2000 AD Online Forum

Obviously we aren't being told the whole story, do you reckon we will find out the real reason

a) just before we attack
b) after the war
c) in 20 years ?

BTW did you know that saddam backed a plot to assinate george bush senior when he visited israel years ago ?

clinton didn't do anything about it, perhaps its just a grudge match ?

I thought we knew already. We're going to war for

a)crude oil
b)distilling said crude oil to obtain petrol
c)filling the gas tanks of buicks all over the north american continent, not to mention selected pockets on the aforementioned continent.


I heard something about weapons too, but it was probably bollocks.

mat

Well, perhaps the 2000ad messageboard isn't the palce to get into it, but it's about the oil (http://www.scn.org/wwfor/iraqhist.html).

I think this man put it best:

They read good books, and quote, but never learn
a language other than the scream of rocket-burn
Our straighter talk is drowned but ironclad;
elections, money, empire, oil and Dad.

Andrew Morton, poet laureate

Well I suppose Saddam could be good mates with Osmana, they both hate America even if they are at opposite ends of the political/ideological ... I mean Hitler palled up with Stalin for a while

And a few empty shells well it's obvious... like Sadam's super-gun, what happened to that?

Sing-a-long-a-Dubya!]

(to the tune of If You're Happy And You Know It)

If you cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets are a drama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are frisky,
Pakistan is looking shifty,
North Korea is too risky,
Bomb Iraq.

If we have no allies with us, bomb Iraq.
If we think someone has dissed us, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections,
Let's look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.

It's "pre-emptive non-aggression", bomb Iraq.
Let's prevent this mass destruction, bomb Iraq.
They've got weapons we can't see,
And that's good enough for me
'Cos it'a ll the proof I need
Bomb Iraq.

If you never were elected, bomb Iraq.
If your mood is quite dejected, bomb Iraq.
If you think Saddam's gone mad,
With the weapons that he had,
(And he tried to kill your dad),
Bomb Iraq.

If your corporate fraud is growin', bomb Iraq.
If your ties to it are showin', bomb Iraq.
If your politics are sleazy,
And hiding that ain't easy,
And your manhood's getting queasy !
Bomb Iraq.

Fall in line and follow orders, bomb Iraq.
For our might knows not our borders, bomb Iraq.
Disagree? We'll call it treason,
Let's make war not love this season,
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq.

- (Not created by) The Trout

I genuinely believe it hardly matters what he says, even if Saddam had nukes sticking out the top of his palace noone will ever believe it's about anything but oil cos he's an oil man funded by oil men. He's not only a terrible diplomat, the man is impossible to like and as with Thatcher it's hard not to automatically take the contrary position just to piss him off. I'm certain there would be half the opposition if it were Clinton doing the same thing.

I ain't no hawk but neither am I a simpleton. It's not just about oil as I reckon we'll find in a few weeks.

ADE

Now, I can see why someone might argue that its not *entirely* about oil, but i'm afraid that if you reckon its not primarily about oil at all you're living in smackland.

Im in agreement its not just about oil.  I think most sensible people are in agreemnet that Saddam is a rather evil and nasty dictator, and its pretty awful that he may have some weapons of mass destruction.  

But there is a major amount of Hypocracy in the west.  We are allowed these weapons, but no one else is?  People have a right to be scared, because western leaders seem to be taking us to a war that currently I cannot see any real justification for.  Until we have some cpncrete proof of weapons, a plan fo their use or some intrinsical link to AlQueda.  I remain sceptical!

Basically the middle east is a mess, we the west need to clear up the Palastine/Isreal problem.  A problem that was created by us.  I think if something was put in place for this to happen the war may be easier to swallow.
 
However, Im no pacifist! I just want my brain to be engaged and be persuaded that this is the right course of action to take, basically, Im sick fed up of Blair and all his like (modern politicians) taking me for a fool.  He has to be able to justify war, not only to us (his electorate) but to the arab nations and to some degree their people.  

Yer "serious twice" Slippo

Oh, Saddams a bad boy bastard, thats for sure... But the US is not in the business of invading countries just because of that. And its a fair bet the Iraqis are going to end up with a goevnment thats only a shade less despotic.

Weapons of mass destruction, well thats just some mumbo jumbo scare tertm they started using when it became apparent he didn't have a nuclear capacity, to try and build up what ever Saddams got into a nuclear level threat, which it certainly isn't. I bet all the other wannabe Stalins out there have much worse up their sleaves.

The "terrorist connection" is a joke. The Iraqi opposition is more likely to have ties to Al-Quaida than Saddam, and its becoming abundantly clear that terrorists can fly planes through buildings and create chemical weapons perfectkly well without anything as old fashioned as a nation state.

And why is the middle east full of despots with inflated military budgets and terrorist problems anyway? Oil.

Art in rereading my post its a bit confusing, what I meant to say is that yes its primarily about Oil.  But there could be other things we could go to war for.  

I just wish someone would stop treating the public like fools (well Im not) and give us some sorta justification that makes sense.  You have just picked holes in the arguments for Weapons of mass destruction, terrorists and dictators and this is how I feel.  My brain is telling me that this war is wrong, because no politician has given me a concrete reason for the war.

yer Slippo  

>>The "terrorist connection" is a joke. The Iraqi opposition is more likely to have ties to Al-Quaida than Saddam.

Never mind the Iraqi opposition, what about some of Iraq's neighbours?

"Iraq has links with Al-Quaida" say Tone and George.  Uh-huh...  What nationality is Bid Laden?  What nationality were the overhwelming majority of the Sept 11 hijckers?  Where does Al-Quaida still secretly get a lot of its funding from?

"There's no such thing as democracy and freedom of speech in Iraq" say Tone and George.  Uh-huh...  And this differs exactly from how many other Middle Eastern countries around it?

So screw Iraq.  I say we invade Saudi Arabia instead.  They've got plenty of oil too, no weapons of mass destruction to use against us and we've already got troops on the ground there anyway.

You know it makes sense.

I think as there's several reasons for war it's a case of what people choose to concentrate on. Us government-wary westeners can say it's oil, Muslims can say it's about religion, Blair can say it's about weapons and humanatarianism. I think America are capable of capable of going to war over humanitarian causes (such as in Serbia), the fact oil is in there might clinch the matter though it doesn't mean it would never have happened otherwise. The easiest way to get oil from Iraq would be to drop all sanctions and turn a blind eye to Saddam's human rights abuses and expansionist tendancies.

One thing I believe is opposition groups have their own interests to promote. CND are happy for pro-Palastinians to make up the numbers on their marches you read the small print and they clearly disown their arguments.

ADE

Let's invade Jamaica, get wasted and tanned, and relax for a while.

I'd volunteer.

- Trout

There is only one concrete link between Saddam and bin Laden.  And that is US funding.

The thing a lot of critics of the 'it's all about the oil' position miss is this;

Yes, it will cost America billions to capture the oil fields of Iraq.  But those billions do not come from the pockets of Bush, Cheney and the other oil men.  They come from the average American Joe.  The people who will die are the average American Joe (disproportionately black - oh yeah, and a load of Ayrabs).  A large amount of the billions of dollars  'spent' will be paid to large military contractors. So, while it dissappears from the purse of the American government, where it could be used from housing, education, heathcare or welfare, it nevertheless reappears in the pockets of rich Americans who can already pay for these things.  And then the oil companies move in and make profits, thanks to the land won by the dollars and lives of the average American Joe.  The natiest kind of wealth redistribution there is.

Oh yeah, and it is about religion - George Bush is as fundamentalist as they come, and certainly a long way further down the religious nut scale than secular Saddam.

Oh, is it about safety?  Can you really tell me that if we go in there and kill Iraqis we will be safer - that terrorism will be less likely.  This is not an excuse to do nothing - but if you base your argument around defeating terrorism then a war isn't for you.

Oh, it's about human rights and democracy.  Yeah... that'd be it.  There is no workable reason for war - so therefore war is wrong.

Andrew B.

I think the war is gonni be about a chaotic mish mash of stuff which has snowballed beyond any of these idiot monkey boys brains to sensibly back track out of. Fundemantal ideology & i'm talking americas so called holy 'democracy' here, is one reason. oh yes & its good for the economy...arrrghhhh. Once again, some rich guys are gonni get subtley indirectly richer, while shed loads of horror & poverty & injustice once again are dumped on some lowly powerless folk some where.
What about the geographical strategic aspects? i believe a globe with little star/stripe pins in all the countries which america has in pockets , might be scary viewing.

& what about the way they are still treating those guys inprisoned in cuba...regimes of torture & terror?

whats amazing is that all the jo publics are not fooled by it any more, previous wars the tabloids have managed to whip everyone up , but people are just soo much wiser to the retoric nowadays...

Weird thing is, Joe Public seems to spend a lot of time talking about wether or not Joe Public is fooled by it. Thats dead weird that.

well having said that art... people have been nicely preoccupied by that murder trial with the ground up teeth & all, ahh thankyou tabloids for gratuitous bollox.

Oh, and tATu. I never thought i'd see the day when cheesy europop with a cheesey softcore porn video would cause such a fuss.

Dammit, let's go for North Korea, Dubya has already named them as part of the "Axis of Evil" with Saddam, and you don't have to wait for that pesky smoking gun thing - they've already acknowledged they have nuclear weapo.... oh hang on, THAT'S why we're not going to war with them.

-pj

Yeah it's a war for all the wrong reasons (unless the CIA have know something they are not telling us... yeah right) But it'll still get a totaly evil murderous dictator out of power.


So Iraq become a US puppet state... just like us then.

Oh yeah and I read in the paper today that tATu arn't even propperly lezzed up... well that's me not buying their single then.

well if there's going to be a sequal, I wonder if the value of my medal from Gulf 1 will go up?

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

But Gary... the y like boys too. Don't you see the possibilities?

I have a sudden urge tolisten to WAR PIGS very loud.

Oh God - a sequel.  

This is going to be a really shit war, then?

Hopefully - that will manifest itself in that it is boring, anti-climatic and has a tacked on hollywood happy ending.

Although - if it's part two out of three this promises to be the darkest of the bunch....

>But Gary... the y like boys too. Don't you see the possibilities?

Oh yeah, like one of us would have such a big chance of coping of with them. It's just a shame that it's a complete publicity stunt and they are totally manufactured. Having a gay duo was kind of interesting.

Besides I've saving myself for the Cheeky Girls

On the subject of war and Bush - everyone should read "Stupid White Men" by Michael Moore (a book that was nearly banned in the US of A becasue it said bad things, albeit truthful things, about Dubya)

It wasn't exactly banned, but the publishers did make pretty much every conceivable effort to kill it. Moores explanation of what happened is included in the introduction of the british paperback edition, which is probably worth getting just for  that introduction and the chapter on the election rigging in America.

I find Moore interesting not because hes particularly good at what he does (his use of selective facts for cheap shots frequently undermines whatever point hes trying to make) but because he seems to be the only one in America doing it.

OK, I'm going to shut up about politics now before I turn into Ben Elton.

Link: http://www.michaelmoore.com

>OK, I'm going to shut up about politics now before I turn into Ben Elton.

What a smug middle class tosser, who only extracts his tongue from the rectums of the rich and royal in order to dash off a musical that are so bad they should be banned by the Geneva convention?

>>What a smug middle class tosser, who only extracts his tongue from the rectums of the rich and royal in order to dash off a musical that are so bad they should be banned by the Geneva convention?

And, on that fun note, you'll be delighted to hear that Elton's scripting the movie version of the Lloyd Webber musical he wrote in which loveable working class Belfast types sort out the Troubles with a few games of footie.

Three things I bet Ben Elton really knows fuck all about:

a) Northern Ireland
b) working class people
c) football

Full gory details here:

Link: bejeezus!

To call Ben Elton a smug midle class tosser is an insult to self righteous bourgeois onanists everywhere.

I look forward to the day when Lord Elton pronounces that Thatcher was all right, really. It *will* happen, believe me.

BTW, here's a random selection from what came up when I typed "Ben Elton tosser" into Google. And there's plenty more where that came from.

Link: It's a hard life, being a sell-out

You cannot beleave how much I hate him now...

Just for inventing the word Fartie he deserves to die.

And I'm certain, from a number of interviews with cast members and other writers, his contribution to both Black Adder and The Young Ones was minimal but he's been riding it for years.

Arise Sir Ben... it's only a matter of time

'Got to get a double seat!' If I see you in station pal, you're going under a train

"And I'm certain, from a number of interviews with cast members and other writers, his contribution to both Black Adder and The Young Ones was minimal but he's been riding it for years."

Well it's worth remembering that The Young Ones main characters basically existed already from the Comic Strip club days. Ben was writing other's characters as he has been doing since - after the (far more complex and inspired) first series, Black Adder became entirely based around Rowan Atkinson's tried and trusted "sarcastic" delivery (and let's face it, the hugely overrated character only ever had one trait as did everyone else - Baldrick: stupid, Percy: pompous, Queenie: brattish), together with his ability to say "Bob" in an amusing way. Black Adder III was  Jeeves and Wooster in all but name. Thin Blue line was again based around Atkinson's performance rather than the other way around. Maybe Baby was UNWATCHABLE BOLLOCKS (how clever, the main character is writing a play about not being able to concieve...just like the author!) and full of the same trade mark guest appearances. Now he writes a show on the back of already popular Queen songs and it sells out - of COURSE it sells out, they can't go and see Queen! What's more, I believe they even case Nigel Planer to play, guess what? A hippy!

Basically it comes down to one thing - Ben CAN'T WRITE DRAMA and CAN'T WRITE CHARACTERS, only jokes for other people's characters to speak. Now don't start me on Richard Curtis...

ADE

So, Ben Elton is the real reason for war with Iraq. Our whole country is just lashing out in subconscious rage and disgust.

Has anyone read Better Than Sex : Confessions of a Political Junkie by Hunter S Thompson? It's about President Bill rather than Dubya, but it (particularly on their first meeting) shows a great side of Clinton.

Not to mention being sooo like Transmetropolitan it isn't true.

mat