Did you know:
"The law now allows for a ?25 'on the spot' fine for littering"
take singapoer then
we all live in tower blocks under quota system of equal racail mix.the new ones have clinics, shopping malls and underground and monorail,gyms and swimming complexes. libray and creche factilites..intergrated,with a police post on site.
instant fines are normal.
search warrants? you wish power of instant search for internal security reasons.
all police are armed and empowered to shoot to kill and or stop any persons considered to be advancing in a threatening manner.
customs inspection is overseered by the police force,.
they have a list of banned substances including = CHEWING GUM.
NO SMOKING in any public air condiontined area.
NO SMOKING at any public concentration area.bus stop,football stadiums and so on.
every citizen is asigned a number at birth. this is yours for life and is used for every single thing you ever do.from a library card to your travel ticket for the bus cash is being phased out very very quickly and only accounts for 37% of all transactions.
thumb print recognition is being introduced for immagration.as in go on hliday, place your thumb there please sir.
welcome to the future.mega city one. is closer then you can imagine.
actually DD i find all those rules very threatening ! can i retreat to my round hut please?
threatening yes. but i have to offer the fact.
very very low crime rate.
violent crime negliable
spotlessy clean.
safe to walk home at night.
no homeless people
drugs whilst aviable are not easily found.
sexaul crimes lowest in the region.
but it is a the very closest you can get to a judicail state in this century.
and one i note when i return to the UK.here NO DARK PLACES, everywhere lit. parks included only exception being the natrue reserve though it has police patrols and police a police post of course.
'shoot to kill/stop any persons considered to be advancing in a threatening manner'.
If this was applied in Scotalnd there wouldn't be young men left in the cities...
Oh and what about the country side outside Singapore's city wall? migrant workers, slums, pass cards? very MC1 cursed earth
>If this was applied in Scotalnd there wouldn't be young men left in the cities...
And Essex would be deserted. Hmm, maybe not such a bad idea. Is there anything the Singapore legal system about using rocket launchers on Escort RS Turbos?
the country side would be JB malaysia,
singapore is a city state.man made parks. and zoned leisure areas.
to be honest. yes slum in many parts of JB . going through massive upgrading now. but very bad in comparison. high crime rate. drugs.prostition in the city centre in the giuse of hair dressing salons.
value of money is even half that of singapore.two ringit = 1 singapore.
Migrant workers = illegals from indonesia.
menail tasks done by legal workers on very very low wages. think one months work = 120 pounds.
and one more, you want to come in.stay longer then a visitors pass of a month, just go for yoru full medical and blood tests. your birth cert. and id papers will be checked and if you are not up to scratch sorry please leave.
singapore is as they say
fact being stranger tehn fiction.
anohter one to ponder on.
jail.= solitary confinment one hour excercise in 24,addressed only by your number never name.
all violent crime = life
crime with fire arm even if not used= death
drugs = death
sexaul assault= 20 years
people who commit suicide are then charged after death as they committed an illegal act. if they do not succeed in the act of killing themsleves they are charged and locked up.
with charges ranging form wasting police time to causeing a public niusance or a danger to others by reckless acts.
if you are handicapped in anyway. no matter how minor. you will not be granted any residence status.
the parrells of city life in MC1 or based on large numbers of people living in close proximatey. they are likely more correct then you can imagine.
But also very low rate of freedom?
I like all those rules and will consider adopting them for my own despotic regime.
I particularly like the idea of banning chewing gum. The pavement outside my office if covered with disgusting, ancient spots of it. Gross.
Well done to Singapore for leading the way!
- Never forget the Trout is evil
No matter how 'successful' facism is in making the streets safe for old ladies, it is also brutal. The ruling elite remains a fixed body, and any freedoms you do possess only exist because this small body of people allow it. And these people are only that, people, possessing the same vices as all of us (perhaps more; what does it take to win power?).
Oh - and Singapore is not a democracy in even our limited sense of the word. You might have a vote but you don't have a voice.
But - this kind of 'for our own good' facism is coming here, with people all to eager to throw away freedoms to deal with insubtantial phantoms.
Sorry, my leige, I wasn't referring to your enlightened paternalistic vision, but the anti-Royal menace of Sino-Cit 2
I seem to remember this man had a good word to say on the subject....
Link: Mr Cyberpunk goes to Singapore
?25 for littering?
Too good for those litterbug scum. Heavier fines or incarceration or both I say.
The only problem with facism is it always attracts selfish people.
Now if I were king of the world..
Jared Katooie
now i am very very scared of this well lit crime free world, I'll stick to the wild west & rocket launchers on RS escorts, dark places, pub brawls & a community that cares about each other.
to make you smile
the link cyber punk goes to goes to singapore.
comes up as
this site is banned under the seciton what ever of the information act of singapre 1998
i rest my case ladies and gentle men of the jury. i take its the famous
disney with the death penalty one from the new york times. thats a famously banned one.
or something of that nature.
Well guessed DD. I will read that later, seems like an interesting place over there, man.
rotts
Yes you guessed correct DD
You don't live in Judge Dredd, you live in Big Brother pal, ++notgood
Actually DD sone of that quite appeals to me.
The police here are far too lenient..
I live in Northern Ireland and the police here are far, far, far too lenient.. I think they should have more power to crack heads, everyone knows who is doing what but the pathetic legal system allows them to continue with the intimidation, rackateering, kneecapping, and general pain in the ass to everyone who just wants to get on with things.
What we need is not so much a zero tolerence, more a 'takin no shit, sonny boy' police force.
If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear.
"If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. "
There are constant abuses of power in law. One this week has just been brought to light, a mother who did nothing wrong but was imprisoned for 3 years, until acquited. Vital evidence withdrawn or forgotten supressed by someone (either the police or the crime prosecution service). The Birmingham 6 and a number of others are similar examples. They had done nothing wrong. In an enlightened society we have a reasonable goverment, but what happens if say the BNP are voted in?? (Not a big leap in logic given immigration problems and a possible war with Iraq), you suddenly have powers (without them even changing the law) taht allows them to intimidate opponents and reduce their opposition to nothing. This is an extreme example but I think every one knows what Im saying.
This is part of what Wagner warns us about in Dredd. The Judges may crack heads but they are trianed for years, almost brainwashed into being the perfect judging machines. Even then though there are numerous cases when "human nature" takes over from idealogy, corruption occurs, we all have something to fear.
Fortunately our legal system, relies on a basic presumption that you havent committed a crime. It is up to the police and the lawyers to prove that you have. Any change in this is fundamentally wrong, in my opinion.
yer "serious" Slippo
I'm with Slippo.
If a public agency is given a power, it will use it. That's a reasonable assumption to make.
Even with checks and balances like ombudsmen and pressure groups, mistakes are made by every public agency.
Therefore, if the UK government derogates from its - legally binding - obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights, people will suffer.
I suspect proper enforcement of existing laws would solve many of the problems Umpty describes.
- Trout
"If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. "
yeah with the slips on that one...
And it's only just recently that they've decided to give some sort of help, councilling, finding somewhere to live etc to people who are let out of prison after being found not guilty...
Well it does but: it's always been a reportable offence, they haven't printed the ticket books yet, I can't imagine anyone will enforce it unless a litterer takes the piss, ie throwing ti at a coppers feet.
IINM, certain high street retailers in this country won't now allow credit card purchases in selected branches unless a thumb print is taken.
"If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. "
Then can I come look through all your stuff? Why not - I'm just an average Joe without any power.
The police, on the other hand, have a lot of power. And some of them are decidedly less than average with regard to compassion, fairness and respect for diversity.
"compassion, fairness and respect for diversity"
Believe it or not it's a pretty hard job under pretty trying conditions. Tell you what I'll turn up at your work and scream "C**t" at you for an hour, then I'll make you search a decomposing body for i.d, then I'll send you to a fatal RTA and a violent domestic, then when your finished that I'll scream "Wanker " at you, and if at any time you look annoyed or lose composure I'll put in a complaint against you.
During this time I'll complain if you drive too fast but equally complain if your not instantly at my door when I phone up. I'll complain if you give me a speeding ticket but also complain theres too many deaths in the road. But don't worry if you get killed on duty I'll write nice things about you in the paper. Which makes up for the rest of the time when all the worlds ills are your fault.
Inverness uses the thumb print visa card thing...ha ha i hardly have any prints from excessive wear.
seriously ..Jim bob has points. Now i grew up as a pretty militant anarchist during thatcher years. (no i never did anything nasty cos i'm intrinsically somone who cares about stuff). so to us the pigs were the pigs, one of the most horrific sights to my young nieve idealistic anti-state eyes was my loved one being dragged away by the hair by too 'pigs'... but wait... what were they supposed to do? let a bunch of crusties invade the scottish office & sit on malcom rifkinds desk ? (woulda been good eh !)...loads of other stories like a pal with a police horse hoof print on back....real adventure days
But guess what , i grew up, i met police as people , i stopped being paranoid, The actual polis on the beat are jist doing a job, mosta them are really nice & really do just wanna to the right thing. One time i got my rights read to me, the chap felt so sorry for me he came back to my shop the next day & spent loads.
nahh don't hassal the rank & file, hassal the state, the fashist judges , the shark lawyers, the greedy politicians.
(tho the idea of a row of riot polis banging on shields still sends me into fight or flight terror! shudder !)
"compassion, fairness and respect for diversity"
My point wasn't; the police are a bunch of wankers.
But rather; the police are people just like me, you and that guy across the road.
And just like me, you and that guy across the road, we have prejudices, political beliefs, jelousies and who knows what else guiding our behaviour. And, while it might be the case that the police may be less obnoxious, on the whole, than the average, 'me, you and that guy across the street', they have still been all too human on many, many occassions.
This does not apply only to police, but to all people with power - whoever they are.
And when you reply quoting the stress that your job places you under - I understand. But you must see that giving some people more power under that kind of stress would not result in entirely responsible use of that power.
I have seen police officers goading young lads into a fight. I have seen people being carted off to the police station and placed on police bail because of police frustration unconnected with the incident at hand. I am from South Yorkshire - I know what the police can do at their worst - drafted in from outside during the miner's srike.
But I have also seen very compassionate police. Twice I have worked as a civilian in police station, and seen likable, intelligent, just men and women who care about what they do and how they do it. I have worked in reception on a council building that dealt with young offenders and community safety, and met police officers who are nothing but commendable.
But if you think more powers will breed more of the latter an less of the former then we can only disagree.
Everyone is shaped by their experiences and the truth is any one policing an Urban area in the UK today is not going to be overly interested in being warm and fuzzy, we want to get the job done and hold things together. Its very easy to criticise but not only do we have to deal with the social problems that are so evident but we also have been abused by Governments since the mid-70s as an area of social expermentation. Democratically elected politicians were responsible for Poll tax, for the mine closures, for the vast majority of marches and protests we are involved in. They set the laws and more importantly they set the rules of engagement. Yuo don't like whats being done use your vote.
The vast majority of Police today could get paid more elsewhere and have much better working conditions. We stay out of duty and loyalty to each other, under an ever increasing load of paper work, media abuse and erosion of any respect we were once held in.
Every one is an expert on Policing, every one knows better. If you haven't done the work you really can't understand the pressure of making hugely important decisions when dead on your feet knowing any mistake can lead to you being crucified, but also knowing you HAVE to make that decision.
That may all sound overly cynical and defensive, but the fact is we cna never win all we can do is try and hold on.
so JB, would you say your collegues dealt with this by becomeing hardened , or is everyone demoralised?
how do you deal with shite like policing a protest if you agree with the protesters? or do you ever? don't you get really angry that you could be spending the time chasing the reall bad guys? how do you keep going?
"...under an ever increasing load of paper work, media abuse and erosion of any respect we were once held in..."
I have to agree. I find it unbelievable the way a lot of kids today are brought up to virtually take the piss out of the system and those that are there to enforce it.
It won't be long before the Police won't be ABLE to make an arrest without violating somebody's rights. It's a shit job with fewer and fewer rewards, and I for one simply couldn't do it. Some spotty youth spitting at me and telling me to f*ck off?
I'd knock the little bastard's teeth in and weather the storm afterwards...
i dont live in the Uk anymore. but from what little i know. i must ask , what happened?
we now have a growing gun culuture.
increased violent crime,drugs and drug related crime.
for all the lack of liberty here in singapore. i know my son will not find a crack dealer near his school.that my wife can walk home at night, and i can wear a decent watch every day.things i can not gaurantee in many parts of the uk anymore.
would zero tolarance work in the UK, who knows,but its got to be worth considering.
but something i think is important is this.
i teach my son to respect the person in a police uniform.
its important.
I just want to say that this thread is one of the most intelligent discussions I have read in a good while.
The issues at hand ARE important. The police, unfortunately are overstretched and underfunded, as are all public services.
I am in the support for health care business myself and my wife is an A/E nurse. On the whole, she regards the police as people who sometimes have to do a crappy job, for not much pay (in relation to the crap dealt with). The same can be said for millions of people in the UK today. I haven't got much of an opinion myself, never having more than the barest contact with the police, but I thought that even if I am not contributing directly, I should let you know I am following.
Note for DD: How old is Devon?
rotts
Zero Tolerance won't work in the UK for a couple of reasons. The main one is number of officers and tiem to proccess prisoners. New York is often used by lazy politicians to hit Brit Forces over the head with saying, they reduced criem significantly by having officers walking the streets and using zero tolerance. What they don't mention is the massive increase in Police numbers that allowed a coppper on every corner and that Giulliani supported the Police union to the hilt (possibly too far at times). What the Daily Mail and its ilk are demanding is we replicate the New York success despite the handycap of a home office who can't decide whether they hate us or want us as storm troopers to deal with which ever group they've pissed off this week and comparatively low numbers of operational units.
My son DEVON is six this month.and he is the most important thing in my world, it makes me feel good to just say that.
the new york style.i have a fair point of reference here.
i used to go to NY,very regular.with QE2.
over those years i saw huge improvements in the standards of street crime, as a tourist it was very plain to see.
in my first year 90. it was as scarry as you can imagine,lots of seedy bars,sex shows and theatres in the 42nd street area up to times square and around empire state.dont even consider central park.by the time i left the ship 94 it had totally changed. cops on every corner. almost.but generally a lesser feeling of fear.cops walk the street. a true deterent.
to be honest i think the former mayor got it right.its not perfect,i know.but it improved massively under his term of office.
i agree more cops on the beat.it works.we have it out here it works.
i would not see any wrong in it being replicated in the UK.
"If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear. "
Ok, point taken there.
What I was refering to was street level crime, armed robbery, assult, intimidation, car theft etc.. If the police know the villins involved in these crimes then they should get in there.
What happened to that mother is disgusting. It seems that the criminal system is more concerned about getting a conviction rather than convicting the right person.
The doctor involved in the original trial withheld vital information and gave misleading figures to the original jury. Why in gods name did he do this???
Who advised him on what to say?
Because of his information this woman spent three years in prison.
Can she now sue the government (or whoever is to be held accountable)?
And who much do you think something like this is worth?
The mind boggels.
++What happened to that mother is disgusting.++
And she was a white, wealthy, middle-class lawyer.
Imagine being a poor black man with a record...
(1) "What happened to that mother is disgusting"
It's a judicial process, and not policing matter, and frankly it's all still very confusing.
Yes, she can claim compensation and if I was her I would. She'll get lost earnings, compo for her lost reputation, plus lots more for her mental and any physical suffering.
It's come to somewhere in the middle of the six-figure bracket, I'd say, at a (fairly) educated guess.
(2) JimBob: For the record, I want to add I would never criticise the police.
Actually, I would, but only in specific instances where there's a story in it and they've actually stuffed up.
I'm aware how difficult a job it is. I know a lot of policemen (remember I'm a reporter on a local paper) and even socialise with a couple of inspectors, so I get all the stories and don't envy you all sometimes.
However, I stick to my guns on public agencies and the potential for mistakes. We cannot allow our police forces, or any other kind of authorities, too much power, and that's why I welcome the full introduction (since Labour came to power) of the European Convention on Human Rights.
It now has direct effect in all legal systems in the UK, and is the most important of those checks and balances I mentioned.
If David Blunkett continues to insist on derogation (suspension) of large parts of it, as he has post-911, people will continue to suffer.
Being Muslim and radical is NOT a crime. Yes, we must guard against terrorism, but having unpopular views - yes, even to the extent of liking Bin Laden better than Bush - is not yet against the law in this country.
That's what it's all about. If someone is caught with Semtex, or saying he wants to blow up Parliament, fair enough, lock him up.
But right now we are imprisoning people without trial (Guantanamo Bay), and judging minorities on their views rather than their intentions and generally being a bit panicky.
Being found with a picture of an admiral or a map of London does not automatically make you a terrorist, even if you are arrested with good reason.
This is not to say I don't believe the police need far more support than they get, but, summing up, my message is:
careful, now.
- Trout