I clambered aboard the 2000AD mother-ship a few years back when my life long passion for the superhero genre died a death. I know a load of folk on here read across a very wide cross section of genres but I am interested in firming up my perceptions of how many folk still dig their spandex and how many attach themselves more exclusively to 2000AD precisely because it offers an alternative?
Have never like the double gusset brigade, bring on The Boys and Marshall Law!!!
I dig Super-Heroes. But I'm rather picky about it. Savage Dragon, The Legion of Super-Heroes... okay I thought I had more but its really down to those two these days. And Legion's been cancelled for months. Oh, Invincible. But that's in the same mold as Savage Dragon. Historically I'm a fan of The Fantastic Four, but I haven't followed their titles recently. Mostly due to Marvel's pricing policies.
Oh. And ONE-PUNCH MAN, of course. Can't forget the best comics of 2013. Didn't even come from the US, its manga.
I think its important to keep in mind that like most genres, not all Super-Hero comics are the same. And closing off all super-hero comics just because they share some of the same tropes on display is short sighted.
2000 AD definitely represents an alternative to the mainstream, but there are a lot of alternative sources these days. But here's the interesting bit I think. I read 2000 AD for the same reasons I read mainstream super-hero comics in my youth. Action & Adventure. 2000 AD is a source of GREAT action/adventure comics. Which at their best, are what Super-Hero comics also provide. There actually isn't a lot of difference between Judge Dredd and the classic spandex set when you break it all down to its most basic elements.
More likely what not many of us are interested in is the concept of 'The Good' Hero or comics marketed for children which advance un-flawed versions. Shiny-happy Flash comics? No thanks.
Most people likely have time for a very good story or artist but don't want to buy into X-Men X-hundredth X-dition and all the continuity it involves. I've zero interest in any of the big titles but in the last year have read and enjoyed Hawkeye, X-Men Legacy and Astro-City.
I do find it odd many people say they wont read Dredd because of the mountain of continuity but they jump onto Batman or the Avengers which seems impenetrably continuity bound to me. Plus, ya know, nobody dies. I think Image's success is partly due to more mature audiences (which hero comics have helped create post The Dark Knight) want mature consequences. Like death.
Atm I'm stuck on deciding if I'll buy Batman Death By Design as I've no interest in the character or writer but really love the artist's work. One of them, innit.
Oh right, forgot about Astro City. Which is just fantastic, and it's absolutely drenched in classic super-hero tropes. But what makes Astro City great is that it's a commentary on those tropes and cliches. And those that read super-hero comics.
Yeah I love my superheroes, capes, pants brigade whatever you want to call them.
I am reading less and less new titles from the 'big two' down to just 4 at DC and one of them masquerades as Western and another couple are closer to Horror some might argue and all my Marvel titles are finishing! My current sending moving to more 'indie' titles. In there though there are some very good superhero titles, so The Victories for example, a very good title and not ya Grandma's superheroes that's for sure.
I still however lavish in back issues of sterotypical hero comics. Just this morning for example I was reading some of John Byrne's Superman run which I collected relatively recently. Such nostalgic tomfoolery seems to be more and more frowned upon, increasingly in the comics community, as we're all meant to be grown up and serious and what not. I however have no problem basking in a simple story, well crafted and well told. Superhero stories and comics bring out the best in each other I think and while I might be more picky about what I read there's a host of great old stories out there I just lap up.
No, I don't like superheroes any more. They are seemingly written for children and I'm an adult now.
For one thing, the whole premise is ridiculous. Attempting to stop crime by dressing up and going out on 'patrol', hoping you'll spot a crime which you can then sort of prevent? Stupid.
Not to mention the fact that modern superhero comics seem to be cynically exploiting their readers with endless, flaccid continuity-changing events, such as repeated character death/re-birth, which ALWAYS go back to normal in the end like a Saturday morning cartoon.
They are the soap operas of the comics medium and I'd be embarressed for any adult I see reading a modern Marvel or DC superhero comic.
In my view, they are wish-fulfilment power fantasies for impotent adolescents and I find them dreary, predictable and boring.
I DO however like most modern super-hero films as they aren't bogged down with years of porridgey continuity and try something new with old stories.
I also like shonen manga such as One Piece, Naruto, Bleach etc which could be viewed as the Japanese equivalent of American superhero comics. The reason I like it is that most manga (certainly the ones I mention) are, by comparison, original, inventive exercises in storytelling. There is a beginning, middle and end to these stories, unlike superhero comics which go on, and on, and on, and on, recycling the same storylines, characters, villains and tropes forever.
I'm still interested in them but I haven't gone out and collected a title for a long time; I'm even sorting through the collection now knowing more than 3/4 of my comics will be making their way to eBay (in the name of making more space if I'm honest) but I still go into comic shops to see what's happening although I mostly find myself in such stores now to look at the t-shirts and action figures now. Any superhero run that catches my eye can wait until it's available in collected editions but even then I was fully intending to start collecting the Waid run on DareDevil but decided against that, keeping "my DareDevil run" as Nocenti and the Chichester run up until a little after issue 300 (though I did add Miller's work to my collection a while later and had the Kevin Smith run but ended up selling the latter even tho I liked it) so I haven't actually picked up a collection for a while now that I think about it.
And yes, the True Believer in me has been giggling at times when I've got Lego Marvel Superheroes on but my interest in them, the checking up on them and their world from time to time, is little different to the people who use social networking sites to look at an ex's profile picture or whatever even if they don't really want to go back there.
I like super heroes but the only comics I read are the UK Spider Man reprints for the Superior Spider Man story which is great fun and the Panini Pocket Books of classic Marvel material (which I think are about the best value comics available).
Other than that it's just 2000ad and the odd TPB that takes my fancy.
I was following the Valiant titles but I haven't read any for the last few months - I'll catch up though.
Quote from: Spaceghost on 04 February, 2014, 12:23:33 PM
They are seemingly written for children and I'm an adult now.
I was wondering how long it would take to get this sort of post and had determined not to get involved in any sort of retort as that just seemed silly and not very productive. However there are some things said there that are silly so against my better judgement - hey here we go.
When has entertainment being designed for children meant it can't be enjoyed by adults. What utter rot and damned foolishness. There are countless examples of great children's entertainment enjoyed by adults across a host of media and comics are no different. So that's a none starter.
QuoteFor one thing, the whole premise is ridiculous. Attempting to stop crime by dressing up and going out on 'patrol', hoping you'll spot a crime which you can then sort of prevent? Stupid.
Well yes and they also fly. But hey did you know there is no such things as dragons and such like, or more pertinently here for example 2000ad is full of stories that are utter fantasy. That does make them bad stories.
QuoteNot to mention the fact that modern superhero comics seem to be cynically exploiting their readers with endless, flaccid continuity-changing events, such as repeated character death/re-birth, which ALWAYS go back to normal in the end like a Saturday morning cartoon.
Well yes that's hard to deny. It is however true of any almost any form of entertainment run as a business. People (at the business end) try to make a product that they can sell to people that people want to buy. It might not be nice it might not be pretty but don't kid yourself.
QuoteThey are the soap operas of the comics medium and I'd be embarressed for any adult I see reading a modern Marvel or DC superhero comic.
How very arrogant to be embarrassed on someone else's behalf for reading a comic. I read comics all the time in public, be they superhero or otherwise and trust me I don't want your pity or anything thank you. If you can't cope with someone engaging with a form of entertainment you don't get on with and get a little squirmy when you see in public don't say that's on someone else's behalf except that its your issue.
QuoteIn my view, they are wish-fulfilment power fantasies for impotent adolescents and I find them dreary, predictable and boring.
What all of them, you can see no exceptions to this? Your choice of course but there is a great deal of different comics out there even from the big two and such sweeping statements, be they short hand or otherwise are a bit daft.
QuoteI DO however like most modern super-hero films as they aren't bogged down with years of porridgey continuity and try something new with old stories.
So the superhero tropes you don't like in comics are fine in cinema then? Why the distinction between one medium or another?
QuoteI also like shonen manga such as One Piece, Naruto, Bleach etc which could be viewed as the Japanese equivalent of American superhero comics. The reason I like it is that most manga (certainly the ones I mention) are, by comparison, original, inventive exercises in storytelling. There is a beginning, middle and end to these stories, unlike superhero comics which go on, and on, and on, and on, recycling the same storylines, characters, villains and tropes forever.
Errr so again you seem to accept that its not about the superheroness (its a word) its about... well your personal taste then. Which is fine but it does make a bit of a travesty of some of the other points you attempt make.
As I say I had no desire to get embroiled in any sort of bickering on this subject, but felt this post was worth the effort.
Quote from: Prodigal2 on 04 February, 2014, 11:12:59 AM
I clambered aboard the 2000AD mother-ship a few years back when my life long passion for the superhero genre died a death. I know a load of folk on here read across a very wide cross section of genres but I am interested in firming up my perceptions of how many folk still dig their spandex and how many attach themselves more exclusively to 2000AD precisely because it offers an alternative?
Mostly entirely 2000 AD and some select indies/alt titles for me: Usagi Yojimbo, almost anything related to Hellboy, Atomic Robo, Saga. Then again, I grew up on British comics—first humour titles and then 2000 AD. That's my comics grounding, not superheroes. When I did get a Spider-Man or a Batman as a kid, it didn't really compare to Judge Dredd, Nemesis and Strontium Dog. Today, I still feel much the same way. I have a very small number of superhero titles, but I've not really read any that wowed me. I did enjoy the Ultimates line for a while, but that rapidly went downhill, with dodgy art and some slothful pacing.
I tried to get into Marvel Comics a few years ago. I enjoyed the Avengers (secret, mighty, new, etc etc etc) , but soon became annoyed with the money grabbing tactics of having to read multiple comics just to understand the full story.
Okay. I'm always doing this kind of thing. I go through long inner rationalisations with myself about various things and often end up feeling very strongly one way or another. I've been feeling increasingly angry and hostile towards the superhero genre for a while due to the reasons I've stated.
In an attempt to diffuse any potential bad feeling I'll address the points you make.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 04 February, 2014, 01:16:38 PM
When has entertainment being designed for children meant it can't be enjoyed by adults. What utter rot and damned foolishness. There are countless examples of great children's entertainment enjoyed by adults across a host of media and comics are no different. So that's a none starter.
Yes, you're right of course. I can sit and watch Toy Story with my kids and enjoy it just as much as they do. I suppose in the case of superhero comics, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of a grown man (or woman) spending substantial sums of money in order to wallow in these simplistic, juvenile, inconsequential worlds where nothing is ever resolved and nothing ever learned.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 04 February, 2014, 01:16:38 PM
Well yes and they also fly. But hey did you know there is no such things as dragons and such like, or more pertinently here for example 2000ad is full of stories that are utter fantasy. That does make them bad stories.
No. I stand by my original statement here. There are
so many regular comics based around the central conceit of an individual with power taking the mind-blowingly stupid decision to run around in tights thumping people as a serious attempt to cut crime. It
is ridiculous.
There's nothing wrong with fantasy, I've been reading 2000 AD most of my life so I'm well conversant in fantastic fiction. It's just such a boring, over-stretched, tired story that's been told too many times already.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 04 February, 2014, 01:16:38 PM
Well yes that's hard to deny. It is however true of any almost any form of entertainment run as a business. People (at the business end) try to make a product that they can sell to people that people want to buy. It might not be nice it might not be pretty but don't kid yourself.
That's just it. It's all about money. I know all entertainment is created with the purpose of making money but I like to think that comics such as 2000 AD treat their audience with more respect than your average Marvel or DC title.
You could say the same about music, films, books, anything. It's all created to make money but I would venture to say that there are some who respect their audience and manage to retain some artistic credibilty, and others which are churned out by a gigantic machine stinking of filthy lucre. To me, most superhero comics fit into the latter category.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 04 February, 2014, 01:16:38 PM
How very arrogant to be embarrassed on someone else's behalf for reading a comic. I read comics all the time in public, be they superhero or otherwise and trust me I don't want your pity or anything thank you. If you can't cope with someone engaging with a form of entertainment you don't get on with and get a little squirmy when you see in public don't say that's on someone else's behalf except that its your issue.
This is one of those times when I should have just shut up. I can't help it. If I see an adult on the train reading a superhero comic, I can't help but liken it to seeing someone thoroughly enjoying an episode of Big Brother or reading a Mills and Boon novel.
"Grow up and expand your tastes instead of accepting whatever shit the mainstream decides to shovel into your brain." is the sentence which automatically scrolls across my brain. I'm sure if I got talking to that person, we'd get on with each other. It's a knee jerk reaction.
I realise, also, that I sound like a horrible snob and that there are plenty of people who would see me reading The Nao of Brown on the train and make the same judgment.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 04 February, 2014, 01:16:38 PM
What all of them, you can see no exceptions to this? Your choice of course but there is a great deal of different comics out there even from the big two and such sweeping statements, be they short hand or otherwise are a bit daft.
I don't know if they 'all' are as I don't read any of them any more. From what I pick up from comic news sites, discussions on this forum etc, they all seem to follow the same basic formula and I haven't got time to wade through shit to find a diamond.
Also, when I've tried to read superhero comics which are critically acclaimed or rated highly by fans, I usually find it disappointing. I tried a Spider-Man story (about all Spider-Man's enemies being animal spirits) by Dwayne Swierzinski (sp?) which was touted as a masterpiece of some kind and I found it trite, poorly written and dull.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 04 February, 2014, 01:16:38 PM
So the superhero tropes you don't like in comics are fine in cinema then? Why the distinction between one medium or another?
I like the films precisely because they
avoid the particular tropes which I've discussed. They have a beginning, middle and end, there is character progression, they don't suffer from having to fit into any continuity.
They are a pocket version of the stories they are inspired by. They are a concentrated version of what made superheroes an interesting and exciting idea when they were originally concieved.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 04 February, 2014, 01:16:38 PM
Errr so again you seem to accept that its not about the superheroness (its a word) its about... well your personal taste then. Which is fine but it does make a bit of a travesty of some of the other points you attempt make.
No. It's because the manga I mention isn't held in thrall by the laws of the superhero comic. Batman can never end. The Joker can never repent. Alfred can never die. Bruce Wayne can never retire. It will all keep going on, and on in the same inconsequential manner, the characters learning nothing, never changing, never growing, never offering the reader anything but the most shallow and superficial illusion of story progression.
Hope that clarified my stance.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 04 February, 2014, 01:21:19 PM
Quote from: Prodigal2 on 04 February, 2014, 11:12:59 AM
I clambered aboard the 2000AD mother-ship a few years back when my life long passion for the superhero genre died a death. I know a load of folk on here read across a very wide cross section of genres but I am interested in firming up my perceptions of how many folk still dig their spandex and how many attach themselves more exclusively to 2000AD precisely because it offers an alternative?
Mostly entirely 2000 AD and some select indies/alt titles for me: Usagi Yojimbo, almost anything related to Hellboy, Atomic Robo, Saga. Then again, I grew up on British comics—first humour titles and then 2000 AD. That's my comics grounding, not superheroes. When I did get a Spider-Man or a Batman as a kid, it didn't really compare to Judge Dredd, Nemesis and Strontium Dog. Today, I still feel much the same way. I have a very small number of superhero titles, but I've not really read any that wowed me. I did enjoy the Ultimates line for a while, but that rapidly went downhill, with dodgy art and some slothful pacing.
Indigo I recently renewed a friendship with a childhood chum-we both loved all things Brit-Cit comic wise but then I departed for spandex and Americana and our friendship waned as well.
Meeting him for coffee tomorrow. I now regard him as superior in most ways to myself.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 04 February, 2014, 01:16:38 PMWhen has entertainment being designed for children meant it can't be enjoyed by adults. What utter rot and damned foolishness. There are countless examples of great children's entertainment enjoyed by adults across a host of media and comics are no different. So that's a none starter.
While I agree with the general thrust of this sentiment wholeheartedly - it's hard to imagine that the last few decades of Disney films would have been half as successful had they stripped out all content that might go over the heads of kids, ditto the maturing of the audience and product of the videogame industry - I think comics as an industry - superhero comics especially - are insulated from competing in the open market with other forms of entertainment and thus have become very insular and unfriendly to anyone except people who already read comics.
Marvel tried to break out of this cycle around the start of the millennium and ended up producing accessible, interesting and entertaining comics, but like DC, the company has become a subsidiary of a huge multinational corporation that views the actual comics themselves as an unimportant byproduct of keeping intellectual property in play so they can be adapted to games, tv or film, and as a result the books cater to their existing audience and become an increasingly inaccessible cycle of events and crossovers to the point that even #1 issues like
Mighty Avengers or the upcoming
Ms Marvel are intrinsically linked to ongoing crossovers that stem from events in other crossovers.
I think this isolation helps reinforce some notions about superhero comics that they don't deserve - particularly relative to other genres, as I find the cowboy and gangster genres
even more obsessed with the idea of machismo and silly costumes, and just to make things worse, they pretty much make a virtue of their inherent racism, misogyny, and having their own little language and tropes beloved of fans and deconstructionists alike. My experience of the superhero genre is that it's at least trying to move beyond all those things.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 04 February, 2014, 12:02:37 PM
I still however lavish in back issues of sterotypical hero comics. Just this morning for example I was reading some of John Byrne's Superman run which I collected relatively recently.
Phew thanks Colin, reading this interesting thread your posting turned my frown upside down. The future is in the past.....
Wendy
I 'inherited' a big box of Marvel comics from my Dad in the early 90s - they were the original runs of Thor, X-Men, Spiderman and Iron Man from the 1960s, that he'd collected as a boy (think there may have been some Doctor Strange and Hulk, too). I absolutely devoured them - weeks of my life were lost to those damn things. I was soon ripping off characters and plotlines for school projects, copying panels and plotting out my own epic space-operas. After a year or two I moved on to other things.
I've never felt the urge to pick up a superhero comic since. I feel exactly the same way about them as Spaceghost, frankly - but I can't even summon any enthusiasm for their big screen outings, either (with the occassional exceptions of Spiderman and Batman). I don't care how 'awesome' Downey Jr is meant to be as Iron Man, I don't care how good Whedon's Avengers film is supposed to be, I just have no interest in seeing them. And even less in picking up a Marvel/DC comic, even though comics in general count for a huge chunk of my spare time.
They're just so damn silly, in the most inherent way possible - I can see why they appeal to children, I can see why they appealed in the depression of the 1930s, but why on earth they're supposed to appeal to me now I have no idea. And to be honest they're the main reason I don't like telling people that I read comics - I couldn't stand to have them thinking I was eagerly devouring the weekly exploits of Superman or the like, even though I'd sing the praises of Tharg's output without shame.
No I'm not into superheroes any more. Early on I read quite a bit of Spiderman and Daredevil, but even then I was never fanatical about them. Mostly I'd get interested in one for a while and follow for a few months, but then I'd get bored and move on to something else.
It probably stems from not having much in the way of pocket money and for the price of a couple of comics I could buy a book instead. Outside of the prog and Meg the only comics I read now are generally science fiction or fantasy related.
Since I came back to the comics world I have tried to not limit myself to one particular genre. Whilst it is true that there are plenty of so-so superhero comics, there is also lots of great stuff that has come out over the years e.g. Dark Knight Returns, All Star Superman, Planet Hulk.
I do agree though that there is a problem with some of these comics that just run forever and don't really have a start, middle and end - most of the best stuff I have ever read does.
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 04 February, 2014, 03:10:13 PM
... And to be honest they're the main reason I don't like telling people that I read comics - I couldn't stand to have them thinking I was eagerly devouring the weekly exploits of Superman or the like, even though I'd sing the praises of Tharg's output without shame.
Oh boy I'm turning into the man defending superhero comics, that's a man I don't want to be, its an easy target. Alan Moore if he could careless would have some very caustic things to say about my emotional development I'm sure... some of his more dedicated followers here might likewise... ANYWAY enough silly comments to me beef (which will contain a load more I'm sure).
This type of thing drives me spare. Why should we be ashamed about our choice or reading or any other entertainment (that doesn't harm any other bugger that is). Why should Dark Jimbo be worried that reading comics is associated with superhero stuff. It doesn't chuffin' matter, or least ways damn well shouldn't. Surely we've moved on from that, or if we haven't its up to the comic readers out there to continue the shift. In 1986 - 198 chuffin'- 6 we started to see newspaper articles stating 'Comics have grown up at last' almost 20 years ago. Loads of popular culture is now formed around things that were once firmly in the remit of nerds and geeks. Zombies are big news, superhero movies the biggest grossing films year on year (that might not actually be a fact but I'm on a roll here so please bear with me), computer games played by millions deal with post apocalypse alien invasions (see previous bracketed statement). Half the telly and film that are big news are created by people who grew up reading comics (you know the drill by now).
We've moved on.
If you're worried that some bugger would look down at you for reading a comic that they might - MIGHT -associate with superheroes point them to the lines of people that will be outside several potential massive movies this summer about just that thing. Let them know that comics aren't just superheroes, don't be ashamed be out and be proud. I wipe mine out in public on a regular basis, if anyone has a problem with that that really is their's and their ignorance. If they smirk at my superhero reading, well fine and dandy really not my problem and I'm still sure they are by and large a nice person but I'll hide no more I tells ya.
Hell even this anachronistic (look at me trying to use posh words to bolster by pro-capes naively optimistic rant) idea that ALL superhero comics are an on-going endless soap opera is just plain silly. There are hundreds of perfectly good superhero comics out there that have perfectly good beginnings, middles and ends. People need to get over their trite little sterotypes and start to see the big picture. THINGS HAVE MOVED ON PEOPLE. Hell and even if people (me) want to read some of those unending soaps in just the same way that people, millions of um, literally millions of um in this country alone, do with other soap operas - so the chuff what!
That's not to say you don't have the perfect right to not like superheroes, you of course have the perfect right not to like superheroes, good luck to you and no hard feelings. Its just the same as not liking horror, or westerns, or kitchen sink drama, whatever. Its no more or less valid and the people who do like um no more or less intelligent.
People come to entertainment with different needs. SpaceGhost try doing a bit of research, as I have, to the needs that some readers of Mills and Boon bring to those books and why they chose to read them before standing in of so superior judgement of them. You might be surprised and that self important bubble burst a little...
... but that's quite enough ill thought out, poorly constructed stream of consciousness yelling from me.
I'm going home.
On the train.
With Clark, Lois and Lex fully on show and not a care in the world about that.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 04 February, 2014, 05:13:33 PM
I wipe mine out in public on a regular basis
Good thing I wasn't drinking tea when Colin dropped this particular typo into his post. My colleague would have been covered! :lol:
I agree there is no shame in reading whichever comics you like and there is definitely an elitism and snobbery around some.
Quote from: Recrewt on 04 February, 2014, 05:27:04 PM
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 04 February, 2014, 05:13:33 PM
I wipe mine out in public on a regular basis
Good thing I wasn't drinking tea when Colin dropped this particular typo into his post. My colleague would have been covered! :lol:
I agree there is no shame in reading whichever comics you like and there is definitely an elitism and snobbery around some.
For once that was intentional. I've 'wiped them out before.'
OK, my bad! :-[
Quote from: Recrewt on 04 February, 2014, 05:41:44 PM
OK, my bad! :-[
not really given my track record a typo was a fair bet!
With all due respect to you Colin, you haven't particularly answered any of my criticisms, you've just said "Well I like them so NER!" which, I suppose, is fair enough.
I think they're almost entirely shit, and I view them as the same sort of 'content' as a Westlife album, Fast and Furious 17, or Heat magazine.
The 'Comics Grow Up!' headlines you refer to from the 80's were inspired by Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns being big sellers and finding favour with various book types and magazine writers. Comics didn't really 'grow up' in any real way and the mainstream quickly fell back into it's boring ways.
Like many above, the only comics I'd read before 2000ad were DC Thomson kids humour titles, like The Beano and Oor Wullie, and Asterix and Tintin books from the library. I remember getting a UK Batman reprint when I was five or six, but it was crap compared to the TV show. One of the reasons I took to the work of Wagner, Grant, Mills, Morrison and Milligan when I made the jump to 2000ad was because they were so funny, as well as smart.
The US titles of that period all seemed to be issue number ones by Image writer/artists which were pretty hilarious, but not intentionally so. The Marvel and DC stuff was anachronistic and awful looking, so the only US books I picked up were those that Speakeasy told me were good, which tended to be stuff like Watchmen, Dark Knight, Love and Rockets, Hate, Sandman, Hellblazer, Eightball, and Calvin and Hobbes.
The only US comics I've picked up in the intervening years have been those written by writers I like, who don't generally seem to write superheroes, and the only cape books I've taken a gamble on were the Morrison/Quitely X-Men (meh) and Alan Moore's Wildcats and Top Ten (yay!). Comics are largely something for giving me a laugh; the only superhero stories I'm interested in are the same obviously good stuff that even people who aren't really interested in comics have read too.
I like superhero comics. Not many of the ones currently going it has to be said. But one day they will be good again, I have faith. It wasn't that long ago I was reading Dan Abnett write galaxy-spanning wars in both Marvel and DC. And I'd go back and read All Star Supes, even Man of Steel, so much of the old stuff. It's just the current wave of bland action that I wouldn't bother with.
I still read Spiderman and you know what? I enjoy it. It's not the 'ludicrousness of a guy who thinks tights is the best way to fight crime'. It's the fun of a guy who has amazing spider powers and saves people who need it - and has lots of weird interesting scifi/crime fun along the way. And I read Wonder Woman, which is doing great things with Greek Mythology, similar to how Thor writers have mined Norse mythology for some cracking reads.
Still enjoy Invincible too. Oh and Absolution was a good series though firmly in the 'kill everything' camp. And when Miracleman gets collected, I'll grab that.
I suppose the more I think about it, the less I am reading comics about 'fighting crime'. The superheroes in most of the things I read are not fighting muggers or anything that straightforward. Spidey is the only one I can really think of from the top of my head. The childish thing at the heart of superheroics is the hope that one person can save another, that a human being can be insulated from the dangers of doing the right thing by some kind of exceptionalism.
And Spaceghost I can see rebuttals to all of your criticisms in Colin's posts. Superhero comics are so prolific they literally contain every good point extolled by Colin and every bad point raised by you. There are others out there and less sneering ways of expressing your opinion are available too.
Another thing to consider is that a lot of what constitutes a superhero story is in the eye of the beholder, as 2000ad fans don't seem to have a problem with Nikolai Dante and his super-powered swords, or the constant stream of supervillains in those Hondo City stories in the Meg who fight a masked, gadget-equipped hero in a skintight costume (latterly accompanied by a powered kid sidekick), or MACH 1's super "hyper" powers that make him run at super hyper speed, give him super hyper strength, etc.
When I'm 'sneering' you'll know about it.
Quote from: Professor Bear on 04 February, 2014, 05:56:34 PM
Another thing to consider is that a lot of what constitutes a superhero story is in the eye of the beholder, as 2000ad fans don't seem to have a problem with Nikolai Dante and his super-powered swords, or the constant stream of supervillains in those Hondo City stories in the Meg who fight a masked, gadget-equipped hero in a skintight costume (latterly accompanied by a powered kid sidekick), or MACH 1's super "hyper" powers that make him run at super hyper speed, give him super hyper strength, etc.
As I said, I don't have a problem with fantasy elements or even super powers. Take your example, Nikolai Dante. It doesn't suffer from any of the things I mentioned.
The story has a beginning, a middle and a definite end, the character changes, grows and develops throughout. Characters form relationships, change and (usually) die. The super-swords are immaterial to my argument. If Dante went on and on, fighting the same bad guys over and over again whilst not aging or developing, THAT would be a valid comparison.
I recall there were stretches where it felt like it would never end.
There are some good posts here. Perdonnally I've no time whatsoever for super heroes, I'm not evangelical about this....live and let live. They fly in the face of why I read comics. I adore 2000ad as it has the concept of enthropy at its heart. The charachters I most identify with are mortal, subject to error of judgement and are victims of the consequences of this.
I am disconcerted when charachters such as Johnny Alpha are resseructed (I might agree he should never have been killed in the first place): but when you're dead; you're dead. Plus I've kind of a soft spot for the Final Solution irrespective of it's flaws. The part with Wulf on Smileys World brought a sadness to my heart, but it is a credit to the writer in that this false, perverted anti-resseruction showed the futility of wish fulfillment, what has gone cannot be regained. Z
Superhero comics just seemed to pass me by for the most part.
Pre-2000AD it was IPC's Monster Fun and Action, Tintin, Asterix.
I think I had one issue of Spiderman but was more aware of superheroes from tv shows than the comics themselves.
I've dipped into Marvel and DC occasionally, but it tends to be the self-contained stories, like The Dark Knight Returns, Red Son, or Old Man Logan.
Seems to be a touchy subject here my geek brothers & sisters- lest we forget, it's us vs THEM!
Seriously though, I have no problem with superhero comics.
I've read a lot of them over the past 32 years, ranging in quality from sublime to abysmal.
My point is thus; I like good comics by talented creators.
If they happen to be of the superhero variety, then so what?
My current pull list is quite eclectic- apart from our one shared love, I'm into sci-fi, horror, fantasy and yeah- superheroes.
A case in point; 'Superior Spider-Man'. I hadn't read Spidey regularly since my early / mid teens, but this take on the character (Dr. Octopus inside Peter's body) was fun, novel and very well executed.
It was an enjoyable 1+ year of superheroic fun, due to end when the status quo is re-established (just in time for the new movie of course), and at which point I'll jump off again.
I'd never limit myself with preconceptions regarding any comic genre; the right formula of writer / artist / concept will always attract my readership.
Quote from: ZenArcade on 04 February, 2014, 06:45:59 PM
I've kind of a soft spot for the Final Solution irrespective of it's flaws. The part with Wulf on Smileys World brought a sadness to my heart, but it is a credit to the writer in that this false, perverted anti-resseruction showed the futility of wish fulfillment, what has gone cannot be regained.
Great observation, and ditto with the love for
The Final Solution. I'm perfectly delighted for Wagner to keep providing Ezquerra with
Strontium Dog stories to illustrate, but the moment where Alpha met his maker has the same power and finality for me as the end of Supersurf 11. Everything else which has happened since reads like inconsequential footling in the margins. Good luck to all who've written, drawn and enjoyed what's followed, but Death doesn't grant mulligans.
The Dead Man is as close to a
Dredd Dead/Dredd resurrected! storyline as I ever want to read.
While I've always liked superheroes I wasn't really into the comics as a kid. I do remember swapping my Beano comics for my mates Spider-man stuff, and not really taking to it much. Mind you they tended to all be parts, rather than full stories.
(I'm not sure he ever bought a full story, or if he did maybe he gave them to me all jumbled up and I was too lazy to rearrange them all.)
I do remember reading a couple of Superman annuals and largely enjoying them though.
Then as a kid it was mainly Asterix (borrowed from the school library).
I've actually got more into comics as an adult. Mainly 2000 AD and the eg but I've caught up on some superhero collection stuff at the library. I also jumped on some titles when the new 52 started. It might say something that the three I continue with to this day aren't strictly superhero comics. Animal Man and Swamp thing (largely horror) and All Star Western... well what it says on the tin really with a bit of superhero stuff and lately horror too.
I also started collecting the Marvel Ultimate Graphic Novels collection.. and largely enjoyed it, although whether I continue to get them, I'm not sure. Including Spider-man. (As a kid I found him a bit annoying but I find him quirky and amusing now, although I'm not fussed to collect lots of the stuff.)
So yeah. Like Super-hero comics. Like non super-hero comics. The important thing is story. Is it any good? And there are examples of both in all genres, as others have said.
Yup, still a big fan of them. Some of the best talent on the books as that's where they still get the biggest, easiest bucks (whilst they all try to dip their toe in the creator owned market). Marvel really put out some cracking stuff, DC less so but there's some gems in the generic tat (Tom Taylor's Injustice, Synder's Batman, Palmiotti & Conner's funny Harley book to name a few).
For those that say they're too aimed at children I don't think you've read much from the big two in the last couple of years; that's one of my major problem with them is that there's nearly zero of these books that I can hand over to my son once I'm done with them. I think both companies are aware that very few kids can bang down $4 an issue week after week so the books are mostly aimed way over their heads with content to match. It comes to something when their flagship Spider-Man book is too violent for kids IMO.
Quote from: SpaceghostNo. It's because the manga I mention isn't held in thrall by the laws of the superhero comic. Batman can never end. The Joker can never repent. Alfred can never die. Bruce Wayne can never retire. It will all keep going on, and on in the same inconsequential manner, the characters learning nothing, never changing, never growing, never offering the reader anything but the most shallow and superficial illusion of story progression.
No, but they are held in the thrall of the laws of the Shonen comic. Popular shonen manga have their own rules and tropes that have been passed down since the days of Astro Boy. Its my experience that characters in Shonen manga almost never die or stay dead either! And if you want to see a serialized series that never ever ends, look no further then Shonen manga. With their 500/600/700+ episodes. About the only thing they manage to do better then Super-Hero comics is keep their creative teams intact and not reboot as often. But don't kid yourself popular shonen manga isn't above unnecessarily sequels, retellings, or media tie-in spin-offs.
Believe me, I understand. Manga is some what of a novelty to us outside of Japan, only a very select number of series actually get put in front of our eyeballs. And its new and different and exciting to read something that breaks our own molds. But your kidding yourself if you think Shonen manga like One-Piece, or Dragon Ball, or Naruto is guilty of all the same sins as North American Super-Hero comics. They're a commercial institution that rely on familiarity, not originality to sell units.
That doesn't make a series BAD however. It just means you shouldn't call one genre out for certain perceived flaws, and praise another for doing the same things.
Quote from: The Adventurer on 04 February, 2014, 09:01:34 PM
Quote from: SpaceghostNo. It's because the manga I mention isn't held in thrall by the laws of the superhero comic. Batman can never end. The Joker can never repent. Alfred can never die. Bruce Wayne can never retire. It will all keep going on, and on in the same inconsequential manner, the characters learning nothing, never changing, never growing, never offering the reader anything but the most shallow and superficial illusion of story progression.
No, but they are held in the thrall of the laws of the Shonen comic. Popular shonen manga have their own rules and tropes that have been passed down since the days of Astro Boy. Its my experience that characters in Shonen manga almost never die or stay dead either! And if you want to see a serialized series that never ever ends, look no further then Shonen manga. With their 500/600/700+ episodes. About the only thing they manage to do better then Super-Hero comics is keep their creative teams intact and not reboot as often. But don't kid yourself popular shonen manga isn't above unnecessarily sequels, retellings, or media tie-in spin-offs.
Believe me, I understand. Manga is some what of a novelty to us outside of Japan, only a very select number of series actually get put in front of our eyeballs. And its new and different and exciting to read something that breaks our own molds. But your kidding yourself if you think Shonen manga like One-Piece, or Dragon Ball, or Naruto is guilty of all the same sins as North American Super-Hero comics. They're a commercial institution that rely on familiarity, not originality to sell units.
That doesn't make a series BAD however. It just means you shouldn't call one genre out for certain perceived flaws, and praise another for doing the same things.
I personally dont get the meh Batman is never gonna end, never gonna die thing either. I don't know if you've been reading Dredd lately but we have an OAP flying through space with a bunch of people half his age, it's getting more absurd that Dredd aparently ages but refuses to show it, feel free to use to the get old "sci fi rejuvenation treatment" crutch but I don't find Peter Park never ageing past 30's any more off putting than an OAP shrugging off being knifed in the neck or dodging missles like he's just out of the academy. Dredd's never gonna end, what happens when he's into his 100's and still dodging bullets. Actually seeing as how some of the reviewers complain about the blink and miss it detail on ECBT2000AD I already know the answer ;D
Quote from: Spaceghost on 04 February, 2014, 05:44:22 PM
With all due respect to you Colin, you haven't particularly answered any of my criticisms, you've just said "Well I like them so NER!" which, I suppose, is fair enough.
To be honest I felt that there was little point getting into a ding dong with someone who by his own admission doesn't read many superhero comics and so whose assessment of them can't really go much further than 'Nah not to fussed about them.' Which would be, as I point out a very valid point if left there.
Hence I took up Dark Jimbo's point about commonly (well hopefully not so common anymore) held preconceptions about what comics involve stopping him reading in public. Again that is entirely his prerogative but I think its a shame. I did that in the style (well attempted) of an Internet forum rant to try to reflect the kinda silly comment you made about using that as a source of info about what superhero comics are like. Internet discussions are often not a reliable source, as I'm no doubt demonstrating! Hence at the end referring to 'Clark, Lois and Lex' to emphasize the silliness of making any of this seem personal and real.
Anyway I did take the opportunity try to refute a couple of the more simplistic and stereotypical statements you made, in your admitted ignorance. For example that superhero comics don't have beginning, middles and ends. That is clearly nonsense and lets hope we don't need to list examples as they are many and easy to find. Some superhero stories are open ended (mind read (or don't come to think of it) Grant Morrison's wonderful run on Batman which plays with this very idea), very few of them involve patrolling roof tops looking for crime anymore, though again I'll not shy away from admitting I enjoy some that do, daft though it is (as an adult I'm entirely capable of distilling this element into the fantasy you so readily accept elsewhere). I therefore also pointed out, using the different example of Mills and Boon, that people satisfy different needs from reading and you're 'superior' view of what should be read is from a very narrow perspective that shows no awareness of these different needs held by other people. I could go on more about this but I'd only serve to drag my meandering waffle out, suffice to say that type of elitist view of what qualifies as good reading is not only subjective and narrow minded but can also led to dangerous decisions being made about what should be made available to people to read and how people should be educated in what they read.
ANNNNYYYYWWWWWAAAYYYYYY
Sorry if you didn't feel I didn't pay you enough attention and I genuinely couldn't give two hoots if you don't like superhero comics. That's entirely fine and completely rational, most people who share this view have expressed that idea very nicely here. I don't like the little jazz I've made myself aware of. What I objected to is the condescending way that you talk about people that do, even from your admitted position of ignorance.
QuoteWhen I'm 'sneering' you'll know about it.
Oh cool is there an emoticon type thing you are going to use to tell us?
I'm nit speaking from a position of ignorance. I've read hundreds of superhero comics and I dare say I was doing so before you were born. That's why I feel like this about them.
I don't think I was being condescending, I certainly didn't intend to be. I was replying on a thread called 'I dont like superheroes anymore. Do you like superheroes?' so I don't think I was out of order. I wasn't specifically targeting you. I've already said that I should have shut up and not said whatever it was I said in my original comment.
Sorry to all the superhero fans I've upset. You keep buying this stupid shit and they'll keep churning it out!
Now I'm off to read my clever comics wot clever people like.
I haven't seen Colin so angry before! ;)
< Ah given the below forget this section :P >.
Superhero comics are long, magnificent stories in a shared universe. I treasure the enjoyable stuff and I edit out the things I didn't enjoy or that were (as can often happen) excreable in their most basic concept. Even at the current time of scarce eatings I would heartily recommend Animal Man's Rotworld arc and every last issue of Dial H for Hero.
It says very clearly under my avatar that I'm 'a bastard with no manners', it's not as if I've made a secret of it.
I'll admit that, as usual, I've 'gone off on one' and pissed someone off quite needlessly. It's nowt new. I'm famous for it at work. At least this wasn't a discussion about religion. I've had a few fucking scrapes from being unable to bite my tongue on THAT subject.
Sorry Colin. I'm sure there ARE decent superhero comics out there and I'll endeavour not to judge people based on their reading habits in future. (unless it IS Heat magazine, in which case they're an empty-headed fuckwit)
And they all agreed that 2000AD was the bestest comic there ever was, and lived happily ever after.
Quote from: Link Prime on 04 February, 2014, 10:16:07 PM
And they all agreed that 2000AD was the bestest comic there ever was, and lived happily ever after.
This nerd fight is
hilarious. Imagine if someone from the real world stumbled in here by mistake and saw this furious debate about whether body builder soap operas are more mature, cool and literary than comics by sexy Japanese robots with big eyes. This is bound to get a mention in a future
Damage Report.
I like comics about superheroes. My favourite is Judge Dredd.
Ha! Sauchie, I was just reading the prog and thought the very same thing.
Oh, the shame of it all.
@sauchie: Yeah, just like 'sugar teats' did the other week due to its discussion on the board a little while back.
Personally I love and loathe superhero comics in equal measure. There's no denying there are some real gems out there, for e.g, Ennis' run on The Punisher which is some of the best stuff Ennis has done in my opinion (although it could be argued that The Punisher is not a superhero in the traditional sense), Batman - Millers run is terrific fun as is his work on Daredevil. If I had to choose my favourite Superheroes it would be Batman, Daredevil and The Punisher (I love the vigilante characters!). But I cannot stand X-Men: I've read so many different series' over the years, whether Claremont's stuff, Whedon or Grant, and didn't enjoy any of it frankly (although Wolverine's solo stuff is a different matter). Not too keen on Spiderman or Superman either.
Recently I've found myself veering towards the more indie and non-Superhero stuff, there's 2000AD/ Megazine of course, but also works from Dark Horse (whose Hellboy and B.P.R.D series I absolutely love), Image (Prophet, Saga etc) and IDW. Not to mention Cinebook: I've been a big fan of European comics since childhood, and you could say my tastes are more tailored towards it than the American stuff.
I used to read quite a lot of Superhero stuff in the early '90s, I was a married man with one child. The comics were DC & Marvel. They were simple escapist fun and I enjoyed them. Please note I started reading comics very young... but 'seriously' in February 1977 with 2000AD when I was 9. That was also when I got in to Marvel, my brother read some DC and I'd read his. From sometime around 14 I slacked off everything except 2000AD & Dr Who Monthly (which isn't a comic anymore of course...) I would dabble now & then but somewhere in early '90s is when my reading of DC & Marvel peaked.
It isn't the simple escapist fun that stopped me reading so many. It was the Company wide reboots. I was used to them not aging - what with Batman, Superman, lots of superfolks being way older than me as a publication. That didn't bother me, it was the half cocked idea of doing a huge reset but then slowly saying 'oh that thing we kinda wrote out by doing that other thing, it happened really'.
But I dipped my toe in on a few of the Villains Week and I had fun. Now reading the Forever Evil mini & Forever Evil: Rogues Rebellion. They are fun but not as much as I recall from '90s. Also reading Mighty Avengers (but haven't reserved that yet, just pick it up).
I guess things have both changed and not changed. I read YA fiction to fill the Marvel & DC gap probably...
I'm enjoying several US & Canadian comics though that some would say are Superhero, though I wouldn't. Department Monsterology for example. Pretty Deadly for another. I enjoyed Kick Ass but not read Kick Ass 2 or Hit Girl yet.
I'll keep trying the odd Superhero one out now and then I guess. But I am kinda bummed that I liked Wally West so much and missed Barry but what they did with Barry made things 'real' and they went and brought Barry back & now no Wally and all that.... (I guess minor 'entitlement' issues on that one...)
When reading this thread title, the word anymore jumped out at me.
Superheroes used to be fun.
Criticizing them for being childish strikes me as a bit of a fallacy. I count many a "kids" movie/book in my all time favourites. I don't like slagging something off because it's for kids, because that presumes that kids are tasteless idiots. I like to think that when people discount something based on childishness, what they're really railing against is the pandering, patronizing elements of the work.
Why do I not like superheroes anymore? Let me count the ways
1) They're pandering and patronizing. Like I said above.
2) The pervasive idea that being "darker" and/or "grittier" is better. Creator's seem to strive for realism now, because fun is somehow beneath them
3) Continuity. Conti-fucking-nuity. Why can't they just make a comic about a science-ninja in a batsuit, fighting colourful gimmicky supervillains? It worked for Adam West. Instead, we have a grumpy fucker who lives in a world of superbeings. Don't get me started on Marvel, with all those superheroes living in and around the same in-universe New York, it's a wonder anyone is stupid enough to commit any sort of crime.
4!!!!!!)The Internet. Internet comic pundits are terible. Not quite as bad as the videogame crowd, but pretty damn awful. How often have we seen Racism, Feminism and all manor of Social issues trotted out in click baiting headlines? Any eejit can do that.
WHY DOES ALAN MOORE MAKE EVERYONE THINK ABOUT RAPE? (http://www.boohbah.tv/zone.html)
See?
Aye. Ranting and what?
Quote3)Don't get me started on Dreddworld, with all those Judges living in and around the same in-universe Mega City-One, it's a wonder anyone is stupid enough to commit any sort of crime.
FTFY
People getting pissed about community baffle me. How can you have a story without some kind of acknowledgment of past events?
I still somewhat like superheroes, though I do it on my own terms now, I tend to just read runs by specific writers and discount those from writers I don't like.
So as far as I'm concerned Norman Osborn & Jason Todd are still dead :D
Peter Parker is happily married and gave up being Spider-Man some time during the early 90s. Dan Slott's stories are about an "alternate version" of Peter Parker who has a different story that is wholly separate from the original.
I don't think I could ever read "Essentials" volumes any more, I just read singular stories.
Whilst the Marvel/DC comics don't really ever have an end, and nothing ever happens to change the status quo, if you just read a singular story as an island in itself then it often does have all of those. Reading J.M Dematteis' Harry Osborn story gives you a beginning, and an end, and big stuff happens along the way.
Manga I also like, but I disagree about it being more original than US superhero comics. Manga is painfully unoriginal most of the time, I don't remember the last time I sat down to watch an Anime or read a Manga when I didn't spend the whole time thinking of it as a mix and match or other Manga's.
Of course there is stuff like Berserk & Akira which break the mold and are very interesting to read, but US superhero comics have just as many, if not more exceptions which break the rules.
Quote from: sauchie on 04 February, 2014, 10:21:16 PM
This nerd fight is hilarious. Imagine if someone from the real world stumbled in here by mistake and saw this furious debate about whether body builder soap operas are more mature, cool and literary than comics by sexy Japanese robots with big eyes. This is bound to get a mention in a future Damage Report.
And there we have it.
It was bound to happen.
This is why I didn't want to be the 'superhero' guy as the points I was making would be simplified to this kinda dismissive statement that reduces everything I said to 'Superman could beat Godzilla'. Can I make something quite clear again (I've tried to do it in every post).
I don't care if people don't like superheroes - I actually fully understand why they might not.
What I do care about (more than is sensible it would seem) is people judging others negatively based on what forms of entertainment they go for and people still feeling judged for reading comics.
There said and done.
Oh, be nice.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 05 February, 2014, 06:35:26 AM
What I do care about (more than is sensible it would seem) is people judging others negatively based on what forms of entertainment they go for and people still feeling judged for reading comics.
For which I have now apologised and repented. I will try my very best to practice tolerance and understanding in future.
Give us a cuddle and let's forget all about it.
2000AD was my first love, it'll be my last!
Can't say I've ever really been a fan of the spandex brigade, aside from post modernist stuff like Zenith and to some degree Watchmen.
I enjoyed the early Ultimates stuff, but the rest leaves me cold to be honest.
None of my U.S comic subscriptions are superhero comics, as the genre just doesn't interest me and I can't see that changing any time soon.
The whole utopian ideals and rather black and white moralising of superhero comics just doesn't resonate with me. Probably because I'm such a cynical git! :lol:
Quote from: The Adventurer on 05 February, 2014, 03:04:22 AM
Quote3)Don't get me started on Dreddworld, with all those Judges living in and around the same in-universe Mega City-One, it's a wonder anyone is stupid enough to commit any sort of crime.
FTFY
People getting pissed about community baffle me. How can you have a story without some kind of acknowledgment of past events?
Tom and Jerry manage it. As do Laurel and Hardy, Ren and Stimpy, Scooby Doo etc, etc.
There's no reason you can't do self contained stories about Batman and Robin fighting crime.
Quote from: sauchie on 05 February, 2014, 07:33:34 AM
Oh, be nice.
Nah I've been treating myself today and yesterday to not trying to act here as I do in normal life and act more like many people do on the internet (not being specific to anyone here just generally) and having the false courage of anonymity and distance to mean you (general not specific again) act more aggressive and forceful than normal and argue points past the point you should.
Have to say its been very fun and liberating and I might do it again sometime.
QuoteFor which I have now apologised and repented. I will try my very best to practice tolerance and understanding in future.
Give us a cuddle and let's forget all about it.
Promise the last one wasn't about you (per-say) it was just summarising my stand in the face of it being misconstrued, as things so often are on this here internet, to allow people to make self aggrandising points.
All that said I've in a very chipper mood today and all that grumpy, ranting, over passionate and probably ill in formed internet courage fuelled blather seems to have been very cathartic. Mind I'm sorry for dragging things out so long, so needlessly and being such a grumpy puss (however deliberately).
I love this place I does and all you folk that make it what it is with a love that only the internet can make.
Getting things back on topic.
I love me superheroes I does, even when they are being silly and daft almost without equal in the world of fiction.
Hugs
Well I got into comics pretty late (I wasn't interested in non moving pictures when I was a kid, it had to be a cartoon or nothing) however I got an appreciation of 2000AD in my late teens and started collecting it. Then I followed a couple of writers over into that Vertigo line, then I started to check out some of their main stream DC and Marvel stuff and then general superhero stuff not written by them, that was it the crack that is collecting had got me and I now have box's of useless boring immature shit that im never going to read again (unlike my 2000AD's which get a re-read every few years). HOw ever I haven't let that put me off Supes comics completely I'm just way more selective with what I purchase now and believe me among the genre there have been some of the best comics from the last 10 years, yes most of the big two's stuff is stuck in a never ending never changing cycle but as mentioned earlier in the thread you can still tell a good rollicking story even if someone comes in and re-sets it at the end it doesn't change the story told (I suppose except when they go back and ret-con stuff that actually does change the story :lol:).
So yes I still like Super Hero comics I'm just much more picky on what I pick up now.
Oh and anyone who thinks all supes comics are the same and never change and are just for kids has never read an issue of Invincible, do your self a favour and change that you just might have some fun.
CU Radbacker
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 05 February, 2014, 09:34:50 AM
Nah I've been treating myself today and yesterday to not trying to act here as I do in normal life and act more like many people do on the internet (not being specific to anyone here just generally) and having the false courage of anonymity and distance to mean you (general not specific again) act more aggressive and forceful than normal and argue points past the point you should.
You're lucky. I AM like this even when I'm NOT on the internet. It's got me into trouble a few times (culminating in narrowly avoided disciplinary proceedings at work).
I need to learn to let things go, temper my comments and self edit to avoid offending people I suppose but I fucking LOVE a good argument.
I grew up on the IPC/Fleetway comics so my tastes run more to the humorous and adventurous. I never got into DC or Marvel. I'd much rather read Sweeny Toddler, Calvin & Hobbes or a Donald Duck story by Carl Barks than, say, Spiderman.
Of course, I now know from reading this thread that the problem with comics like Sweeny Toddler and Donald Duck is that no one advances, everyone remains the same. Sweeny still lives with his dopey mum and dad at the end of the strip, Henry the dog still dreams of bones, etc! What was I thinking? ; D
Apart from the 2000AD trades, I've also enjoyed reading the Grandville series and "Mezolith" (a DFC Library title) and hope there will be more of these.
Not wishing to jump into the argument (however polite it is now becoming....)
When i was a kid (i'm now 40), any comics were fair game but mainly it was whizzer & chips, Beano & Dandy. I discovered 2000AD when I started to get a bit older (think mid-200's was my introduction to Dredd & Co) with some Spiderman and Hulk thrown into the mix.
As a teenager I discovered the comic book shop and increased my reading to some Batman and other DC titles, Marvel didnt appeal for some reason and this continued for a number of years, waning when I had less money as a student (even the Meg was dropped at one point) and increasing again when I started working to include Preacher and other vertigo titles, Batman (again), 100 bullets and the odd spandex crusader.
In the last 5-6 years though I did dump any monthly title as graphic novels collections were now being released for nearly every title (sooooo different from 20 years ago!) to help combat the amount of space my collection was starting to consume, I also dumped loads of back issues mainly my super hero stuff and anything I had in graphic novel format. So rather than get the monthlies I switched to some hero GN's instead.
I did remain loyal in all this time to 2000AD, its had its up and downs but remains the best read and much better than the US monthlies (super hero or not), I just prefer short burts of reading throughout the year as opposed to the monthly wait where a convulted back story had me either re-reading stuff all the time or issues just collecting dust until the story arc was over. This is one of the main reasons I dumped most of my monthly super hero reading, the others being the oft mentioned immortality of some heroes through no fear of death via resurrection (and this is probably why I dont enjoy Strontium Dog as much as I used to, Alan Grant I wish you had stuck to your guns in the same way you were so happy to announce at UKCAC'90 that you were going to kill off Johnny Alpha in front of a packed and shocked audience).
Much has been said of the superhero movies, I enjoy them but think they are completely different to what I used to read but using the same characters its fun to see how they are adapted. Much like Dredd the film, it worked so well and I really enjoyed it but it wasnt quite the same as the weekly Dredd though I didnt see anything wrong with that, it was still great to see him on the big screen.
I do fall into the camp that most superhero stuff nowadays is a bit dull, galaxy spanning stroies just bore me with their 'Nothing will be the same again!' (but nothing will really change......) taglines but there is stuff which re-affirms my belief in comics on a regular basis, Punisher by Garth Ennis and then Jason Aaron, DMZ, BPRD and the Ultimates.
Would I go back to buying monthlies and following Batman for example on a regular basis? No.
Do I carry on reading 2000AD? Yes
Mind you though, tastes change as we get older and YOU CAN READ WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT TO folks!
Quote from: Spaceghost on 04 February, 2014, 10:03:44 PM
It says very clearly under my avatar that I'm 'a bastard with no manners', it's not as if I've made a secret of it.
I'll admit that, as usual, I've 'gone off on one' and pissed someone off quite needlessly. It's nowt new. I'm famous for it at work. At least this wasn't a discussion about religion. I've had a few fucking scrapes from being unable to bite my tongue on THAT subject.
I may be doing life wrong but I don't think I'd be making these sort of statements in away that may seem as if I was proud of them.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 05 February, 2014, 12:55:14 PM
Quote from: Spaceghost on 04 February, 2014, 10:03:44 PM
It says very clearly under my avatar that I'm 'a bastard with no manners', it's not as if I've made a secret of it.
I'll admit that, as usual, I've 'gone off on one' and pissed someone off quite needlessly. It's nowt new. I'm famous for it at work. At least this wasn't a discussion about religion. I've had a few fucking scrapes from being unable to bite my tongue on THAT subject.
I may be doing life wrong but I don't think I'd be making these sort of statements in away that may seem as if I was proud of them.
I'm not proud of anything, I'm just honest. Plus, see my last comment where I lament my gob-shiteyness.
PS. Get fucked.*
*(get it?)
Thanks guys-I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all this and the vigorous debate contained therein.
Quote from: Spaceghost on 05 February, 2014, 01:37:17 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 05 February, 2014, 12:55:14 PM
Quote from: Spaceghost on 04 February, 2014, 10:03:44 PM
It says very clearly under my avatar that I'm 'a bastard with no manners', it's not as if I've made a secret of it.
I'll admit that, as usual, I've 'gone off on one' and pissed someone off quite needlessly. It's nowt new. I'm famous for it at work. At least this wasn't a discussion about religion. I've had a few fucking scrapes from being unable to bite my tongue on THAT subject.
I may be doing life wrong but I don't think I'd be making these sort of statements in away that may seem as if I was proud of them.
I'm not proud of anything, I'm just honest. Plus, see my last comment where I lament my gob-shiteyness.
PS. Get fucked.*
*(get it?)
Charmed, I'm sure.
I CAN like super hero stories. It's just another genre at the end of the day, specifically a sub-genre of science fiction and fantasy. What baffles me is the over saturation on the genre in the medium. Marvel and DC naturally, though I only currently read the one title from either, Revolutionary War. Though I am working my way through trades of Saga of Swamp Thing (hoping to move onto the Vaughn run as well), Hellblazer, Shade, and Captain Britain.
As for manga, I do feel the current trend of shonen popular in the west are fairly samey. Hell, One Piece and Fairy Tail or almost separated from birth! At least One-Punch Man, All You Need is Kill and Attack on Titan are original and are enjoying great success. Bodes well.
Hmmm, superheroes... not really my thing. While a few of the classic runs of the last 30 years stand out (Miracleman, DKR, Watchmen, Animal Man), generally speaking whenever I try to follow a superhero series, even by good writers, I get bored very fast. Give me Tharg's morally questionable anti-heroes any day.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 05 February, 2014, 09:02:06 PM
Quote from: Spaceghost on 05 February, 2014, 01:37:17 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 05 February, 2014, 12:55:14 PM
Quote from: Spaceghost on 04 February, 2014, 10:03:44 PM
It says very clearly under my avatar that I'm 'a bastard with no manners', it's not as if I've made a secret of it.
I'll admit that, as usual, I've 'gone off on one' and pissed someone off quite needlessly. It's nowt new. I'm famous for it at work. At least this wasn't a discussion about religion. I've had a few fucking scrapes from being unable to bite my tongue on THAT subject.
I may be doing life wrong but I don't think I'd be making these sort of statements in away that may seem as if I was proud of them.
I'm not proud of anything, I'm just honest. Plus, see my last comment where I lament my gob-shiteyness.
PS. Get fucked.*
*(get it?)
Charmed, I'm sure.
You do realise it was a joke, yes? As was the comment about my 'motto' being ''a bastard with no manners''. That's a quote from A Clockwork Orange. I'm nice really.
I've been racking my brains trying to think of superhero stories I've enjoyed in recent times. I LOVED Marvel comics from the age of about 7 and lost interest in them when I was 16 or so.
I suppose as far as superhero comics I've enjoyed since then go, there's Ex Machina by Brian K Vaughan which is about what happens when a superhero realises that costumed crime fighting isn't a viable way of affecting social change, so he quits, goes into politics and is elected Mayor of New York. It's intelligent and well thought out with a unique mix of realistic political intrigue and sci-fi shenanegans.
Also loved Tom Strong and Supreme by Alan Moore but that's because they're both kind of love letters to the kind of superhero stories I loved as a kid.
Really liked Top Ten by Moore too if that counts as a superhero title. I suppose I like the superhero comics that subvert superhero comics and 'pull back the curtain' to show how they work if that makes sense.
Wish this had been my first post, could have avoided looking like a bit of a prick. :-[
so what about My Little Pony Friendship is Magic as superheroes?
Quote from: Hawkmonger on 05 February, 2014, 11:07:29 PM
Though I am working my way through trades of Saga of Swamp Thing (hoping to move onto the Vaughn run as well), Hellblazer, Shade, and Captain Britain.
Mixing John Constantine and superheroes only works in the weird worlds of Vertigo. His current incarnation in the main DCU makes for terrible reading. He can't even swear
Quote from: Spaceghost on 06 February, 2014, 08:33:54 AM
I suppose as far as superhero comics I've enjoyed since then go, there's Ex Machina by Brian K Vaughan which is about what happens when a superhero realises that costumed crime fighting isn't a viable way of affecting social change, so he quits, goes into politics and is elected Mayor of New York. It's intelligent and well thought out with a unique mix of realistic political intrigue and sci-fi shenanegans.
Funnily enough the new trade versions of Ex Machina are on my to buy list as it first came out during my wilderness years from comics but having read about it it sounds like a damned interesting concept by some decent creators. Its really good therefore to hear it recommended by someone who doesn't get on with superheroes generally as its that different take on the genre that appeals - I'll be buying that toot sweet then.
yes yes but what shelf will it go on? ;)
My shelves are considerably clearer or at least will be as over 2000 of my spandex comics head towards Belfast's Forbidden Planet in the near future. That's really what prompted this thread-as I counted and filed them for dispatch I felt no emotional attachment to them whatsoever and I was passionate about them only a few years ago.
Big credit note=thrill power maximisation.
It depends what you classify a 'superhero'. Is Batman 'super'? He has above average intelligence and athletic prowess, combined with a multi-million dollar cave with accessories. He doesn't have laser-beam eyes though.
I've read some Batman and enjoyed it, but I wouldn't say he's a 'superhero'.
I've never really enjoyed Superman, X-Men, Fantastic Four, or anything where people are basically indestructible 'cos of being able to get out of situations by means of fire, water, ice, ginormous strength, climbing walls, being stretchy etc etc.
'Watchmen' is an interesting one. Are they superheroes? Nah, they're a bunch of masked vigilates like Batman. What about Doc Manhattan though? He's got super powers, but is he a hero or a victim of time/fate/circumstance? There wasn't anything heroic about turning the Vietnamese inside out...
I really enjoyed Watchmen, but wouldn't class it as being about superheroes, more about human frailty really. That's where I really get enjoyment from comics - taking a human being and placing them in situations of adversity, then watching how they survive it (or not).
So I'm not really keen on the Superhero comics. I can't relate to them much. I'll read them at a push, but I much prefer comics on standard human beings, even if they are incredibly rich and highly trained.
I suppose I actually like Superhero comics MORE now than when I was a child.
Growing up, I was aware of the pop culture impact of superheroes (TV shows, trading cards, plastic toys) but never really read Superhero comics (it was all British Boys comics for me - especially war comics).
It wasn't until I was older (late teens) that I started picking up Superhero books; sometimes because of the hype attached (Dark Knight Returns) and sometimes because I was following a 2000ad alumni into the world of DC and Marvel. I then started picking up the odd back issue or borrowing from friends. Even then, I mostly preferred my Warriors, Deadlines and 2000ad to Marvel and DC output.
I've never got into buying DC or Marvel monthly titles on an ongoing basis though.
Again, it's just trades (I started following Batman for a while through the trades of Knightfall and the Gotham earthquake one that I can never remember the name of) of "important" events especially if they involve 2000ad born talent.
So yeah, I definitely read more Superhero stuff now than as a child (many years ago). I appreciate that to my mind, most of the Superhero output isn't worth bothering about. But I get the feeling that the odd gem that you do get COULDN'T EXIST without the groudswell of support for the genre generated by the "less worthy" titles.
(Similarly, I feel the same about Fast & Furious movies. I have no intention of watching every cheap car based action flick but the F&F movies seem to be the pick of the bunch but only viable because the other movies have created a market. This is probably all skewed thinking).
Spaceghost - No worries.
Give Torque a gander - it's about bikes rather than cars, but is just as ludicrous and enjoyably silly as F&F, and it ends with what I can only describe as a series of superhero fights.