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Spoilers => Prog => : Proudhuff 10 August, 2019, 02:36:03 PM

: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Proudhuff 10 August, 2019, 02:36:03 PM
A great selection of classic 2K stories and art, in a cover that will annoy parents everywhere.

Damage Report: Cyber-Matt finally gets Windows, or did I miss something?
Droid Life returns

Dredd: wow! And I thought those boots were Dredd’s! I know this is in the spoilers section, but I hope no-one reveals that last page, did not either of those two things to happen :o well done the Williams/Weston droids, extra synth-lube alround!

IP continues to mix scale and backstories and brings in one of histories real nasties.

Anderson: the set up is complete, it’s all a bit too Misty for me.

Thistlebone climaxes and won’t please everyone

Jaegir returns and is set up perfectly in five pages, General Kovert has a hint of Cam Kennedy’s style about him, no bad thing, looking forward to this series playing out over the next month or so, just wish it would be around longer!

Thang promises Sin/Dex next week and a jumping on prog at the end of September.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Eamonn Clarke 10 August, 2019, 03:01:50 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/HwlH3OY.jpg)

Cliff Robinson and Dylan Teague
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Frank 10 August, 2019, 03:10:57 PM
General Kovert

You're kidding me.


: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Richard 10 August, 2019, 03:11:43 PM
Pretty impressive Dredd this week. It concludes next week, and it's hard to see how.

Above average Droid Life.

Thistlebone has a good ending, but it does feel like a Terror Tale stretched out to ten episodes.

I enjoyed Indigo Prime, especially the last page, which made me think of Britain after Brexit.

Anderson finishes, and Jaegir carries on where it left off.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Dandontdare 10 August, 2019, 03:27:08 PM
General Kovert

You're kidding me.

Helm, Gunnar, Bagman, Major Magnum, a war-criminal hunter called "Hunter".... and you find this surprising?
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: GordonR 10 August, 2019, 03:36:57 PM
General Kovert

You're kidding me.

Helm, Gunnar, Bagman, Major Magnum, a war-criminal hunter called "Hunter".... and you find this surprising?

Colonel Kovert is a character in the original Rogue stories.  This is the same GFD Nu Earth character, a few years further down the timeline.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 10 August, 2019, 03:42:39 PM
Colonel Kovert is a character in the original Rogue stories.  This is the same GFD Nu Earth character, a few years further down the timeline.

The first casualty of eternal war is alliteration.

IP continues to mix scale and backstories and brings in one of histories real nasties.

Molcher's in IP? Now that is some transdimensional horror.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Colin YNWA 10 August, 2019, 09:30:42 PM
Well we get an absolute winner of a Prog with two endings. The first is a bit of a surprise in that I've not enjoyed Anderson much to date but have to be honest I thought it ended pretty well and while it wasn't perfect and I still have issues with the art it was certainly a uptick.

The second ending is no surprise in that Thistlebone nails it for me. Its genuinely horrible in the best possible way. This has been a brilliant series and I suspect will stand up very well on re-read. I'd say more please, but suspect it should be left where it is.

Elsewhere we get a swap out and while Jaegir was never going to stand up to the end of Absalom its makes a damned fine fist of it with a great opener. As Proudhuff says nice Cam Kennedy touches to further echo the characters past appearance.

Indigo Prime continues to challenge and delight with a truly evil reveal at the end. Similarly Dredd has a shocker of an ending and is quite, quite brilliant.

With promises of Dabnett and Yeowell back on Sinister Dexter next week I'm a happy camper in the green fields of Tharg's organ.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: 73north 11 August, 2019, 11:22:10 AM
Frankly , Highlight for me this Saturday WAS Jaegir -
and so glad to see the back of Emma Beeby's Anderson PSI Division -
just boring and formulaic , while Thistlebone , one the other hand was pretty damn good
I really enjoyed the latest Dredd - in Contact - and can't wait for the final part next week
Indigo Prime was not too bad either , although I have to concentrate hard to follow it !

Jaegir tonight yet again reminded me why I pay to be a subscriber -
let me start by saying that for me - JAEGIR is absolutely wonderful.
Gordon Rennie and Simon Coleby have done an great instalment with the latest Story Valkrie - JAEGIR: and written a 7th Cavalry to the rescue story .
look forward to reading this until the end of this arc
 ( note to 2000AD - please commission more of this !! )
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: JayzusB.Christ 11 August, 2019, 06:39:12 PM
General Kovert

You're kidding me.

Helm, Gunnar, Bagman, Major Magnum, a war-criminal hunter called "Hunter".... and you find this surprising?

Colonel Kovert is a character in the original Rogue stories.  This is the same GFD Nu Earth character, a few years further down the timeline.

Thought the name sounded familiar.  Haven't read the prog yet but it sounds like a belter.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Richard 11 August, 2019, 07:25:42 PM
Colonel Kovert was my favourite story in the original series (unless we count Cinnabar). I'm glad to see him back. Wasn't he also in Hunted?
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Jacqusie 11 August, 2019, 08:09:42 PM
so glad to see the back of Emma Beeby's Anderson PSI Division - just boring and formulaic   


Whilst I don't think the art did the story any favours (including those gaudy colours) it's a been another failure to give Anderson a re-boot with a script that seemed to dissapear up it's own bum. In trying to discipher a story that in the end really didn't amount to anything, it was all too much like hard work.

Good story telling it wasn't and this seems to sadly be all too apparent in the prog these days, where the script writers seem to insist on making it all rather elaborate in their attempts to take us into labyrinthine plots, which fall rather short in actually allowing the story to be enjoyable.

Story-telling isn't easy, but Anderson hasn't had a decent run for years, coupled with the fact she 's drawn as a 30 year old, she now seems such a throw-away character, lacking any gravitas or connection to MC1 where she was an integral part of the system and bigger plot lines.

Mike Dowling has drawn the best Anderson of recent times and it was wonderful to see David Roach return to the strip, so where has it all gone wrong...  again...?




: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Frank 11 August, 2019, 08:29:45 PM

Durham Grey

Kid Knee-surgery

Incontinence Pad Jack Keller

Finnigan Senile and Ramon Dementia

Bald City Blue

Nikolai Dentagrip

Velcro-fastener Man

Hewligan's Hearing-aid

Tom Zimmer Frame

Mike Carey Home

Post Office Book of The Dead

Fiends of The Eastbourne Front

Shot Glass of Winter Fuel Allowance


: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: I, Cosh 11 August, 2019, 08:51:53 PM
Your boys took one HELL of a beating?
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Frank 11 August, 2019, 09:02:05 PM
Your boys took one HELL of a beating?

 :lol:


: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Judge Olde 12 August, 2019, 12:44:49 AM
so glad to see the back of Emma Beeby's Anderson PSI Division - just boring and formulaic   

... Anderson hasn't had a decent run for years, coupled with the fact she 's drawn as a 30 year old, she now seems such a throw-away character, lacking any gravitas or connection to MC1 where she was an integral part of the system and bigger plot lines.


I've yet to see this weeks prog, but Anderson^^ you've hit the nail on the head. Although her looking as old as 30 would be great, she's looked a lot younger, even on the cover fairly recently. Even going back to Dark Justice, she looked far too young.

These stories for the most part could be any Judge, I'd rather see them rest the character & use her when they have a story that works for the character.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Richard 12 August, 2019, 08:27:05 PM
If Anderson was 20 when we first met her in prog 150, then she'd be 59 now.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Frank 12 August, 2019, 08:36:25 PM

That's not what's wrong with Anderson. She could look like the Queen Mum and the story would still skip like a DVD covered in jam fingerprints.


: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: wedgeski 13 August, 2019, 09:37:07 AM
I agree. Anderson's changeability is really getting on my nerves. She's as much a pillar of the Dreddverse as Dredd himself, and deserves a bit more editorial oversight IMO.

I'm not a big fan of the recent stories either I'm afraid to say, but I respect the author's attempts to do something interesting with her psi-powers.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Jim_Campbell 13 August, 2019, 10:18:26 AM
If Anderson was 20 when we first met her in prog 150, then she'd be 59 now.

Does it not seem odd that Dredd would be the only key Justice Dept asset getting rejuve treatments?
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Dark Jimbo 13 August, 2019, 10:24:33 AM
If Anderson was 20 when we first met her in prog 150, then she'd be 59 now.

Does it not seem odd that Dredd would be the only key Justice Dept asset getting rejuve treatments?

PSI Div personnel can't have rejuve; it would affect their psi abilities.

To be honest, that lore is a bit of a hamstring - if the strip ever explored what it's like for her to age at a normal rate as the rest of the Department stays young around her, it would be worth it. That would be fascinating, and help distinguish her strip a bit from the many other Dreddworld spin-offs. As it is, nobody's ever really touched on that, so you might as well find a magic sci-fi workaround and just give her a bloody rejuve to stop this endless grumbling each and every time she appears.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Jim_Campbell 13 August, 2019, 10:31:53 AM
As it is, nobody's ever really touched on that, so you might as well find a magic sci-fi workaround and just give her a bloody rejuve to stop this endless grumbling each and every time she appears.

Well, yes, that was kind of my point.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Leigh S 13 August, 2019, 11:35:05 AM
This.  I could not get my head around what was going on this week - seemingly one panel contradicts what happened in the previous panel more than once - felt like it had been cut up and reassembled at times.  Maybe that's teh point and my too casual reading of the first episode or two means I ewas doomed to misread the whole thing, so I will give it another shot.

I didnt mind the art, other than it looked like it had been drawn "to size" rather than larger than it would see print.


That's not what's wrong with Anderson. She could look like the Queen Mum and the story would still skip like a DVD covered in jam fingerprints.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Leigh S 13 August, 2019, 03:47:45 PM
SPOILERS for Anderson (wel, only if I'm reading it right, which I confess I could be way off)

Part 1  - Karyn is being trained to control her monster transforming that I recall has something to do with a John Smith Devlin/Dredd crossover from aaaaaaageeeeees ago?  Anderson is picking up one side of a psychic conversation about her failing and volunteering to go to the kook cubes, though Dredd also seems to be able to hear it/knows all about it.  Anderson and Flowers decide that they are going to stop her going where she wants to go, even though Flowers just let her go and was told Karyn wanted to go by Karyn herself, they both decide that she doesnt really want to  How they plan to stop the van and not get sent to Titan is not clear, nor why they put a little old lady in the van with the monster judge. A bigger monster attacks the van.

Part 2 - The monster runs off with Karyn - Anderson doesnt think the reason for the attack was Karyn, even though the monster ran off with Karyn.  Karyn is in a nice garden centre, where she will be safe, apparently, so not sure why Anderson thinks this was a random attack?

Part 3 - Anderson knows these monsters have been abducting people for a while, though how is not clear.  Theres a bit where they are looking at records, presumably of people abducted, but theres some weird talk of "wrongful arrest being optional"? then they find someone on the abducted list who was in an isocube, so must have escaped - they get him to tell them the way to the garden centre

Part 4 - Anderson is told by Shenker "You're (sic) haven't returned the one we lost to the psych facility" - release people in the psych facility who saw the monsters? Shenker knows they realy saw monsters but has them in the facility anyway? Flowers and Anderson have a conversation that I think is Flowers realising Cass's plan is to be taken by the monsters hersef so that PSI division will try to rescue her rather than Karyn? That's not a bad plan (well its a terrible plan, but a nice idea) - not sure why Anderson thnks Flowers would shoot her for it. Karyn is told the monsters are horrible, but bring people to the garden centre who need saving, but are terrible and scary and will hunt them, but cannot enter the garden centre, where they bring people.

Part 5 - a monster is in the Garden centre! Karyn tears it up and the weird lotus man takes her on a trip  - Anderson also appears to be tripping, but maybe all is to be revealed, as when she goes into astral form  she isnt chained up in a hellscape, but in a tiny room!

Part 6 - Anderson goes back into her body and is back in the hellscape. Karyn discovers that Theo, the guy showing her around is an ex (PSI?) Judge how has created a paradise for people shocked by Chaos Day and a hell for reasons. Flowers shows Shenker what has happened and he is sending in Dredd and some Mechanismos.  Shenker refers presumably to a previous story where he and Anderson had hesitated?   Dont recall that one.Andersons plan to go back in her body works because she went back in at the right angle? so she is in her own mind which is free from the hellscape, so also in the real world.  Theo is waiting

Part 7 - Theo is also still with Karyn who tells her that they can protect themselves with more than illusions. Flashback adn Theo is a bad boy PSI judge who is not kicked out for a prank despite seemingly also pranking the disciplinary board? erm.  this totally lost me.  Anderson punches the real Theo, causing the illuson one with Karyn to disappear? though they are really next to each other?  Anderson pleads with Karyn who sides with Theo, but theos disciples shoot Karyn, or maybe shoot at Anderson? Karyn swats them but runs off with Theo

Part 8 - Theo tells Karyn she has to defend them from the Judges as the only way to be free. Anderson, who seems to have been forgotten about, captures a disciple, tells Karyn hshe is taking her in - then Dredd attacks an illusion of Karyn to show Karyn that the Judges are her enemies (another decent plot point), but then Theo says he is  the sacrifice (he is going to give himself up?) and gets hit by a green blast that "ufffs" him.  But Karyn sentences everyone as if this was always the plan? Or maybe Anerson is making this up on teh fly so Dredd doesnt shoot the real Karyn?

yeah, i'm lost.  Couple of decent ideas, but I couldn't follow motivation or action from panel to panel



: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Dark Jimbo 13 August, 2019, 04:04:54 PM
Part 1  - Karyn is being trained to control her monster transforming that I recall has something to do with a John Smith Devlin/Dredd crossover from aaaaaaageeeeees ago?

The body-hopping vampyr was introduced in 2001 in a nice, snappy one-and-done by Rennie/Irving. It ends the story as a sort of troggie King, down in the Undercity.

In 2005 Dredd and Karyn descended into the Undercity courtesy of Rennie/Cook in the wake of the Total War bombing campaign to rescue some missing cits, and the upshot was that Karyn locked the fiend inside herself to take it out of commission.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Leigh S 13 August, 2019, 04:16:10 PM
Cheers Jimbo

Having digested it, Theo Ward is a PSI Judge who following Chaos Day decides to use his illusion powers to set up a paradise where citizens can escape the grim reality of what the City has become.

he sends monsters out to capture people (these dont appear to be illusions, but arent mentioned at the conclusion) and has taken Karyn to act as protector to his illusionary paradise, playing on her treatment by Justice Dept to get her on side. This is becasue he believes he is goinng to be a martyr?  The Judges are going to get him?

All that makes sense, but that's as much as I can get out of it - why does he think he will be a martyr? What are the monsters and where do they go?  What was Theo hoping to acheive?  For a moment I thought the whoe thing was a set up as a test for Karyn, but that doesnt work either. Why is Dredd happy to disobey orders upon seeing the real Karyn, havig just butchered an illusory one? How does re-entering your body from an astral state at the right angle affect the illusions your mind is subject to? Are the Judges holding people in the kook cubes who have seen monsters that the Dept know are real? 



Part 1  - Karyn is being trained to control her monster transforming that I recall has something to do with a John Smith Devlin/Dredd crossover from aaaaaaageeeeees ago?

The body-hopping vampyr was introduced in 2001 in a nice, snappy one-and-done by Rennie/Irving. It ends the story as a sort of troggie King, down in the Undercity.

In 2005 Dredd and Karyn descended into the Undercity courtesy of Rennie/Cook in the wake of the Total War bombing campaign to rescue some missing cits, and the upshot was that Karyn locked the fiend inside herself to take it out of commission.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Jacqusie 13 August, 2019, 06:19:12 PM
Anderson's changeability is really getting on my nerves. She's as much a pillar of the Dreddverse as Dredd himself, and deserves a bit more editorial oversight IMO.


I might get shot down in flames for this, but I wholeheartedly agree, the character needs someone Editorially to get hold of her continuity and plotting and enable some credibility back to Anderson. The previous use of Dowling on art duties worked really well, she just needs a decent script to bring her back into MC1 and maybe a nice day out or two with Dredd to get the old team back together...  :)

: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Frank 14 August, 2019, 09:50:03 AM

(https://i.imgur.com/s2DwqiV.png?2)

All the other wee boys thought Vyvyan was the best Young One, but I worshipped Rik. Good to know Kek-W felt the same.


Judge Sam

Judge Dirty Frank

Judge Michael Smiley

Judge Erhart Gerhart

Judge Caitlin Maitland

Father Todd Unctious


Judge Ellendegeneris Pin


Looking forward to many more Rob Williams Dredd stories in future.


There was absolutely nothing wrong with Thistlebone, but it was paced like a TV show rather than a comic. Pat Mills doesn't write comics like eighties Nemesis or Slaine anymore, but anyone who has read that combination of super-condensed ideas and exciting action and doesn't see that this is something to which the comic form is uniquely suited needs a brick through their window.

Appropriating forms from other media is something Comics are also good at, but if I wanted to watch an episode of Midsomer Murders I'd probably do that rather than seek out the comic version. Eglinton's interviews suggest he did enough research to pack 3000 years of paganism into ten parts. The only reason not to do so is, presumably, an Alan Partridge desire for a second series.

The trajectory of all long-running 2000ad strips demonstrates that this kind of concentration of incident and ideas isn't sustainable beyond a few books, but I could live with not reading The Thistlebone Who Laughs or Ultimate Thistlebone in 30 years time. Davis's art has been incredible throughout - a real shame we seem to have lost him from comics, hopefully not permanently or for too long.

I can't recommend the BBC's Thatcher (https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0005br9/thatcher-a-very-british-revolution-series-1-1-making-margaret) retrospective more highly. Works as nostalgia, even if you're not into the politics of the time as much as Kek-W.


(https://i.imgur.com/MBOlUHK.png?2)


: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: broodblik 14 August, 2019, 02:28:45 PM
A very good prog

Great to have Jaegir back. My only gripe is that this will mostly run for only 6 episodes and then we have to wait again.

Dredd by Williams and Weston is just awesome. What a last page.

Thistlebone wraps up with an interesting ending. This series will read at its best in a collection. Still highly enjoyable.

Anderson ends, although it was not that bad it still feels like it is missing something.

: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Frank 14 August, 2019, 08:07:51 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/9n8hBxw.png?2)


Nothing is wasted (https://youtu.be/SUwPHTI47Lg)


: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 14 August, 2019, 08:47:04 PM
Allow me to kick against the pricks and say that: (a). I thought the pacing, well-judged restraint (no boss fight/monster reveal) and TCE's trust in letting SBD's superb imagery do the work in Thistlebone made this one of my favourite strips in ages; and (b). I thought Anderson played out very well, with a comprehensive conclusion which more than made up for any minor lacunae along the way. Aneke's art grew on me week on week, and I ended up really liking it, despite the usual 20something Anderson reservations.

Elsewhere the seamless start to a new Jaegir chapter was perfectly executed, and Weston drew some truly magnificent rat-things in Dredd.

Other aspects of the Prog were sadly not to my taste.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Geoff 14 August, 2019, 10:00:21 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/s2DwqiV.png?2)

I worshipped Rik.

A hilarious character, realised brilliantly by the wild talent that was Rik Mayall.  Sadly missed...

Oddly, the character's tendency to call anything he found remotely disagreeable FASCIST seems to have caught on quite widely...

Anyway, speaking of fascists, Dredd was on great form again this week.  Loving the art and being both involved in and excited by the story is something of a rare treat these days.

Great to see Jaegir back and the back of this recent Anderson.  Couldn't agree more with the comments above about how ill-treated by editorial poor old Cass has been of late. Give her a good script, that has something of her character in, and a decent art-droid, or leave her be.   
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Max Headroom 14 August, 2019, 10:30:48 PM
I really like Anderson as a character but found the whole thing totally confusing. The idea of the illusions was a 
good one, but suffered in the end from not being clear what really transpired and what didn't. It really could have done with being a bit less vague. Is it just me who is being overly dense or did others struggle to see what was real?
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 15 August, 2019, 12:04:35 AM
Wasn't that confusion largely the point? We experienced it alongside the characters.

In the end none of the funky stuff was 'real', apart from Karyn's transformations and the Chaos survivors it was all a product of Ward's illusion power. I thought the varioud abductions were carried out by goons with guns, disguised by Ward's power as monsters.

Hence Anderson was imprisoned in a regular cell, but thought she was trapped in some hell world fighting monsters.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Magnetica 15 August, 2019, 02:02:38 AM
Wasn't that confusion largely the point? We experienced it alongside the characters.

Not sure about that. There comes a point where unclear story telling gets in the way and makes reading stuff not enjoyable. And for me we have had that in spades over the last few weeks with Anderson and Indigo Prime. It’s funny how stories by Dan Abnett never suffer from being unclear. It’s really not a virtue.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 15 August, 2019, 06:23:59 AM
I have serious problems with Indigo Prime, but I don't see anything unclear about the storytelling. The *plot* is gratuitously complicated but that is very much the intention - the actual panel-to-pane and page-to-page content is well communicated.

Conversely there were problems with storytelling in Anderson, but as a whole the story - contrasting two different 'fallen' Psi judges to show one's redemption - worked fine.

I value a nice clear story very highly, but I think there's definitely room for strips that deliberately confuse and puzzle in comics, as in all fiction.

: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Colin YNWA 15 August, 2019, 06:43:04 AM
I have serious problems with Indigo Prime, but I don't see anything unclear about the storytelling. The *plot* is gratuitously complicated but that is very much the intention - the actual panel-to-pane and page-to-page content is well communicated.

Conversely there were problems with storytelling in Anderson, but as a whole the story - contrasting two different 'fallen' Psi judges to show one's redemption - worked fine.

I value a nice clear story very highly, but I think there's definitely room for strips that deliberately confuse and puzzle in comics, as in all fiction.

Getting both sides of this. I'm loving the current Indigo Prime - for all the surrounding issues as a story judge in and of itself its good comcis - I actually don't think its the plot that's confusing. Its pretty straight forward. The main challenge is that it immerses you in its universe so completely and in doing so uses languages and concepts that are deliberately otherworldly which gives it its scale and wonder. It uses this to pull you in completely to pull you in and experience something in a way it wouldn't if it was straightforward. The actual things that happen are pretty straightforward - well lets be clear for sci-fi terms! - once you work with this.

The thing is there's enough there to make me work with it.

In the case of Anderson its trying the same thing, but for me didn't give me enough to make me want to work with it (the me's are deliberate to emphasize a point to come). So while it was doing the same thing it didn't give me enough to make me invest. That said the end was pretty good and even though I was drifting from it I got the end and that made me want to go back, on one level, and take the reveal and see how that it reflected on my take of what had gone before. The trouble is I just wasn't invested enough to actually do so.

So yes comics can and in many ways should, confuse and puzzle, stretch and challenge - as Todalback says - as should all fiction - but it needs to give the reader enough to make them want to do that. Now what the needs are the reader brings to that fiction that make them want to invest will vary from person to person. Hence the craft required to draw as many in as possible is quite something. If the creators manage to do that, as a reader making me work with you to get to whatever story I draw out - be it what the creators intended or not, that strangely doesn't really matter, its what the story the reader gets from what the writer and in the case of comics artists and others bring to meet the needs the reader) bring with them...

...I'm going on ....

: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 15 August, 2019, 07:59:51 AM
I agree that the IP plot itself is straightforward- probably too much so - but the way in which it plays out is intentionally dense and involved. I actually find the wacly asides and doomladen alarums annoying - we get it, get on with it.

Although againyou reactions to current IP.are coloured by my feelings about its very existence.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 15 August, 2019, 08:06:45 AM
Oh dear lord I need to get a bigger phone.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: norton canes 15 August, 2019, 10:12:41 AM
There was absolutely nothing wrong with Thistlebone, but it was paced like a TV show rather than a comic. Pat Mills doesn't write comics like eighties Nemesis or Slaine anymore, but anyone who has read that combination of super-condensed ideas and exciting action and doesn't see that this is something to which the comic form is uniquely suited needs a brick through their window.

Appropriating forms from other media is something Comics are also good at, but if I wanted to watch an episode of Midsomer Murders I'd probably do that rather than seek out the comic version. Eglinton's interviews suggest he did enough research to pack 3000 years of paganism into ten parts. The only reason not to do so is, presumably, an Alan Partridge desire for a second series.

The trajectory of all long-running 2000ad strips demonstrates that this kind of concentration of incident and ideas isn't sustainable beyond a few books

This all sounds very sensible but could I respectfully play Devil's advocate and point out that 2000 AD's most successful new strip of the last few years has been Brink, the box set-style long-form procedural with a preposterously low incident to page count ratio?
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Greg M. 15 August, 2019, 10:31:31 AM
2000 AD's most successful new strip of the last few years has been Brink, the box set-style long-form procedural with a preposterously low incident to page count ratio

This pretty much pinpoints exactly why I (personally, subjectively, no slur on the abilities of the creative folks involved intended) find Brink so impossible to engage with – to me, it just seems so decompressed and forgettable. Up until this comment, however, I don’t think I understood why everyone else enjoyed it so much – the whole modern ‘box-set’ style consumption of telly (and indeed age of telly) is not something I participate in, whereas other folk love that stuff, so of course they respond to a series with a comparable trajectory or structure.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Judge Olde 15 August, 2019, 10:39:50 AM
Dredd

While I've been enjoying the current story, Dredd seems incapable of avoiding capture or getting large holes blown in him on an increasingly regular basis. It'll be interesting to see how the story plays out, but I was disappointed to see Gerhart has been so easily dispatched & it looks like the same for Maitland.

Pin has been hanging around for a while now, adding to the list of senior Judges who have operated under the nose of Dredd & been rogue...
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: norton canes 15 August, 2019, 11:06:29 AM
Looking forward to a change in next week's line-up now Anderson and Thistlebone have concluded. This Anderson story lost me almost from its first installment, and I'm afraid to say that T.C. Eglington's folk horror tale didn't really click either. Jaegir, on the other hand, is as fantastic as ever - I guess I should dig out progs 350-355 and see what Colonel Covert was up to last time we saw him...
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: norton canes 15 August, 2019, 11:07:18 AM
(^ Covert Kovert)
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Dandontdare 15 August, 2019, 12:31:10 PM
The last page of Anderson made no sense in a Justice Dept context ... Anderson and Karyn just basically told their boss "nah, we're not going to do that, we're going back on the streets. Can she be  controlled? Nah, but we're going to do it anyway" and then they ride off into the city.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: IndigoPrime 15 August, 2019, 12:37:31 PM
And they’re not wearing helmets. Tsk. (Yeah, yeah, psychic abilities blah blah. I rather side with movie Dredd on that score.)
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 15 August, 2019, 12:42:15 PM
Dredd seems incapable of avoiding capture or getting large holes blown in him on an increasingly regular basis...

I always associated the age of Captive Dredd with Ennis' stewardship, but skimming back Wagner & Grant did a fair bit of it too. However it does seem to have become at least a monthly occurrence lately, unfortunate as Passive Dredd is probably my least favourite flavour after Malicious Dredd.

The last page of Anderson made no sense in a Justice Dept context ... Anderson and Karyn just basically told their boss "nah, we're not going to do that, we're going back on the streets. Can she be  controlled? Nah, but we're going to do it anyway" and then they ride off into the city.

I read that as shorthand for Anderson successfuly making the case that Karyn was an asset despite/because of her abilities, which makes sense for a Psi Judge.

Shenker's been Division Head for more than 30 years, I imagine he can make a decision about how best to wrangle his freaks.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Dandontdare 15 August, 2019, 12:46:30 PM

The last page of Anderson made no sense in a Justice Dept context ... Anderson and Karyn just basically told their boss "nah, we're not going to do that, we're going back on the streets. Can she be  controlled? Nah, but we're going to do it anyway" and then they ride off into the city.

I read that as shorthand for Anderson successfuly making the case that Karyn was an asset despite/because of her abilities, which makes sense for a Psi Judge.

Shenker's been Division Head for more than 30 years, I imagine he can make a decision about how best to wrangle his freaks.

Maybe he can, but that's not how it was written - it was basically just Shenker being overruled by his subordinates. Why would he let her on the streets when she openly admits that she can't control the demon? Seems an odd decision to me, and one that requires at last a line of dialogue to justify it.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Dandontdare 15 August, 2019, 12:47:18 PM
"least" not last - - why do certain topics not allow edits?  :-\
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 15 August, 2019, 12:53:20 PM
Did the conclusion of the story not demonstrate that Karyn could still act siccessfully as a judge despite being a rage-vampire? Dredd and Anderson both agreed with her judgement, that seems like a solid endorsement. Maybe an additional line or caption could have reiterated this, but if numbers are so drsperate that robots and Sovs can now be judges as long as they uphold the Law, why not monsters?
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: broodblik 15 August, 2019, 02:46:08 PM
The Anderson story was not bad but it is almost a case for me if this was the last ever Anderson in the prog then I will not miss it. I feel the character needs a dramatic change to make her interesting again.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Leigh S 15 August, 2019, 03:57:15 PM
I'd like a line explaining where the big monsters went to (or how they coud bust into security vehicles if they were just illusions).  And one explaining why Justice Dpt appeared to be keeping people in kook cubes who they knew weren't insane. And a few more really

Did the conclusion of the story not demonstrate that Karyn could still act siccessfully as a judge despite being a rage-vampire? Dredd and Anderson both agreed with her judgement, that seems like a solid endorsement. Maybe an additional line or caption could have reiterated this, but if numbers are so drsperate that robots and Sovs can now be judges as long as they uphold the Law, why not monsters?
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Greg M. 15 August, 2019, 05:02:58 PM
Judge Dredd trapped up to his neck in the dirt is turning into that Robo-Hunter story where Sam Slade spends a whole episode stuck in a chair. But for twice as long.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Frank 15 August, 2019, 05:33:59 PM
Judge Dredd trapped up to his neck in the dirt is turning into that Robo-Hunter story where Sam Slade spends a whole episode stuck in a chair. But for twice as long.


Fool. Dredd's slowly worked his neck and upper shoulders free. And that's just one episode.


(https://i.imgur.com/36XXZpW.png?1)(https://i.imgur.com/f9Nm6cc.png?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/Psn7J9e.png?2)


: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Tomwe 15 August, 2019, 05:36:30 PM
Judge Dredd trapped up to his neck in the dirt is turning into that Robo-Hunter story where Sam Slade spends a whole episode stuck in a chair. But for twice as long.


Fool. Dredd's slowly worked his neck and upper shoulders free. And that's just one episode.


(https://i.imgur.com/36XXZpW.png?1)(https://i.imgur.com/f9Nm6cc.png?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/Psn7J9e.png?2)

Frank's post has reminded me the little problem (sorry!) I had with the Weston droid's art this week - reverse foreshortening on those boots!
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Greg M. 15 August, 2019, 05:41:39 PM
Fool. Dredd's slowly worked his neck and upper shoulders free. And that's just one episode.

He didn't even do that himself, Maitland just scraped a bit off by hand!
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Frank 15 August, 2019, 05:55:04 PM

Mike Carroll stuck Dredd in bed for a Summer, Niemand and Williams mix things up with a bed/buried combo. The real excitement of these stories is guessing which member of the supporting cast will rescue Dredd.


(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/scoobydoo/images/b/bf/Penelope_Pitstop.png/revision/latest?cb=20180912140935)


: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 15 August, 2019, 06:06:05 PM
I'm guessing Giant.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Colin YNWA 15 August, 2019, 06:07:29 PM
Dredd shouting "Maitland Duck!" I'd forgotten he was from Sheffield.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 15 August, 2019, 06:10:20 PM
Dredd shouting "Maitland Duck!" I'd forgotten he was from Sheffield.

-audible groan-
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Frank 15 August, 2019, 06:28:47 PM
I'm guessing Giant.

Strawberry

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/76/6a/4f/766a4fca301cd90c9aee11a8f975ca2b.jpg)


: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Greg M. 15 August, 2019, 06:30:14 PM

The real excitement of these stories is guessing which member of the supporting cast will rescue Dredd.

“And eventually he was rescued by, oh… let’s say Joe Moe.”
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: broodblik 15 August, 2019, 07:28:08 PM

The real excitement of these stories is guessing which member of the supporting cast will rescue Dredd.

“And eventually he was rescued by, oh… let’s say Joe Moe.”

A Wobot to the Wescue
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 15 August, 2019, 07:48:44 PM
Y'know what'd be good? If it was Joyce, or Pax, or Lamia, or (best of all) Patsy to the rescue. Then we might be getting somewhere.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Frank 15 August, 2019, 08:06:15 PM
Y'know what'd be good? If it was Joyce, or Pax, or Lamia, or (best of all) Patsy to the rescue. Then we might be getting somewhere.

I realise this is the point you're making, but those are other writers' characters and Dredd writers tend not to rub each other's rhubarb*.  More likely to be the Black Horse.


* I'm less keen than other readers on the idea of a shared Dreddverse, coordinated by Tharg or bashed into shape during quarterly writer retreats, but I'm not really interested in Dredd anymore, so my opinion doesn't count. Go ahead and rejuve him back to his teens and resurrect the Angel gang again while you're at it.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: TordelBack 15 August, 2019, 08:34:24 PM
Sure, an editorially mandated breakfast club might be annoying, but for example Mike writes Joyce as one of Joe's besties (I believe the young folk say 'tribe' now), it seems odd that he's not around when Rob writes him. I'm not suggesting that he loses a limb or anything, but these bubbles intersecting every now and again'd sell the whole thing as a whole thing, no?
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Frank 15 August, 2019, 08:58:57 PM

My comic reading experience before 2000ad was The Beano and Oor Wullie, where the reset button was triggered every time Wullie sat on his bucket or Dennis's arse took another slippering. Characters sometimes popped into each other's strips, but that was just a laugh*

Other approaches are valid and, I understand, very popular.


* The idea that stuff happening in one story affects another story still seems a bit extra to me. The furious peddling necessary to make the Stront/Dredd/Robohunter worlds align is energy and time you could spend thinking of something cool for Dredd to do in a story, rather napping.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: paddykafka 16 August, 2019, 12:42:33 PM
Fool. Dredd's slowly worked his neck and upper shoulders free. And that's just one episode.

He didn't even do that himself, Maitland just scraped a bit off by hand!

Woo! Woo! Fnarr! Fnarr
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Arkady 17 August, 2019, 10:18:29 AM

(https://i.imgur.com/9n8hBxw.png?2)


Nothing is wasted (https://youtu.be/SUwPHTI47Lg)

I made the same connection- Goodnight Kiss is one of my all-time favourites. I even asked Mr Williams about it and got this response from Chris Weston:

https://twitter.com/westonfront/status/1162430336070029314?s=19
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Darren Stephens 17 August, 2019, 11:35:50 AM
Mmmm, ended up getting this from Smiths, as my sub copy was a no show. Today...no prog again. Anyone else having a similar issue?
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Geoff 17 August, 2019, 11:38:44 AM
Mine arrived this morning ok...
(Sorry to hear yours didn't, I still look forward to getting it even when it's not on form, and at the moment it mostly is)
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: metcalfecarr 20 August, 2019, 12:03:26 PM
This is the first time in many progs where the cover hasn't worked for me.  Yes it's technically great, and Cliff is a master of the cover but for me it's too clean.  Cliff's bright and shiney style doesn't work for Jaegir.  It's a personal thing, I know, but it's totally misrepresentitive of the strip, and a bad choice of artist by editorial
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Bolt-01 20 August, 2019, 12:52:02 PM
Nah, think it is a cracking cover. The flames are very eye catching which is sometimes all a new reader needs to be attracted. Dylan Teague may well have gone for a darker pallette of colour but the point of a cover is to catch the eye.


Don't think I've ever heard of Cliff Robinson being described as a 'bad' choice of artist before. Sounds wrong.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Proudhuff 20 August, 2019, 01:24:53 PM
I'm guessing Giant.

Nope! A series of unfortunate accidents.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Woolly 20 August, 2019, 01:31:19 PM
This is the first time in many progs where the cover hasn't worked for me.  Yes it's technically great, and Cliff is a master of the cover but for me it's too clean.  Cliff's bright and shiney style doesn't work for Jaegir.  It's a personal thing, I know, but it's totally misrepresentitive of the strip, and a bad choice of artist by editorial

Nope, not having that.

As Bolt said, the cover is meant to be eye-catching and exciting. As you say, the Robinson droid always manages this in spades. Yes, his style is nothing like that of the Coleby droid (who's is?), but he's evoking the character and the setting perfectly in my eyes. Must admit, I also love to see another artists interpretation on the cover from time to time, especially when the strip itself has one resident art-droid.

Oddly, when I first saw it, I thought it was by PJ, mainly due to how Atalia has been drawn. Just thought I'd throw that in there.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: Woolly 20 August, 2019, 01:32:39 PM
This is the first time in many progs where the cover hasn't worked for me.  Yes it's technically great, and Cliff is a master of the cover but for me it's too clean.  Cliff's bright and shiney style doesn't work for Jaegir.  It's a personal thing, I know, but it's totally misrepresentitive of the strip, and a bad choice of artist by editorial

Nope, not having that.

As Bolt said, the cover is meant to be eye-catching and exciting. As you say, the Robinson droid always manages this in spades. Yes, his style is nothing like that of the Coleby droid (who's is?), but he's evoking the character and the setting perfectly in my eyes. Must admit, I also love to see another artists interpretation on the cover from time to time, especially when the strip itself has one resident art-droid.

Oddly, when I first saw it, I thought it was by PJ, mainly due to how Atalia has been drawn. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Apologies if that all sounds like I'm having a pop! Fully respect anyone's right to not like something  :thumbsup:
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: metcalfecarr 20 August, 2019, 04:23:22 PM
Nah, think it is a cracking cover. The flames are very eye catching which is sometimes all a new reader needs to be attracted. Dylan Teague may well have gone for a darker pallette of colour but the point of a cover is to catch the eye.

Don't think I've ever heard of Cliff Robinson being described as a 'bad' choice of artist before. Sounds wrong.

I didn't say it was bad, I said, in my opinion, it's too clean and shiney.  Jaegir is tonally a dark story as well as the art being dark.  Cliff's art is not tonally dark and that is where I feel it doesn't work.  It's too clean and bright and shiney and nice, the polar opposite of the content it is depicting.  Therfore, for me it's a fail. And dark covers do work, and can attract readers, you only have look at the sucessful Bartman covers of the last 70 years.  That is why I said it was a bad editorial choice.
: Re: Prog 2144 War Crimes and Retribution
: metcalfecarr 20 August, 2019, 04:29:17 PM
This is the first time in many progs where the cover hasn't worked for me.  Yes it's technically great, and Cliff is a master of the cover but for me it's too clean.  Cliff's bright and shiney style doesn't work for Jaegir.  It's a personal thing, I know, but it's totally misrepresentitive of the strip, and a bad choice of artist by editorial

Nope, not having that.

As Bolt said, the cover is meant to be eye-catching and exciting. As you say, the Robinson droid always manages this in spades. Yes, his style is nothing like that of the Coleby droid (who's is?), but he's evoking the character and the setting perfectly in my eyes.

 Must admit, I also love to see another artists interpretation on the cover from time to time, especially when the strip itself has one resident art-droid.

Oddly, when I first saw it, I thought it was by PJ, mainly due to how Atalia has been drawn. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

I also love to see other artists renditions of characters, such as Steve Dillon's Zenith covers, but ton the flip I didn't like Clint Langley's covers for LeatherJack (mind you Im not a fan of Langley so that could have something to do with it)

Apologies if that all sounds like I'm having a pop! Fully respect anyone's right to not like something  :thumbsup: