2000 AD Online Forum

i have in the last three months. got a dredd badge. a lawgiver mk1.some great t shirts.
from non licensed i take it? suppliers.why doesnt the future shop sell this kind of merchandise.

what else is  out there, which could be avaible to us officailly.
anyone else mangaed to get some things they are pretty pleased with.

in case anyone is interested.
it looks like ron smith the stupid gun. i have already got soem ron smith orignal art. as such im not going to bid again. but at his current price it may be interesting to a some of us.
aarrggh tends to be a little high on his prices these days for ron smith.

Link: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ca

Given that forbidden planet is about 70% merchandice these days, Im surprised that tooth hasnt jumped on this bandwagon in a much bigger way. The only things I have seen are the dredd/death sculptures (apart from the figures a while back).

I want GOOD t-shirts! And in the sodding shops too!.

ask nicely and i will offer a link ;~)

 david is his name. he has a total of 6 designs in X and XL

villashack@btopenworld.com

he has all designs in basic windows format. for easy to download viewing.
they are very good and cheap as well.

Hmmm... unless you are ripping off Disney I can't say I entirely approve.  

Also of course...

1. There's no quality control
2. A license probably isn't that hard or expensive to get, you aren't dealing with 100 billion losing OmniCorp here.  
3. None of the money goes back to Rebellion
4. Nothing goes back to creators in the form of royalties

but when memebers of this site asked about licensing, not a word was replied.

supply and demand.sad but true. whilst i agree.with the principle the fact is that merchandise is very very limited.
im happy with my buys in recent months.
as soon as rebellion get it on im a buyer in the mean time. i buy from the suppliers.

i do support rebellion though. i buy offcail stuff as well.i only buy they dont have.dredd badge.law giver,decent t shirts at a reasonable price. i paid a fiver for each one. whats the future shop price for a boring one?

Try buying ANY officially licensed t-shirt for a fiver.  It just can't be done.  The reason is that the person selling them...

1.  Not paying the owner of the intellectual property money to use the images.  i.e. he's stealing them. Money that in theory could go back into 2000AD.

2.  Not paying for advertising, promotion, packaging or distribution.

3.  Probably not paying tax.

4.  Producing them all from a lock up himself, so he doesn't have to pay anyone else.

5.  Possibly not using quality componants or methods.

6.  Not offering any form guarentee.

If people want to license 2000AD and Judge Dredd images, then surely all they have to do is contact Rebellion and make the appropriate arrangements?  

As I'm not an employee of Rebellion, it's not really my problem.  Nor am I really having a go at you for buying it, but we both know it's not right, even if it is a bargain and good quality.

The only dubious thing I've bought was a resin Judge Death Badge in Forbidden Planet some time ago so I assumed it MUST (surely) have been licensed.  It was obviously the product of some cottage industry, but it looked good.

i agree with you on your principal there PVS.

perhaps i have been out here to long. the land of piracy. i have become immune to it.
everything out here from a F1 t-shirt to a set of golf clubs can be bought in counterfit and real standards.so for me purchasing an item which has no orignal version is not something i even consider as a decsion.

the points you raise are valid and fair.
my gross is more rebelloins lack of focus on this area.rather then anything else really. i would if they offered buy from them.

but since they dont and i wish to collect this type of thing, i have no alternative. and to be honest its not cost which is my first consideration.its more choice.
i felt there t-shirt where boring.so much great art work and what do we get a ? hardly a must have summer item was it.

every  other comic seems to have decent valid licensed merchandise line.why not us?

Well I was just puting the argument forward, in many ways I am entirely hypocritical of couse ;)

Although technically all unofficial merchandise is a breach of copyright, in reality it depends on exactly what the merchandise is, how much profit the seller is making, how many items are being sold, and whether there is similar official merchandise available.

For example (and I'm not talking specifically about 2000AD here), prop casts seem to be okay, since each once actually takes a fair amount of skill and effort to produce, so the numbers and profit margins are usually fairly small. At the other extreme, CD-ROMs are a complete no-no since once you have a master, copies can be made at virtually no cost or effort.

Wake

So, basically, it's okay to help yourself to someone else's property if you put some quality time and effort into your thieving, and if you're not really going to make much money from it?

"But, your honour, it took me ages to bypass that burglar alarm.  And do you know how skillful an art proper safe-cracking really is?  And, besides, there wasn't much loot in the thing anyway..."

;->

I have contacted Rebellion about this very thing.. producing quality T-shirts in particular.

STILL NO REPLY.

I just need to know what is involved in getting permission to produce licensed products.

Is there a one off fee?

Do Rebellion expect a certain percentage of the sale price?

Do Rebellion expect a fixed rate per item sold?

Rebellion would of course have a final say on the quality of the merchandise - I wouldn't be producing any old shit with Judge Dredds name on it (although that seems to be exactly what is on offer in the line of T-Shirts from the Future Shop!!).

If I were to produce just one t-Shirt it would be this (you should see an image here, if I've got the link right!!!).

A bold, one colour design (inexpensive to produce)by the best Dredd artist about today.

So, come on Rebellion:
What do I have to do to produce the shirt!!!

Hands up who would buy this shirt. I'll put a guestimate price of ?11.99 + P&P of say ?1.00.

Umpty puts hand up!

I have a lot more of these and I'll post them on the board when I have the time.

Link: ximoc

Would any of the artists have any say on official products, creator owned characters of course though (whichever ones they are!)

An awful lot of all the Dredd stuff that is around t-shirts, figures etc are ones from the past, from 1994 especially. We are living off the detritius of past merchandising pushes, mainly from Ebay (some good stuff nonetheless though)

I've bought things from the FutureShop before and now I'm just waiting for the next things.

Umpty has exactly the right idea. Proper big image t-shirts are what we need.
Promotes the brand as well as looking good!

id buy the jok dredd tshirt

uncle umpty knows i am on his list for merchandise.confirmed order.now that JOCK T. lets be honest. its the frankie says of this summer for all tooth fans.
serious here uncle umpty. i am a customer confirmed.one in small and one in XL.as soon as you get permission.

what about
 sheddcon and we didnt think it 2 many. its got to be on the cards surely.?

I think there's a significant difference between someone selling resin Rogue Trooper kits based on a home-sculpted original and someone else scanning artwork from a prog (e.g the Gaze into the Fist of Dredd image) and then getting it printed onto 100 t-shirts.

Wake

not that i would be interested in that type of thing, but do you have an address of that naughty vendor with the t-shhirts.
i shall email my disapointment and credit card details to him right away.
;~)

>>I think there's a significant difference between someone selling resin Rogue Trooper kits based on a home-sculpted original and someone else scanning artwork from a prog (e.g the Gaze into the Fist of Dredd image) and then getting it printed onto 100 t-shirts.

Rather than picking examples at both extremes of the scale, at what exact point does copyright theft cease being okay and start becoming objectionable?

Stealing ?10 is okay, but stealing ?1000 is bang out of order.  At what point between those extremes does theft become theft to you?

Apparently you can produce 10 of something without infringing copyright..

I met a guy at Dreddcon who used to sculpt for Reaction figures... he was never happy with the Dredd that was produced and starts work on a 10" figure based on my Dreddcon:3 image (me chuffed!!)  But because it'll be an *extremely* limited run there's no copyright problem...

So there you go. I'm not sure legally why this is....

Jock

P.S- that Rogue figure's a bit ropers isn't it?

J

uncle umpty!!!!
you have 9 of htose t shirts left.perhaps you offer one FOC.to jock.so 8 left now.

Here are a few examples of my personal opinion of what crosses, or doesn't cross that boundary. I'm sure other people have different boundaries, and I'm not even convinced mine is set in stone.
_____________

Anything made just for yourself - okay

Resin casts of movie props or fan models - Okay
Resin casts of commercial models - Bad

Original artwork of 2000AD characters by non-2000AD artists - Okay
Artwork prints - Bad

Making something (e.g. t-shirts, clocks, mugs) for yourself and one or 2 friends - Okay
More than about 5 copies - Bad

Getting stuff signed for free with the sole intention of reselling at a profit - Objectionable but technically okay

Software - bad
Photocopies of printed stories/artwork - bad

Can you think of anything else which should be included above?

Wake

Yes, I wouldn't actually want to buy that Rogue figure, but it makes a good extreme example.

Wake

decent t shirts. as there are non currently avaible = good.as long as its only a limited run.i get one.

dredd badge.,as rebellion dont seem to be able to make a bigger verison of the key ring = good

but to sum up. all would be bad if rebellion actaully managed to get a decent range of quality merchandise aviable for us to purchase.
the comic shops are filled with stuff for other characters no matter how obscure. why not tooth ones.
its all down to rebellion in the end.

>P.S- that Rogue figure's a bit ropers isn't it?


It's well shonky.

Never mind breach of copyright - breach of good taste and craftmanship, surely?

Okay, here we go. It's a bit of a minefield, but this is the gist.

The law says it's not acceptable (as a civil matter, ie lawsuit, not a criminal one, ie banged up) to use someone else's intellectual property without their permission.

It's designed to avoid sub-standard versions of someone else's (in theory) quality product devalueing their property, or being confused with the real thing.

Whether you make money or not is irrelevant. It's not about your profits; it's about their loss.

On a practical level, however, "going to law" costs so much that unless someone is really milking things there's no point in chasing them. Usually a lawyer's letter sent in warning will be the start and end of any action.

Added to that is the "homage" factor prevalent in comics, films, etc. Fan fiction, small items for sale and so on all promote the product itself so it might be successfully argued that the other person is gaining and not losing as a result of your actions.

It would also be pretty shitty to chase a fan who's just showing his love for what you do.

Hope that's helpful.

- Trout, who was nearly a lawyer but couldn't stay awake long enough

do you think we should email this thread  to pat mills?

My take on this subject would be:

Making money by exploiting the creativity and time of another person, without first obtaining permission in the correct fashion, is shit.  No excuses.  No exceptions.

You might well point at Fanzines like CO'79, Zarjaz, etc, but those that are allowed to develop and evolve without any acrimonious relationship with their 'parent' company have generally sought and received the nod.  If Rebellion were adamant that they didn't want fans creating their own stories based on their characters, we'd all be livid if Mr Lewis* or Mr Logan* turned-up behind a convention-table asking for ?2-a-pop.  They wouldn't be doing it for profit because there *isn't* any in small-press, but we'd all be furious nonetheless.  How is that any different from Mr. X producing resin-statue Y and flogging it for limited monetary gain?  It's still a ripoff.

Beyond the bare-faced-thieving-cheek of it all, there's also the element of quality.  Wake's shining example of an allowable infraction of copyright law is, sorry, shite.  That Rogue figure's legs are all wonky, it's all out-of-proportion.  It may be a tiny effect, but if the guy who made that goes out and sells a few he's dragging-down the perception of the quality of one of Rebellion's top characters.  Good quality - and, by association, licensed - merchandise should advertise itself, not create an impression of shoddy worksmanship and general rubbishness.

Sorry.  I'd love one of those Dredd T-shirts too, but only if Reb gave it the nod or if I made it myself and never ever wore it out in public.

Incidentally - I hate to be a hard arse about this, but the argument "I asked Rebellion if they minded but they never got back to me, so I'm going to do it anyway and it's their fault if they don't like it.." is a bit lame.

Long story short: Just because 2000AD doesn't have a ravenous pack of vulture-like lawyers waiting, Disney-stylee, to pounce on any opportunistic pirate, doesn't mean they're ripe for exploitation.







* Fortunately both chaps are semi-officially endorsed, and a jolly good job they do too.

Straying away from 2000AD, but more into the realms of people making real money from unofficial merchandise....

How come you can buy stuff like unauthorised X-Files episode guides, or unofficial pop-star biographies, etc. Surely this kind of thing is too big to go unnoticed, and yet they get into book shops no problem.

Just search Amazon.co.uk for unofficial and unauthorised

Wake

Wake said:

"How come you can buy stuff like unauthorised X-Files episode guides, or unofficial pop-star biographies, etc. Surely this kind of thing is too big to go unnoticed, and yet they get into book shops no problem."


These are different things entirely, wake, and not really pertinent to the argument.

Epiode guides etc count as critical commentary, and are perfectly legal, as long as they don't reproduce images, full scripts etc without permission.  (You'll notice that few of these invariably cheapo things carry pictures etc of the movie/TV series they're commenting on.)

Biographies come into the same bracket.  You can't copyright reality, and people are free to write about you if you want.  You and your work and the details of your life exist, and so people are free to comment on them and tell other people about them all they want.

Your point is kind of like saying, well, how come newspapers and magazines can do features on Tatu or review what was on TV last night?

What we're talking about here is intellectual property - the rights to something which you haven't created and which you don't own - and, I have to say, I agree with just about everything El Spurrio said on the subject.

i dont think so.
i have seen plenty of star trek stuff labeled as unoffical.in many comic shops in the west.t shirts, toby style mugs,games, chess sets and so on.spoof paper backs.plates and so on.
its a grey thing it seems.

though i see it from both sides.but if the creators where to push rebellion a bit.there would be potentail revenue for them.and well deserved too.
there is a market for it.a big one.and as stated,a marketing angle.quality can equal awareness,
the fact FP is now 75% merchandise says it all really.
i would suggest if we emailed rebellion and asked. they may actaully wake up and get it moving. how hard can it be to get a licensing contract organized.

i want officail merchandise.
i want to be able to walk into a shop and buy it. i want it to be a good quality.
i want all concerned to be rewarded in the correct manner.

come on rebellion, lets get it together,i want to collect and enjoy.

I did point all that out at the start it should be said.  It's definitely wrong, but then is copying an album, lots of people do that, it's still wrong and it's still illegal and I bet there isn't anyone here who hasn't done it.  Yes, you've stolen ?15 that goes towards retailers, disributers, publishers and artists royalties, how do you feel now?  You probably aren't bothered much, which is pretty much how it goes for this sort of thing (rightly or wrongly).  So saying it's wrong isn't enough to persuade people not to do it, they know it's wrong.

I suspect the problem of 2000AD unnofficial merchandise doesn't exist on a large scale (of course that doesn't mean it's not serious, blah, blah etc.), but regardless of rights and wrongs (and yes, it is wrong to produce unofficial merchandise) it does show there probably is a market for decent quality, reasonably priced merchandise out there, and one that could be catered for directly throught Rebellion, their licencees or people with micro-licenses (to produce kits, models,etc.).

For instance, doesn't it bother you that John Wagner gets nothing from your knock-off Dredd clock?  It would me.  

It would bother me even more if someone was making money by selling Crab Man action figures, based on a best selling series of Crab Man books I'd written (which I haven't, I'm going to get them ghost written).

I'm sure if Rebellion considered it a problem they could do a lot through easy and accesable licensing (from large companies to cottage industry) to prevent it.  The other options are to ignore it and the indescriminate use of lawyers, both of which could cost them money.

I don't think it is that grey DD I reckon paramount pictures probably spends a lot of time and money guarding their intellectual property.  there are however things you can do.

As gordon said you can write a book about something, an episode guide, a history or whatever.  You can produce spoofs, usually claiming it's a parody, though I suspect the laws in countries difffer over this.  You can produce images of actors on merchandise, because the studios don't own them.

You'll also note that all the unofficial books don't use the actual logo of the programme (usually some crappy poor mans version) they are using, simply because they can't, it's not theirs.

Every chess set, boardgame, mug and plate I've ever seen for sale has been licensed, but then that's here and it doesn't mean they don't exist.

i just hope the game goes through the roof.this would have many companies knocking on their door.and hopefully create the aviability many us hanker for.

but many things that rebellion are involved in are already licensed.or they are license holders.so whats so difficult for them.

they have not even got back to uncle umpty.how long does an email of sorry not at this time take to draft.?

we need to be aware that the readership is not growing, signifcantly as such any income source tooth based is a great one.
so why are they so damn slow on this.