests that things ended badly in the previous trilogy, so nothing wrong with a dark ending there, keeping with continuity.

You can't have a satisfactory conclusion in a prequel and still have continuity of story to what follows? News to me. It has been done plenty of times before.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 03:57:55 PM

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:53:00 PM

Quote from: The Cosh on 09 January, 2011, 03:45:13 PM

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 02:57:20 PM
Nonetheless, I think most people prefer upbeat endings, and in general they sell better.

Yet Empire is almost universally preferred to Star Wars.

Are you saying the ending of Empire isn't upbeat? They escaped Darth Vader's trap! Okay so Han is taken prisoner by Jabba, and Luke has to deal with the fact that Vader's his father. Big deal... they still got almost clean away from a trap which should have destroyed them utterly. They survived their darkest hour almost completely intact. Pretty upbeat ending if you ask me.

just like the twins escaped in ROTS balancing Anakin's turn, pretty upbeat too.

The twins are not even born yet, the audience has no emotional investment in them whatsoever (not without leaning once again on the OT, anyway). This is completely different to the ending of Empire, in which the main protagonists largely succeed, albeit with a few more scars than previously.

Empire Strikes Back is resolutely downbeat:

- The rebels are driven from Hoth in a virtual rout.  Do we see any signs that Veer's walker is slowed one whit in its journey towards the shield generator?  Only the planetary ion cannon gives any account of itself.

- Luke fails most of the tasks he is set while on Dagobah, and then fails to complete his training, supposedly ending the hopes of the Jedi (retrospectively we learn that this is the decision on which the fate of the galaxy turns, and how Luke transcends his flawed mentors, but that's by no means clear at the time).

- Luke finds out his father is a galactic mass-murdering Lord of the Sith, not a "cunning warrior, and a good friend", that Ben has lied to him from day one, gets soundly beaten loses his hand.

- Han is shipped off to Jabba the Hutt and who-knows what awful fate.

A chance escape courtesy of R2, and getting a robotic hand fitted hardly counts as an upbeat ending!


EDIT:  Ewoks were a much better choice than Wookiees.  

EDITY EDIT:

QuoteThe twins are not even born yet, the audience has no emotional investment in them whatsoever (not without leaning once again on the OT, anyway).

The fate of Anakin and Padme's unborn child(ren) is the whole driving force behind  the last two-thirds of the film.  They didn't have to appear on screen for the audience to be invested in them.

It fucking sucks.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:59:39 PM
You can't have a satisfactory conclusion in a prequel and still have continuity of story to what follows? News to me. It has been done plenty of times before.

It's not an absolute conclusion -they rarely exist- and was never meant to be but you can conclude that the Jedi are finished and the emperor has installed himself. Making value judgments about what should be happy, upbeat story points etc. is rather beside the point and is demographics rather than drama. The New Hope is born in Ep 3, I see no problem.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 03:59:39 PM
The twins are not even born yet, the audience has no emotional investment in them whatsoever (not without leaning once again on the OT, anyway).

They are the progeny of the queen and Anakin, both central characters. I think it's fair to say that any reasonable person will have sympathy for the survival of children in a precarious situtation especially helpless infants of the main characters, it's human nature.

It's not leaning on the OT either, it's setting it up the next eps of a six film story after all. The problem is still execution rather than basic content. I think if the execution of these stories had been satisfying dramatically we wouldn't be arguing these points.

Quote from: TordelBack on 09 January, 2011, 05:12:28 PM
Empire Strikes Back is resolutely downbeat:

- The rebels are driven from Hoth in a virtual rout.  Do we see any signs that Veer's walker is slowed one whit in its journey towards the shield generator?  Only the planetary ion cannon gives any account of itself.

- Luke fails most of the tasks he is set while on Dagobah, and then fails to complete his training, supposedly ending the hopes of the Jedi (retrospectively we learn that this is the decision on which the fate of the galaxy turns, and how Luke transcends his flawed mentors, but that's by no means clear at the time).

- Luke finds out his father is a galactic mass-murdering Lord of the Sith, not a "cunning warrior, and a good friend", that Ben has lied to him from day one, gets soundly beaten loses his hand.

- Han is shipped off to Jabba the Hutt and who-knows what awful fate.

A chance escape courtesy of R2, and getting a robotic hand fitted hardly counts as an upbeat ending!


EDIT:  Ewoks were a much better choice than Wookiees.  

EDITY EDIT:

QuoteThe twins are not even born yet, the audience has no emotional investment in them whatsoever (not without leaning once again on the OT, anyway).

The fate of Anakin and Padme's unborn child(ren) is the whole driving force behind  the last two-thirds of the film.  They didn't have to appear on screen for the audience to be invested in them.

Not much to say on Empire other than I totally disagree. The characters are in a hopeless situation earlier in the movie - they escape it. A definite upswing as far as they are concerned. Luke's failure on Dagobah is more than balanced by his successful resistance to Vader's attempts to turn him. The final note of the film is a hopeful one as Lando and Chewbacca depart to look for Han Solo, reasonably confident they can rescue him. And with good reason - they've just gone up against the Empire, a local crime lord on a backwater planet is small potatoes in comparison. As for Hoth, the rebels escape with their fleet mostly intact. Yay them. The empire's attempt to 'strike back' has brought about some tough times from the rebels, but on the whole has largely been a failure.

As for the twins - sorry, didn't work for me. The film still centered on Anakin and his unconvincing transition to the dark side.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 11:16:30 PM
Not much to say on Empire other than I totally disagree. The characters are in a hopeless situation earlier in the movie - they escape it. A definite upswing as far as they are concerned. Luke's failure on Dagobah is more than balanced by his successful resistance to Vader's attempts to turn him. The final note of the film is a hopeful one as Lando and Chewbacca depart to look for Han Solo, reasonably confident they can rescue him.

Luke, the central character, finding out Vader is his father is definitely emotionally downbeat for his character. He has just been told his whole life up till then is a lie.

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 11:16:30 PM

As for the twins - sorry, didn't work for me. The film still centered on Anakin and his unconvincing transition to the dark side.

That's all unfortunately a problem of writing, directing and acting rather than story points.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 January, 2011, 11:21:46 PM

Quote from: Mark Taylor on 09 January, 2011, 11:16:30 PM

As for the twins - sorry, didn't work for me. The film still centered on Anakin and his unconvincing transition to the dark side.

That's all unfortunately a problem of writing, directing and acting rather than story points.

A matter of opinion. Clearly we aren't going to convince each other so I say lets agree to disagree on this point.

I think we can agree they are badly crafted stories.

I'm no fan of the prequels, but fuck me if I'm not having that Blu-ray set when it's out in September.

I just have to admit it-George Lucas owns my soul!

Quote from: dweezil2 on 09 January, 2011, 11:28:49 PM
I'm no fan of the prequels, but fuck me if I'm not having that Blu-ray set when it's out in September.

I just have to admit it-George Lucas owns my soul!

Out in September?
I'm there. But only if it is the all singing, all dancing, 20,000,000 disc, six film set with extras.



V

Quote from: dweezil2 on 09 January, 2011, 11:28:49 PM
I'm no fan of the prequels, but fuck me if I'm not having that Blu-ray set when it's out in September.

Then just buy the OT on blu ray...ah, but that won't be so simple anymore. Lucas has deftly ensured that the next generation of Star Wars fans CANNOT watch the OT as a stand-alone trilogy; by adding Hayden Christiansen to the end of Jedi and Jimmy Smits to ANH and other, similar, tinkerings a new viewer would have to have seen the PT to even know these people are. A few years ago my friend showed his girlfriend - who had recently come to the States from Laos and had never seen Star Wars - the OT (he's not a fan of the PT) and when Hayden showed up at the end of Jedi she had to ask who the hell he was!

I would never tell someone not to like the PT. I hate it, I think it's terrible filmmaking - I also dislike the new versions of the OT because the new stuff just doesn't mesh with the old to my eyes. I'm not sure why Lucas won't give us cleaned up remastered versions of the unaltered original films - I have a feeling that no one would care one way or the other about how much he tinkers with the movies if Lucas gave us the choice of the version we'd like to buy.

He's a weirdo.

Quote from: locustsofdeath! on 09 January, 2011, 11:50:34 PM

I would never tell someone not to like the PT. I hate it, I think it's terrible filmmaking - I also dislike the new versions of the OT because the new stuff just doesn't mesh with the old to my eyes.

I think the extra stuff fits pretty well with The Empire Strikes Back. It certainly adds to the Bespin sequence without distracting. The Hoth stuff was mainly cleaning up, which worked well. (I'll admit I didn't notice the problems speeder cockpit frame transparency issue until pointed out to me by the documentary, but it looked good.)

I can understand people being miffed by the extra dinosaurs in Star Wars and the dance number in Jedi... although they didn't bother me much.

As for Anakin turning to the dark Side in Revenge of the Sith, I didn't mind the way it happened.[spoiler] I quite liked the fact it's his own prophetic dreams concerning the death of Padme and his wish to save her that turn him to the dark side. (And the ironic twist that his turn to the dark side actually caused the event he was trying to prevent.*)[/spoiler] There are major pacing issues though. [spoiler]His intentions were good, after all, so seeing him wipe out a bunch of kids just because the Emperor told him too was a stretch too far too fast.[/spoiler]

*[spoiler]Dying of a broken heart while giving birth though? They could have come up with something better than that. I can believe that emotional depression can affect ones physical well-being but not that quickly. Something more drawn out would explain Leia's memories of her mother too. I know they're going with 'it's her adoptive mother' now, and that does fit, but, I think the other works better.[/spoiler]

It's Padme's fate that annoys me most about the Prequels, at least as far as plot goes. I know it's not the main point of the thing, but the Padme established in TPM and AotC dying 'of a broken heart' in three minutes flat hacks me off no end - why it couldn't have been her injuries I don't know.  I also don't see any reason that she couldn't have survived and gone into hiding with Leia to Alderaan, probably in a miserable state.  Leia herself tells us what happened to her in RotJ (so there would be no unresolved ploy threads), and apart from pretending that her first adoptive mother (Breha Organa) died when she was young, or that she has a ridiculous memory that her twin brother lacks, I can't see how you're supposed to square it with the events as filmed:

"Do you remember your mother? Your real mother? "

"Just a little bit. She died when I was very young.
...
Just images really. Feelings.
...
She was very beautiful. Kind, but sad."

'Very young' being three minutes old.  It's a needless contradiction, and an invalidation of the quite moving Sophie's Choice-esque situation implied by RotJ for the previous 20 years - one child goes with Padme, one with Ben.

Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2011, 08:08:36 AM
I can't see how you're supposed to square it with the events as filmed:

Don't bother. Just ignore the prequels completely as the pile of stinking shit they are.

I certainly don't let the 'banged out in one draft by a hack' scripts of the more recent films spoil my enjoyment of the classic originals.

Quote from: Mardroid on 10 January, 2011, 12:21:48 AM
The extra stuff fits pretty well with The Empire Strikes Back. It certainly adds to the Bespin sequence without distracting. The Hoth stuff was mainly cleaning up, which worked well. (I'll admit I didn't notice the problems speeder cockpit frame transparency issue until pointed out to me by the documentary, but it looked good.)

I can understand people being miffed by the extra dinosaurs in Star Wars and the dance number in Jedi... although they didn't bother me much.

Agreed about the Bespin stuff - the windows in the city looked so natural that when I first saw the revamped version I didn't even notice! And the extra footage of the populace reacting to Lando's announcement looked good, too. I also didn't mind replacing Vader's "Bring my shuttle" line as that made him out to be a spoiled loser (though now that we see Anakin in the PT is probably better in keeping with the character - but the Vader we see in ESB is a darker, more brooding and menacing character than we saw in ANH).

I didn't like the new wampa footage though - the creatures didn't even look the same to me, and I found it pretty glaring when the new creature walked on set.

Now...that dance number in Jedi just destroyed the pacing of that scene. Much as I love Jedi, the pacing is convoluted throughout, and this just adds to the mess. There was general tension in that scene and the Jedi Rocks number nullifies that.

And this is what I don't understand about Lucas - when did everything become goofball comedy? Even in the most serious of scenes he feels the need to inject some sort of nonsense, nonsense that's not even as funny as some of the Mad Magazine spoofs I've read!

Lucas' biggest fault in the way he made the PT is easy to see (for me): He couldn't decide what he wanted to do. He wanted a big drama political storyline for adults and wedged in all kinds of goofiness for kids. He should have gone one way or the other. As it is, feels like there are two different films at work.

I don't mind the new Wampa, and my only beef with the Empire DVD revisions is the new Emperor's hologram sequence.  I don't mind that much that the spooky Clive Reville Chimp Lady is gone, but McDiarmid's make-up is horribly slap-dash, the hologram effect is different from any of the others in the OT, and some of the new lines are (even more) clunky and give too much away too soon.  Other than that the effects fixes and extra footage are a definite (if unneeded) improvement.

As to Jedi, I noted recently that the Shaw/Christiansen switcheroo at the end went over very well with the 'new' audience (or subset thereof that lives under my roof).  It annoys me in its illogicality (they could at least have 'aged' Anakin 20 years, even if he 'died' when Vader was born (which I think is just a fundamental misapprehension on Ben's part)), but I think it was a wise move all things considered.  The new dance sequence has grown on me over the years, although I miss Sy Snootles' feather, as has the Ewok celebration (although why the Jedi Temple is still standing (and has been repaired) on Coruscant is beyond me).  BTW, if you haven't seen the new adventures of Sy Snootles over in Clone Wars Season 3 get thee to a torrent now (S03 E09: The Hunt for Ziro) - she's quite a lady.

OTOH the cumulative additions and revisions to Star Wars over the years have just got worse and worse.  It's not worth it just for the shiny new X-Wing shots.  

Six pages and no mention of R2-D2's ability to fly?

Quote from: Colin Zeal on 10 January, 2011, 10:49:09 AM
Six pages and no mention of R2-D2's ability to fly?

I'm assuming either the BluRay or 3D editions will have him gently descend from Jabba's sailbarge to the sand beside the upturned 3PO (the only OT scene where flying would have been the only obvious choice - others like Dagobah and Endor were sudden falls).  Problem, errr, solved.  Or maybe Jabba had his wings clipped, so to speak?

I should say that I love Star Wars and generally enjoyed the prequels. I thought ROTS was excellent and easily the best of the new trilogy. However R2 developing a jet pack had me groaning in the cinema and pissed me off no end.

Quote from: Colin Zeal on 10 January, 2011, 11:11:28 AM
However R2 developing a jet pack had me groaning in the cinema and pissed me off no end.

It's a good job they didn't go with its original intro so, where R2 accidentally and 'amusingly' rolls off the landing platform on Coruscant in TPM.  There's pointless and there's pointless.

It makes sense to me that a droid whose primary function is to crawl about outside spacecraft should have some sort of manoeuvering jet capacity, it's just the daftness of being able to fly for extended periods in full gravity... Still, if Watto can hover with those tiny wings...

I like TPM, and like that it can still generate pages of debate!

In order to delay starting to rewrite Corvus yesterday, I watched the review of TPM on youtube linked earlier on this thread.
It was... okay. He makes some good points, but I noticed he hammers home his weakest arguements time and again and then buries them in a joke hoping that you won't see they don't actually hold up (kind of like Lucas and his writing really...).
On the whole it was good though, and very funny- even though I don't agree with everything he says.

I thought of something else I like about The Phantom Menace.... The music!

Quote from: radiator on 10 January, 2011, 01:17:40 PM
I thought of something else I like about The Phantom Menace.... The music!

and the Teaser...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYkHD9y8EqI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYkHD9y8EqI)

Well here other teasers;

Attack of the Clones:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ncFCndCLG8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ncFCndCLG8)

Revenge of the Sith:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0BWpIFZGDc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0BWpIFZGDc)

Quote from: Goaty on 10 January, 2011, 01:33:35 PM
and the Teaser...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYkHD9y8EqI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYkHD9y8EqI)

Indeed.  That's a 'where were you when...?' moment for me, the day I downloaded that first trailer a fuzzy postage-stamp size over a crappy phoneline and then sat up all night watching it over and over trying to make sense of the pixellated blurs...  I went to more awful films that year in the hope that the trailer would be in front of  them!

Which reminds me, I do hope BluRay or 3D TPM replaces Scary Hairy Puppet Yoda with the decent CGI version (better yet the Tartakovsky version, but no hope of that...).

A little late in the debate but this subject started just as i played all the dvds for my 4 year old son, he loves them all unlike me who is old enough to remember the films and toys playing a big part in my childhood.

I wasnt/am not totally against episodes 1,2,3 though i found TPM to be the worst if only for a few things :-

1- Jar Jar binks more the way he was used as comedy relief as oppose to his character and yes his voice/dialect really irritated me

2- Darth Maul in my Opinion could have done with more film time and his death scene (cgi) look truely awful for a cgi company that boasts being a pioneer in there field.

3 - The pod race and anakin in space taking down the droid control ship was really just cringeworthy, granted in a film of make believe i still found it hard to believe/accept ("The chosen one") taking down that ship pretty much on his own

There are what i consider smaller faults with the following two films but not big enough for me to feel uncomfortable watching them.

The prequals i loved the originals  and was maybe a little sceptical about the inclusion of some of the added scenes/special effects on watching i think my biggest complaint was the scene with han solo and the cgi jabba the hut it just didnt look real and if you add something like that to the film in my opinion it has to look as real as everything else and as though it fit's/was meant to be there

and this little poster, great idea, as Dredd does same... but does Anakin looks like been cut up from scene of film???

(http://www.impawards.com/1999/posters/star_wars_episode_one_the_phantom_menace_ver1.jpg)

QuoteSix pages and no mention of R2-D2's ability to fly?

I had no problem with his flying or lack of in episodes 4,5,6 and just put it down to old age and a no longer functioning ability

Quote from: klute on 10 January, 2011, 03:16:44 PM
2- Darth Maul in my Opinion could have done with more film time

You'll be happy to hear that SERIOUS SPOILERS FOR CLONE WARS SEASON 3 [spoiler]there's now another Sith Apprentice from the same family stock in the Clone Wars cartoon, and hints that Maul himself may not be as dead as he appears![/spoiler].  Not sure how I feel about that, actually.

Quotei found TPM to be the worst if only for a few things :

I haven't watched The Phantom Menace in many years, but ISTR it has fewer cringe-inducing moments than Clones or Sith, though the latter two films at least have some exciting scenes going for them - my main memory of TPM is that it's mind-numbingly boring.

QuoteYou'll be happy to hear that SERIOUS SPOILERS FOR CLONE WARS SEASON 3 [spoiler]there's now another Sith Apprentice from the same family stock in the Clone Wars cartoon, and hints that Maul himself may not be as dead as he appears!.  Not sure how I feel about that, actually.[/spoiler]

That sounds like the biggest load of bullshit ever to me. And what was all that about there only ever being two Sith?  ::)

Just been watching Balance of the Force re-edit on Youtube - Only watched the first few minutes so far but already the plot is making a lot more sense - a lot of the alien and robot dialogue has been rewritten.

[spoiler]I'd love to see them explain that, in my eyes he's dead and should remain so.[/spoiler]
In my eyes he was a very much under used character with potential, and sadly no body that works for GL or has the ability to say so hasnt said george really some of the decisions for the new SW films are awful

The Fans know what they want why not listen to some of what there saying/have said without getting silly.

Quote from: klute on 10 January, 2011, 03:20:34 PM

QuoteSix pages and no mention of R2-D2's ability to fly?

I had no problem with his flying or lack of in episodes 4,5,6 and just put it down to old age and a no longer functioning ability

Oh there's a part of me that wants to scream APOLOGIST right now  ;).

Quote from: radiator on 10 January, 2011, 03:31:00 PM
That sounds like the biggest load of bullshit ever to me. And what was all that about there only ever being two Sith?  ::)

Indeed, the Rule of Two is the point being addressed by the storline so far -[spoiler] Sidious takes against Dooku's 'assassin' Ventress, who he feels is becoming too much like a third Sith, and thus a threat to him[/spoiler].  It makes a lot of sense in context -so far.[spoiler] The Darth Maul thing is only a rumoured hint at the end of the episode due to air in a fortnight, and it may refer to a spirit, an aspiration, a holocron, who knows, rather than the Cyborg Maul beloved of desperate sections of fandom, but it's certainly got people talking[/spoiler].

QuoteOh there's a part of me that wants to scream APOLOGIST right now

I think in all fairness if they were going to include the ability they should have been able to explain the lack of the ability later on rather than just have us wonder.

Especially when you consider how useful it would have been in 4,5,6

Quote from: klute on 10 January, 2011, 03:42:16 PM
Especially when you consider how useful it would have been in 4,5,6

By my reckoning there's only three scenes where R2 might conceivably have used his flying ability in the OT (bearing in mind he only uses it twice in the prequels themselves).  Being Kenny Baker in a tin can he doesn't get many platformer action scenes.

1.  TESB:  getting off Luke's X-Wing on Dagobah.  He slipped and fell, no time to use it.  There's an argument that he must have used his jets to get back into the droid slot when Luke is preparing to leave, and out of it on the landing pad on Bespin, but seeing as Luke could have levitated him I'm not buying that myself.

2.  RotJ: getting off Jabba's sail barge.  This is the big one, but as suggested earlier Jabba's droid supervisor EV-9D9 might have had this ability deactivated to prevent the 'feisty little one' escaping (is that Locusts I hear shouting in the distance?).  He hardly needed it for serving drinks.  Pity he didn't search him for lightsabres.

3.  RotJ:  The net on Endor.  He clearly wouldn't have risked burning his comrades.

Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2011, 03:38:51 PM

Quote from: radiator on 10 January, 2011, 03:31:00 PM
That sounds like the biggest load of bullshit ever to me. And what was all that about there only ever being two Sith?  ::)

Indeed, the Rule of Two is the point being addressed by the storline so far -[spoiler] Sidious takes against Dooku's 'assassin' Ventress, who he feels is becoming too much like a third Sith, and thus a threat to him[/spoiler].  It makes a lot of sense in context -so far.[spoiler] The Darth Maul thing is only a rumoured hint at the end of the episode due to air in a fortnight, and it may refer to a spirit, an aspiration, a holocron, who knows, rather than the Cyborg Maul beloved of desperate sections of fandom, but it's certainly got people talking[/spoiler].

The problem is that the PT trilogy shouldn't require a viewer to also watch a continuing television series, read x amount of books or comics, troll through George Lucas interviews and listen to movie commentary to fill in the gaps. A film or films should stand alone...all of this just feels like Lucas is making it up as he goes along and I think the amount of retconning he's done just to make the PT match up with the OT.

Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2011, 03:49:53 PM
(is that Locusts I hear shouting in the distance?)

Oh Tordel...

He could have used it to escape those horrible Jawas.

I'd liked to have seen R2 and Boba Fett have a jet pack jumping competition.

QuoteIn my eyes he was a very much under used character with potential

People used to say the same about Boba Fett and Darth Vader, and look how that turned out.

Less is more, leave it be.

QuoteBy my reckoning there's only three scenes where R2 might conceivably have used his flying ability in the OT (bearing in mind he only uses it twice in the prequels themselves).  Being Kenny Baker in a tin can he doesn't get many platformer action scenes.

Quote
1.  TESB:  getting off Luke's X-Wing on Dagobah.  He slipped and fell, no time to use it.  There's an argument that he must have used his jets to get back into the droid slot when Luke is preparing to leave, and out of it on the landing pad on Bespin, but seeing as Luke could have levitated him I'm not buying that myself.

This scene for me was one of the ones i was thinking about..but in dagobah wasnt luke unable(at least at one point) to do such a task with rocks? and hadnt completed his training?

Quote2.  RotJ: getting off Jabba's sail barge.  This is the big one, but as suggested earlier Jabba's droid supervisor EV-9D9 might have had this ability deactivated to prevent the 'feisty little one' escaping (is that Locusts I hear shouting in the distance?).  He hardly needed it for serving drinks.  Pity he didn't search him for lightsabres.

Maybe it "could" be explained away that this was when it was damaged?

Quote3.  RotJ:  The net on Endor.  He clearly wouldn't have risked burning his comrades.

I agree 100%

QuoteThe problem is that the PT trilogy shouldn't require a viewer to also watch a continuing television series, read x amount of books or comics, troll through George Lucas interviews and listen to movie commentary to fill in the gaps. A film or films should stand alone...all of this just feels like Lucas is making it up as he goes along and I think the amount of retconning he's done just to make the PT match up with the OT.

I agree but put this down to GL thinking of new ways to make money out of 4,5,6
Rather than he fucked up on bits of the PT scripts either its money or he genuinely didnt look ahead when he was puttint 1,2,3 together

I have always wondered how the films would have looked or how we would have viewed them had they been film from 1977 in order????

Quote from: locustsofdeath! on 10 January, 2011, 03:50:45 PM
The problem is that the PT trilogy shouldn't require a viewer to also watch a continuing television series, read x amount of books or comics, troll through George Lucas interviews and listen to movie commentary to fill in the gaps.

Totally agree.  One of the biggest problems with TPM in particular is that it was structured and presented as a multi-media experience, not a film.  Lucasfilm were building on model of the vast non-film 'expanded universe' material that had grown up around the OT, clarifying and extending every detail, and they were (I suspect) assuming that this was what fans wanted from Star Wars - reams of supporting material around a spare frame of a movie.  Hardly any of the names we all know for ships, species and even characters actually appear on screen in the OT, so it must have appeared to be the way to go.  Fans were to be expected to traipse around (consuming LFL licnesed products all the while) putting the bigger story together as they went.  For example, Darth Maul (or rather the great Peter Serafinowicz) had more lines, and more character building, in the 'Tone Poem' TV commercial than he did in the film! (Here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZE1UM6xpjM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZE1UM6xpjM))

This was a huge  misjudgement, not least because the previous 'expanded universe' material had accreted over 20 years through a combination of games designers, toy makers, comics writers, fans and authors, and while much of it was crap it had the benefit of being diverse and organic, and based around a series of films that had a clear good-vs-evil plot with a beginning, middle and end that everyone understood.  With TPM everything was far from clear, and its 'expanded universe' was created professionally in one go, leaving it detailed but flat and unsatisfying, and as we would soon discover, to be contradicted almost immediately.  

Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2011, 03:22:12 PM
You'll be happy to hear that SERIOUS SPOILERS FOR CLONE WARS SEASON 3

It's been said that Lucas has been taking more of an interest in Clone Wars as the series has developed, and I'm assuming it's this that is inexorably sucking every last ounce of fun out of the series. Banking deregulation? Seriously, George?

Bah.

Jim

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 January, 2011, 04:11:53 PM
It's been said that Lucas has been taking more of an interest in Clone Wars as the series has developed, and I'm assuming it's this that is inexorably sucking every last ounce of fun out of the series. Banking deregulation? Seriously, George?

There's more than a grain of truth to this, and the endless Senate episodes that dogged the first half of Season 3 certainly support this view, but now we are through them (we have been assured) it's clear that they've done a lot to deepen the story and rather heavy-handedly drive some points home.  The negative reaction from online fandom is enough to suggest to me that some of these points (which I had previously taken as read) really needed to be made over and over again. 

Leaving aside George's dubious attempts to put forward his views on US politics and how they relate to foreign policy in a kids' cartoon, it has hopefully finally been made clear that the Clone Wars are not the battle of good versus evil that so many people still seem to want them to be.  That battle is being fought at the level of individuals, and I don't think anything in any of the films has ever suggested otherwise. 

The current stuff is great action-packed fun again, and joys like the aforementioned Sy Snootles episode give me much hope for the future.

Quotehopefully finally been made clear that the Clone Wars are not the battle of good versus evil that so many people still seem to want them to be. 

People don't get that??
One of my joys of the prequels was in weatching them with and through the eyes of my youngest. I was never as proud of him when he, aged 8, was able to figure that Anakin does what he does for all the right reasons- he thinks he is doing the right thing, and that he's not really a 'bad guy'.

QuoteIt's been said that Lucas has been taking more of an interest in Clone Wars as the series has developed, and I'm assuming it's this that is inexorably sucking every last ounce of fun out of the series. Banking deregulation? Seriously, George?

Bah.

Well, you've got to admit, it would be a lot of fun to be in his position and set about completely ruining something you created that so many people hold dear, ignoring all the protests...

I always imagined (and I'm sure it must have crossed her mind, too) what would happen if JK Rowling had suddenly, at the last minute, just decided not to write The Deathly Hallows and simply leave Harry Potter unfinished - her only explanation being "I can't be arsed". Just imagine the public outcry! Must be fun to wield that kind of power over the public's imagination!

Quote from: radiator on 10 January, 2011, 04:29:54 PM
I always imagined (and I'm sure it must have crossed her mind, too) what would happen if JK Rowling had suddenly, at the last minute, just decided not to write The Deathly Hallows and simply leave Harry Potter unfinished - her only explanation being "I can't be arsed". Just imagine the public outcry! Must be fun to wield that kind of power over the public's imagination!

Isn't that the plot of Unwritten?

Again, it all seems so slapdash - the constant changing, tinkering, adding, deleting, retconning, refurbishing, refitting (and a gazillion other '"re's") - and I have to wonder how much of a 'vision' for Star Wars he's actually ever had.

Even if we give him the OT, allowing that he didn't have the technology to do what he wanted with it back then - what about the PT? How many changes has he made to those? I suspect it's because he worked, as so many others have said, from a first draft.

Either that, or he's just off his rocker.

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 10 January, 2011, 04:27:45 PM
Anakin does what he does for all the right reasons- he thinks he is doing the right thing, and that he's not really a 'bad guy'.

Not wanting to cast nasturtiums on your son's moral compass, but isn't that the definition of a bad guy?  ;)

And Locusts:

Quote...and I have to wonder how much of a 'vision' for Star Wars he's actually ever had.

I've never read anything to suggest that he had more than "Akira Kurasawa's film of Fall of the Roman Empire meets Dune, but Flash Gordon saves the day" written at the front of a notebook that otherwise contained a few funky made-up names based on friends and places and something about  laser swords and twins.  

But so what, the kids love it (and so do I).

QuoteI have to wonder how much of a 'vision' for Star Wars he's actually ever had.

It's always been entirely obvious to me that there was never was any particular plan for a series of films - the 'Episode IV' tagline at the beginning of the first movie was simply an affectation, there to give the impression that Star Wars was some sort of lost lost serial adventure that we were only seeing a strand of.

I don't believe for a second that Lucas ever originally intended to actually film episodes 1-3, no matter how much he claims that is the case.

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 10 January, 2011, 04:27:45 PM

Quotehopefully finally been made clear that the Clone Wars are not the battle of good versus evil that so many people still seem to want them to be.  

People don't get that??

(Sorry for so many posts - in full-on displacement mode today, dealing with the Revenue.)  

To expand, no, many of the online community (it's the only one I know) still want the Separatists to be e-e-e-evil and the Republic to be good, and get really, really irrate when TCW shows neutral or pacifist planets ("how could they turn their back on teh Republic?  Cowards!"), or Separatist governments that just want to break free of Republic corruption but are terrorised into believing noble Count Dooku's claims that the droid armies are their protection against Republic aggression, or even a Republic Senate that allows arms manufacturers to sell to the enemy ("how could that happen?  seriously?").  

Recent attempts to make it absolutely plain that the self-same Sith Lord presides over an utterly corrupt Republic Senate and a similarly misguided secessionist Confederation are horribly crude and heavy-handed, but I think they need to be.  This is nothing new - after seeing how manipulative, dishonest and utterly wrong Ben and Yoda were in the OT, people were still outraged to see a cold superior Jedi Order fucking up big-style in the prequels.  Fans have their own ideas of what they want Star Wars to be, largely unconnected to what it is or ever was.  But again, so what.

EDIT:

Quote from: radiator on 10 January, 2011, 04:50:55 PM
It's always been entirely obvious to me that there was never was any particular plan for a series of films - the 'Episode IV' tagline at the beginning of the first movie was simply an affectation, there to give the impression that Star Wars was some sort of lost lost serial adventure that we were only seeing a strand of.

And indeed 'Episode IV' was only added on the film's re-release, as you say, to heighten the feel of a Saturday morning serial.  I agree completely, cutting down a sprawling unwieldy treatment into a (superb) filmable movie is not the same as having a 9-film story mapped out.

.

Quote from: radiator on 10 January, 2011, 04:50:55 PM

QuoteI have to wonder how much of a 'vision' for Star Wars he's actually ever had.

It's always been entirely obvious to me that there was never was any particular plan for a series of films - the 'Episode IV' tagline at the beginning of the first movie was simply an affectation, there to give the impression that Star Wars was some sort of lost lost serial adventure that we were only seeing a strand of.

I don't believe for a second that Lucas ever originally intended to actually film episodes 1-3, no matter how much he claims that is the case.

I still wonder why the big gap between the first three and the last three

Quote from: radiator on 10 January, 2011, 04:29:54 PM
Well, you've got to admit, it would be a lot of fun to be in his position and set about completely ruining something you created that so many people hold dear, ignoring all the protests...

The thing is, I don't hold it dear. I'm broadly "meh" on Star Wars, but I liked the Clone Wars series because it didn't seem to be carrying the weight of all Lucas' stodgy ideological baggage, and if it tied into continuity in any meaningful way, I certainly didn't have any problem following the stories in blissful ignorance of all that stuff.

Above all, the series, whilst a little juvenile, brought with it a breezy sense of fun so dismally lacking from any of the prequels. Given that Lucas reportedly had little or no hand in the first series, it's hard not to make a connection between these two facts, particularly when his supposedly increased involvement has seen that sense of fun gradually ebb away.

The current Ventris episode wasn't bad, so I'm hoping the back end of the series will pick up...

Cheers

Jim

Quote from: klute on 10 January, 2011, 04:59:45 PM

I still wonder why the big gap between the first three and the last three

That would be Star Wars Unleashed!

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 January, 2011, 05:09:28 PM
Above all, the series, whilst a little juvenile, brought with it a breezy sense of fun so dismally lacking from any of the prequels. Given that Lucas reportedly had little or no hand in the first series, it's hard not to make a connection between these two facts, particularly when his supposedly increased involvement has seen that sense of fun gradually ebb away.

True, true, but it does make me a little uneasy watching a large section of the fan community being full-on flag-wavers for Our Boys in White (who are taken as simply supplanting the Rebel Alliance in our affections), when they are/will be the brainwashwd slaves who enforce the will of a dictatorship, so I'm not going to complain if some efforts are made to clear up the morality of this most amoral of conflicts.  

That said, I think I've only re-watched 5 or 6 of the 12 episodes of Season 3 with my son, so dubious have I been about his likely level of interest.  And that's a Bad Thing.

Why are people saying that it's a good thing that neither side is evil? Surely that's a bad thing from the point of view of audience sympathies. Perhaps in a complex and mature study of the horror and futility of war it would be positive, but in a film with a backwards talking, little green elf who can read minds? No, we need baddies please.

Furthermore, I still say none of episode 1 makes any sense. Who are the trade federation? Why do they have a blockade round Naboo? What is Sidious' plan? What possible reason can there be for targeting queen Amidala when she isn't actually a real queen and is just serving a term. If there are no baddies, why are we shown merciless, heavily armed battle droids butchering hapless Gungans? What's all that shit about the decoy queen?

It's all a load of crap!

Sorry Tordelback, I offended you earlier and didn't mean to, I just hate these stupid, dissapointing films so very, very much.

Quote from: Lee Bates on 10 January, 2011, 06:36:28 PM
It's all a load of crap!

There's no disputing that!  I could explain all those things to you, but if you didn't get them from the film (which you clearly know quite well, and have thought about), then the film really hasn't done its job as a film.  It's this failure to get its (quite clever) plot across on the screen which I think is the real failing in the execution of TPM, and goes far beyond the things that popularly divide the audience, like Jar Jar, Jake Lloyd and bloody Greg Proops.

And there's no need to apologise Lee, I certainly didn't take any offence and very seldom do, especially in a frivolous thread about my malformed love - I was just asserting my right not to be generalised!

Not to cause a tangent or anything, but is there any way to ratify the cartoon version of Clone Wars with the CG version?  They seem to offer contrary explanations for Grievus' wheezing in ROTS, and I'm still unsure if the skinny androgynous one from the 'toon is the bald lass from the CGI show.

And while we're on the subject of CW, those banking deregulation episodes were a bit like Lucas set out to make something akin to the Simpsons parody of TPM where an AT-AT smashes into the Senate building and then starts filling out a tax form.  I really do think at this point there is a possibility he's doing it deliberately.

Quote from: Professah Byah on 10 January, 2011, 09:07:14 PM
I really do think at this point there is a possibility he's doing it deliberately.

Obviusly it's deliberate, the question is why and does George have any sense of judgement left at all?

Professor Byah the bald lass is indeed Ventriss.

As to whether GL has any judgement who's going  to say "no" to the billionaire owner of the franchise?

I can't really see  Lucasfilm studio execs saying anything other than  "Yes sir, Mr Lucas your evil Imperialness."

Well, maybe not that very last bit...

I have TPM on DVD and have watched it several times. The designs are great but something just seems to be missing in the overall picture.

Neeson is fairly wooden, why didn't they stick a sail on him and make a boat?

Quote from: Zarjazzer on 10 January, 2011, 09:33:29 PMAs to whether GL has any judgement who's going  to say "no" to the billionaire owner of the franchise?

That's no excuse for him though. It's not about anyone else.

I think that's part of the problem that people that work  for Gl  can't say no or anything else he may not like.........is that the type  of boss he is? all is well as.long as the staff tell him what he wants to hear

GL may be a great guy. He may be th e most fabulous boss ever. I'm just trying to work out why it just didn't seem to work for me and it seems quite a few others. I think the original creator being so heavily involved must take some of the blame.

You'd think though with many years to prepare the script that it would have been more...awesome. maybe I was expecting too much what with the original trilogy and me being a gen x, seeing that ISD swooping in chasing those rebel scum.

Quote from: Zarjazzer on 10 January, 2011, 09:50:36 PMYou'd think though with many years to prepare the script that it would have been more...awesome. maybe

I really don't think he spent that much time on actually structuring and writing the script but talking about it. He got lazy.

Quote from: TordelBack on 10 January, 2011, 04:05:07 PM
For example, Darth Maul (or rather the great Peter Serafinowicz) had more lines, and more character building, in the 'Tone Poem' TV commercial than he did in the film! (Here:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZE1UM6xpjM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZE1UM6xpjM))

I remember my mate being absolutely incensed that none of that dialogue was in the film. He kept waiting for it and then Maul gets sliced in half. [spoiler]Spoiler[/spoiler]. Luckily, my no-trailers policy meant I didn't know what I was missing.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 10 January, 2011, 09:52:38 PM

Quote from: Zarjazzer on 10 January, 2011, 09:50:36 PMYou'd think though with many years to prepare the script that it would have been more...awesome. maybe

I really don't think he spent that much time on actually structuring and writing the script but talking about it. He got lazy.

I think that is very true. It seems to crazily thrown together. As the Cosh was pointing out you have this iconic bad guy and duh? All he's for is to say virtually nothing, kill Liam Neeson's character (well no bad thing ;)) and then get the chop?

The wheezing from Greivous in ROTS was supposedly caused by Mace Windu crushing the remains of his lungs in the events prior to the film.
The missing jets on R2 could be explained via various mods being removed in the years between the films. IIRC it was Anakin that modded him up in the first place.
The main thing that pissed me off with the updated version of ROTJ was at the end after the destruction of the 2nd death star the celebrations throughout the galaxy. I wouldn't have happened as the terretories were still under Imperial rule. No need.





V

Quote from: vzzbux on 10 January, 2011, 11:50:10 PM
The main thing that pissed me off with the updated version of ROTJ was at the end after the destruction of the 2nd death star the celebrations throughout the galaxy. I wouldn't have happened as the terretories were still under Imperial rule. No need.

While I don't mind those scenes from a purely visual point of view, I agree. I know Lucas has said he sees the death of the Emperor as the defeat of the Empire, but from a realistic point of view, considering the sheer volume of systems under Imperial rule they'd still have a lot of control. (All those regional governors mentioned in Star Wars.) I think the Star Wars EU, books, etc, got that much right*.) Come to think of it, the Imperial forces out there must way outnumber the rebel alliance!

*I think it got a bit silly with [spoiler]resurrecting Palpatine as a clone though, although I liked the idea at the time[/spoiler].

Swap the film cans with a print of Dark Star when no one's looking.

Apparently Liam Neeson is reprising his role of Qui-Gon Jinn fro the Clone Wars series - weird, as ISTR that he was so disillusioned after filming TPM that he announced he was quitting films?!?! Could have just have been a rumour though.

I remember reading an interview with Ralph Brown in which he said he had a terrible time on the film, and that George Lucas could "Shove his f**king Star Wars up his f**king arse". Probably explains why he's not in Attack of the Clones or Revenge of the Sith.

Quote from: radiator on 21 January, 2011, 08:27:30 PM
Apparently Liam Neeson is reprising his role of Qui-Gon Jinn fro the Clone Wars series - weird, as ISTR that he was so disillusioned after filming TPM that he announced he was quitting films?!?! Could have just have been a rumour though.

I'm sure he was disillusioned enough to realise money talks.

I see they have Delta squad appear (albeit briefly) in a clone wars episode.
So maybe Mr Lucas hasn't turned his back on Karen Travis's Clone Commando Novels. Either that or its for the follow up Republic Commando Game.





V

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 21 January, 2011, 08:30:33 PM

Quote from: radiator on 21 January, 2011, 08:27:30 PM
Apparently Liam Neeson is reprising his role of Qui-Gon Jinn fro the Clone Wars series - weird, as ISTR that he was so disillusioned after filming TPM that he announced he was quitting films?!?! Could have just have been a rumour though.

I'm sure he was disillusioned enough to realise money talks.

He said that he's now doing any old shite just to get over his wife's death.

Just read something where someone pointed out that the main reason Darth Maul is so cool is because he has two lines and doesn't exposition dance.

Anyway this is coming out in 3d next year. I hope that on every 50th showing they fucking chain the doors to the screens shut and gas everyone inside.

Quote from: Roger Godpleton on 05 March, 2011, 01:08:46 AM
Anyway this is coming out in 3d next year. I hope that on every 50th showing they fucking chain the doors to the screens shut and gas everyone inside.

Never tell me the odds.

It's here again on ITV1, Ep 2 next Saturday, so likely up to Episode 6 in following saturdays