2000 AD Online Forum

Spoilers => Prog => : Tjm86 23 February, 2020, 09:39:20 AM

: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Tjm86 23 February, 2020, 09:39:20 AM
Well it's not completely uncommon for a day to go by before the weekly review thread is started but it is rare.  Not going to read owt into that mind.  Surely just a coincidence that it coincides with the first (!) of this year's Regened progs.

Cover - courtesy of Mark sexton.  Simple yet effective.  Old School logo once again.

Dredd - artwork works well on a fairly serviceable one off.  Isolated cadets face off against an inter dimensional threat to save MC1.

Bek and Kawl mc 2 - Sorry, Finder & Keeper.  Okay, that is a little unfair but the parallels are a little too obvious.  Moore, Reppion and Tinto serve up a supernatural tale.  Works okay but nowt spectacular.

Future Shocks - Living Your Best Life. Karma, reincarnation and a spoilt little scrote.  Stock and Horsman show how the format works in a reasonable little tale.

The Gronks - The Trouble With Gronkses.  Personally it felt like Baillie and Davis gave the best of the prog.  Artwork works well and there's a nice little nod to some early Stront strips.  It also served up the only LOL moment of the prog which will no doubt go over pretty much the entire intended audience's head.  The Elderses of Dobbyn. 

Rogue Trooper - Scott and Roche's take is another that works reasonably well.  Linking back to Milli-Com memories with a couple of nice little artistic homage's to Kennedy's work.

Sorry if this seems a little underwhelming.  TBH the first reading did not inspire but taking the time and trouble to dig out the positives does give a better feel.  To me though this is the real problem, it is very rare that such effort is needed to appreciate the prog.  A little unfair perhaps and it would be interesting to hear the take from someone that it was intended for (as opposed to us old fogey's who were that age when we started!)
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Eamonn Clarke 23 February, 2020, 11:47:24 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/oPGidot.jpg)

This must be the cover that Mark talked about doing when he was on my episode about the Dead Man.
Have I mentioned that I do a podcast at all?  ;)



(https://i.imgur.com/xRDR0Oq.jpg)
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Bolt-01 24 February, 2020, 09:27:03 AM
Well, I really enjoyed that. Especially the Gronk strip - the standout for me.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Proudhuff 24 February, 2020, 03:43:04 PM
The lack of comment maybe the lack of Proggage?

With half of Engerland under water, there maybe some trouble getting the prog thro...

 Certainly no sign of it here in the wastes of East Lothian
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: IndigoPrime 24 February, 2020, 03:47:12 PM
Mine only showed up this morning. Mini-G’s Phoenix was also late this week.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: IndigoPrime 24 February, 2020, 09:35:47 PM
I assume ep3 of Finder & Keeper will be about treatment for concrete burns? Yikes.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Colin YNWA 24 February, 2020, 09:47:33 PM
Yeah only got mine today and alas I'm in the less than impressed camp. Now to be clear I've been a fan of all the Regened issues to date and am happy with the plan for four this year. Timing of this issue mid-flow aside its great that Tharg is doing something different and experimenting with reaching different folks and experimenting with different types of story - this is all good and I approve wholeheartedly.

The trouble is all this only works if the content is good and while the content here isn't bad its so solidly okay the excerise lacks the inspiration that it requires.

Cadet Dredd - Solid action fun.

Finder & Keeper - The best thing about it is it reads like an extended version of Folklore Thursday. Its harmless but lacked thrill.

Future Shock - Kind lack much of a Shock - its okay though.

The Gronk - This is fun but nothing new, but well executed.

Rogue Trooper - is fun action nonsense but again just solid at best.

So yeah its not a failure as such on its own terms its okay. Its just to win over the crowd it needed to be more and so as such its a real missed opportunity.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: IndigoPrime 25 February, 2020, 10:44:28 AM
Dredd: Felt quite old-school in nature. Suited the ‘Cadet’ setting, but with a few very minor tweaks would have worked fine as a 400-era Dredd. Enjoyable. Nicely illustrated. Good to see one of the senior judges was a woman (something that is still bafflingly rare in the Prog). Good also that it got room to breathe.

Finder & Keeper: Aside from the cement incident, fine. Wouldn’t feel out of place in the standard Prog if the protagonists were aged up a little.

Future Shock: Not terribly shocking, but a nice enough yarn. Could easily have run in the Prog as-is, rather than here.

The Gronk: I had no idea what to expect from this. I despised the Gronk solo strip back in the day, but this was great. Amusingly stupid throughout, with a nice nod to Dobbyn, and great dialogue. Best thing in the Prog for me. Again, I’d have been happy to have seen this one-shot in a standard Prog or special.

Rogue Trooper: I’m not a big fan of the strip in general, bar Smith-penned weirdness, The War Machine, and Jaegir. So this felt a bit by-the-numbers, but it was nice enough with decent art. It felt sanitised over the RT that the current Prog might have, but again had a kind of classic vibe.

Again, I don’t like the scheduling, but I find it odd how much pushback there is against these ‘regened’ Progs, especially from people who mostly spend their time bellyaching about how 2000 AD isn’t as good as it was in the old days. To a great extent – with the exception of some mildly sanitised art, and the sheer amount of colour – this kind of felt like a Prog beamed in from the old days.

Frankly, The Gronk alone was worth the price of admission. But I certainly don’t feel short-changed by how the entire issue turned out.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Magnetica 25 February, 2020, 02:26:48 PM
One thing I noticed is that the art seemed simpler compared to what we get in the normal Prog. I don’t understand the need to so that, if indeed it was intentional.

Overall, it was ok I guess, but as Colin says, it wasn’t  particularly thrilling.

I did find the dialogue in Finder and Keeper referring to the phone company a bit jarring - no-one talks like that. I know it was an attempt to avoid mentioning an actual company, but surely a made up name is normal procedure.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Richard 26 February, 2020, 12:44:26 AM
this kind of felt like a Prog beamed in from the old days.

Not to me. This felt too sanitised to compare it with 1980s progs. The best stories to read as a kid were the ones you knew your mum wouldn't approve of you reading. Stories where the art is detailed and doesn't look like your artistically-inclined mate could have drawn it himself. Stories where the lead characters are adults not kids.

I hope this sells lots of copies and inspires a generation of children to read or keep reading comics, but it's not like the comic we grew up with.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: judgeurko 26 February, 2020, 12:54:13 PM
I don't see the point of these Regened progs. If young readers enjoy it then next week they pic up the prog & it's completely different. They should just be specials or a separate prog running alongside the real one.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Bolt-01 26 February, 2020, 01:06:32 PM
From my perspective the reason for these replacing the regular prog for a week is to ensure that the Regened issues get as wide a distribution as possible by being in the place of 2000 AD in the likes of WHSmiths etc.

Rebellion are testing the waters this year with what, 12 specials AND the four Regened progs? That is a huge commitment to both new and vintage content.

Without new readers, attracted as young as possible and given time to form the habit of buying comics, then all of this work will be wasted as existing readership passes away (quite literally given enough time).

So while I would love to see these as a stand alone strand, I can appreciate what TMO is pushing for and applaud.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: broodblik 26 February, 2020, 01:31:51 PM
It was one of those progs where I never felt connected to it. I cannot say what was missing it is just a case that it was not as enjoyable as the preceding progs. The Cadet Dredd story was the best by far.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: pauljholden 26 February, 2020, 01:32:15 PM
I don't see the point of these Regened progs. If young readers enjoy it then next week they pic up the prog & it's completely different. They should just be specials or a separate prog running alongside the real one.
It's been discussed before but it's enormously (prohibitively so) expensive to create a brand new comic and distribute it to newsagents, if it was as simple as just printing it they'd do that, but it's not. You'll hit inertia with the distributers and the newsagents, and newsagents - let's remember - frequently charge for magazines to be located in prime spots - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/14/wh-smith-moves-telegraph-titles-to-magazine-section ) so I suspect (and I have zero inside knowledge) the hope is they can get these on the shelves in place of regular progs and build the momentum to have the readers/distributers/newsagents ask for more...

(It may be pure wishful thinking to hope we'd get a weekly regened, it could be the fact they're specials is what's making them ...uhm./.. special)
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Bolt-01 26 February, 2020, 01:44:53 PM
I know it might not be the done thing# - but I'd love to see an ABC warriors strip. The slightly longer format used in Regened would lend itself to a strip introducing the Warriors and telling tales from the original Mars mission.

#Given the unnofficial, hands off approach to 'Pat Mills' characters.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: IndigoPrime 26 February, 2020, 01:48:01 PM
it's enormously (prohibitively so) expensive to create a brand new comic and distribute it to newsagents
As I’ve said before, there are six good reasons to not launch a new comic/magazine. (That would be the numbers, in a row, with a £ before them.) This is why you quite often see magazines code-sharing (one title flips between various forms), or magazine X take over from magazine Y, yet still technically retain the spot of the older title.

2000 AD locally seems to be improving in terms of distribution. I see it and the Meg now in some local supermarkets, which is great. But in a market that’s getting an absolute kicking, any new launch would be a colossal risk, and Rebellion are right to be cautious. Also, frankly, if Regened increases the viability of the Prog through more sales, that’d be great even if I wasn’t keen. (As it was, I enjoyed reading it.)
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Jim_Campbell 26 February, 2020, 01:48:51 PM
Just to second everything that PJ [EDIT: and IndigoPrime] said and to add that I used to work in newspaper/magazine production and, nearly twenty years ago now, I wrote a detailed business plan for launching a new high street comic.

Remember that we have twenty years' worth of inflation to consider, along with a far less healthy high street market to take into account when I say that launching a new title then cost a rock solid minimum £500,000 pounds to get out of the door — and that was with a minimal promotional budget and working on the assumption that I would be doing all the editorial and production for free out of my spare bedroom.

A more accurate figure to do it propely, even back then, would probably leave no change out of a million quid.

Add to that the horrific cash-flow of a venture where you're piling up commissioning costs weeks and months in advance, and a significant lag on revenue in the form of payment from the distributors. You're looking at being at least £1.5-£2M out of pocket before you have any idea whether your new title is going to break even, never mind turn a profit.*

Like PJ, I have no idea whether some hypothetical companion 'junior' title is the end goal of all this, but baby steps like these ones are absolutely the only sensible way to make any progress in expanding the market.

*Before anyone says "Didn't Rebellion just spend a gazillion quid buying a new set of film/TV studio premises?" remember that if a publishing venture like the one I describe flops, you have literally no resale-able assets to offset the losses.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Keef Monkey 26 February, 2020, 02:38:31 PM
I guess I'm in the camp of not enjoying the Regened progs anywhere near as much as a regular issue, but also not having any problem with them existing. The timing breaking up the flow of weekly strips is definitely annoying, but four times a year is rare enough that it's hard to get too salty about it. I do think if as a kid I'd found a comic I liked but I was only able to read very occasional issues of I'd maybe find the whole thing a bit confusing, and if you didn't have a parent to hand that issue down to you then you'd probably have no idea another Regene issue was happening. I'd imagine they're of most value to regular readers who are parents and can pass these occasional progs to their sprogs, so would be interested to hear how they're enjoying them.

I think it works best when the stories don't necessarily feel like a departure from the main prog, that Cadet Dredd story would probably work well enough in the adult prog so was one of the highlights (although I kept waiting for the glasses established at the start to play into things? Unless I missed something that was all a bit Chekov's gun.

Finder & Keeper was also pretty enjoyable fun, and I liked the Rogue Trooper story. It played out like a Saturday morning cartoon version of Nu-Earth and that was fun to see, and the artwork was cool (it was great through the whole prog actually).

The Future Shock and Gronk stories didn't really work for me though, not sure why but they just didn't connect as well, possibly because they did skew more to the younger reader maybe? Not sure, but they still looked colourful and fun so didn't necessarily dislike them.

I'll probably still read these when they come out, but I have to admit that personally I'd much rather have a regular prog in their place so will be a little disappointed when they roll around. If they're fulfilling a service for other readers though then I've no problem with them existing.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Proudhuff 26 February, 2020, 02:43:28 PM

So the SprogProg finally landed in Huff Mansions Sur-Le Mer and I'm happy with lots, the heft, the breadth and breathless excitment of the whole thing  and anything that raises Tharg's standard over WHS and their midden of free plastic tat comic is always welcome...

Cadet Dredd - Solid action fun. No sense of threat or such but some great layouts and story telling, especially that subtle last page.

Finder & Keeper -  Folklore Thursday/ that's a good thing.

Future Shock - Kindof forgot it already sorry old age!

The Gronk - yeah fun, but I feel we've been here before? It feels some familiar.

Rogue Trooper - If this was done woth less cartoony mutants and a darker groove to the baby thing this would easily sit in the Prog.

Overall agree with questioning the timing of this issue rather than the content.


: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Proudhuff 26 February, 2020, 02:45:49 PM
Damn where's the feckin edit button!?
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Dudley 27 February, 2020, 06:40:44 AM
Since this Prog is aimed at younger types than the standard embittered by life forty and fifty somethings that inhabit this forum, can I suggest that any of you who have children in the target range hand over reviewing duties to your child for this week? The reviews here do snack a bit of the Doctor Who fanbase whenever the show tries to be extra kiddie friendly...
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Tjm86 27 February, 2020, 07:20:42 AM
On the one hand I can see your point, Dudley.  Granted that the reviews have erred more on the dissatisfied side but I would question whether they reach anywhere near the vitriol of the WhoBase.  There is a fairly balanced approach looking for the positives and questioning rather than castigating.

On the other hand quite a few bodies here are subscribers and therefore not the target range.  Also, it is touted as an 'all ages' edition.  Considering that companies such as Pixar have managed to cater to both children and their parents at the same time, is it completely inappropriate to reflect from our "embittered forty or fiftyish" perspective?

: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: norton canes 27 February, 2020, 10:57:43 AM
Sigh. Where to weigh in on the Regened issue issue?

After reading the prog, and this thread, my instinctive reaction was essentially this:

This felt too sanitised to compare it with 1980s progs. The best stories to read as a kid were the ones you knew your mum wouldn't approve of you reading. Stories where the art is detailed and doesn't look like your artistically-inclined mate could have drawn it himself. Stories where the lead characters are adults not kids.

I hope this sells lots of copies and inspires a generation of children to read or keep reading comics, but it's not like the comic we grew up with

Beacuse 2000 AD was 'all ages' back in 1977 and look what it gave us - gore, violence and plenty of bad attitude in the best traditions of pre-hiatus Action, with only liberal use of correction fluid and the odd Thargnote to provide any semblance of responsibility. And in 2020? Everything's cool and glossy and agreeably droll, but almost entirely devoid of any visceral thrills. How much better would that Dredd story have been with a panel showing one of the cadets suddenly being eaten alive? How much better The Gronk, with Gronks actually looking properly dead, like they did in The Gronk Affair all those years ago? Or Finder & Keeper with a devilish foe that looked more like some fiendish nightmare from Caballistics, Inc. instead of a cloven-hooved emo that actually said "Baaah!"?

I did love all the strips this week, honestly, because I can see they were all lavished with the enthusiasm and attention that creating thrills for the Galaxy's Greatest Comic engenders in even the humblest droid. And yet, as per Richard's quote above, I think TMO might have just lost sight for now of what made 2000 AD so great in the beginning.

However...

For all that I've said there, the best moment of the entire prog came right at the very end of the Rogue Trooper story, with the rescue of the cloned babies and the revelation that the mutant Nort troopers raised them as a family. It was a nice, and unexpectedly touching, conclusion. Maybe I've got it all wrong after all.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Dudley 27 February, 2020, 11:56:57 AM
Considering that companies such as Pixar have managed to cater to both children and their parents at the same time, is it completely inappropriate to reflect from our "embittered forty or fiftyish" perspective?

Not at all, just thinking that other perspectives could be encouraged as well. :)
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: broodblik 27 February, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
I am not against the idea of the regen prog, but I would rather have it as a separate special. The biggest problem as with the previous regen prog was the scheduling.
 
Hopefully this is a success and might see a release of such a publication.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Tjm86 27 February, 2020, 02:48:06 PM

Not at all, just thinking that other perspectives could be encouraged as well. :)

Okay, give you that one ....

Just leave off referring to us in the same vein as those Whonatics out there (although if anyone ever tries a female Dredd ... )
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: The Sherman Kid 27 February, 2020, 02:56:23 PM
Making your loyal readership pick up a kiddy comic (again!), is not a smart move.

Actually felt a tinge of embarrassment buying it, and then asked for £5 for the privilege, a tad annoyed. Having spent no time at all reading it a tad more annoyed. Felt like being taken for a sucker, playing on the 'completest' drive your readership has.

The stories were wafer thin, with no great thrills or intrigue to draw them in and the artwork the most basic (like children can't appreciate great artwork?).

Above all the logic of this escapes me.

What age group is this aimed at? I would say 6-9, I know my 10 year old nephew would find this childish, so even older is a dead cert. So how would that age group suddenly buy into the regular prog which is a completely different animal -Deadworld anyone? This isn't a 'transitional prog', not even close.

So what is the aim here? That years down the line they buy a prog themselves because the read one issue? Hardly likely (especially give the instantly forgettable stories that were included).

Bringing in new readership is sound policy but this is not the way to do it.

First time round I suggested a separate issue -but pointed out this is prohibitively expensive, fair enough. I had no idea this was going to be repeated -let alone 4 more times this year! I seriously doubt I will buy another similar issue and I have been with 2000ad since Prog 1 (like so many others).

A better option would be a bagged supplement (like the Meg) so parents could wean them on over time, perhaps and charge a little extra. But as it stands all it is doing is alienating existing readers with, what I imagine virtually no return.

This whole strategy needs a rethink




: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: TordelBack 27 February, 2020, 03:26:47 PM
But as it stands all it is doing is alienating existing readers with, what I imagine virtually no return.

See, you say that, but presumably Rebellion has numbers that say different. It's not like this is some isolated punt that Matt is taking, it's clearly part of an informed strategy.

FWIW I really don't agree that any of the art is 'basic' at any level, but I do have my doubts about its overall direction.  For one example, there is some very serious craft on display in Finder & Keeper (my favourite if the stories), boosted by Boswell's always-ace colour job, but the design choices seem odd to my ageing eyes. Our heroes are clearly young teenagers, but they are depicted as large-headed tweens, almost like hobbit-children; the setting is a construction project at a church in a cemetery, and its packed with detaiued backgrounds... but the specific details of the unsecured re-bar-free concrete* base, the hand-written signage, the post-office-style parcels of equipment, are all very soft and unconvincing: this is not what a construction site looks like, outside of Camberwick Green anyway.

Now I don't think for a minute that this is anything but a deliberate stylistic choice, carefully executed... I just wonder whether this is appealing to kids, who in my parental experience like their fiction to include (if not adults) children who are older than them, and settings that convey something of the real world. Maybe this is a Manga thing? If so, it's over my head.

I did like the story very much though, a nice bit of modernised folklore and a solid ending that answered the question that I'd had since the beginning - thought the design of the Grim itself was great and memorable, facial expressions were excellent, and the labour poured into the complex backgrounds was impressive.





*Let's not think about the appalling caustic burns Finder must have sustained wading about in liquid concrete in a pair of tights.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: IndigoPrime 27 February, 2020, 04:26:09 PM
*Let's not think about the appalling caustic burns Finder must have sustained wading about in liquid concrete in a pair of tights.
Mm. I mentioned that earlier. I find it surprising this bit made it through the edit, given the damage this would have caused the protagonist. (And with children’s comics, it’s important to ensure they don’t end up in situations like that that which could potentially be mimicked in the real world.)

I do get some of the other criticisms. I’ve already said I find the scheduling an issue; and there – as with a lot of what Rebellion is doing right now – is the “what next?” problem. But I’m glad the company is trying new things, rather than aping a lot of other publishers right now, and basically doing the same thing to diminishing returns, until inevitable closure.

Plus, again, I liked this issue anyway. I maintain that the general scripting vibe of this issue didn’t feel that far removed from a lot of 2000 AD’s classic era strips.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Dark Jimbo 27 February, 2020, 04:41:12 PM
I seriously doubt I will buy another similar issue...

Okay - problem solved then, no?
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: TordelBack 27 February, 2020, 08:00:58 PM
*Let's not think about the appalling caustic burns Finder must have sustained wading about in liquid concrete in a pair of tights.
Mm. I mentioned that earlier.

So you did! Apologies, it's my custom not to read the review threads until I've set my own thoughts down - usual exception bring the post directly above!
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: norton canes 28 February, 2020, 10:53:32 AM
Also, I know it's picky, but is concrete generally poured in measures that deep?
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: TordelBack 28 February, 2020, 11:06:06 AM
Short answer: sometimes. But never without a mountain of re-bar gridding. 

Elsewhere in the Prog, I enjoyed the Gronk story, script and art both.

The Dredd... I dunno, Chekov's Goggles annoyed me a bit, and the general lack of characterisation for anyone except the useless Tek, but the story waa fine and I liked the uniform tweaks and the lively art quite a bit. I'm not really sure why this needed to be a Cadet Dredd story, though. Would adult Dredd have done any different?
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Colin YNWA 28 February, 2020, 12:59:44 PM
Cadet Dredd works well (from the vast number we have!) when it is smarter in how it plays off the tension between Rico and Dredd. Well in terms of being its own strip rather than just Dredd with a smaller Joe in a white helmet.

Make it like Green's Grudge War!
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Mikey 28 February, 2020, 01:42:50 PM
Howdy!

Having found myself actually up to date with the prog for the first time in ages, thought it was about time to tell you what I thought. You lucky few.

Have to say the cover didn't really work for me - think I'd personally liked to have seen a MC1 background.

Cadet Dredd was grand, a decent one and done with great art. And as far as the crime goggles, I read it as a foreshadowing of Dredd's bionic peepers, especially with Cadet Joe expressing cynicism (natch) about such a crazy notion catching on.

Gronk was good fun but felt a bit long, and Rogue was another good one off not a million clicks off what you'd find in the prog in the eighties, apart from (to my mind) in the 80s Nu Earth didn't feel so clean. But I really like the art so don't get me wrong, I'd happily see more of this.

My favourite strip however was Finder & Keeper. Thought this was just great, I was actually fully engaged in what was going on and it just hit the mark perfectly.

More generally, though I agree that some of the art in the prog when we were younglings was perhaps a bit more gritty at times, it was also competing with a lot of other titles for attention. The more clean style of a lot of the art in this issue perhaps would appeal to would be younger readers in the same way now? I've no idea what it's up against, but there's no way it's 'inferior' to other strip work seen in the prog.

Keep it up Joko Tharg, your doing a good job.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: IndigoPrime 28 February, 2020, 02:30:59 PM
It’s odd to see so many gripes about the nature of the art, given that art has always been about prevailing trends. During the late 1970s and early 1980s, 2000 AD was printed in terrible paper, and had hand-inked black-and-white art. Clean lines are more common across the board now, whether reading the latest larks in The Phoenix, or the most terrifying horrors Image can hurl into your brain.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Richard 28 February, 2020, 05:15:51 PM
I have no problem with clean lines. That doesn't mean everything should look like a cartoon.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Magnetica 28 February, 2020, 06:32:15 PM
I have no problem with clean lines. That doesn't mean everything should look like a cartoon.

I agree.

Even in the newspaper era 2000AD featured art with very clean lines from the likes of Bolland and Kev O’Neill.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: DrJomster 28 February, 2020, 11:36:51 PM
This worked well for me. Some great art, particularly on Finder & Keeper. From the various posts above, the occasional all ages prog slipped into the main prog seems to be the way to go to explore building up to The Next Stage.... but what does that stage look like? A monthly all ages? A weekly? I hope this goes well and eventually ends in some sort of regular all ages prog, alongside the mighty grownup Tooth.

Great work, droids!
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: TordelBack 29 February, 2020, 09:03:34 AM
I have no problem with clean lines. That doesn't mean everything should look like a cartoon.

I think the quality of the art in this issue is uniformly great, my issue is also with the overall style, which feels like it's trying too hard to be 'for kids': too soft, too cheery. In my head an all-ages Prog dispenses with the blood-and-boobs and long-running plots and offers fresh punchy stories and modernised takes on characters. I don't know why it also has to dispense with a more challenging look.

An example is the Rogue Trooper. This is actually one of the cleverest Rogue stories in some time: it takes an established bit of GFD Rogue lore, the early experimental generation of GIs, and expands it into the team dynamic of Rogue and his buddies, throws in a bit of Venus Bluegenes and adds a happy ending.  It's a solid reworking and something new and a lot less bleak: it fits the brief well, and has far more substance than most Rogue one-offs.

Artwise I like the uniform tweaks (apart from Gunnar), the all-important Nort hardware is impressive, character designs are Ewins-strong and the storytelling is fast and clear. But somehow there's still an overall lool of this being for kids, rather than simply being a neat and accessible Rogue story.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: broodblik 29 February, 2020, 09:53:48 AM
The art was not bad per se but was all too similar and to cartoonist. I would have liked a more varied art in the prog.

For people who liked the Finder & Keeper story it will be back in the next regen prog.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Jacqusie 29 February, 2020, 10:29:39 AM

What age group is this aimed at? I would say 6-9,

Thats what I was thinking, with the cover proudly boasting an "All ages issue" which is clearly aimed at children and not teens (who are now teenagers at 10 years old). The regular prog is far more attractive for teenagers who are looking for something more sophisticated and cool. I certainly don't think it's for my generation and all ages beyond!

I do however agree that 2000AD needs to attract a younger audience, but just wish that they wouldn't land this in the middle of a run. A more sensible way not to hack readers off is to whack it in after all the stories have concluded just before a jumping on Prog. Or have them as specials to buy seperate.

Rebellion seem to be broadening their comic empire to the younger reader, which is ok, but it feels like it's all starting to render the regular prog a bit secondary at times and I'm pretty sure I'll not be wearing a 'Gums' T-shirt this summer... although I might on for a Minty Jinty one Thargy...                                                 




: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: paddykafka 29 February, 2020, 10:47:01 AM
Also, I know it's picky, but is concrete generally poured in measures that deep?

If you're in the Mafia body-disposal line of business, I would imagine so.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: judgeurko 29 February, 2020, 10:54:27 AM
I don't see the point of these Regened progs. If young readers enjoy it then next week they pic up the prog & it's completely different. They should just be specials or a separate prog running alongside the real one.
It's been discussed before but it's enormously (prohibitively so) expensive to create a brand new comic and distribute it to newsagents, if it was as simple as just printing it they'd do that, but it's not. You'll hit inertia with the distributers and the newsagents, and newsagents - let's remember - frequently charge for magazines to be located in prime spots - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/14/wh-smith-moves-telegraph-titles-to-magazine-section ) so I suspect (and I have zero inside knowledge) the hope is they can get these on the shelves in place of regular progs and build the momentum to have the readers/distributers/newsagents ask for more...

(It may be pure wishful thinking to hope we'd get a weekly regened, it could be the fact they're specials is what's making them ...uhm./.. special)
I see. But is there any evidence that these Regen progs increase readership in a significant sustained way? If younger readers pic up this prog do they go on to read it on a regular basis?
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: IndigoPrime 29 February, 2020, 12:56:09 PM
Thats what I was thinking, with the cover proudly boasting an "All ages issue" which is clearly aimed at children and not teens (who are now teenagers at 10 years old).
The Phoenix’s stated age range is 7–14, and I don’t think any of the Regened Prog was any more kiddified than what’s in that comic. Also, notably, there are plenty of ‘big two’ strips with similar vibes – even when you head to some of the heavy hitters. (Natch, this is not consistent.)

I do however agree that 2000AD needs to attract a younger audience, but just wish that they wouldn't land this in the middle of a run. A more sensible way not to hack readers off is to whack it in after all the stories have concluded just before a jumping on Prog. Or have them as specials to buy seperate.
I’ve here and elsewhere said the former. Specials would be fine as well, but it seems Rebellion wants to spend time testing the waters with its other brands (which makes sense – we will only get more comics if they find out what sells). So I’d hope if this becomes a regular thing, we get end-of-run/Regened/jumping-on.

Rebellion seem to be broadening their comic empire to the younger reader, which is ok, but it feels like it's all starting to render the regular prog a bit secondary at times
There are, what, 49 Progs per year? So now 45 out of 49 are still standard 2000 AD. The Meg is monthly. Most of the trades are still 2000 AD. Even a decent chunk of the Treasury archive is geared towards older readers. (I don’t recall how the stuff Rebellion owns was years back, but on reading The Beano I’d be cautious about my kid reading any pre-2016 Dennis the Menace. I’d therefore probably want to check archival IPC/Fleetway stuff first.)

and I'm pretty sure I'll not be wearing a 'Gums' T-shirt this summer...
:(

I really loved the Gums strip.

I see. But is there any evidence that these Regen progs increase readership in a significant sustained way? If younger readers pic up this prog do they go on to read it on a regular basis?
I’m not sure the first of those questions matters. If the worst-case scenario is these Regened Progs provide a single-issue bump in sales and don’t impact on 2000 AD negatively as a whole *and* create content that can later be collected and re-sold in trade form, that’s a net plus for the health of the overall portfolio. The only way this becomes a net negative is if enough old gits get furiously angry about reading stories designed for younger eyes four times a year, and throw their toys out of the pram in protest. (From what I’ve seen online, most such people don’t even read the Prog anymore anyway. And the vast majority of commentary on this forum has been much more nuanced and measured.)

As for regular reads, that’s the bit I still struggle with. When a kid loves Regened, what next? Some Treasury bits? OK, but what then? Same with Tammy/Misty/Cor. “There will be another issue next year” or even “in three months” is a tricky one. But then the minimum six-figure launch costs for a new title are a major spanner in the works.

My take on this is Rebellion as an organisation is rightly being cautious in a truly horrible print environment. The company has made some smart decisions regarding archive, and has been putting out content in a way that rewards comics fans. I mean, think about it: we’ve seen a big range of stuff, rather than just usual suspects; and money has been spent remastering pages for the Meg floppy, when Rebellion could have taken a much easier and cheaper route of just shoving in some more old 2000 AD reprint instead. And with the old brands, new strips have been commissioned, rather than Rebellion just scanning some old issues of Cor, Buster and Whizzer and Chips and charging a fiver for that instead.

So from a personal perspective, I’m happy to see where things go. I’d love in particular to see Cor/Buster go monthly. It’d be interesting to see a younger SF/fantasy title on the newsstands also (although 2000 AD branding might prove confusing next to the regular Prog). The worst thing would be for Rebellion to do nothing – and that’s precisely what the owners of all the old stuff were doing prior to Rebellion picking it up; and, arguably, it’s largely what 2000 AD itself had been doing for younger readers for a number of years as well.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: TordelBack 29 February, 2020, 01:37:54 PM
I think there has to be an aspect where quantity supports genuine experiment too: for example, Finder & Keeper did nothing for me the first time out, but this time it clicked, and if John & Leah are going to take it down the Folklore route, I'd be happy to see more. Similarly, while I'm not the target audience, Justine and In The Cold Dark in T&J hit the spot, along with Full Tilt Boogie from last year.

If these issues were one-offs, there'd be no opportunity to build a sustainably broad stable of successful All-Ages stories, but as The Plan ramps up I find I already have almost a full comics' worth of things I'd really like to read. It's not about my likes, but presumably I'm not alone.
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Woolly 29 February, 2020, 05:47:46 PM
Well, this ReGened prog was another hit for me  :thumbsup: (for my full review, read Mikey's post  :))
Waiting an extra week for the next installments of current thrills? Fine by me. I wait a month for the next episodes in the Meg, and that's fine too.

Yeah, maybe the art styles could have been a little more diverse, but all the stories still looked fantastic, and the storytelling on show works really well. Maybe throw some work Anthony William's way, he's be a good fit for this kind of thing.

I'd be more than happy to have one in four progs be a ReGened - (appreciate I'm probably alone there though, if this thread and farcebook are anything to go by!  :-\)
: Re: Prog 2170 - Regened (2020)
: Tiplodocus 10 March, 2020, 10:56:49 PM
I liked it. Not up to some of the recent heights but then we get frowned up issues that don't matchup to the heights.

I thought the goggles in DREDD were just a throwaway gag. He knows you're guilty, don't need no goggles.

I am 55.