Great interview with the two female writers of two of my favourite runs in comics. Anne Nocenti (whose Daredevil is in my top ten defo) and Louise Simonson (whose Power Pack might just miss out). Its a really interesting, if nostalgic and I think very interesting in the context of the Galaxies Greatest.
One of the things my favourite comic is very poor on is its track record with female creators. There has of course been some and for letterers we're spoiled, but writers and artists the record isn't so good. Is it just the talents not out there, well we know that's not the case, is the talent out there not interested in writing for 2000ad, seems strange if that is the case given one of its strengths is the apparent freedom it give creators, but who knows. Is it us lot, has the comic just become so male fan orientated that, that becomes a barrier? Is there other stuff I'm not thinking of and is it something we should be worrying about anyway? I personally think it is. One of tooth's strengths is its ability to run different and diverse stories in-between its covers and I'd love to see more female creators, not for their own sake, but as in the past its its really added a different voice to the comic...
...anyway christ listen to me going on its meant to be about this great interview.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=44169 (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=44169)
Always good to hear from Weezie! Her Power Pack is my pavlovian default assumption in my brain of what superhero comics should be like, while Nocenti's work in the medium is criminally overlooked.
As for twoothy, I think the Nerve Center got scared off from hiring fillies that time Hilary Robinson emasculated and humiliated a previous Tharg who tried to throw her off her own series - and considering not long after we got Mercy Heights, she deserves our thanks for looking out for us. Apart from that, it's only a very small percentage of 2000ad readers that ever try writing for the book, and 2000ad tends towards archetypes not traditionally inviting/friendly to female readers, so it doesn't attract many female fans, so in turn there's an even smaller percentage of female writers taking the plunge and submitting to Tharg - if they don't just go out and get their story drawn up by someone and publish it in a fanzine (and/or, latterly) online.
It's not a conspiracy or owt, it's just the numbers don't work out - though I remain open to the possibility that lasses have been reached out to before and made the mistake of asking if the Nerve Center had anything to eat other than Pot Noodles and Thargs past had just thought immediately "this is not going to work."
Female writers also traditionally go into manga because it better accommodates a wider range of material than just sci-fi - Richmond or Bolt-01 can likely inform us better here, but I got the impression there were plenty of female contributors to MangaQuake compared to books like Zarjaz or FutureQuake. Also online webcomics by lasses are plentiful...
Hmm. I'm not sure what my point was originally, because now it just seems odd that with such a huge interest from women in creating the form, we should have a lot more female creators on books than we have.
Maybe it's like women in comedy. Generally they're rubbish at it
Quote from: qtwerk on 08 March, 2013, 09:25:19 PM
Maybe it's like women in comedy. Generally they're rubbish at it
My but we are celebrating International Women's Day in high style round here. Did you even read the Prof's intelligent summary of the issue?
As Alan Moore once asked in the Halo Jones preface: what's the matter, don't you like girls?
Quote from: TordelBack on 08 March, 2013, 09:34:39 PM
Quote from: qtwerk on 08 March, 2013, 09:25:19 PM
Maybe it's like women in comedy. Generally they're rubbish at it
My but we are celebrating International Women's Day in high style round here. Did you even read the Prof's intelligent summary of the issue?
As Alan Moore once asked in the Halo Jones preface: what's the matter, don't you like girls?
Not when they try and do standup comedy, no.
Most stand-up comedy is pish; I don't see why female stand-up comedy should be any different.
Quote from: sauchie on 08 March, 2013, 09:46:45 PM
Most stand-up comedy is pish; I don't see why female stand-up comedy should be any different.
^^^This.
I love stand-up, but have come to realise in the past few years that there are very very few people I enjoy watching perform it, and they are pretty much equally divided between men and women.
Quote from: sauchie on 08 March, 2013, 09:46:45 PM
Most stand-up comedy is pish; I don't see why female stand-up comedy should be any different.
There aren't any good female standups. Which seems rather definitive in the fact department.
Louis CK. Bill Hicks. Stewart Lee. Doug Stanhope. Brendan Burns. Jim Jeffries. Dylan Moran. Chris Rock. Ed Byrne. ..........Sarah Milican.
Can I just head this one off at the pass.
This conversation ends now.
Women in comics = yes.
Women comics = no.
Women comics? What are they?
Most female characters in mainstream comics are pneumatic cliches (at least to look at). I can't think of too many that are written and depicted realistically, apart from maybe Hellblazer and Sandman. Even Halo Jones had a very typical shape in the first series at least. Until she shaved her hair off anyway.
That said, most men aren't depicted that realistically either.
Gosh this is a ridiculous conversation
Quote from: qtwerk on 08 March, 2013, 10:17:31 PM
Gosh this is a ridiculous conversation
Off topic, certainly. Causing me to bang my head off the desk for the second time today, definitely.
QuoteGosh this is a ridiculous conversation
Step the fuck away from it then.
That wasn't a suggestion.
If I was to list my favourite music, films, actors, comedians, authors, artists, designers, video games creators etc, it would be 90% populated by men.
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 08 March, 2013, 10:22:12 PM
QuoteGosh this is a ridiculous conversation
Step the fuck away from it then.
That wasn't a suggestion.
Why? Have I been abusive or rude or said anything contentious? Why don't you calm down dear?
Crikey
There's no difference between female or male writers; there's some great authors of the female persuasion (Gail Simone has done some great work in comics and long may she continue with her forthcoming take on Red Sonja) as well as the bad (Karen Travis; an "author" that doesn't enjoy reading).
I think more women should write comics, especially for female characters, it makes them ring true and might do a lot of good improving women's viewpoints on comics as being something other than adolescent funny books or "shite" as the wife calls them. More than a few times I've had dismissive opinions thrown back at me when I've suggested someone read the original Walking Dead volumes alongside the TV show, but aparently those are just "dumb comics" where as the series is on TV so is legit for entertainment, reading Spider-Man at aged 30 is dumb but paying £10 to watch a 30 year old pretend to be a teenage Spider-Man swing about onscreen for 90mins is a great way to spend a Friday night, but I digress; that's a whole other subject entirely. Sorry for that. :lol:
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 08 March, 2013, 10:12:48 PM
Can I just head this one off at the pass.
This conversation ends now.
Women in comics = yes.
Women comics = no.
So much for heading it off at the pass....just a detour
Okay, To get this back on track...
QuoteRichmond or Bolt-01 can likely inform us better here, but I got the impression there were plenty of female contributors to MangaQuake compared to books like Zarjaz or FutureQuake.
Correct. It's a damned shame, but it's correct.
Apart from Liz (Lady Festina) I cannot think of any other female writers on our books - that's not to say there aren't, it just means I can't remember any in my drunken state.
And as I can't be bothered typing long posts and the vodka takes hold, here's a link to a thing a wrote a while ago: http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/2012/guest-post-richmond-clements-on-women-in-comics-again/
Just thought I'd add-
In my experience the depiction of women in 2000ad is waay better than just about any comic from a mainstream US company (especially Marvel), I've been getting back into popular US comics recently and its just really standing out how completely one dimensional female characters are, and they've pretty much always got huge boobs and skimpy outfits too, they barely even speak most of the time!
Quote from: sheldipez on 08 March, 2013, 10:30:20 PM
Quote from: qtwerk on 08 March, 2013, 09:54:07 PM
Quote from: sauchie on 08 March, 2013, 09:46:45 PM
Most stand-up comedy is pish; I don't see why female stand-up comedy should be any different.
There aren't any good female standups. Which seems rather definitive in the fact department.
Louis CK. Bill Hicks. Stewart Lee. Doug Stanhope. Brendan Burns. Jim Jeffries. Dylan Moran. Chris Rock. Ed Byrne. ..........Sarah Milican.
There's no difference between female or male writers; there's some great authors of the female persuasion (Gail Simone has done some great work in comics and long may she continue with her forthcoming take on Red Sonja) as well as the bad (Karen Travis; an "author" that doesn't enjoy reading).
I think more women should write comics, especially for female characters, it makes them ring true and might do a lot of good improving women's viewpoints on comics as being something other than adolescent funny books or "shite" as the wife calls them. More than a few times I've had dismissive opinions thrown back at me when I've suggested someone read the original Walking Dead volumes alongside the TV show, but aparently those are just "dumb comics" where as the series is on TV so is legit for entertainment, reading Spider-Man at aged 30 is dumb but paying £10 to watch a 30 year old pretend to be a teenage Spider-Man swing about onscreen for 90mins is a great way to spend a Friday night, but I digress; that's a whole other subject entirely. Sorry for that. :lol:
My wife has never and will never read a comic, but she does like Walking Dead on telly. Will she ever read the GNs on the bookshelf? As if. Most comics are read and created by blokes.
Why is that?
Quote from: qtwerk on 08 March, 2013, 10:24:19 PM
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 08 March, 2013, 10:22:12 PM
QuoteGosh this is a ridiculous conversation
Step the fuck away from it then.
That wasn't a suggestion.
Why? Have I been abusive or rude or said anything contentious? Why don't you calm down dear?
Crikey
You haven't, which is why I'm trying to head it off at the pass - I can see this getting ugly, and would rather not have this happen.
There's a real sharp drop off (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=h2SzquDst_4#t=580s) after Bill Hicks on that list, and I would have mentioned Richard Pryor and Billy Connolly long before I got round to Jim Jeffries. I rate Lee, and Chris Rock is great, but even people as personable and occasionally brilliant as Ed Byrne and Dylan Moran are as comfortable and safe as Victoria Wood and Lucy Porter.
It's a matter of personal taste (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EGKkm-3_9Es#t=26s), of course.
Oh hardest topic to answering!
I never thought about that, as been enjoy many 2000AD stories for years, and never think about male/female writers, but sorry as can't recall if there is any female writers of Sci-Fi books?
Quote from: Silent_Bomber on 08 March, 2013, 10:32:22 PM
Just thought I'd add-
In my experience the depiction of women in 2000ad is waay better than just about any comic from a mainstream US company (especially Marvel), I've been getting back into popular US comics recently and its just really standing out how completely one dimensional female characters are, and they've pretty much always got huge boobs and skimpy outfits too, they barely even speak most of the time!
Well, I mentioned Hellblazer and Sandman. Also British. Tomb Raider's Lara Croft. British. Joanna Dark. British.
Oops, sorry Rich.
Quote from: Silent_Bomber on 08 March, 2013, 10:32:22 PM
Just thought I'd add-
In my experience the depiction of women in 2000ad is waay better than just about any comic from a mainstream US company (especially Marvel), I've been getting back into popular US comics recently and its just really standing out how completely one dimensional female characters are, and they've pretty much always got huge boobs and skimpy outfits too, they barely even speak most of the time!
The worst thing is that when the writing is good but the artists insist on constantly drawing the women's behinds facing the reader whilst the men they're talking to get to face the reader. You get so used to it that I bet it's easy to miss how often this happens yet you'd soon notice it if it was the other way around.
(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/601922/thumbs/o-SEXIST-AVENGERS-POSTER-KEVIN-BOLK-570.jpg)
Quote from: qtwerk on 08 March, 2013, 10:33:41 PMMost comics are read and created by blokes.
Why is that?
Well that's the fucking question being asked isn't it.
If you seriously believe women don't read and create great comics, can we talk about Claire Bretecher? Alison Bechdel? Jill Thomson? Posey Simmonds? Amanda Conner? Marijane Satrapi? The incredibly funny Trudy Cooper? Linda Medly? Fiona Staples? Jan Duursemer? And that's only accessible gaijin stuff, I haven't got a clue about manga and untranslated material.
If you mean
just superhero comics, well just read a cross-section of the bloody things.
Alan Moore's old essay on the subject can be found on this person's blog
http://boredrigged.blogspot.co.uk/2008/02/alan-moores-essay-sexism-in-comics.html
I used it as source material for an essay I wrote in my Sexual Revolutions module at uni, my chosen subject being women in comics.
Quote from: sauchie on 08 March, 2013, 10:35:22 PM
There's a real sharp drop off (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=h2SzquDst_4#t=580s) after Bill Hicks on that list, and I would have mentioned Richard Pryor and Billy Connolly long before I got round to Jim Jeffries. I rate Lee, and Chris Rock is great, but even people as personable and occasionally brilliant as Ed Byrne and Dylan Moran are as comfortable and safe as Victoria Wood and Lucy Porter.
It's a matter of personal taste (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=EGKkm-3_9Es#t=26s), of course.
Yeah of course. I agree most stand-up is awful. But only Sarah Silverman, Tina Fey and Julia Davis buck the trend. And I really hate Victoria wood.
After the first three largest armies? Realllllll fucking big drop off. Nice.
Quote from: TordelBack on 08 March, 2013, 10:39:05 PM
If you seriously believe women don't read and create great comics, can we talk about Claire Bretecher? Alison Bechdel? Jill Thomson? Posey Simmonds? Amanda Conner? Marijane Satrapi? The incredibly funny Trudy Cooper? Linda Medly? Fiona Staples? Jan Ostrander?
Thanks, I better digging biggest hole for myself... :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 08 March, 2013, 10:34:22 PM
Quote from: qtwerk on 08 March, 2013, 10:24:19 PM
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 08 March, 2013, 10:22:12 PM
QuoteGosh this is a ridiculous conversation
Step the fuck away from it then.
That wasn't a suggestion.
Why? Have I been abusive or rude or said anything contentious? Why don't you calm down dear?
Crikey
You haven't, which is why I'm trying to head it off at the pass - I can see this getting ugly, and would rather not have this happen.
No honestly. I'm not doing that. In many ways I think lots of male-dominated pursuits are really fucking nerdy, which is why blokes like them, and women realise they're possibly a bit silly
Quote from: TordelBack on 08 March, 2013, 10:39:05 PM
Quote from: qtwerk on 08 March, 2013, 10:33:41 PMMost comics are read and created by blokes.
Why is that?
Well that's the fucking question being asked isn't it.
If you seriously believe women don't read and create great comics, can we talk about Claire Bretecher? Alison Bechdel? Jill Thomson? Posey Simmonds? Amanda Conner? Marijane Satrapi? The incredibly funny Trudy Cooper? Linda Medly? Fiona Staples? Jan Duursemer? And that's only accessible gaijin stuff, I haven't got a clue about manga and untranslated material.
If you mean just superhero comics, well just read a cross-section of the bloody things.
Never heard of any of them. But as I said earlier, everything I am really interested in across myriad genres and disciplines seems to be created by men.
Quote from: qtwerk on 08 March, 2013, 10:44:26 PM...everything I am really interested in across myriad genres and disciplines seems to be created by men.
That's clearly an artefact of the culture we live in. Which is the point. How likely is it really that women are
incapable of producing work you would find entertaining, as opposed to the scenario that our culture is based around men controlling the production and consumption of art and entertainment, with definition of gender-divided genres a particular issue? A cursory glance at the internet would show that freed of male-dominated means of production and distribution, female creativity becomes just as prolific.
Also, if you have never read Claire Bretecher you really should. Laugh-yourself-sick funny, even in translation.
Quote from: Charlie boy on 08 March, 2013, 10:39:50 PM
Alan Moore's old essay on the subject can be found on this person's blog
http://boredrigged.blogspot.co.uk/2008/02/alan-moores-essay-sexism-in-comics.html
I used it as source material for an essay I wrote in my Sexual Revolutions module at uni, my chosen subject being women in comics.
I don't think the Carry On films were really that negative to women personally.
Watching them whilst growing up probably did send me on the wrong track though, I expected all women to be friendly, slutty, and fairly thoughtful, all the Carry On films got right was the sluttyness IMO.
Joke (kinda')
To be honest... I don't think any of us here read 50 Shades of Grey :D
I'm waaaaaay too drunk to be rational here - but not too drunk to recognise this weakness... and it took me ages to type this sans mistakes.
Whcih is to say: y'all are being grown up in this conversation. Keep it up while I sleep...
Quote from: Silent_Bomber on 08 March, 2013, 11:10:43 PM
Watching them whilst growing up probably did send me on the wrong track though, I expected all women to be friendly, slutty, and fairly thoughtful, all the Carry On films got right was the sluttyness IMO.
I confess many of my ideas about the attitudes and disposition of women also came from the Carry On movies (whereas my sexuality was apparently created from whole-cloth by Marilyn in
Some Like it Hot, but that's another story). As a seriosu-but-horny adolescent I was most annoyed by the realisation that I had apparently been grossly misled, but then as an adult I was delighted to find that women were indeed all that Sid James had promised, and more. The durty mares.
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 08 March, 2013, 11:17:32 PM
Whcih is to say: y'all are being grown up in this conversation. Keep it up while I sleep...
Said the man who started the Underware [sic] thread.
While not quite a creator, Jan Shepheard has had a big influence on British comics, art ed on Valiant,
Buster, 2000AD, Starlord, Tornado, Roy of the Rovers, and probably lent a hand to Lion, Eagle, Scream
an many others.
Friday evening probably wasn't the time to start this conversation. If you come late it was inspired by this
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=44169 (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=44169)
and from that the fact that 2000ad has had a poor record for attracting female writers and artists.
Richmond's point about Lady Festina is the only female creator (off the top of his head at the light headed time by his own confession) to really head for his (and Bolts) books may be heading to the answer. When I potter around cons (which alas I don't do as much as I'd like) there always seems to be loads of female creators in the small press areas. Is it just very few of them at this 'grass roots' level are interested in our comic?
Urrrrgh, my head. Apologies to Colin for mucking up his thread with my drunken belligerent ramblings.
Quote from: maryanddavid on 08 March, 2013, 11:42:50 PM
While not quite a creator, Jan Shepheard has had a big influence on British comics, art ed on Valiant,
Buster, 2000AD, Starlord, Tornado, Roy of the Rovers, and probably lent a hand to Lion, Eagle, Scream
an many others.
Weve much to thankful for, regarding Jan Shepheard.
Don't forget how much we as fans - and modern comics in their current form - owe to the work of Karen Berger. Neil Gaiman and Garth Ennis have been especially free with their praise telling how she nurtured their careers at Vertigo, and it's worth noting the talent drain from Vertigo and DC both as her influence began to wane in favor of more alpha male management from Paul Levitz, Dan DiDio and Bob Harras.
Without Berger, there'd be no Sandman, no Preacher, no Transmetropolitan - at least not in the forms we recognise - and no knock-on effects from those books on the industry both as creative influences and in how they changed the market towards trade collections in bookstores rather than just comic shops.
Apropos of nothing, I also keep meaning to read Colleen Doran's epic A Distant Soil, though keep forgetting. http://www.adistantsoil.com/2009/01/09/a-distant-soil-cover/
Quote from: TordelBack on 08 March, 2013, 10:39:05 PMIf you seriously believe women don't read and create great comics, can we talk about Claire Bretecher? Alison Bechdel? Jill Thomson? Posey Simmonds? Amanda Conner? Marijane Satrapi? The incredibly funny Trudy Cooper? Linda Medly? Fiona Staples? Jan Duursemer? And that's only accessible gaijin stuff, I haven't got a clue about manga and untranslated material.
I'd like to add to this list if I may: Becky Cloonan (http://inkandthunder.blogspot.ie/), Julia Gförer (http://www.thorazos.net/) and two big names from Japan, the all-female collective CLAMP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clamp_%28manga_artists%29) and Junko Mizuno. (http://jmnews.exblog.jp/)
Quote from: Professor James T Bear on 09 March, 2013, 05:46:19 PM
Don't forget how much we as fans - and modern comics in their current form - owe to the work of Karen Berger. Neil Gaiman and Garth Ennis have been especially free with their praise telling how she nurtured their careers at Vertigo, and it's worth noting the talent drain from Vertigo and DC both as her influence began to wane in favor of more alpha male management from Paul Levitz, Dan DiDio and Bob Harras.
Without Berger, there'd be no Sandman, no Preacher, no Transmetropolitan - at least not in the forms we recognise - and no knock-on effects from those books on the industry both as creative influences and in how they changed the market towards trade collections in bookstores rather than just comic shops.
Apropos of nothing, I also keep meaning to read Colleen Doran's epic A Distant Soil, though keep forgetting. http://www.adistantsoil.com/2009/01/09/a-distant-soil-cover/
Why didn't she write or illustrate Sandman or Preacher then?
Oh wait.
Good calls, AO. I'd also add Gurihiru, as they are apparently not a single bloke but a pair of lady types more well-known for their kiddie-friendly Marvel Adventures work, but anyone watching Ultimate Spider-Man will be able to tell you how their influence has traveled.
June Brigman is a fave for her work on Power Pack and Brenda Starr, but she's also responsible for some of the current comic art noobs through her time as an instructor at the Joe Kubert school.
Tania Del Rio's manga-influenced work on Sabrina helped spearhead the revamping of the Archie line of comic books into something more multicultural and paved the way for introducing gay characters to the series.
Also Naoko Takeuchi, whose Sailor Moon property redefined both the use of anime in western programming, and also changed the aesthetics of western animation to allow the use of more traditional anime techniques - without SM there'd be no Teen Titans Go, Totally Spies, Martin Mystery, etc.
Quote from: qtwerk on 09 March, 2013, 07:48:50 PM
Why didn't she write or illustrate Sandman or Preacher then?
Because she's an editor, you silly man. However, Vertigo editor
Alisa Kwitney went on to write follow-up
Destiny and steered
The Dreaming, main writer of which was the palaeontologist
Caitlin Kiernan (and our own Peter Hogan). A massive chunk of the Sandman fanbase are female, and of course
Jill Thompson illustrated arguably the most important Sandman arc
Brief Lives. But maybe you skipped that bit, Qtwerk? Or just didn't enjoy it?
All that aside, I'm sure the statistical under-representation of female creatives in mainstream western comics has nothing whatsoever to do with statements like '...everything I am really interested in across myriad genres and disciplines seems to be created by men'.
Can I add
Kate Beaton to our list of successful comics creatives? Was glancing through the print collection of
Hark, A Vagrant today, it's unspeakably brilliant.
And can I ask that
Denise Mina be struck off the same list.
The aforementioned Colleen Doran (http://www.colleendoran.com/) illustrated Sandman too. The world of comics which don't involve folk hitting each other over the head has given us Julie Doucet (http://www.juliedoucet.net/), Dame Darcy (http://damedarcy.com/), Sarah Dyer (http://sarahdyer.com/) and Bride of the Beast, Melinda Gebbie (http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/melinda%20gebbie). The reason why more women don't draw mainstream comics is because they're read predominantly by and therefore designed to appeal to not just men, but the kind of adult men who're still prepared to buy comics about folks hitting each other hard over the head.
Same reason Katherine Bigelow's the only female action movie director you've heard of, yet it's as common for women to be in charge of TV drama as it is to find them in the worlds of book, magazine and newspaper publishing, fine art, photography and music. All of those industries - like comics - essentially recruit from the audience which enjoys them, and the majority of comics don't appeal to a great number of women - and aren't intended to.
Asking why more girls don't write and draw superhero comics is like asking why it's only men's names you see written in snow with piss.
It's patently obvious the problem is more that some men just don't bother their arses to read or seek comics by women that might expand their tastes rather than limiting them to the usual comic-shelf fare the industry would rather push upon them and let's face it, because of the proportional imbalance, men also create the vast majority of shit comics too.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 09 March, 2013, 10:47:53 PM
It's patently obvious the problem is more that some men just don't bother their arses to read or seek comics by women that might expand their tastes rather than limiting them to the usual comic-shelf fare the industry would rather push upon them and let's face it, because of the proportional imbalance, men also create the vast majority of shit comics too.
Well put, Joe. But I think this says it better:
QuoteAsking why more girls don't write and draw superhero comics is like asking why it's only men's names you see written in snow with piss.
I will always be Godfather I to Sauchie's Godfather II.
We all are.
Quote from: Professor James T Bear on 09 March, 2013, 08:51:07 PMAlso Naoko Takeuchi, whose Sailor Moon property redefined both the use of anime in western programming, and also changed the aesthetics of western animation to allow the use of more traditional anime techniques - without SM there'd be no Teen Titans Go, Totally Spies, Martin Mystery, etc.
How did I forget the author of the biggest selling manga in North America in recent years? Not bad for a twenty year old property.
Alex De Campi...forgot her too. And I'd say she would be one of the few mentioned on this thread to be delighted to create something for 2000AD, as she's one of the few American writers that has name dropped 2000AD (particularly Nikolai Dante) for years, even before DC started publishing them. She's working with Simon Fraser on a project at the moment too....
Quote from: sauchie on 09 March, 2013, 10:47:11 PMThe reason why more women don't draw mainstream comics is because they're read predominantly by and therefore designed to appeal to not just men, but the kind of adult men who're still prepared to buy comics about folks hitting each other hard over the head.
The really telling thing for me is how many webcomics are produced by women. Away from the narrow world of the mainstream comics market there is an audience and few of the usual impediments to growing it.
BTW in case the Prof and anyone else is wondering, I've read a good chunk of Doran's
A Distant Soil - it's not to my tastes.
Quote from: TordelBack on 10 March, 2013, 01:42:27 AM
The really telling thing for me is how many webcomics are produced by women. Away from the narrow world of the mainstream comics market there is an audience and few of the usual impediments to growing it. BTW in case the Prof and anyone else is wondering, I've read a good chunk of Doran's A Distant Soil - it's not to my tastes.
I remember a fair number of girls aged 12 to 16 being into the super-powered soap opera of the X-Men and the few action/fantasy films which didn't go out of their way to appeal exclusively to arse-scratching males. Only a few years later, the majority of those girls had moved on to material whose emotional maturity and aesthetic more closely matched their own. The success of
Twilight and
Harry Potter demonstrate that there's still a large female audience for fanciful tosh (written by women), but there are not many more teenage girls reading mainstream comics nowadays than there are women creating them.
Like you say, when you remove the impediment of an industry which is always having to ask itself
what would Bart Simpson think of this book? the numbers of female readers and creators reflect the composition of the reading public more closely.
Deadline and Fantagraphics' Nineties output introduced me to the novel sensation of having reading material in common with the hipster girls whose pants I was desperately trying to get into, but following that Nineties boom comics have sold exponentially fewer copies each year. I suppose it's inevitable that publishers will concentrate on their core constituency and the stuff which appeals most to them ... and mostly only to them.
Quote from: sauchie on 10 March, 2013, 09:32:52 AM
I remember a fair number of girls aged 12 to 16 being into the super-powered soap opera of the X-Men and the few action/fantasy films which didn't go out of their way to appeal exclusively to arse-scratching males.
And this is an interesting point. We understand that the comics buyers of today's superhero shlock are basically (a fraction of) the very same blokes who bought yesterday's superhero shlock: there's an enormous inertia there. The same pattern regrettably applies to 2000AD.
However, away from the panel-filled page, fangirls seem less discerning: my wife is/was a big Xena fan, and we used to attend Tapertverse cons which were easily 75% female attended - and there are armies of female Whedon fans, George Martin fans, Tolkien fans... it's not an inherent problem with women not embracing violent nonsensical melodrama. And on the other side of the coin, this thread has shown that women do read and create comics - just not
these comics (and i'm talking about raw numbers here, obviously plenty of women do read superhero/2000AD books, it's just that they're a small percentage of a small readership),
It's something specific to the nature of the 'boy's comic' that doesn't appeal. But I wonder if, taken as a proportion of the whole population that
doesn't read/obsess over/make superhero comics, is the male/female disparity in those who
do even significant.
Quote from: sauchie on 10 March, 2013, 09:32:52 AM
I remember a fair number of girls aged 12 to 16 being into the super-powered soap opera of the X-Men and the few action/fantasy films which didn't go out of their way to appeal exclusively to arse-scratching males.
I was chatting to a colleague at work about cartoons and she happened to mention she used to really be into the X-Men cartoon!
I don't think she's really a comic book reader, but I'll admit she went up in my estimation somewhat. (Not that she was low.) That series did get a bit silly , but overall I found it entertaining although it was aimed at a lower age group than me at the time (like it matters).
I suspect there are plenty of other girls (and lads for that matter) who enjoyed seeing that stuff on the screen and never made the transition to comics. A shame perhaps, but there's a potential audience.
Of course I'm talking comics in general rather than 2000 AD which has no TV screen presence, apart from occasional repeats of a certain Stallone film. And now I find myself thinking of that rather nifty ABC Warriors promo we saw a good while back. (Sigh.)
Jeanette Khan was head honcho of DC from 1976 to 2002, and so can largely be credited with their successes until around then. Oddly, 2002 was when I started to move away from DC as it started to become a bit of a parody of itself - weird that. Worth noting that half DC employees were women during her time in charge, compared to ten years of DiDio power-lunching in strip clubs and oddly there are not so many ladies on the books of late, apart from recent management hire Bobbie Chase, who had a short but influential run with Marvel as EiC back in the 90s and gave us memorable Peter David, Erik Larsen and Todd McFarlane outings as well as pushing X-Men and Spider-Man into becoming million-selling comic books. Here's hoping she is a good influence on Bob "parade of complete and utter shit" Harras.
Slightly off topic here, but it does relate to 'nerd' culture.
I've heard Dorothy Fontana wrote a lot of Star Trek TOS episodes under the name D.C Fontana, so that her work would be judged on merit instead of being judged by her gender. She also used the pen names Michael Richards and J. Michael Bingham.
Also J.K Rowling. Did she use her initials (or at at least, was she advised to) so that boys wouldn't be put off?
Quote from: El Pops on 11 March, 2013, 04:55:24 PM
Also J.K Rowling. Did she use her initials (or at at least, was she advised to) so that boys wouldn't be put off?
I don't think women authoring kids books* is as much of a perceived issue is it? Not that women authoring comics (or anything for that matter)
should be an issue. (It isn't for me, but as this thread stated, they're under-represented in the medium. Not so much kids books surely?) I certainly remember Enid Blyton books being very popular. I used to like them myself as a nipper.
*I know plenty of adults like them too, which is fine. A good story is a good story at the end of the day. I've only read the first and it did strike me as primarily aimed at kids though.
Quote from: El Pops on 11 March, 2013, 04:55:24 PM
Slightly off topic here, but it does relate to 'nerd' culture.
I've heard Dorothy Fontana wrote a lot of Star Trek TOS episodes under the name D.C Fontana, so that her work would be judged on merit instead of being judged by her gender. She also used the pen names Michael Richards and J. Michael Bingham.
Also J.K Rowling. Did she use her initials (or at at least, was she advised to) so that boys wouldn't be put off?
I think this has become a tradition or an affectation rather than a necessity these days - The Bronte sisters all published under fake male names, as did George Eliot of course, because women just would not get published or taken seriously back then. It was probably still useful in certain situations until quite recently though, as that Fontana anecdote shows.
I remmber being surprised as a kid when I found oput Enid was a girl's name!
I believe that men wanting to write romantic fiction these days are told by publishers to adopt a female pseudonym 'cos women feel weird reading, or would be les likley to buy, romances written by blokes
Quote from: Dandontdare on 11 March, 2013, 05:17:37 PMI think this has become a tradition or an affectation rather than a necessity these days
When not wearing tight-boots, our own
Mike Carroll goes behind the curtain, puts on the heels and becomes
Jaye Carroll to flog his own version of 50 Shades of Grey (http://www.michaelowencarroll.com/bib-jaye4.htm).
QuoteAsking why more girls don't write and draw superhero comics is like asking why it's only men's names you see written in snow with piss.
Fair play. It's like having a second Tordelback around, which is a good thing. Haven't read all of this thread, but somebody must have mentioned Leah Moore already? As far as I can see, she's a good, solid comics writer, perfect for the Black Museum format she was commissioned for in the Meg - maybe not quite as innovative as her dad, but who is?
Correct me if I'm wrong but have we gone through 5 pages on this topic and not had one female board member post?
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - CS Lewis
- and one of the most true things ever said.
While a sweeping statement, my tuppence is this: girls tend not to be involved in the buying or making of comics becuase they are taught from an early age that they are not for them. Bunty, Misty, Mandy - the comics for girls are all dead. What we are left with is vicious, visceral imagery designed to appeal to boys (of all ages), from Dredd to the Avengers.
This is easy for men to make because we are programmed to consume it. Guns, violence, intrugue, high drama - these are the things our culture makes manly (none of that feelings stuff), and these are the things that girls are programmed not to like.
True, there are exceptions. True, it should not be this way. But I can't help but feel the question is like "why do some girls not like football?" or "why don't mean read romantic novels?"
Did someone call? :-D
Look it's easy enough, there are many, many female comic creators, I edit an anthology and Iz runs a convention, Vicky is an amazing artist, and Lady Festina is a writer and publisher extraordinaire. They are just the female board members from this here forum. There are plenty of women in comics and not just Manga! Look around the indie tables teh next time you're at a convention you might be surprised.
But yes, there are not a great deal of women who work in mainstream, I honestly don't know if that's cos they can't or because they don't want to. I can't comment on shit I know nowt about. Also I find it hard to care as I don't read many mainstream comics, not my cup of tea really.
What I can say is that I have never felt 2000AD is off limits to me as a women, I think the Judges particularly are a good example of utter equality, and in 2000AD there are strong female characters galore. Why there are not more female readers I do not know, not for the lack of me pushing it like crack to all and sundry I tells ya.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 11 March, 2013, 08:42:44 PM
Guns, violence, intrigue, high drama - these are the things our culture makes manly (none of that feelings stuff), and these are the things that girls are programmed not to like.
True, there are exceptions.
Case in point, The Walking Dead & Game of Thrones televison shows and the Game of Throne novels. Loads of women I know love these. But getting them onto the source comics/comic adaptations is a different story....
Quote from: Ancient Otter on 11 March, 2013, 08:59:22 PM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 11 March, 2013, 08:42:44 PM
Guns, violence, intrigue, high drama - these are the things our culture makes manly (none of that feelings stuff), and these are the things that girls are programmed not to like.
True, there are exceptions.
Case in point, The Walking Dead & Game of Thrones televison shows and the Game of Throne novels. Loads of women I know love these. But getting them onto the source comics/comic adaptations is a different story....
Again depends on the women, dude. I read Games of Thrones when it came in a freebie bag at the first SFX Event which I think was in 2002. These are sweeping generalisations here, again Iz is a hardcore Walking dead comic fan to the point where it took her awhile to get into the series...I'm not fussed myself, read the first one and thought it was a bit ...dull.
Also I know loads of dudes who watch Game of Thrones/Walking dead and have no interest in the source material either. Its a telly thing not a gender thing I think
Quote from: Dandontdare on 11 March, 2013, 05:17:37 PM
Quote from: El Pops on 11 March, 2013, 04:55:24 PM
Slightly off topic here, but it does relate to 'nerd' culture.
I've heard Dorothy Fontana wrote a lot of Star Trek TOS episodes under the name D.C Fontana, so that her work would be judged on merit instead of being judged by her gender. She also used the pen names Michael Richards and J. Michael Bingham.
Also J.K Rowling. Did she use her initials (or at at least, was she advised to) so that boys wouldn't be put off?
I think this has become a tradition or an affectation rather than a necessity these days - The Bronte sisters all published under fake male names, as did George Eliot of course, because women just would not get published or taken seriously back then. It was probably still useful in certain situations until quite recently though, as that Fontana anecdote shows.
I remmber being surprised as a kid when I found oput Enid was a girl's name!
I believe that men wanting to write romantic fiction these days are told by publishers to adopt a female pseudonym 'cos women feel weird reading, or would be les likley to buy, romances written by blokes
This happens a lot; sci-fi writer Stephani Danelle Perry goes under the name of "S. D. Perry" in all her novels too. I quite enjoy her Resident Evil series, they're way more faithfull (and enjoyable) than the live action Resident Evil monstrosities.
Quote from: El Pops on 11 March, 2013, 04:55:24 PM
I've heard Dorothy Fontana wrote a lot of Star Trek TOS episodes under the name D.C Fontana, so that her work would be judged on merit instead of being judged by her gender. She also used the pen names Michael Richards and J. Michael Bingham.
Also J.K Rowling. Did she use her initials (or at at least, was she advised to) so that boys wouldn't be put off?
In both these examples, they were asked to change it. They didn't choose to.
But the Journal's co-editor; a lifelong comic fan, fantasy author and poet refers to herself as Geoffery Crescent. Whether it seems outdated or not the very fact this topic even exists and is full of the kind of debate that it is makes her shy away from identifying as a woman. So everything she does isn't marked down by her gender first - "this female writer". Oh, she's one! I spotted one! There's a woman!!!!!
The aforementioned Crescent also ran the Sheffield uni sci-fi/fantasy society and has wrote numerous blogs on the tired and CONTINUOUS misconception that fantasy is male dominated (thanks Big Bang Theory) given that a whopping eighty percent of her student membership were female.
I was reticent to wade into this because the very fact the "debate" has gone on this long is irritating. Where are the women? Every fucking where, deeply ingrained in every facet of a culture that doesn't belong to one gender. Get over it.
Quote from: CrazyFoxMachine on 12 March, 2013, 12:14:22 PM
Crescent also ran the Sheffield uni sci-fi/fantasy society and has wrote numerous blogs
Oh Owen Owen Owen - another Grammar Fairy has just died, I hope you're happy! :'(
Quote from: Goaty on 08 March, 2013, 10:35:41 PM
Oh hardest topic to answering!
I never thought about that, as been enjoy many 2000AD stories for years, and never think about male/female writers, but sorry as can't recall if there is any female writers of Sci-Fi books?
Ursula le Guin, Doris Lessing, Sherri Tepper, Julian May, James Tiptree Jr. Would be a handful of decent ones who immediately spring to mind.
Quote from: CrazyFoxMachine on 12 March, 2013, 12:14:22 PM
I was reticent to wade into this because the very fact the "debate" has gone on this long is irritating. Where are the women? Every fucking where, deeply ingrained in every facet of a culture that doesn't belong to one gender. Get over it.
Hang on there CFM, the 'debate' being had here is a discussion of why there are so few female comics creators in 2000AD (and mainstream comics), the situation obviously being that they're
woefully under-represented. There's been some very interesting points made, and others that make me want to drive skewers through my eyes and into my aching brain, but I think the discussion has been illuminating.
From the foregoing, I think most of us here agree that the issue
isn't women not liking/creating fantasy/SF (as The Cosh notes, the greatest SF author of them* all is a woman, LeGuin, as is the most
successful fantasy author of them all, Rowling, and that's without wandering into Twilight or Hunger Games territory) or even women not liking/creating comics (which is demonstrably untrue from all of the foregoing), it was a very specific query. I agree that TBBT presents a picture of a male-only nerdy sub-culture that bears no resemblance to reality (even in the '80s our RPG group boasted 3 women, and at home our shelves groan under the weight of my wife's ghastly taste in Manga, 'Trek and various Raimi-related productions), but it's hardly doing anything more than being a comedy that plays up to existing erroneous stereotypes. See also: everything funny, ever.
Breaking it down, the under-representation of female creators in 2000AD/mainstream comics has to come from either: (a). unfairly obstructed access; (b). the unappealing nature of the material in this specific niche; (c). the unappealing audience who apparently are unable to enjoy anything created by a woman. I suspect it's some mix of all three, but (b) most likely dominates. And while it's easy to say that mainstream superhero comics are such a narrow pursuit that it's a miracle
anyone likes them, the same is not true of 2000AD, which regularly prints material that would never find a home in the New 52 or Marvel Now or whatever.
So it remains a valid question.
*Not an opinion, a FACT. If the god-botherers get to claim things as true on the basis of personal faith, then so do I. And I have a lot more books to argue from.
Not a particularly inspired addition to this thread but two of my favourite artists at the moment are Fiona Staples (the magnificent pop-arty Saga) and Becky Cloonan (her take on Conan was sublime and I miss her on the title).
Jenny Frison is also knocking out some cracking cover art on Revival and a couple of other titles. Her cover for the first issue of Revival was a corker and one of my faves of last year.
Quote from: TordelBack on 12 March, 2013, 01:41:56 PM
Breaking it down, the under-representation of female creators in 2000AD/mainstream comics has to come from either: (a). unfairly obstructed access; (b). the unappealing nature of the material in this specific niche; (c). the unappealing audience who apparently are unable to enjoy anything created by a woman. I suspect it's some mix of all three, but (b) most likely dominates. And while it's easy to say that mainstream superhero comics are such a narrow pursuit that it's a miracle anyone likes them, the same is not true of 2000AD, which regularly prints material that would never find a home in the New 52 or Marvel Now or whatever.
I DO think that 2000ad has an oddly disproportionate slant, but I disagree that this is just as apparent in mainstream comics - this topic is stuffed with the names of mainstream and influential indie creators who happen to also be women. No, can't see it.
So taking your points in regards to 2000ad alone, I'd have to lean towards (a) there must be some fault or something unappealing about the submissions process - because I refuse to believe that the entire varied canon of twooth history has an "unappealing nature" for female creators (!!) - and that anyone would be put off from submitting because of the
unappealing audience. Pff.
Now... to start a topic "list your favourite male creators" - hm.
While this thread might indeed be stuffed as you say with names of influencial female creators I genuinely feel your burying your head in the sand if you think that represents an equitable proportion of the creative commity
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 12 March, 2013, 03:56:16 PM
While this thread might indeed be stuffed as you say with names of influencial female creators I genuinely feel your burying your head in the sand if you think that represents an equitable proportion of the creative commity
Apologies I was doing that on my phone, needed to modify, THEN the battery ran out. Anyway to continue.
... creative community. As has been said by many people on this thread if you look at the proportion of creators in the small press community at cons and the like it seems far higher than is seen in the professional community. While we all might be able to list our favourites I'd take an educated guess, while not scientific, that the further up the mainstream you go the small the representation of female creators becomes. Look no further than the rather damning stats produced monthly on Bleeding Cool for the gender divide at DC and Marvel. While its all well and good saying 'Arh but I don't read such superhero nonsense' it avoids the point that they are the biggest sellers of floppies and have by far the largest market share in the English speaking market.
It is a concern and one that's very valid to discuss. Anyone is welcome to start a thread asking who people's favourite male creators are it would in no way invalidate the entirely separate issues being raised here.
In some ways in summary - what Tordelback said... but I do like to labour a point!
Quote from: CrazyFoxMachine on 12 March, 2013, 03:24:56 PM
I DO think that 2000ad has an oddly disproportionate slant, but I disagree that this is just as apparent in mainstream comics - this topic is stuffed with the names of mainstream and influential indie creators who happen to also be women. No, can't see it.
I agree that there are many female creators working in mainstream comics, as this thread amply demonstrates, but
proportionally it's a pathetic amount, especially when compared to the numbers and influence of those working in indie, newspaper and particularly webcomics (where female artists in particular seem to be in the majority, at least in the ones I read) .
While I hate to cite Bleeding Cool on anything, particularly statistics and matters of gender, their review of the gender breakdown in 2012 comics is sobering:
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/02/26/gendercrunching-december-2012/
Here's the DC graph from that article. Note how much of that tiny figure is made up by assistant editors, rather than script/art or even full editors.
(http://cdn.bleedingcool.net/wp-content/uploads//2013/02/g11.png?802b89)
No doubt someone at DC is currently collecting binders of women.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 12 March, 2013, 04:27:35 PM
what Tordelback said... but I do like to labour a point!
Then lets continue to labour it. Fair enough, I don't read or pay attention to the output of "the big two" comic corporations - the graphs are alarming as they are aptly-coloured...
So the question is - what do we want to see? A more gender-neutral environment in the professional area of comics, as is clearly present in the small press?
Well - a good way to start is to stop needlessly bringing gender into it. This is my main irritation here, as well-meaning equal opportunities talk can sometimes come across as heavy-handed and patronising.
"Look, there's a woman! HI"
"Hello."
"I'm not here to buy anything but... well done. Well done for being a woman and for making comics"
"Okay."
If a factor, like TordelBack says, of 2000ad's shocking lack of gender equality is one of a readership that discriminates against or alienates female creators - then maybe we should look to today's two major "updated topics" on the forum
"Women in Comics"
"Who wants to look at womens underware"
Quote from: CrazyFoxMachine on 12 March, 2013, 05:11:41 PM
So the question is - what do we want to see? A more gender-neutral environment in the professional area of comics, as is clearly present in the small press?
Well - a good way to start is to stop needlessly bringing gender into it. This is my main irritation here, as well-meaning equal opportunities talk can sometimes come across as heavy-handed and patronising.
How exactly does one go about addressing a lack of professional parity in gender without bringing gender into it?
It may not be a big issue in small press and web-comics, but the top paying jobs in comics (i.e jobs for the big two) are all dominated by men.
And does it come across as heavy handed and patronising? Fucked if I know, what with me being a man and all. But I don't think men showing concern for this sort of thing is bad. Sure, we may get it all arse ways, but you can't blame a man for at least trying.
CFM is right, do any writers or artists want to be known for their gender first? Oh he's a male writer? A good writer/artist yes a "lady writer/artist/editor/whatever no. I totally understand why people hide their genders, totally.
Quote from: stacey on 12 March, 2013, 05:47:32 PM
CFM is right, do any writers or artists want to be known for their gender first? Oh he's a male writer? A good writer/artist yes a "lady writer/artist/editor/whatever no. I totally understand why people hide their genders, totally.
But discussing the broader issues of gender in comics and labeling any individual foremost by their gender (race, sexuality anything really) aren't the same thing. Of course any creator wants to be judged on the quality of the work they create (I'd think and hope, but I guess shouldn't presume) but we're (again maybe I shouldn't presume and should say I) not really talking about individuals here, aside from siting individuals as evidence of a point.
So for example by my saying I really like some of the work by Ann Nocenti and Louise Simonson (as started all this) is not related to their gender, but rather the fact as writers they have produced some bloody good work. This has (as in the article first linked to) inspired a far broader discussion as to why in a quantitative way there aren't more female creators working at the 'top end' (I know, I know, that's why I've put that in inverted commas) and the comic we come here to talk about.
I think I'm missing the point then. I'm saying there are plenty of women in comics, just not in the mainstream. Thing is I don't know a single women who wants to be in the mainstream, they want to make their own comics and tell their own stories and you know make comics and money etc for themselves. I don't see how this is "less" I think this is far cooler and far more right on.
If the question is why aren't there more women creators in 2000ad specifically then possibly the title of the thread needs changing as that isn't clear. And I don't know the answer to that.
But speaking for myself as a women in comics I'm doing alreet - cheers for asking.
Quote from: stacey on 12 March, 2013, 08:30:49 PM
Thing is I don't know a single women who wants to be in the mainstream
Fuckin' hipsters
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 12 March, 2013, 07:11:22 PM
Of course any creator wants to be judged on the quality of the work they create (I'd think and hope, but I guess shouldn't presume) but we're (again maybe I shouldn't presume and should say I) not really talking about individuals here, aside from citing individuals as evidence of a point.
So for example by my saying I really like some of the work by Ann Nocenti and Louise Simonson (as started all this) is not related to their gender, but rather the fact as writers they have produced some bloody good work.
Then this topic - which you started about Ann Nocenti and Louis Simonson, is about individuals in comics. Not women in comics, not gender in comics but those two creators. "Ann Nocenti and Louise Simonson in comics" you should've called it.
Quote from: stacey on 12 March, 2013, 08:30:49 PM
Thing is I don't know a single women who wants to be in the mainstream, they want to make their own comics and tell their own stories and you know make comics and money etc for themselves. I don't see how this is "less" I think this is far cooler and far more right on.
Bang. The mainstream isn't the be-all and end-all of comics, and no field should be represented by the top-earners or the most influential members of it.
Quote from: CrazyFoxMachine on 13 March, 2013, 12:33:49 AM
Then this topic - which you started about Ann Nocenti and Louis Simonson, is about individuals in comics. Not women in comics, not gender in comics but those two creators. "Ann Nocenti and Louise Simonson in comics" you should've called it.
You make some excellent points there CFM, and Stacey is spot on with her observation "do any writers or artists want to be known for their gender first?". However, suggesting we become gender-blind and it doesn't matter is overlooking the fact that from the 35 year history of my favourite self-styled 'ground-breaking' comic, I can name exactly one female writer off the top of my head. That
is a situation worthy of comment. I suppose I'm coming from a mindset that believes
all things are better when they are open to and engage a mix of genders, and believing that the best way to achieve this situation is to examine why it isn't happening.
QuoteThe mainstream isn't the be-all and end-all of comics, and no field should be represented by the top-earners or the most influential members of it.
Yes, absolutely right - although somewhat inevitably a field
will be represented by its most influential members, whether we like it or not. I do think this gets to the heart of the matter though: mainstream comics are hideously moribund and self-consuming, and traditionally created by men and read by ageing boys (although, yet again, we have catalogued the significant role played by women). Anyone up and coming in to the field
won't be slaved to the narrowest of forms. And that's a good thing, and certainly agrees with the observations regardaing indie, small press and the web - and indeed the GNs on the shelves of bookshops as opposed to comics shops.
As to:
Quote"Women in Comics"
"Who wants to look at womens underware"
"Conan, what is best in life?"
;)
Quote from: CrazyFoxMachine on 13 March, 2013, 12:33:49 AM
Bang. The mainstream isn't the be-all and end-all of comics, and no field should be represented by the top-earners or the most influential members of it.
No. Not bang. In fact, that statement is so far from 'bang' that the only way to effectively measure its distance from 'bang' is by measuring the red shift in the light that reaches it from the dying embers of 'bang'.
The top earners/most influential segment of a field should be
precisely as representative as the rest of it. If this is not true, then this is a
textbook example of inequality.
"No senior managers or chief executives in the NHS, you say? Well, look just at all these nurses. No gender equality issues here, nosiree, bob!"It's no surprise to me that there are few women in mainstream comics (and, indeed, far fewer than I recall in US comics from my youth) since the level of objectification and sexualisation of women, and levels of violence against women that are deemed acceptable are now so high that I'm surprised
any women can stomach it.
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 13 March, 2013, 08:10:39 AM
Quote from: CrazyFoxMachine on 13 March, 2013, 12:33:49 AM
Bang. The mainstream isn't the be-all and end-all of comics, and no field should be represented by the top-earners or the most influential members of it.
No. Not bang. In fact, that statement is so far from 'bang' that the only way to effectively measure its distance from 'bang' is by measuring the red shift in the light that reaches it from the dying embers of 'bang'.
The top earners/most influential segment of a field should be precisely as representative as the rest of it. If this is not true, then this is a textbook example of inequality. "No senior managers or chief executives in the NHS, you say? Well, look just at all these nurses. No gender equality issues here, nosiree, bob!"
It's no surprise to me that there are few women in mainstream comics (and, indeed, far fewer than I recall in US comics from my youth) since the level of objectification and sexualisation of women, and levels of violence against women that are deemed acceptable are now so high that I'm surprised any women can stomach it.
Cheers
Jim
A CEO position in the NHS is a different skillset to nursing. So what's gender got to do with anything?
Edit: Never mind.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 13 March, 2013, 10:26:09 AM
Edit: Never mind.
Went through the same thing myself there, Jim.
You want mainstream? You don't get much more mainstream than Posy Simmonds.
But I'm fairly relaxed that a cultural niche like comics might not be 100% gender balanced. We should do our best not to exclude people or make them feel unwelcome or weird for arbitrary reasons like chromosomal alignment. Beyond that, it comes down to taste and free choice, and if not as many women want to get involved as men, that's fair enough. There are plenty of cultural niches where there are more women involved than men, and that's okay too.
I think a lot of this fretting over why there aren't more women in comics is just a bit of a nerdy inferiority complex. If there were more girls we'd feel less like outsiders and look cooler and more respectable. Sod that. Make good comics, try not to be too much of an arsehole, and what happens happens.
Quote from: Patrick on 13 March, 2013, 11:15:29 AM
You want mainstream? You don't get much more mainstream than Posy Simmonds.
Well yeah, that's sort of the point: Posy is one of the best writer/artists out there, and her strips and GNs are
everywhere. And yet here we are, a thread on a comics forum where several posters have never heard of her or would never dream of reading her. So mainstream she is,
comics mainstream she is not.
QuoteI'm fairly relaxed that a cultural niche like comics might not be 100% gender balanced.
Fair enough, so am I, but how about getting above 5%? Your point about
just making good comics is obviously the most important one of all, but I believe that an increase in female creators into what at its financial (but not creative) heart is a niche medium swimming in ever-decreasing circles could only have this result. If nothing else sourcing the best creators from the whole population rather than 50% of it is a numbers game.
I'm getting weary of this topic (no reflection on Patrick's articulate post, mind!), so what's hopefully my final point is this: anyone who thinks that the balancing out of gender opportunities and profile in specific industries
just happens is fooling themselves. Maybe it doesn't matter that the spandex'n'capes brigade remains largely a boy's club (for all the exceptions cited above), and the gender balancing is taking place at the real vibrant edge of comics, on the 'free' web and in lush Fantagraphics hardbacks, but personally I'd like to see that change throughout. It can
only be good for the industry and the artform.
Not sure we should be blaming "sexualisation" for the unbalanced gender profile of Western mainstream comic readers/creators. I hope we can draw a distinction here between sex and sexism.
The only comic my wife actually likes is The Cobweb. She's totally okay with it being "sexualised", but it helps that it has interesting female characters and high quality writing and artwork. No doubt Melinda Gebbie's contribution as artist/co-creator makes a massive difference here, and let's not forget that the writer of Cobweb is also reportedly quite good too.
Quote from: Jimmy Baker's Assistant on 13 March, 2013, 12:53:32 PM
Not sure we should be blaming "sexualisation" for the unbalanced gender profile of Western mainstream comic readers/creators. I hope we can draw a distinction here between sex and sexism.
You will note that I also mentioned objectification and astonishing levels of violence against women. Women who are central characters are frequently threatened with rape, the ones in more subsidiary roles can find themselves dismembered for no better reason than motivating the male lead with whom they were in a relationship to stop moping about and go after the Big Bad. I don't recall any male (outside a Garth Ennis comic) being threatened or actually raped in a mainstream book, nor a book where a female lead character's significant other turned up as body parts in a fridge.
Don't misunderstand me, I do
not confuse sex and sexism. I actively applaud Moore and Gebbie's attempt do something interesting under the label of porn, for example. In large part, terms like 'erotica' translate to 'the kind of porn I like'... if it's the kind of porn you like, and no one gets hurt making or using it, well, fair enough.
I would observe that the mainstream comic industry seems heavily predicated on selling teenage boys' wank fantasies to men who should, really, have outgrown such things. Campaigns like the Hawkeye initiative show up how widespread and how ludicrous it really is; adding in rape and violence contribute to an atmosphere that
may feel positively misogynistic. Not being a woman, it's hard for me to comment on how all this makes women feel, but their absence from that part of the industry
suggests that it is not creating an inviting atmosphere for them.
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 13 March, 2013, 01:10:17 PM
I would observe that the mainstream comic industry seems heavily predicated on selling teenage boys' wank fantasies to men who should, really, have outgrown such things.
I was reading Red Hood and the Outlaws #17 and
all of the Bat Family are wandering about Wayne manor in casual wear (http://i.newsarama.com/images/rhoodo_17_4.jpg) and Starfire is flying about looking as she does when my wife happened to look over my shoulder and I honestly didn't have any answer or comeback to her question of why "women always drawn like
that (http://readrant.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/starfire-1.jpg) and men look normal", your comment would of been an all too true response Jim.
I agree with Jim.
Like the pop music industry, the spandex brigade produces a lot of porn for cowards.
Quote from: sheldipez on 13 March, 2013, 01:53:23 PMI was reading Red Hood and the Outlaws #17 and all of the Bat Family are wandering about Wayne manor in casual wear (http://i.newsarama.com/images/rhoodo_17_4.jpg) and Starfire is flying about looking as she does
What is especially baffling about that is that Starfire is one of the most popular characters in the Teen Titans cartoon show, a series seen by millions upon millions of young people around the world with lots of disposable cash to spend on things they recognise, yet the comics version is a different character entirely in order to sell to - at most - 40 thousand people in a brief window of PR opportunity that closed roughly two months after the book hit shelves. I understand taking a creative gamble is sometimes necessary, but there comes a point when you have to point at something and say "that is not a gamble, it's a pattern of behavior, and it's now a self-destructive one."
A conclusion I'm coming to is that an awful lot of geeky behaviour is based on having been blown away by something at an impressionable age, and then devoting the rest of your life to trying to chase that blown away feeling and get it back - and obviously getting older, with more experience of life and fiction, you're harder to impress or surprise, so you can never feel that way again, and you get seriously diminishing returns from it. Your palate gets jaded and it takes more and more extreme content to stimulate it.
Superhero comics, in pandering to the jaded palates of their hardcore readers (who for historical reasons are largely male), put off a wider readership (and the wider your readership, the wider the pool of potential creators). So they have to make money by squeezing more money out of a dwindling number of fans, hence the "all crossovers, all the time" approach and the ridiculous oversized and overpriced hardbacks of comics that have been collected numerous times. Whereas something like Star Wars or Doctor Who try to appeal to a wider audience and end up rather more successful, but hated by their hardcore "fans" for failing to make them feel like they did when they were nine.
I couldn't agree more, Patrick.
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: TordelBack on 13 March, 2013, 12:45:31 PM
Well yeah, that's sort of the point: Posy is one of the best writer/artists out there, and her strips and GNs are everywhere. And yet here we are, a thread on a comics forum where several posters have never heard of her or would never dream of reading her. So mainstream she is, comics mainstream she is not.
And why would she want to be? Her
real mainstream is so much bigger, more lucrative and more prestigious than our poky little "mainstream".
Quote from: Patrick on 13 March, 2013, 03:54:22 PM
And why would she want to be? Her real mainstream is so much bigger, more lucrative and more prestigious than our poky little "mainstream".
I think you misunderstand me here! Of course Posy's mainstream is the
real mainstream, and where she should be - she's the business. Mainstream comics should aspire to her level of craft and sustained broad-based success, not the other way around. My point is that many comics fans (wrongly) wouldn't even consider Posy's work as
comics - the mainstream of comics is
still the superhero boys: there's what, 120-odd superhero books a month, still chasing the same shrinking pool of readers? And for all the reasons you so perfectly articulate in your post above, which really couldn't be phrased better.
Quote from: TordelBack on 13 March, 2013, 04:14:19 PM
I think you misunderstand me here!
I hoped I had. But I thought the point deserved labouring.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 13 March, 2013, 01:10:17 PM
You will note that I also mentioned objectification and astonishing levels of violence against women.
Absolutely, and I did not take issue with those points, nor indeed do I disagree with you on anything substantive, I just want to be clear that Puritanism is not the solution.
Quote from: Patrick on 13 March, 2013, 03:48:00 PM
A conclusion I'm coming to is that an awful lot of geeky behaviour is based on having been blown away by something at an impressionable age, and then devoting the rest of your life to trying to chase that blown away feeling and get it back - and obviously getting older, with more experience of life and fiction, you're harder to impress or surprise, so you can never feel that way again, and you get seriously diminishing returns from it. Your palate gets jaded and it takes more and more extreme content to stimulate it.
Quoted for truth.