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General Chat => Off Topic => : Tjm86 24 September, 2020, 08:01:05 PM

: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 24 September, 2020, 08:01:05 PM
I think that some of the discussions on the Battle Special thread got me thinking about this issue.  I get how complex it is but at the same time I also find aspects of it uncomfortable.

As near as I can tell, and I'm happy to be set straight, the term 'woke' seems to have been created, appropriated and misappropriated by several different groups.  Like many I'm not sure when I first became aware of it but the origin appears to have been inspired by the idea of an 'awakening' to issues of social importance.  From there it has morphed into a badge of consciousness, particularly among influencers in the social media sphere and now into an insult in the political and media spheres.

What I find difficult is the way in which our thoughts and attitudes are not just seen as possibly incorrect but more fundementally as aberrant.  Irrespective of our own experiences and understanding, if we do not think about things in the 'correct way' then we are castigated for those thoughts.

I'm not talking about hate speech here.  Rather about ideas that we might have grown up with but are no longer deemed acceptable.  Like all of those comedy shows and films that are now being withdrawn from circulation as the ideas they played with are now considered inapprorpriate (and yes, may well be so ...).

It's almost as if we have reached a point where we have realised that there is no point railing against 'the man' since we are powerless against 'him'.  Railing against each other though?  Anger and outrage at the petty injustices of the world?  Now that is something that is acceptable.  Bread and circuses and all that.  Too busy fighting each other to worry about what else is going on.

it feels a little like that line by Dredd from the Apocalypse War:  "The Citizens?  What makes you think they're interested?"  We're all fighting with each other over identity or sexuality or skin colour.  What fight really matters though?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Colin YNWA 24 September, 2020, 08:18:15 PM
Specifically on woke I just find it weird its used as a negative. As if its a bad thing to be made aware of important issues, to grow and progress in understanding and empathy is a bad thing. If a strip is seen as 'woke' well good. If someone thinks that's a bad thing maybe they should reflect on why that is, why increased awareness is a bad thing and what it is they are afraid of about being 'woken' (is that even a term in this context?).

I was a bit shit and ignorant in the past, I can hide behind the context of the times, the fact that very few of us knew any better and the cultural influences in my life renforced my ignorance, whatever. The fact that I've been made all 'woke' to that isn't  a bad thing and is something we should celebrate. Its not easy, but owning my own male white privalege, accepting it and trying to do something about it is making me a better person - I hope.

When I was younger I was apalled by the casual racism of previous generations and even in the 80s and 90s I realised that some of the telly I saw from the 60s and 70s (as an example) was pretty bad. I hope my son and daughter look at me when I'm older as someone - who no doubt will still have faults, but has at least tried to progess and grow up with the world.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 24 September, 2020, 08:23:31 PM
My problem with the term "woke" is that it seems to be used to polarize opinion in what could otherwise be a thoughtful discussion or debate.

So, perhaps someone is saying they were pleased to see a minority represented in a medium where they're not often represented. Someone else says it's just pandering to a woke sensibility. Claws out! Missiles launched! Ding ding - round one!

Recently (if you want to take a different tack) what seemed like openers to an interesting debate about modern transgenderism were shouted down with what seemed like banner slogans as opposed to reasoned arguments. Like "Transgender women are women". Are they? What are non-transgender women, then? It's a fucking fascinating point for debate because it impinges on things like women's refuges. But it's not a debate at all if people just shout seemingly nonsensical slogans at one another and refuse to budge.

I managed to follow the argument quite far for gender being a choice, but now sex as well? Biologists sex animals. Aren't humans animals? Am I allowed to be confused by all of this redefinition of terms? Or will I be cancelled?

Well, we needn't worry too much - Trump is fomenting a civil war and my kind of "hey, can't we just talk it through" approach won't last long against either side. It feels like the end of days - with working class blacks being persuaded to take up arms against working class white militias, while all the rich folk sell them guns!

Their solutions are our problems
They put up the wall
On each side time and prime us
And make sure we get fuck all
They play their games of power
They mark and cut the pack
They deal us to the bottom
But what do they put back?


Suspect Device, Stiff Little Fingers (https://youtu.be/sKsN5cj9ehs)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 24 September, 2020, 08:50:28 PM
What are non-transgender women, then?

Women. That part is not complicated.

The issues you raise are real, and complex, but the starting point for addressing them has to be universal Human Rights.  If transgender people don't have the same rights in society as everyone else, there's no point in any sort of nuanced debate.  There are just as many - or as few - transgender predators and monsters as there are cis, hetero, gay, white, black etc etc. ones, and we don't restrict their rights (mostly,  anymore), we just deal with the criminals best we can.

It's hard for us oldies to change. We can sort all this important-but-fiddly stuff out,  the sport issue, the refuge and medical issues, but first we need to start with the basics, and that's a level playing field that listens to transgender people and accepts transwomen as women and transmen as men.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 24 September, 2020, 09:01:57 PM
I can't quite go that far.

One probably wouldn't argue (for example) that anyone gets to become any racial identity just because they identify strongly with it or even consider themselves to be it. Why is it different for sex? (I'm deliberately not using gender, because it seems the argument is being taken further.)

And all I'm doing is talking about categories - not human rights. I wouldn't argue that because I see a difference in definition between someone born with a sex compared with someone who adopts a sex that either party should have fewer rights.

Just on logic: there are differences - differences in physicality. To deny them seems like doublethink.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 24 September, 2020, 09:03:41 PM
I have to be honest, I was raised at a boarding school and my early working years were in the armed forces at a time when attitudes to women leave a lot to be desired.  Not to mention the influence that these and other factors have on my perspective on an individual's sexual preference (although if I'm honest I've come to understand the difference between some of these choices and personal experience).

I find myself striving to adhere to the maxim "the unexamined life is not worth living".  At the same time though this is not always easy.  I have colleagues who have what they consider reasonable issues around the Transgender debate.  I also find myself querying scientific evidence on the ways in which biological gender is implicated in medical conditions.  So whilst I appreciate that it is appropriate to recognise an individual's right to specify their gender, I wonder at the consequences of this.  If they are classified officially as their gender of preference rather than their biological gender, could that lead to misdiagnosis with potentially lethal consequences?

So I wonder if it is not just a case of the implications for those of a specially biologically originated gender (ouch, tortuous) but also for those who have made a conscious choice.  Perhaps the solution is to insist that everyone decides their gender at a specific age.  Then each individual has two gender classifications: their biological gender at birth and their preferred gender.  For most social purposes their preferred gender is used but when medical treatment is necessary it is their birth biological gender that is used.  Since this applies to everyone, those who have transitioned are treated equally with others.

There are quite a few folks around here for whom this is far from an abstract issue.  That being the case it would be appropriate to approach this matter sensitively.

I suppose on top of this there is the question of how aware we are of our biases.  Are we willing to admit our flaws and work on them?  Are they 'biases' or just an incompatibility with current cultural mores?  This is part of the problem isn't it?  The lack of rational debate is leading to polarisation and the fomenting of civil or even uncivil war.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 24 September, 2020, 09:10:41 PM
There are quite a few folks around here for whom this is far from an abstract issue.  That being the case it would be appropriate to approach this matter sensitively.

I hope I'm doing that - I don't want to cause offence to anyone*.


*Special exemptions for Trump, Cummings and his puppet Boris.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 24 September, 2020, 09:45:27 PM
And all I'm doing is talking about categories - not human rights. I wouldn't argue that because I see a difference in definition between someone born with a sex compared with someone who adopts a sex that either party should have fewer rights.

Just on logic: there are differences - differences in physicality. To deny them seems like doublethink.

Of course there are differences in biology,  and of course you wouldn't go so far as to discriminate on rights; you're a reasonable, highly intelligent, decent person. The problem is that many others aren't, and that's why we need to start with the higher level position of simply accepting the basic principles of transgender rights, and once that's in place we can - together - dig down into how the implications play out.

Otherwise we're being like oh-so reasonable plantation owners claiming we accept the humanity of slaves but objecting to abolition because we can't see how the regional economy will survive and how former slaves will possibly support themselves and their families. Those are second-level problems: we have to make the initial leap and accept that people's rights of self-determination already exist because they are humans, and we don't get to make any decision that limits that.

It's precisely because we face the uncomfortable practical realities of our collapsing world that we have to assert universal principles that can't be denied.

Well, that's my perspective anyway.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 25 September, 2020, 01:21:17 AM

I think that human rights, and human responsibilities, should be our twin foundations upon which we build everything else. Human first, everything else is negotiable.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 25 September, 2020, 03:15:11 AM
Well, that's my perspective anyway.

I expect I'm doing that focusing on trees thing which is leaving the woods out of my grasp.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Andy B 25 September, 2020, 04:23:20 AM
Specifically on woke I just find it weird its used as a negative.

I think there’s been an evolution here. When I first started noticing the term, it was applied to people who adopted extreme positions, to whom more or less everything involving minorities is ‘troubling’ or ‘problematic’. Only black writers should write black characters, only gay actors should play gay characters, wearing a kimono is ‘cultural appropriation’: that sort of thing. Such people were perceived by some as primarily interested in demonstrating to the world how much more enlightened and unprejudiced they were than you, over actually caring about true equality. So, “woke” was used as a negative, to describe an allegedly attention-seeking person who patronizes minorities.

Trouble is, it was then jumped on by the right as a great word to use to disparage any decent opinion, and that’s where we are today.

As a general rule, if somebody nowadays complains that something is “woke”, I feel I can safely ignore them.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Andy B 25 September, 2020, 05:11:56 AM
Trouble is, it was then jumped on by the right as a great word to use to disparage any decent opinion, and that’s where we are today.

Thinking about it, this is similar to what happened to “politically correct”. Correct is a good thing to be! But now tr*mp can boast to his cult that he isn’t politically correct, and get a round of baying applause: it’s an easy way for him to say “it’s OK to be racist again!”, without actually saying it.

For this and for ‘woke’, I can’t help blaming the people who go too far in their enthusiasm to denounce pretty much everything as offensive: they give the Right a stick to beat us with, and, by looking ridiculous to normal people, devalue all criticism of actual racists, homophobes, transphobes and so on, giving them a free pass.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 25 September, 2020, 09:49:08 AM
For this and for ‘woke’, I can’t help blaming the people who go too far in their enthusiasm to denounce pretty much everything as offensive

The problem with that is that it's a very moveable line. There are plenty of people who think complaining about misgendering a trans person is "being too sensitive".

I mean, you could draw the line as being: when the person being offended has the 'right' to be offended then it's OK for them to say something (ie: it's gay person objecting to a derogatory term for gay people or it's a transgender person objecting to being misgendered) but I've never met one trans person who thinks misgendering is OK — and I've done it. Unintentionally, but I still did it.* Do I, as a white man, have to sit quiet while racists spout off because only people of colour have the right to be offended by it? I'd argue not.

So, yeah. No easy answers. But, honestly, if it's a line between offending people and not offending people then I don't really have a problem with erring on the side of not offending people. The key distinction here (and I'm sort of fumbling towards a conclusion as I go along, so forgive the rambling post) is between what people are and what they do. Some trans people, gay people, people of colour, are shitheads — white men don't have an absolute monopoly on that. And it's fine to tell them they're shitheads if they're being shitheads… but they're not shitheads because they're gay/trans/POC, they're just shitheads irrespective of that.

I have no idea if any of that makes a lick of sense.

*It's OK for this to be a process. I struggled with the whole transgender thing for a long time, partly because it's something so unaligned with my own experiences that I found it difficult to relate, and partly because the first transgender person I had more than passing contact with was a childhood friend who I'd known as male for thirty-plus years… and it's really difficult to make that adjustment in your own head, but, eventually, I realised that just because it's difficult, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to do better. My problem, not theirs.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Barrington Boots 25 September, 2020, 10:21:02 AM
Some really good points made here, this is something I've been thinking about a fair bit.

I'm pretty sure the term itself originated in the US, as I can remember it being used there a while before I heard it being thrown around in the UK, to refer to being aware of issues with racial justice. I'm not sure if it's now morphed in the same way over there as it's generally used in the UK as a general term of derogative sneeriness for left-wing / liberal / social awareness / PC by the Daily Mail and it's ilk.

A bit like the term 'SJW' I'm appalled that a deroagtory term exists for someone who'd express what I consider to be decent opions like a desire for equality. Who on earth thinks that being pro-social justice is a bad thing? That's basically setting yourself up as saying "I hate social justice and love inequality". It reminds me of a picture I saw of a person with a sign saying 'I'm Anti-Antifa'. There's a quicker way to make that statement...
At the root though I think it's just an indicator of someone being scared of a change of status quo. People like to subsconsciously rewrite the narrative to always protray themselves as the good guy - I know someone who never gives money to the homeless, for example, because he thinks they've all got secret houses and stashes of weath gained from duping unwitting members of the public. He can't have a narrative where he is witholding money from people who are literally dying in gutters, so instead now he's the good and clever one because he's avoiding their evil and cunning tricks. We're living in a time of great social upheaval and a lot of ideas for people like this guy are being challenged, and they don't want to be the ones in the wrong so it must be us lefties with our 'woke' agenda. I really don't understand why people would complain about such stuff like a dance routine highlighting racial injustice, or a public figure urging us all to be more compassionate, or poor children not starving to death, but if I've learned one thing in my life it's that I really don't understand people at all.

What hasn't helped, just IMO, is that this upswell of desire for social change has seen a lot of corporate gestures and box ticking that dilutes the issues at hand somewhat and makes it easier for serious problems to be lumped in with small ones as PC nonsense by people. For example: I read that Aliens now carries a warning because Jeanette Goldstein portrays a hispanic character when she herself isn't hispanic (and had to apply skin bronzer for the part). My first reaction was that that was over the top. But you have to check yourself and realise that as a white middle class male this wasn't done for me - that I wasn't the one with the potential to be offended here. It's not hurting me, and if it's helping redress the hurt that someone else has been enduring then I'm for it. Miss that step though and suddenly something like BLM suddenly looks like a 1984 style movement, with a leftie Big Brother banning and changing all the stuff you like and policing what you can say and think.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Barrington Boots 25 September, 2020, 10:25:51 AM
*It's OK for this to be a process. I struggled with the whole transgender thing for a long time, partly because it's something so unaligned with my own experiences that I found it difficult to relate, and partly because the first transgender person I had more than passing contact with was a childhood friend who I'd known as male for thirty-plus years… and it's really difficult to make that adjustment in your own head, but, eventually, I realised that just because it's difficult, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to do better. My problem, not theirs.

Wise words Jim and I really think this is the key, if everyone took this attitude then I suspect we'd be enduring a lot less negativity right now.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Colin YNWA 25 September, 2020, 10:38:24 AM
*It's OK for this to be a process. I struggled with the whole transgender thing for a long time, partly because it's something so unaligned with my own experiences that I found it difficult to relate, and partly because the first transgender person I had more than passing contact with was a childhood friend who I'd known as male for thirty-plus years… and it's really difficult to make that adjustment in your own head, but, eventually, I realised that just because it's difficult, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to do better. My problem, not theirs.

Wise words Jim and I really think this is the key, if everyone took this attitude then I suspect we'd be enduring a lot less negativity right now.

Yeah its a learning excerise and we will all make mistakes I don't doubt. The thing that seperates folks will be whether they are okay to except your mistakes, apologise and learn from them, or they are afraid to do so and bite back.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 25 September, 2020, 10:44:07 AM
It is a process, and not an easy one. While us old farts hang around being important, we need to accept that our feelings are largely irrelevant: a lot of what is criticised as 'woke' is just others dealing better with change than us.

Anecdote: My eldest is 14, one of his friends since day one of primary school recently announced that they were a boy, and changed their name and pronouns accordingly. It's still weird for the missus and myself, having known him and his parents for a decade, since he was knee-high wearing party dresses and ribbons, but it took our kids about 10 minutes to adjust (helped greatly by the fact that the school just rolled in behind it). Our  confusion matters not one jot. In my own lifetime I went from thinking being called gay in the playground was the worst and most pitiable thing imaginable, to having a gay Best Man. Things change, thank feck, but it's seldom easy for ageing bastards to accept, and our geriatric poison can easily get passed on.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Rately 25 September, 2020, 11:09:27 AM
Seeing people get so worked up, and annoyed at someone else trying to be the best they can be, trying to make themselves happy is bizarre. Sometimes it is just downright puzzling that we have people in the world who always need to vent their spleens, regularly, and unproductively by trying to control other people.

Live and let live. If you are happy with your lot, you should be happy when someone else finds something that makes them feel like they have found their own place in an increasingly bizarre, fractious world.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 25 September, 2020, 11:11:29 AM
I’m with team TordelBack and Cambell on this. Trans is not something I fully understand; I find it hard to wrap my head around because it’s so far from my experience and also so far from even my extended set of acquaintances. Except a couple of people I know have in recent years ‘come out’ as trans. It was surprising. It was also heartbreaking that one of them had the shittest possible time and lost almost everything.

My take on this is to be supportive, listen and learn. When I don’t understand Thing X or Thing Y, I ask. If I still feel a bit weird about it, that is—as Jim said—entirely my fucking problem, not theirs. And all the extremism we hear about is symptomatic of an increasingly intolerant society we would be good to push back against. Hell, we’re already seeing towns in Poland declare themselves LGBT-free zones. We cannot be complacent. We have long made the mistake that acceptance and liberalism were a one-way street. They are not. They are things we must continually fight for—now, more than any time in recent history.

Also, on the kids side of thing, it’s notable how much adults fuck them up and teach them to be intolerant. Stick a bunch of kids of random gender and ethnicity in a room and they’ll almost certainly just start playing together. There might be curiosity about things like different hair, but it’s unlikely there will be malice. That comes later when they’ve been screwed up by their guardians/friends/society.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 25 September, 2020, 11:29:24 AM
Generally, the older generations are all coralled in Facebook and twitter, the rest of the internet skews young. I tend to dismiss terms like woke out of hand. It's just online yoofspeak, not to be used by sensible adults and certainly not meant to be said out loud, unless ironically. However, much like its sjw and pc brigade ancestors, it's used by pricks to try to discredit and silence people who tell pricks to stop being pricks. The sentiment being "I have freedom of speech so you have to shut up!".

The whole transgender thing is just another item on the long list of things I don't really understand but just accept. Like quantum physics, or the Kardashians. It's not hurting anyone*, so why get worked up about it.

Live and let live.
^Basically this^

What find even harder to understand, is why the likes of Linehan and Rowling, whose audiences I would assume skew liberal/progressive, are willing to sacrifice their reputations and credibility to knock a minority down a peg?

There are of course some sticking points. World Rugby recently banned trans-women from competing in Woman's rugby.  Can there be a balance between inclusivity and safety of competitors? Like I said, I don't understand it well enough to comment.

*Quantum physics is probably a bad example, it hurts my brain. Also there's a trend of new age hacks slapping the word "quantum" on their snake oil, but I'll find somewhere else to grind that axe.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: judgeurko 25 September, 2020, 11:39:21 AM
Like all of those comedy shows and films that are now being withdrawn from circulation as the ideas they played with are now considered inapprorpriate (and yes, may well be so ...).
What comedy shows & films have been withdrawn from circulation? I have noticed that some streaming services temporarily withdrew some films & shows then reinstated them with content warnings, e.g. Fawlty Towers & Gone With the Wind. & even if there are examples of some shows being withdrawn from certain streaming services they are still available to purchase as physical media. If people really want to watch Love Thy Neighbour for example they can buy the dvd.

I think the term 'woke' has replaced the term 'PC' & is equally nonsensical. It appears to be used mainly by those who hold strong racial &/gender prejudices as an attack for having minority groups & issues represented in what have been thought of as traditionally white male domains, sci-fi & superhero media/entertainment for example. To be honest I cannot take seriously anyone who uses the term 'woke' or 'SJW' as a critique of a tv show or film.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Rately 25 September, 2020, 11:46:16 AM
To be honest I cannot take seriously anyone who uses the term 'woke' or 'SJW' as a critique of a tv show or film.

Amen, Brother.

Also, i find it strange that the biggest "snowflakes", a word i detest, are generally those people who use it as an insult.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 25 September, 2020, 12:01:37 PM
To be honest I cannot take seriously anyone who uses the term 'woke' or 'SJW' as a critique of a tv show or film.

Amen, Brother.

Also, i find it strange that the biggest "snowflakes", a word i detest, are generally those people who use it as an insult.

Case in point - Self-proclaimed 'street fighter' Steve Bannon leaving the LBC studios on the verge of tears after some uncomfortable questions.

It is hard to adapt - It really doesn't come naturally to me to refer to one person as 'they' (apart from in the sense of a random stranger whose identity I don't know), but my friend's partner is a 'they' as is one of my neighbours who I chat to regularly.  Also, I haven't worked out if I'm allowed to use the word 'queer', or is it, like the n-word, only inoffensive when used by the people it was traditionally used to insult?  Honestly, I don't know - if you can put me straight (no pun intended) on it I'll be grateful.

It's my problem, not theirs, though, is the point - I've lived too long in a conservative Catholic country, and always longed for change. Now that it's here, I'm not quite used to it.  I hope these things come way more naturally to the younger folks. 

I did find it a little bit odd that my bisexual colleauge found it offensive that the marriage equality referendum was reductively referred to as the 'gay marriage referendum' -  I mean, it was voted through in a landslide, so clearly most people are accepting of the lifestyle, and I think that using terms like 'gay' that most people understand helped those people to, well, understand it. 
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: wedgeski 25 September, 2020, 12:01:43 PM
Anecdote: My eldest is 14, one of his friends since day one of primary school recently announced that they were a boy, and changed their name and pronouns accordingly. It's still weird for the missus and myself, having known him and his parents for a decade, since he was knee-high wearing party dresses and ribbons, but it took our kids about 10 minutes to adjust (helped greatly by the fact that the school just rolled in behind it). Our  confusion matters not one jot. In my own lifetime I went from thinking being called gay in the playground was the worst and most pitiable thing imaginable, to having a gay Best Man. Things change, thank feck, but it's seldom easy for ageing bastards to accept, and our geriatric poison can easily get passed on.
Thanks for this, it improved my day greatly.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: judgeurko 25 September, 2020, 12:51:38 PM
An interesting article on tensions in the feminist movement over trans rights.

https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times (https://www.newstatesman.com/international/2020/09/judith-butler-culture-wars-jk-rowling-and-living-anti-intellectual-times)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: judgeurko 25 September, 2020, 12:56:18 PM
To be honest I cannot take seriously anyone who uses the term 'woke' or 'SJW' as a critique of a tv show or film.

Amen, Brother.

Also, i find it strange that the biggest "snowflakes", a word i detest, are generally those people who use it as an insult.

Case in point - Self-proclaimed 'street fighter' Steve Bannon leaving the LBC studios on the verge of tears after some uncomfortable questions.

It is hard to adapt - It really doesn't come naturally to me to refer to one person as 'they' (apart from in the sense of a random stranger whose identity I don't know), but my friend's partner is a 'they' as is one of my neighbours who I chat to regularly.  Also, I haven't worked out if I'm allowed to use the word 'queer', or is it, like the n-word, only inoffensive when used by the people it was traditionally used to insult?  Honestly, I don't know - if you can put me straight (no pun intended) on it I'll be grateful.

It's my problem, not theirs, though, is the point - I've lived too long in a conservative Catholic country, and always longed for change. Now that it's here, I'm not quite used to it.  I hope these things come way more naturally to the younger folks. 

I did find it a little bit odd that my bisexual colleauge found it offensive that the marriage equality referendum was reductively referred to as the 'gay marriage referendum' -  I mean, it was voted through in a landslide, so clearly most people are accepting of the lifestyle, and I think that using terms like 'gay' that most people understand helped those people to, well, understand it.



I think those who identify as Bi are often sidelined. When some women who have dated men then date another women it is often seen by some gay women as them 'coming out'. When men identify as Bi is can be seen as just a phase or a way to say that they are gay that is maybe more acceptable to their straight family members & friends.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 25 September, 2020, 01:05:59 PM
Yeah, fair enough. Just thinking of the marriage referendum though, 'gay' is what most people understand in that context - it didn't really affect bi people who settled down with a member of the opposite sex. And I've known quite a few bi people like that.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 25 September, 2020, 02:05:58 PM
I'm pretty sure the term itself originated in the US

I always assumed it was a reference to The Matrix and "waking up" to see the way the world really is by taking the red pill.

A bit like the term 'SJW' I'm appalled that a deroagtory term exists for someone who'd express what I consider to be decent opions like a desire for equality. Who on earth thinks that being pro-social justice is a bad thing? That's basically setting yourself up as saying "I hate social justice and love inequality". It reminds me of a picture I saw of a person with a sign saying 'I'm Anti-Antifa'. There's a quicker way to make that statement...

I fear you have made the classic error of taking a far-right talking point in good faith.  It doesn't actually make any objective sense to you, a person on the left, because you aren't the intended target.
You know how years ago, 'pwn' was in use online after someone mis-spelled 'own' and it just sort of stuck as a slang term?  Now imagine the same scenario with 'SJW' but assume the original word was 'JEW' and you'll understand why there are so many complaints from the far and alt-right about how "SJWs run the media" and want to undermine traditional norms by imposing political correctness on everyone. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory)
SJW is an antisemitic dog-whistle and it's meant to cause confusion among non-fascists.  While we argue about how social justice is good actually, the alt-right are continuing their conversation about what intellectual elites funded by George Soros are doing to traditional values.

So too with Antifa, which has been retooled solely as a name rather than a statement of intent.  They aren't "anti-fascists", they're just "Antifa", the barbarians at the gates of civilised society who want to destroy it.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 25 September, 2020, 02:29:07 PM
I just remembered a bit in Jon Ronson’s fabulous book, ‘Them’. He meets with David Icke’s PA, who was in the midst of negotiations to get Icke into Canada. The Canadians were reluctant to grant Icke a visa on the grounds that the “space lizards” Icke claimed were running the world, was a dog whistle code for The Jewish Illuminati* Conspiracy. The Canucks considered Icke’s whole schtick to be antisemitic hate speech and didn’t want him spreading such throughout the great white north.

David Icke’s long suffering PA had to try to convince the Canadian officials that David Icke genuinely believed in Space Lizards.

*Illuminati came up in predictive text. Spooky
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 25 September, 2020, 02:41:25 PM
David Icke’s long suffering PA had to try to convince the Canadian officials that David Icke genuinely believed in Space Lizards.

I had this argument with someone recently — "No, no… he's not antisemitic, he really does believe they're Space Lizards."

Yes, Space Lizards who also happen to overlay directly onto antisemitic tropes of a Jewish world-controlling conspiracy. The Nazis claimed that the Jews weren't human, too.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Rately 25 September, 2020, 02:44:59 PM
I just remembered a bit in Jon Ronson’s fabulous book, ‘Them’. He meets with David Icke’s PA, who was in the midst of negotiations to get Icke into Canada. The Canadians were reluctant to grant Icke a visa on the grounds that the “space lizards” Icke claimed were running the world, was a dog whistle code for The Jewish Illuminati* Conspiracy. The Canucks considered Icke’s whole schtick to be antisemitic hate speech and didn’t want him spreading such throughout the great white north.

David Icke’s long suffering PA had to try to convince the Canadian officials that David Icke genuinely believed in Space Lizards.

*Illuminati came up in predictive text. Spooky

Such an interesting book and documentary.

Icke is such a bizarre, unbelievable character that i sometimes wonder if it is all an intentional, profitable grift, or he really is mentally ill. That appearance on Wogan would be enough to have most people committed, although it doesn't say much for us as a society, that rather than reach out to help someone they were instead slaughtered in the press.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 25 September, 2020, 04:29:44 PM
I just remembered a bit in Jon Ronson’s fabulous book, ‘Them’. He meets with David Icke’s PA, who was in the midst of negotiations to get Icke into Canada. The Canadians were reluctant to grant Icke a visa on the grounds that the “space lizards” Icke claimed were running the world, was a dog whistle code for The Jewish Illuminati* Conspiracy. The Canucks considered Icke’s whole schtick to be antisemitic hate speech and didn’t want him spreading such throughout the great white north.

David Icke’s long suffering PA had to try to convince the Canadian officials that David Icke genuinely believed in Space Lizards.

*Illuminati came up in predictive text. Spooky

Such an interesting book and documentary.

Icke is such a bizarre, unbelievable character that i sometimes wonder if it is all an intentional, profitable grift, or he really is mentally ill. That appearance on Wogan would be enough to have most people committed, although it doesn't say much for us as a society, that rather than reach out to help someone they were instead slaughtered in the press.



It's a bit of a tightrope, though.  My friend's ex-housemate has severe mental problems, manifesting themselves in delusions of grandeur (he's a terrible painter and singer who thinks he's a prodigy), and conspiracy-fuelled racism.  You might have seen him on David Baddiel's holocaust documentary earlier this year, accusing Jews of eating babies and singing a song about how Auschwitz was great.  It's hard to feel sorry for the guy, and I don't feel too bad about laughing at him. 

A certain conman-turned-politician too is clearly mentally ill, spouting crazy conspiracies and referring to his 'own great and unmatched wisdom'.  Again, I don't feel a lot of sympathy, and wish the world would just leave him in the dust (even as he shapes the future for decades to come, and hastens global catastrophe).

I saw Icke talk once in Trinity College; I was a bit disappointed that he never once mentioned the lizard elite - it was all Illuminati this and Illuminati that.  You'd think the fact that the Science Fiction Society organised his lecture would have alerted him to how seriously people took him.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 25 September, 2020, 04:49:14 PM
So too with Antifa, which has been retooled solely as a name rather than a statement of intent.  They aren't "anti-fascists", they're just "Antifa", the barbarians at the gates of civilised society who want to destroy it.

Even the way it's pronounced An-TEE-fah, so instead of obviously being anti- anything in particular  it sounds more like some sinister foreign foodstuff.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Richard 25 September, 2020, 05:18:52 PM
What I find even harder to understand, is why the likes of ... Rowling, whose audiences I would assume skew liberal/progressive, are willing to sacrifice their reputations and credibility to knock a minority down a peg?

I don't think Rowling was trying to knock anybody down. She was only saying, in a measured and respectful manner,  that women (other than trans-women) should have been consulted before allowing trans-women to share their public toilets. She then got shouted down by lots of people who said that she must be anti-trans and evil. Weird that what women think only matters if they became women post-birth.

You don't have to agree with her. But to write her off as some kind of far-right bigot because she isn't "woke" enough for you is part of the problem -- it divides people into camps and polarises what passes for debate, instead of engaging with different opinions and arguing about them. It's an ideological purity test, and if you don't pass then your opinion doesn't matter and no-one has to consider your point of view because you're cancelled. It's just another kind of intolerance.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 25 September, 2020, 05:33:50 PM
You don't have to agree with her. But to write her off as some kind of far-right bigot because she isn't "woke" enough for you is part of the problem

No. Sorry, this is nonsense. Rowling's TERF-ery is longstanding and far-reaching — she's even linked to an online store selling anti-trans rights merchandise recently.  (https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2020/09/j-k-rowling-plugs-disgusting-anti-trans-online-store-14-million-twitter-followers/?fbclid=IwAR3crZ8YkiBOpocVUnhsq4AVIRUUIVSls2jof4id0DGdSzuBiTEGeaWCJiE#.X2xUkkQAqLI.facebook)

(Incidentally, the whole women's toilet argument is ridiculous. Trans women can already use women's toilets. The idea that men will suddenly starting donning frocks and a bit of slap so they can rape women in pub toilets is farcical, given that historically men have never had much trouble raping women if they felt like it.)

Note also her choice of pseudonym — Robert Galbraith was famously an adovocate of "gay conversion therapy". That's not an accident. There is literally no way her lawyers, or her agent's lawyers, didn't check the provenance of the name extensively and she could easily have chosen another.

For Christ's sake, her latest Galbraith book is about a psychopath who dresses up as a woman so he can murder women.

And no one is "cancelling" her. No one has stopped publishing her books. No one has prevented her from pushing her (multiple) anti-trans messages on social media. She hasn't found herself unable to give interviews in national newspapers.

All that's happened is that she's used her considerable reach to spread a very ugly message and a portion of her audience has found that unacceptable and chosen to stop supporting her. As is their unquestionable right.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Richard 25 September, 2020, 06:09:49 PM
Oh dear, I didn't know about the website she endorsed or who the other Robert Galbraith was. I only knew about the statement she released at the time. That does rather undermine my point a bit!
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 25 September, 2020, 07:08:23 PM
There's this debate at the core which is about what's seen as biological males starting to take control of feminism - that's clearly a heated debate. But is it wrong to debate it? Is it "far right" to want to defend a space that's been fought long and hard for (is being fought for) against what's seen from within as a radical takeover?

The web site that Rowling linked to is on one side of that debate. You can decry it as anti-trans, but its supporters would say it's pro-feminism. The actual t-shirt she was saying she liked just says "This witch won't burn!", which isn't (in and of itself) anti-trans.

---

For the pen name, she says she got if from JFK and an Ella Galbraith. The conversion therapy guy's surname is actually "Heath".

Perhaps people are seeing links because it fits their narrative?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: judgeurko 25 September, 2020, 07:11:14 PM
There's this debate at the core which is about what's seen as biological males starting to take control of feminism - that's clearly a heated debate. But is it wrong to debate it? Is it "far right" to want to defend a space that's been fought long and hard for (is being fought for) against what's seen from within as a radical takeover?

The web site that Rowling linked to is on one side of that debate. You can decry it as anti-trans, but its supporters would say it's pro-feminism. The actual t-shirt she was saying she liked just says "This witch won't burn!", which isn't (in and of itself) anti-trans.

---

For the pen name, she says she got if from JFK and an Ella Galbraith. The conversion therapy guy's surname is actually "Heath".

Perhaps people are seeing links because it fits their narrative?
But there is no radical takeover.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 25 September, 2020, 07:27:05 PM
But there is no radical takeover.

That's an opinion from one side of the argument.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 25 September, 2020, 07:30:45 PM
Perhaps people are seeing links because it fits their narrative?

For Christ's sake, her latest Galbraith book is about a psychopath who dresses up as a woman so he can murder women.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 25 September, 2020, 07:35:32 PM
You can decry it as anti-trans, but its supporters would say it's pro-feminism.

Jesus. Did you look at some of that merchandise? “Trans women are men”…? “Sorry about your dick, bro”…?

It is anti-trans. There’s no “but both sides” there.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Leigh S 25 September, 2020, 07:36:05 PM
Explain the counter argument that makes  "Trans Women are Women" radical in a way that isnt offensive to men or transwomen though?  The argument would seem to be that non-trans men would cynically abuse the ability to access womens spaces or that trans women should be excluded as "not really women".  It's a presumption that men or trans-women are dangerous and cannot be trusted.  It has a whiff of "if we start letting blacks sit next to us on Public Transport".  TThat isnt to dismiss the fact some women might find it uncomfortable to perceive a male presence in an all female space, but if we go down the route of allowing for other peoples worst fears to govern other peoples Rights, then what alternative do you propose for Trans people?

I mean I am uncomfortable sharing a bathroom with anyone, so should my discomfort mean we remove all multi occupancy toilets from public spaces?  I demand it I tell you!


Or in shorthand, I'm with Tordelback and Jim on all points.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 25 September, 2020, 07:46:13 PM
Flip side of the TERF argument on women’s toilets is that if everyone has to use the toilet/changing room/whatever that corresponds with their assigned gender at birth, then they have no problem showering after the gym, or going for a pee, with these fantastic specimens…

(https://i.imgur.com/7s40WnK.jpg)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 25 September, 2020, 08:43:40 PM
The bathroom argument was used against black people in the US too, long after 'equality' was accepted in law. I mean, a person likes to feel at ease in the toilet, and could you really if one of them was in there with you?

https://progressive.org/op-eds/long-ugly-history-bathroom-segregation/

I really do sympathise with women's concerns about the Ladies as safe, supportive spaces (although my experiences as a public & nightclub toilet cleaner wouldn't support the idea that many are), but it does come down to discriminating against a whole group because of the potential malfeasance of a few. Perhaps the whole public bathroom model just needs to change, as it did in the US.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 25 September, 2020, 09:20:58 PM
Not really germane to this discussion, but I developed a theory in my first few years of gainful employment that most misogyny could probably be traced back to someone who used to have a job cleaning a nightclub's female toilets on a Sunday morning.

There's this debate at the core which is about what's seen as biological males starting to take control of feminism

Biological essentialism is a conservative talking point, so you can see why this might make TERFs a fringe group within any left-leaning movement.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 25 September, 2020, 09:24:27 PM
Maybe it was mentioned earlier in the thread, and forgive my naivete, but what's TERF?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 25 September, 2020, 10:07:26 PM
Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 25 September, 2020, 10:52:06 PM
You can decry it as anti-trans, but its supporters would say it's pro-feminism.

Jesus. Did you look at some of that merchandise? “Trans women are men”…? “Sorry about your dick, bro”…?

It is anti-trans. There’s no “but both sides” there.

I didn't deeply search the web-site, no - just looked at the front page. Those are clearly anti-trans messages.

I'm going to be a bit of a Devil's Advocate and point out that Rowling's t-shirt wasn't, and I don't know how much of a deep dive she did.

You might be right about her. I'm not entirely convinced. We'll need to agree to disagree.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 25 September, 2020, 10:59:39 PM
Maybe it was mentioned earlier in the thread, and forgive my naivete, but what's TERF?

Internet yoofspeak that sensible people should only use ironically.

I'll confess that I have no firsthand knowledge of J.K Rowlings opinions of the trans community, but the debate here confirms my bias that she's not that great a writer, since she can't express herself clearly and unambiguously.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 25 September, 2020, 11:10:55 PM
Worth pointing out that TERFs' views are not considered normal or acceptable within the contemporary feminism movement.  Theirs (TERFs) is a fringe opinion based on - as I pointed out - biological and gender essentialism, a form of argument used to oppress women for centuries by claiming their societal roles were predetermined by physical factors.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 25 September, 2020, 11:23:39 PM
Worth pointing out that TERFs' views are not considered normal or acceptable within the contemporary feminism movement.

And, again, the idea that they would be happy to share those ‘safe spaces’ with trans men is clearly ridiculous. Despite their argument demonstrably stating that they would, of course they fucking wouldn’t. It’s intellectually dishonest. It’s just transphobia dressed up in feminist justification. Hence, TERF.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 25 September, 2020, 11:24:34 PM
Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

Cheers Jim.  I believe Graham Linehan sort of puts himself in that category.  I've been watching Ralph and Ted on Youtube all week; I try and distance myself from the idea that Glinner's involved.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 25 September, 2020, 11:36:33 PM
Interesting Gruniad article on "Troubled Blood" (https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/sep/17/jk-rowling-villain-womens-clothes-based-on-real-cases-robert-galbraith-troubled-blood), in which Rowling explains what she thinks the book is about, and where she got the idea for the murder suspect's proclivities.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: radiator 26 September, 2020, 12:13:28 AM
It grinds my gears when people who would never dare say anything openly homophobic moan about the whole transgender bathrooms thing. Can't they hear themselves and realise that many people used to say the exact same kinds of things about gay people - and not even that long ago?

It's like people who think they're pretty liberal minded but decry BLM because they 'go a bit far' and 'don't do themselves any favours' with their actions. Have some self-awareness and understand that you'd be saying the exact same thing about the civil rights movement if you had been around back then. Do you want to be that person?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Dandontdare 26 September, 2020, 01:36:46 AM
Not really wanting to get involved in the trans/terf debate (for most of the reasons this thread addresses), this is a good piece about whether Rowling's latest book is a transphobic message or not: https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2020/sep/15/rowling-troubled-blood-thriller-robert-galbraith-review (https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2020/sep/15/rowling-troubled-blood-thriller-robert-galbraith-review)

My principal objection to the term 'woke'  is grammatical. It's the past-perfect of wake. The adjectival forms are awoken, awake, or awakened, all of which are crap, so think of something else, (I'm with Bernard Black: "NEVER use party as a verb in this shop")

It can be dangerous to create an unnatural sounding term that will only ever aid the enemy - the phrase "politically correct" was never a left wing philosophy, but an in-joke that was picked up by the right wing press and used against them ever since1. In all my years I have NEVER heard it used by anyone on the left, it is only EVER used in a derogatory sense by opponents of something or other, and it has become a mightily powerful tool in every argument since.

While we're on the subject, how the hell did "do-gooder" become an insult? Damn you, coming round here and doing good!

1https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 26 September, 2020, 07:11:44 AM
It's like people who think they're pretty liberal minded but decry BLM because they 'go a bit far' and 'don't do themselves any favours' with their actions.

This is true of Extinction Rebellion too.  Their recent disruption of access to the printing press site achieved exactly what it was intended to, foregrounding the complicity of the media in so many social and political issues of harm to many and the Climate Crisis in particular.

So the emphasis is on restrictions to 'press freedom' in the commentary whilst ignoring the fact that so many editorial decisions give space and time to questionable or downright inaccurate points about whether human activity is responsible.  In doing so the result is to illustrate the very point XR was aiming for.

The same is true of those complain about the inconvenience of XR actions that disrupt traffic.  Ignoring the fact that a hell of a lot of people suffered far more than a few hours 'inconvenience' earlier this year when they were flooded out by the extreme weather events of the last winter and are still living with the effects nearly 9 months later in some cases.

Maybe there needs to be a bit more consideration over whether 'we' are doing ourselves any favours with our apathy.  Having kicked open the worm can with this thread I'm now going to lob in another one by suggesting that some of what is going on right now is bringing me to consider some of Sharky's viewpoints on government and social structures.   :o :(
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Leigh S 26 September, 2020, 08:51:09 AM
Wish the Guardian (and JK herself) had taken the same "wait a minute maybe we are reading too much into this and people are twisting their words for smearing purposes" when it came to Corbyn.  If you were to give JK a bit of slack, you then have to ask yourslf how many double downs and trollings you are happy to allow her to make (for someone how is apparently cancelled) - I'm sure there is an irony in this given JK and the Guardian's "No debate!" approach to purging the Labour party of those damned Leftists
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 26 September, 2020, 09:13:37 AM
Cheers Jim.  I believe Graham Linehan sort of puts himself in that category.  I've been watching Ralph and Ted on Youtube all week; I try and distance myself from the idea that Glinner's involved.

To be honest, there's no "sort of" — Linehan's gone quite, quite mad. I genuinely think he needs psychiatric help.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: shaolin_monkey 26 September, 2020, 10:27:21 AM
Blimey, what a thread!

I have two trans sons. I just want them to be happy, and to live in a world of acceptance. I don’t think that’s too much to ask, but apparently for some people it is. Regardless, I’ll defend them to my dying breath.

Re ‘woke’, the grammar jars for me also, and I dislike it as a label used on either side. On the ‘positive’ side it can be used to describe someone who exhibits an ideology of fairness, equality, and acceptance - but it’s massively patronising, as if you have suddenly awoken to those concepts. It was used on be in the last few years, and my instant reaction was “Fuck you - this is my entire ideology, and always has been - don’t bloody label me.”

Possibly an overreaction, but it just took me back to a time in work a few decades ago when a hugely homophobic dickhead was being really nasty to gay employees, and when he and I butted heads over it he accused me of jumping on some pro-homosexual bandwagon. The idiot really copped it from me then!!  For some reason it always angers me that people who don’t know me try to tell me what I do and don’t believe, and why.

Anyway, I digress. On the flip side, “woke” has been adopted to describe the folk who stand for equality and justice in a derogatory fashion, as if those are bad things.  There are many words used to denigrate those who want the best for everyone.

I’m compiling a list of words/phrases only used by these complete and utter wankers:

Virtue signalling
Libtard
Snowflake
Antifa
SJW
Remoaner
Soyboy
Cuck
Commie
Feminazi

It’s a great trick employed by the right wing to create short snappy words and mottos (“Get Brexit Done”) to align those lacking the education to employ critical thought, and to sidestep empathy for your fellow human beings. Weaponised language, basically. It’s one of the many precursors to genocide.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 26 September, 2020, 10:39:25 AM

I think anything can be questioned. If we don't question things, how can we a) understand or b) improve them?

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 26 September, 2020, 11:04:40 AM

Anyway, I digress. On the flip side, “woke” has been adopted to describe the folk who stand for equality and justice in a derogatory fashion, as if those are bad things.  There are many words used to denigrate those who want the best for everyone.

I’m compiling a list of words/phrases only used by these complete and utter wankers:

Virtue signalling
Libtard
Snowflake
Antifa
SJW
Remoaner
Soyboy
Cuck
Commie
Feminazi

It’s a great trick employed by the right wing to create short snappy words and mottos (“Get Brexit Done”) to align those lacking the education to employ critical thought, and to sidestep empathy for your fellow human beings. Weaponised language, basically. It’s one of the many precursors to genocide.


Don't forget "conspiracy theorist." Police detectives, arson investigators, coroners and suchlike are all conspiracy theorists because they assemble and arrange evidence before formulating theories which are tested in court.

Someone who believes that Elvis lives with Shergar in a London bus on the moon from whence he maintains a CIA mind control ray pointed at the Vatican is not a conspiracy theorist but a conspiracy fictionist.

Labels like these discourage questions and non-mainstream narratives as well as reducing incredibly complex individual human beings to a handful of negative traits. When the label is all we see, it's much easier to hate what it represents than to love the fellow human it's attached to.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 26 September, 2020, 11:22:55 AM
Don't forget "conspiracy theorist." Police detectives, arson investigators, coroners and suchlike are all conspiracy theorists because they assemble and arrange evidence before formulating theories which are tested in court.

While technically true, the examples you listed are neither called nor dismissed as conspiracy theorists because they have expertise and qualifications in the subjects they investigate.

I do not think it is unreasonable to dismiss an amateur who conflates presenting second hand articles  found on google with the difficult time consuming discipline of research. There is a fine line between “questioning the mainstream narrative”, “attempting to deny reality” and downright “maliciously lying to confuse the narrative “.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: shaolin_monkey 26 September, 2020, 11:32:45 AM
At times such as this I like to highlight Dr. John Cook and Dr Stephan Lewandowsky’s booklet aptly named ‘The Conspiracy Theory Handbook’ - 10 pages of very useful information re what they are, and how to recognise them:

https://www.climatechangecommunication.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ConspiracyTheoryHandbook.pdf

I may have mentioned it before.

Good to see you Shark! It’s been a while.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 26 September, 2020, 11:39:50 AM
Cheers Jim.  I believe Graham Linehan sort of puts himself in that category.  I've been watching Ralph and Ted on Youtube all week; I try and distance myself from the idea that Glinner's involved.

To be honest, there's no "sort of" — Linehan's gone quite, quite mad. I genuinely think he needs psychiatric help.


I haven't followed his recent developments too closely, but he does seem to have lost it a bit.  Shame - I'll always love his work on Father Ted, The Fast Show and Brass Eye.  I suppose it's fairly normal to like the creation but not the creator. 
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 26 September, 2020, 11:48:11 AM
Mister Pops,

I hope you are well.


Agreed on all points.

Some of the most careful researchers out there are dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" and chucked in the same bin as Ike or Blair. To be fair, I do much the same thing with the mainstream media believing it to be (as no doubt others do with "alternative" media) highly politicised, heavily edited, and relentlessly dumbing down. Even the news channels seem to be all emotion.

Anyway. Not everyone to whom the label "conspiracy theorist" has been attached is a raving lunatic, is what I'm saying. I mean, I am, obviously. Goes without saying.

Don't rely on the labels.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 26 September, 2020, 11:53:38 AM
Cheers Jim.  I believe Graham Linehan sort of puts himself in that category.  I've been watching Ralph and Ted on Youtube all week; I try and distance myself from the idea that Glinner's involved.

To be honest, there's no "sort of" — Linehan's gone quite, quite mad. I genuinely think he needs psychiatric help.


I haven't followed his recent developments too closely, but he does seem to have lost it a bit.  Shame - I'll always love his work on Father Ted, The Fast Show and Brass Eye.  I suppose it's fairly normal to like the creation but not the creator.

Worth remembering that Linehan was not the sole creator of those works. Dermot Morgans efforts shouldn’t be dismissed because his former collaborator decided he wanted to be in Scunthorpe.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 26 September, 2020, 12:53:16 PM
Cheers Jim.  I believe Graham Linehan sort of puts himself in that category.  I've been watching Ralph and Ted on Youtube all week; I try and distance myself from the idea that Glinner's involved.

To be honest, there's no "sort of" — Linehan's gone quite, quite mad. I genuinely think he needs psychiatric help.


I haven't followed his recent developments too closely, but he does seem to have lost it a bit.  Shame - I'll always love his work on Father Ted, The Fast Show and Brass Eye.  I suppose it's fairly normal to like the creation but not the creator.

Worth remembering that Linehan was not the sole creator of those works. Dermot Morgans efforts shouldn’t be dismissed because his former collaborator decided he wanted to be in Scunthorpe.

Yes, of course.  And obviously Arthur Matthews, Chris Morris and everyone involved in The Fast Show.  Also I'd forgotten about the hugely underrated Big Train, whose main creators were Matthews and Linehan, which makes it all the sadder that the latter now resides, as you say, in Scunthorpe.

I suppose the same could be said of JK Rowling's work, even though I've never read it and have no intention of doing so.  I saw one Harry Potter film and it really, really wasn't my thing.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sintec 26 September, 2020, 01:21:28 PM
I think anything can be questioned. If we don't question things, how can we a) understand or b) improve them?

Whilst I absolutely agree with the sentiment I think we have to take some care when the thing being questioned is someone elses right to live their life in the way they choose. If they're not hurting anyone else with their choices then they shouldn't have to justify those choices to a baying mob. It's also worth remembering that it's not on them to continually explain themselves or their culture, it's on us to educate ourselves. Questioning can be used as a means to disenfranchise communities or to bully them into submission at which point it's no longer a positive thing.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 26 September, 2020, 02:19:00 PM
I suppose the same could be said of JK Rowling's work, even though I've never read it and have no intention of doing so.  I saw one Harry Potter film and it really, really wasn't my thing.

I think it's a wee bit trickier to divorce the sole author of a book from their work, than a collaborator on a TV show. I have no skin in the Harry Potter game either. I read the first book* and didn't hate, but I wasn't about to read the sequels to this book for wee kids** with their ever expanding page counts. My sisters are big fans of the series, but I know they haven't had a high opinion of its author for a while now. I don't know if this is the consensus among Potter fans, some may be burning the books, others may feel their vile opinions vindicated.

Look. I don't know if Rowling is transphobic or not and I don't care enough about her or her work to investigate further. It was just something I heard second hand and I probably shouldn't have parroted it.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 26 September, 2020, 02:26:59 PM
I suppose the same could be said of JK Rowling's work, even though I've never read it and have no intention of doing so.  I saw one Harry Potter film and it really, really wasn't my thing.

I think it's a wee bit trickier to divorce the sole author of a book from their work, than a collaborator on a TV show. I have no skin in the Harry Potter game either. I read the first book* and didn't hate, but I wasn't about to read the sequels to this book for wee kids** with their ever expanding page counts. My sisters are big fans of the series, but I know they haven't had a high opinion of its author for a while now. I don't know if this is the consensus among Potter fans, some may be burning the books, others may feel their vile opinions vindicated.

Look. I don't know if Rowling is transphobic or not and I don't care enough about her or her work to investigate further. It was just something I heard second hand and I probably shouldn't have parroted it.

Mssed the edit

*Back when the third book came out and the hype was really kicking in
** I was 19 and too cool for school
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 26 September, 2020, 03:53:43 PM
I think anything can be questioned. If we don't question things, how can we a) understand or b) improve them?

It's also worth remembering that it's not on them to continually explain themselves or their culture, it's on us to educate ourselves. Questioning can be used as a means to disenfranchise communities or to bully them into submission at which point it's no longer a positive thing.

This is something I find myself wanting to explore.  One thing that Christians consistently get wrong in the whole "homosexuality is a sin" position is that it is not just questioning behaviour.  It is questioning and impugning someone's identity.  There is a fundamental failure to understand what the implications of this are.

At the same time though there is a cultural shift that has moved at different speeds in different places.  Growing up in an all-male boarding school and then the RAF has, for me, had a powerful impact on my understanding of many things (or rather, misunderstanding).  So now I find myself having to question and explore those understandings in significant depth.

As a process of self-education there is a risk in straying across the line between knowledge-seeking and disenfranchisement.  Considering the perceptual challenges my mental health condition places on me it is all too easy to blunder inadvertently.

So I find myself in a bind.  Am I allowed to ask these questions?  Is wanting to explore how these issues affect me inappropriate because I should not have them in the first place?  How can I discuss them without blundering over those invisible lines that seem to constantly shift?

Considering that we currently seem to be living with "Generation Outrage" where it is not just a right to be offended but it almost seems mandatory at times, I'm not sure how to do so.  I'm not making light of legitimate grievances and anger against injustice.  What I do find problematic is how quickly minor issues can become so dramatically inflated.  As was observed over on the Threadjacking thread, the speed at which the Internet can become outraged is terrifying!
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 26 September, 2020, 04:14:56 PM
I suppose the same could be said of JK Rowling's work, even though I've never read it and have no intention of doing so.  I saw one Harry Potter film and it really, really wasn't my thing.

I think it's a wee bit trickier to divorce the sole author of a book from their work, than a collaborator on a TV show. I have no skin in the Harry Potter game either. I read the first book* and didn't hate, but I wasn't about to read the sequels to this book for wee kids** with their ever expanding page counts. My sisters are big fans of the series, but I know they haven't had a high opinion of its author for a while now. I don't know if this is the consensus among Potter fans, some may be burning the books, others may feel their vile opinions vindicated.

Look. I don't know if Rowling is transphobic or not and I don't care enough about her or her work to investigate further. It was just something I heard second hand and I probably shouldn't have parroted it.

No bother; I wasn't even referring to your comments specifically - thinking about Graham Linehan led me to thinking about JK Rowling.

One thing that's just occurred to me is a loosely-remembered idea from a source I can't remember either, concerning the incessant claims that 'woke' culture wants to restrict free speech.

Restrictions on free speech is North Korea, China and Nazi Germany.  It's police forcibly arresting you for saying something the government doesn't like.  What many alt-right types don't understand is that free speech doesn't mean there are no consequences whatsoever for saying ugly and derogatory things.  If my manager is brown-skinned (which he is, btw) and I address him with a racial slur, should I keep my job because he shouldn't impinge on my right to free speech?  If I shout transphobic abuse at a trans shop assistant, should I be allowed back into the shop whenever I like because of my legal entitlement to free speech?

Free speech isn't what a lot of people these days seem to think it is.  If you say injecting disinfectant cures a virus, expect to get ridiculed.  If you talk about picaninnies with watermelon smiles in the 20th century, expect people to say you're a racist prick. 
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 26 September, 2020, 04:21:05 PM
Am I allowed to ask these questions?

I think this is a safe space for that.

---

I'm sorry if my questioning has offended anyone, I must say. I know that, like Tjm86, I'm often trying to think myself to a better understanding, and sometimes that means I'm going to question positions.

Like, with feminism, or women's rights, I've always felt like I've been a supporter. And with trans rights, it's been a life journey because it's something that feels like it's come into existence while I've been in existence. So, when it seems like there's a conflict between the two sets of rights I get confused as to how to fathom that.

But that's all really in a mental playground of mine (which I expose here) - when the rubber hits the road, I know exactly what to do and say and how to behave, and I'm supportive. I just wanted to emphasize that. In my job as a teacher I support all my students, and my classroom (I'm proud to say) is inclusive. I correctly pronoun, I flag support, I shut down any sort of hate-speech that crops up (although it has very rarely cropped up), I don't push my politics on them and I try to demonstrate how debate and research can answer better where a fixed mindset can't.

I am aware that (where I live) the younger generation is much, much better at acceptance of trans rights & gay rights than the school and area where I grew up. I'm hopeful (despite the Trumps and Putins of the world) that the direction of travel is positive.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 26 September, 2020, 04:28:40 PM
Sorry to double-post, but slightly separate topic.

I took a fairly vociferous stance against perceived conspiracy theories a few months ago on here, and sort of joined in a policy of saying they didn't belong here as topics of conversation.

Then I noticed they were coming up on news media as topics of conversation, and I felt like an arse.

If the media takes them seriously enough to investigate (and, in many cases, as you might imagine, debunk), then who am I (and who are we) to say they're not valid topics of conversation here.

That's my long-winded way of saying sorry.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 26 September, 2020, 05:05:46 PM
Am I allowed to ask these questions?

I think this is a safe space for that.

---

I'm sorry if my questioning has offended anyone, I must say. I know that, like Tjm86, I'm often trying to think myself to a better understanding, and sometimes that means I'm going to question positions.

Like, with feminism, or women's rights, I've always felt like I've been a supporter. And with trans rights, it's been a life journey because it's something that feels like it's come into existence while I've been in existence...

I am aware that (where I live) the younger generation is much, much better at acceptance of trans rights & gay rights than the school and area where I grew up. I'm hopeful (despite the Trumps and Putins of the world) that the direction of travel is positive.

Totally with you here.  I was born in small-town Ireland when the Catholic church still pretty much ruled the roost, and it's been very encouraging to me to see the power of their blinkered, medieval views wane so much.  My students are mostly Brazilians, and I used to wonder why they had such a high proportion of gay men among their number.  I have since been told that they're here because they're gay, and are accepted much more.  Which makes me happy, when I look back at a time when you couldn't even get divorced.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 26 September, 2020, 05:35:46 PM

There's a lot of interesting stuff behind the curtain, but the light's all on the stage so much of it is in shadow. My flowery way of saying s'okay.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sintec 26 September, 2020, 06:03:21 PM
In my job as a teacher I support all my students, and my classroom (I'm proud to say) is inclusive. I correctly pronoun, I flag support, I shut down any sort of hate-speech that crops up (although it has very rarely cropped up), I don't push my politics on them and I try to demonstrate how debate and research can answer better where a fixed mindset can't.

Reading this made me think; some people would argue that creating that inclusive, safe-space is a political act. Teaching kids it's ok to be gay, or trans, or bi, to wear whatever you want and live your life however you want is, for them, a deeply political thing. Their view seems to be that this is indoctrinating children with liberal/feminist/gay/marxist ideology. A view that was enforced as law under in the UK under section 28 up until fairly recently so I guess we shouldn't be all that surprising that it's still got a lot of supporters. I'd hoped we'd moved past this but it seems many will fight for their right to ignorance.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 26 September, 2020, 06:19:29 PM
.So, when it seems like there's a conflict between the two sets of rights I get confused as to how to fathom that.

That's at the heart of the fiddly bits alright. I think if you haven't had to struggle with this question at some point you really haven't cared about either.

In my job as a teacher I support all my students, and my classroom (I'm proud to say) is inclusive. I correctly pronoun, I flag support, I shut down any sort of hate-speech that crops up (although it has very rarely cropped up), I don't push my politics on them and I try to demonstrate how debate and research can answer better where a fixed mindset can't.

As noted, this is in itself a highly political act. Would that all teachers were like you (acknowledging that many are).
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 26 September, 2020, 07:28:36 PM
Of course it is part of politics (there's not much that isn't) - but professionally I can sidestep that as our employee handbook has a harassment policy (so my behavior can sidestep politics and land successfully in the realm of policy). What I don't do is criticize or laud particular politicians or parties - the better to avoid alienating my students (who may, any road, have been indoctrinated by their relatives). Trump makes this something of a challenge, especially when students call him out. I have to go to my happy place.

Talking of Clause 28, I'm proud to say (and really have my father to thank) I marched against it in Glasgow in the 80s, and was there to hear Ian McKellen give a speech against it.

See, when that man clubbed the head off the statue of Thatcher, I cheered. I had to cheer. Go on, my son!
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 26 September, 2020, 07:29:39 PM
Considering that we currently seem to be living with "Generation Outrage" where it is not just a right to be offended but it almost seems mandatory at times, I'm not sure how to do so.

Don't take this as a personal jibe or anything, but perhaps the only "generation outrage" is those who refuse to question - let alone share - their privilege.  In the 1950s and 1960s, a lot of people who considered themselves blameless started asking why black people "suddenly" wanted civil rights, and why they were so uppity and demanding about it.  Why couldn't they be civil and ask politely?  Maybe we might have granted them those civil rights when we felt it was an appropriate time and/or they were responsible enough to handle them - I guess we'll never know, because those equal rights terrorists and their coordinated mobs had their way.

Maybe we just didn't have any opportunity to hear what oppressed or erased groups wanted or thought about things before?  Before social media, the public were filtered by the editors of newspapers or political programming who vetted their opinions and decided who did or didn't have a right to be heard, but now opinions are immediate and globally available and groups who've previously been deliberately excluded from the discourse are "suddenly" demanding this or that out of nowhere.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 26 September, 2020, 07:46:42 PM
Am I allowed to ask these questions?

I think this is a safe space for that.


Thanks for that.  Yes it is.  Surprising and refreshing for the Internet.  Been said countless times before on these parts.  Not entirely sure why some of those who have migrated to Facebook have come to the view that this is such a reactionary space.  Especially considering what that world can be like.

It's also been useful following the way this thread has evolved.  Personally I'm conflicted by my discomfort over some of the issues that have been mentioned.  On the Trans / Cis-gender / sorry, what else is it called? issue I do have female colleagues who mention how it makes them feel at times.  There is the occasional rumour mentioned but nothing concrete.  At the same time though we have several transitioning students who are simply accepted in terms of their preferred gender.

For my part I find that all of this jars with the attitudes I grew up with at school.  A lot of us are all of the same age for the most part where the idea of a "tranny" was considered something disturbing.  The Monty Python "I'm a lumberjack" song and video is a good example of attitudes of earlier generations on this issue.  Now I'm teaching kids who identify by a gender different to that at birth without even thinking about that fact.

So following the thinking and experiences of folks round here has been helpful.  I'm grateful personally for the help.  Thanks folks.

Prof, thanks for those thoughts too.  Fair point.  My issue is not with the legitimate grievances but with the petty ones masquerading as legitimate concerns.  As an example I ended up in trouble for using the 'n' word in a debate about a child using the word 'retard' to describe another who has a diagnosis for Autism.  My point was that the two words are equivalent and neither should be used.  As a point of order there were no ethnic minority children in the class. 

To my mind the reaction epitomised the point that I was trying to make, that disability discrimination is a major and unrecognised issue.  The argument put to me was that the age of the children (12 to 13) made it inappropriate.  My counter that the children had initiated the need through their use of discriminatory language, the lack of minority individuals and that they all frequently used such language was considered irrelevant.

So it isn't so much those who have been excluded to date that I'm directing this at, rather at those who choose to be outraged on their behalf.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Leigh S 27 September, 2020, 09:37:23 AM
This review gets to the heart of matters with a lot less sophistry than we are seeing coming out of the Guardian et al:

https://www.vox.com/culture/21449215/troubled-blood-review-jk-rowling-transphobia-controversy (https://www.vox.com/culture/21449215/troubled-blood-review-jk-rowling-transphobia-controversy)

As an aside  - Cormoran Strike?!?  Honestly, what the heck - that sturck her as a good name for a "serious"" crime thriller?  If she isn't trolling the trans-movement, she is certainly trolling literature and her readers....
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: judgeurko 27 September, 2020, 10:21:29 AM
Just thinking again about the title of this thread, & the answer is clearly yes. The real issue appears to be that those who criticise what they see as "woke" behaviour don't seem to like having their opinion critiqued in return, & then bang on about being cancelled. Who are the real snowflakes?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sintec 27 September, 2020, 01:21:36 PM
That vox review really does make it sound like she's doing a bit of a Dave Sim and making her story subordinate to being a vehicle to express her political ideas and hatred for specific groups of people. It'll be interesting to see how that works out for her, it didn't go to well for Dave.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 30 September, 2020, 07:29:50 AM

Following the Woke Crowd Backfires for Minneapolis City Council. (https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/following-the-woke-crowd-backfires-for-minneapolis-city-council/)

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sintec 30 September, 2020, 09:14:18 AM
I'm not sure that article really makes a convincing case against defunding the police. I mean it's obvious that when there's a massive demonstration in progress police resources will be stretched.  Hell back in my free party days we'd often take advantage of things like local football derby matches to have a big blow out because we knew the police would be busy elsewhere. The second anecdote strikes me as spurious at best, it's hardly surprising that "a friend of mine felt suspicious that all was not well at their home and called the police to see if they could do a routine check" is a low priority. Also do you really want to live in a society where the police are going to come and snoop around your neighbourhood because someone was feeling a bit paranoid?

The point it does make slightly better is that policy by slogan is a bit shite - but that's hardly confined to the "woke" side of the political aisle, "Get Brexit Done" springs instantly to mind.

As opinion pieces go it  doesn't really do a convincing job of arguing that defunding the police is a bad thing. It doesn't even really tackle the central arguments of that campaign. It just provides 2 anecdotes the point of which seems to be "we need more police not less" (an argument I'd surprised to see you supporting Sharky). The central point of defunding the police is we need more support for communities not more mob-handed police armed with military grade gear.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sheridan 30 September, 2020, 10:47:45 AM
Their view seems to be that this is indoctrinating children with liberal/feminist/gay/marxist ideology. A view that was enforced as law under in the UK under section 28 up until fairly recently so I guess we shouldn't be all that surprising that it's still got a lot of supporters. I'd hoped we'd moved past this but it seems many will fight for their right to ignorance.


Who knows how far the government's new guidance (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/capitalism-teaching-school-racism-violence-democracy-gavin-williamson-b625480.html) will go - some have pointed out that teaching about the rise of the Nazis in the 1930s would prove difficult...
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 30 September, 2020, 11:22:06 AM

I was more intrigued by the government jumping aboard the woke bandwagon angle - a prime example of politicians doing what politicians do; jumping in front of the parade.

The defund the police argument is, to me, largely irrelevant in the context of the direction I'd like to see society take. Policing, in my view, requires a more comprehensive and integral rethink.

The context of the thread is questioning "woke" and it is in that context I posted the link. The way ideas and movements can grab us by the emotions is powerful indeed - but then, so is the judo of rationality. I suppose the ideal is a kind of balance, to think as we feel as we do.

But I guess if we could all do that, we'd all be Buddha. As we can't, I think we should treat any movement, no matter how well meaning, with at least a modicum of scepticism.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 30 September, 2020, 12:11:00 PM
The defund the police argument is, to me, largely irrelevant in the context of the direction I'd like to see society take. Policing, in my view, requires a more comprehensive and integral rethink.

Agreed, but this is years - realistically decades - away, if it ever happens at all.  What about people's material conditions right now?  Defunding the police - even if it is just another reformist argument - is becoming a mainstream position, and undermining it makes radical and effective overhaul less likely in the long run.  If your aim is to ask questions, you might start by asking who benefits from this position once again becoming seen as an extreme and unworkable one.

I think we should treat any movement, no matter how well meaning, with at least a modicum of scepticism.

In theory, this sounds like a reasonable centrist position, but in practice, there probably weren't a lot of black people in 1820s Alabama complaining about Abolitionists' ulterior motives.  Though given the state of discourse right now, possibly there were.  Possibly there were blokes in blackface and thick Russian accents wandering the countryside and saying anti-abolitionist slogans to random strangers and then slinking off whenever anyone tried to engage with them beyond that.  After the last few years, I'd believe it.


Following the Woke Crowd Backfires for Minneapolis City Council. (https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/following-the-woke-crowd-backfires-for-minneapolis-city-council/)

1) this story actually makes a stronger case FOR defunding the police, and it's only an argument against if you accept their incorrect view of what the movement's aims are as factual rather than deeply incorrect at best, and at worst dishonest, because
2) - Intellectual Takeout is an alt-right website.  Its record on bias and fact-checking is spotty to say the least, but even Mediabiasfactcheck.com's rather charitable evaluation (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/intellectual-takeout/) mentions many reasons for concern.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 30 September, 2020, 12:16:43 PM
I liked the bit where they claimed the PC Brigade are trying to cancel Thomas Jefferson.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sintec 30 September, 2020, 12:29:58 PM
The defund the police argument is, to me, largely irrelevant in the context of the direction I'd like to see society take. Policing, in my view, requires a more comprehensive and integral rethink.

I believe that's largely the argument being made by those suggesting we defund the police.  Less police and more support for people with mental illnesses, more support to help people leave abusive relationships, better education and support for young people so they don't turn to crime in the first place e.t.c.

The underlying idea is that by supporting the $s on supporting the community there will be less crime to police.  Basically the plot of the current Dredd in the prog (it'll be interesting to see where they go with that).
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 30 September, 2020, 02:57:16 PM
I liked the bit where they claimed the PC Brigade are trying to cancel Thomas Jefferson.

The 14 year old who bore six of Jefferson's children was clearly in a consensual relationship with the man who literally owned her as property.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 30 September, 2020, 03:11:15 PM
"Do you know how much a slave cost, back then?" (https://youtu.be/lbasdFh97tY)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 06 October, 2020, 02:18:27 PM
I agree with political correctness and think all people should be judged by their character and not their race, sexuality, gender etc but 'wokeness' has become almost like a parody of itself now.  Teens and young adults collectively trying to cancel things.  The problem is that when they are cancelling comedy, or trying to, they don't have anything to replace it.  We all grew up on sitcoms, some out of line with current values, but they are growing up on memes and cat videos.  This is the least funny generation ever and when they become the barometers of what's acceptable, it gets a bit too close to censorship.  At times it is like watching the puritans from Black Adder 2.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 06 October, 2020, 02:29:39 PM
Frankly, I find most sit-coms date very badly. Friends is cringeworthy now, and so so white (not least given where it’s set). I don’t see much in the way of cancelling—it’s just people saying they don’t want to give any time to a specific thing, and people who like that specific thing getting in a huff. (Front vs. Fox shows this in microcosm.)

As for woke, I got called it on Facebook. Someone was thinking of subscribing to The Beano. Some bloke said it’s rubbish now, and not a patch on the GOOD OLD DAYS. I noted that I thought the modern Beano was far superior in writing and I also liked the fact it’s inclusive. For that, I was branded woke. Apparently, I deserve that for being happy my daughter has a comic to read where Dennis isn’t a massive arsehole (and is instead streetwise), there are actual girls in it, there are a few (although not many) people of more diverse backgrounds, and where some of the extremely problematic characterisation of e.g. Walter has been replaced by something a lot smarter.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 06 October, 2020, 05:58:18 PM
As for cat videos and memes, it's easy to argue that there's over-saturation, but The Wall explored an over-saturation of consumable screen media back in 1982 (so this is not a new phenomenon).

As for the quality of the comedy, that's in the laugh-circuits of the beholding droid. If they're amused by the memes, who are we to say it's not funny? I'm not going to win any arguments shoving Butterflies, The Good Life, To The Manor Born or even Only Fools and Horses in front of the young 'uns and telling them that those are *real* funny but this isn't:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/aa/63/ecaa632e270e870865813c86470ac2ef.jpg)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 06 October, 2020, 05:59:43 PM
Once I gave my old Beanos a flicking* and was honestly taken aback by the constant casual child abuse. It would make a cardinal blush.

*I could have phrased that better.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 06 October, 2020, 06:00:39 PM
This is the least funny generation ever and when they become the barometers of what's acceptable, it gets a bit too close to censorship.

That sounds suspiciously like an old man talking, and I should know. There's edgy young person humour a-plenty out there in social media land, which is the coalface of popular culture, and not the restrictive and financially conservative old media (and even there you have lots of material that would never have been broadcast in the '70s, where the average height of wit was Mrs. Slocum's pussy).

In conversation with my two today, I discovered the hard borders of my own wokehood, and apparently it extends to just short of cultural appropriation.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JOE SOAP 06 October, 2020, 06:06:14 PM
Comedy generally doesn't age well. When you look back at many of the comics you used to like, the yucks aren't so plentiful.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 06 October, 2020, 06:13:01 PM
Even Bill Hicks slipped on a homophobic banana peel.

(So many ways to read that sentence.)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: radiator 06 October, 2020, 07:11:35 PM
This is the least funny generation ever

Said every older generation about every younger generation ever....

Comedy is much like music - people cherry pick the classics and forget that the vast majority of whats popular at any given time is almost always lowest common denominator crap.

I remember my dad sadly shaking his head when he discovered me listening to The Chemical Brothers, as it wasn't 'real music', and telling me that rap wasn't 'music' either, and was at most a 'street art'. :-\



The only thing that riles me about 'cancel culture'* is that the right likes to pretend it's a one way street, when it absolutely is not. The right are always trying to get people on the left 'cancelled'.


*which frankly I'm not convinced is even a thing. Is Michael Jackson 'cancelled'? Last time I checked, most people were still listening to his music. If people like Louis CK lose work and credibility as a direct result of their own grubbiness and stupidity then I don't really have any sympathy for that.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 06 October, 2020, 07:26:23 PM
Frankly, I find most sit-coms date very badly.

I think for the most part this is quite true.  I would like to stick my neck out, my head in the lion's jaw, above the parapet and so forth and suggest MASH as a possible exception.  I'm currently on a re-viewing at about season 4. 

Given its tendency to tackle racial prejudice, homophobia and the treatment of natives by American armed forces, there is little that would be overly problematic to a modern audience.  Possibly the objectification of women, but even there that is called out for what it is.

Can't think of many others that can make such a claim.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 06 October, 2020, 07:46:24 PM
The Tories are busy wrecking the creative industries in the UK. That’s a lot worse than people refusing to watch a shitty sitcom or not hanging on the every word of a xenophobic b-list actor.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 06 October, 2020, 07:51:05 PM
MASH certainly stands up brilliantly, but I still can't persuade my kids that it's remotely funny.

There's a lot that's odd about what  intergenerational humour works: my Dad foisted Round the Horne, TW3 , Hancock and The Goon Show on me, all from long before I was born, and I loved them all. Similarly my kids love Monty Python and Father Ted, but don't seem to get Fawlty Towers or Dad's Army at all.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 06 October, 2020, 08:11:30 PM
I wonder how Brass Eye, for my money the funniest comedy programme ever*, would appear to the younger generation.  There are some very, very non-PC (hate to use that expression, but I can't think of another one) scenes there, but clearly made by snowflake (well, I'm on a roll now) liberals. Quite a few of the
celebrities being made idiots of are no longer with us, so it's clearly lost that bit of its bite, and one of them was Rolf Harris.

*I will post this then immediately remember a funnier one.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Greg M. 06 October, 2020, 08:14:08 PM
Given its tendency to tackle racial prejudice, homophobia and the treatment of natives by American armed forces, there is little that would be overly problematic to a modern audience.  Possibly the objectification of women, but even there that is called out for what it is.
Interesting to note that although Alan Alda brought elements of his own political ideals to Hawkeye, he's always said he didn't see Hawkeye as left-wing. He had Hawkeye pegged as a libertarian - someone who wants to keep the government out of his drinks cabinet.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 06 October, 2020, 08:32:23 PM
Good question, Jayzus!  I'm guessing the unfortunately enduring currency of the format and its fake-news theme would make it an easy transition for today's kids - The Day Today even moreso. Maybe I'm not quite ready to try it on mine yet, though.

Coincidentally, I'd just decided to give the new Spitting Image a miss as far as family viewing goes, despite the original (along with Black Adder) being the ne plus ultra of comedy for me when I was the age my eldest is now. Who's the cool Dad now, huh?

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: radiator 06 October, 2020, 09:18:15 PM
I wonder how Brass Eye, for my money the funniest comedy programme ever*, would appear to the younger generation.  There are some very, very non-PC (hate to use that expression, but I can't think of another one) scenes there, but clearly made by snowflake (well, I'm on a roll now) liberals. Quite a few of the
celebrities being made idiots of are no longer with us, so it's clearly lost that bit of its bite, and one of them was Rolf Harris.

*I will post this then immediately remember a funnier one.

It wouldn't work now. Modern news coverage is almost indistinguishable from satire, in some cases the reality is crazier and darker than anything Chris Morris could come up with.



I think what irritates me more than anything when it comes to 'PC' culture is when people are incapable of discerning (or in some cases willfully choose to misconstrue) context and authorial intent.

This video review of Jojo Rabbit is a classic example of this sort of thing. Just a completely braindead critique and/or a disingenuous misreading of a film that is pretty obviously an anti-fascist work (and one that was made by a person of Jewish descent):

https://themuse.jezebel.com/i-would-like-to-never-think-about-jojo-rabbit-ever-agai-1841328185 (https://themuse.jezebel.com/i-would-like-to-never-think-about-jojo-rabbit-ever-agai-1841328185)

You see this sort of thing a lot where rightwingers say things like 'You couldn't make The Producers or Blazing Saddles these days because Political Correctness'. Well, yes you completely could. Just because a piece of art deals with troubling themes and contains offensive language doesn't mean that the filmmakers are condoning those things, ffs. I remember a lot of people saying The Hateful Eight was a misogynist film that glorified violence against women, and I can only assume that I watched an entirely different version of the movie to these people.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 06 October, 2020, 09:29:40 PM
I have to self-center my current affairs consumption (comedy or not) at the moment for the preservation of sanity. I glanced at the BBC front page yesterday to see Trump standing in front of some flames with the headline: "No need to panic!" and it was like I'd accidentally stumbled into the 7th circle of hell.

When will it end?

---

Oh, sorry - we were talking about comedy. Ha!
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 06 October, 2020, 10:37:36 PM
No-one is "against comedy", they're against how some jokes are used to launder ideological assertions, IE: how Paddy Irishman jokes reinforce ethnic supremacy narratives, or "I identify as an attack helicopter" jokes reinforce that the person saying them is an unfunny twat.
A call for a moment's thought about who the target of your humor might be is not too much to ask.  If kids can manage the most basic empathy checks, then so can old farts like us.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 07 October, 2020, 09:43:59 AM
You see this sort of thing a lot where rightwingers say things like 'You couldn't make The Producers or Blazing Saddles these days because Political Correctness'. Well, yes you completely could.

This is my (otherwise perfectly decent, forward-thinking) father-in-law's favourite line in conversation, a long list of 'things they wouldn't let you do nowadays', despite his own son working in the telly & film industry making things that are as strong or stronger.

I really do think it's largely a matter of age conferring a particular perspective, with opportunist blabbermouths and pretend journos exploiting that demographic for clicks.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: CalHab 07 October, 2020, 09:51:11 AM
I think for the most part this is quite true.  I would like to stick my neck out, my head in the lion's jaw, above the parapet and so forth and suggest MASH as a possible exception.  I'm currently on a re-viewing at about season 4. 

Given its tendency to tackle racial prejudice, homophobia and the treatment of natives by American armed forces, there is little that would be overly problematic to a modern audience.  Possibly the objectification of women, but even there that is called out for what it is.

Can't think of many others that can make such a claim.

The treatment of "Hot Lips" Houlihan in the film is certainly an issue. I don't think the TV series was nearly as bad, though. You'll know better, though, it's ages since I watched it!
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Barrington Boots 07 October, 2020, 01:57:47 PM
I always think for jokes one should punch up rather than punch down.

I don't watch a lot of sitcoms so my reference is primarily ones when I was a kid, but I'm willing to bet stuff like Terry and June has aged badly. I reckon though that a really good comedy show should capture a bit of zeitgiest, so they're bound to wind up out of date as societal attitudes change.

Sometimes it's context. My wife had never watched the film Trading Places and when I showed it to her last new years I was rather embarrassed to find it contained a number of homphobic comments - but they're completely superflous to the context of the film and you can still enjoy it with little more than a wince about how things were in the 80s.

Generally though I think the idea of 'cancel culture' doesn't really exist outside the minds of objectionable sorts who don't like being told they can't enjoy their casual racism anymore, and I think a lot of the stuff they hate is driven by corporate box ticking exercises. A lot of us lefties want to see a better society but I'm pretty sure BLM protestors don't care about Fawlty Towers being taken off Amazon Prime.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Rately 07 October, 2020, 02:08:28 PM
I see that one of the biggest arseholes on Twitter, b-list Actor and "Fierce Liberal" and all round racist arsehole who rails against the 'woke' among us is reaching the end of what appears to be a very self-destructive period with litigation after throwing Paedophile around as an insult.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 07 October, 2020, 04:51:32 PM
Frankly, I find most sit-coms date very badly. Friends is cringeworthy now, and so so white (not least given where it’s set). I don’t see much in the way of cancelling—it’s just people saying they don’t want to give any time to a specific thing, and people who like that specific thing getting in a huff. (Front vs. Fox shows this in microcosm.)

As for woke, I got called it on Facebook. Someone was thinking of subscribing to The Beano. Some bloke said it’s rubbish now, and not a patch on the GOOD OLD DAYS. I noted that I thought the modern Beano was far superior in writing and I also liked the fact it’s inclusive. For that, I was branded woke. Apparently, I deserve that for being happy my daughter has a comic to read where Dennis isn’t a massive arsehole (and is instead streetwise), there are actual girls in it, there are a few (although not many) people of more diverse backgrounds, and where some of the extremely problematic characterisation of e.g. Walter has been replaced by something a lot smarter.

It depends on the sit-com.  I mean shit like Fresh Fields was dated then but things like The Young Ones, The New Statesman and so on, they definitely are of a time but they are still funny.

I was never a fan of Friends but I don't think it being white is a problem in the same way Seinfeld isn't.  That's just what the show was at the time.  But people did try to cancel it (in that ineffective Twitter kind of way) a year or two ago and if they could have had it banned somehow, they would.  They don't have the power but maybe one day they will.  Eventually enough people moan and comedy disappears.

I just watched a film yesterday that was an allegory for the white middle classes gentrifying black neighbourhoods.  The black kids in the film were the heroes, the whites were literally blood sucking vampires.  It was a brilliant film though so I'm not going to start thinking it was anti-white.  It's just what worked for the story.

Friends was about six friends.  Not six klan members.  They made some dated gay jokes and yeah, that's just the tax you pay mentally to watch old comedy but it doesn't make the comedy worse.  David Schwimmer might have made the comedy worse though.

Things just get analysed a bit too much these days.  I recently watched Lethal Weapon and it had two really out of place anti-gay comments, almost throwaway.  Didn't help or add to the story in any way. I don't want the film cut and I don't want it cancelled but it just tells me that the '80s were different.  In the same way that people in the '80s apparently smoked in offices.  Weird, not the way to do it now but that's just how it was.

I don't support cancelling the film from all existence but I'm happy that we won't see the likes of that in a film going forward although I do think we'll start to see more moments in films that put in the opposite like a gay kiss or a pop at the 'fragile white, male ego' in a similarly throwaway way but I'm sure that in a few decades time that'll be seen as weird and everyone will have found a balance where everyone is cool and sex/race doesn't matter.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Modern Panther 07 October, 2020, 05:46:25 PM
one of the biggest arseholes on Twitter

Said arsehole has managed to get himself represented by a rather big PR firm with contacts in government and major media outlets, resulting in a few too many articles.  The money is coming from somewhere.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 07 October, 2020, 06:18:40 PM
Didn't "ban Friends" turn out to be a bunch of right-wing shit-stirring, though?  The critiques I've seen from the left actually defend the show's lack of diversity as a commentary on New York's racially-segregated housing policies that guaranteed that up to a certain generation, races didn't mix socially in the city as a matter of geography rather than ideology.  Later attempts at diversity on the show were actually critiqued pretty harshly because they reinforced the siege mentality of white New Yorkers by portraying black women and interracial dating as a source of tension between whites.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 07 October, 2020, 06:20:19 PM
Lots of things to unpack, so I'm going to choose the ever-popular method of taking each in turn...

They don't have the power but maybe one day they will.

The slippery slope argument. There's a similar one about trans people doing nefarious things in public restrooms. There's no evidence for it, but it's a possibility, so we should ban them (goes the hoary logic). Slippery slope! But what if there's not a slippery slope?

I just watched a film yesterday that was an allegory for the white middle classes gentrifying black neighbourhoods.  The black kids in the film were the heroes, the whites were literally blood sucking vampires ... I'm not going to start thinking it was anti-white.

It was anti-white. Or, rather, it was anti-oppression. It just so happens that it's the white folk that are oppressing the black folk. See, if the white folk are doing that, then it's okay to be anti-that. So, it's okay (to an extent, right?) to be anti-white. Anti-oppression.

Friends was about six friends.  Not six klan members.  They made some dated gay jokes and yeah, that's just the tax you pay mentally to watch old comedy but it doesn't make the comedy worse.

It may well have made the "comedy" worse for gay viewers or their friends, though. So, it did make the "comedy" worse. If the butt of your joke is ... well, the butt of your joke, then it's not funny for them, necessarily. That doesn't mean they have no sense of humour - it means they're being treated like shit. (Wanting people to laugh while one is treating them like shit is , at the least, very controlling. Definitely abusive.)

Things just get analysed a bit too much these days.  I recently watched Lethal Weapon and it had two really out of place anti-gay comments ... the '80s were different ... people in the '80s ... smoked in offices.

The idea that shitty behavior is just weird is ... weird. Smoking in offices damaged the health of everyone - both the smokers and the non-smokers (who didn't have a choice in the matter). It being banned isn't just a weird happenstance of history - it was a public health issue. It's not all just random lights floating in front of our eyes - there's reason behind it.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 07 October, 2020, 06:52:41 PM
There's an Arthur C Clarke novel - Ghost of the Grand Banks, I think - where the main character's job is to digitally-remove smoking from old movies, as by the early 20th century there'd been a lung cancer epidemic so it had become a really touchy subject.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 07 October, 2020, 07:24:02 PM
Pretty much nothing has been ‘cancelled’, censored or removed. What this means in reality is some people have criticised old shows for various reasons, and people—and, let’s face it, we’re talking some white people—get all annoyed about that. It’s basically the same as that fuckwit on Facebook calling be woke because I like the modern Beano’s inclusive nature rather than Dennis being a bullying shithead, female characters being marginalised, and Walter’s portrayal being deeply problematic. “He dresses up in girls clothes! Let’s KICK THE SHIT OUT OF HIM!”

As for the things were just different argument, it’s not just weird. People were actively hostile towards gay people. Go back not much further and you have the same with black people. In other words, unless you were white and preferably also male and fairly wealthy, you were shat on. What people today mistake for preferential treatment is an attempt to make everyone equal. And Friends, like a lot of other comedy, was very much a product of its time, notably faring very poorly in modern eyes when it comes to gay and trans characters.

That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t watch it, understanding the context of the time. But I draw the line at people making excuses for it (these ‘jokes’ were nasty, punching down, and from a place of privilege at the time), and certainly making excuses for those kinds of actions/thinking in a more general sense. I suppose that again would have some people calling me woke. Frankly, it’s just having a bit of humanity.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Will Cooling 07 October, 2020, 07:44:48 PM
Surprised no one's mentioned the interesting journey the phrase "woke" has taken

It began as an African-American term, meaning to be awake to the systematic injustices and dangers that a white dominated society posed to black people. It somehow got picked up by white liberals, and became a broader descriptor of being alert to discrimination and bigotry. In my experience, it feels its now became something that is almost only used to mock or insult people. It's basically "political correctness gone mad" for people who spend too much time on Twitter.

Can you query it? Depends what you mean by that. The impulse to breakdown discrimination and bigtory is good and important, but specific examples may take the principle beyond the point of common sense, especially when you're dealing with white-dominated institutions prone to overreact to what an atypical group of activists are saying. A good example is some Americans adopting the word "latinx" as gender neutral term for latino/latina people, something that has increasingly been proven to be incredibly unpopular within that community because it doesn't map onto Spanish. Likewise there's been a lot of backlash towards "defund the police" from African-Americans.

Likewise  there's often good arguments that politicians (more in the states) have become too quick to frame policies in ways that needlessly irritate poorer white voters, where a more traditional class frame would make the policy more popular (casting economic redistribution as a "reparations for slavery" was a good example of this).

And of course there's the argument that a lot of culture war issues are arguing about symbolism which might be interesting to people online, but doesn't actually do much for minorities. A lot of BAME people have expressed irritation that (as they saw it) white liberals steered the conversation on race equality towards statues, rather than actually dealing with the issues they faced.

And finally there is an issue in the UK with people conflating the issues that we face as a country with those that America, a very different country, face. There is obviously racism in Britain, but its not the same as Americas, and adopting the same frame doesn't work. For example, America is more racially segregated than Britain is, and so sometimes their framework doesn't allow for things like Adele donning a Notting Hill Carnival costume as an example of her celebrating the culture of where she grew up. 

So yeah, it would be silly to go along with every "woke" argument. But you can disagree about particulars without losing sight of the need to address the systematic issues that people face in the UK and other countries.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 07 October, 2020, 09:30:16 PM
: Funt Solo
link=topic=46939.msg1040848#msg1040848
date=1602091219


: repoman
link=topic=46939.msg1040841#msg1040841
date=1602085892
I just watched a film yesterday that was an allegory for the white middle classes gentrifying black neighbourhoods. The black kids in the film were the heroes, the whites were literally blood sucking vampires ... I'm
not going to start thinking it was anti white.


It was anti-white. Or, rather, it was anti-
oppression. It just so happens that it's the white folk that are oppressing the black folk. See, if the white folk are doing that, then it's okay to be anti that. So, it's okay (to an extent, right?) to be anti-white. Anti- oppression.



I'm with you at the beginning, that it's okay to be anti-oppression. But I start to feel uncomfortable when oppression and skin colour are conflated. One only has to mention Rwanda or China to remember that oppressors come in all colours.

Does it really matter whether it's white oppression or black oppression, and what colour the oppressor and which the oppressed? Indeed, does attaching a colour to the crime somehow alter its flavour in the public consciousness? Does white oppression sound any different than black oppression? I guess the tears are just as salty, in any case. In considering arguments such as this I personally find it useful to replace words like black or white (or refugee or asylum seeker or soldier or politician) with the word "human," which often affords a sliver of extra perspective.

In my view, then, I don't think it's okay to be anti-white oppressor or anti-black oppressor because it allows racism to ride the coat tails of reason. Anti-oppressor or anti-human oppressor (the second one, I guess, so the anti-meat guys can go after the farmers with the first), sure. Be that.

I'm not having a go, the concept of labels and symbols is quite fascinating. The way movements concentrate and conflate symbols and labels intrigues me. The idea of trying to legitimise a bad label (racism) by sticking it onto a good one (anti-oppression) is not one that fills me with optimism.

TL;DR - Movements are flesh-bound buckets containing labels representing simplified ideas congealed around a basic theme into which people too busy to think for themselves can reach in order to select the ones which most appeal to their emotional requirements.

STL;SDR - Movements are generally shit.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 07 October, 2020, 09:51:05 PM
Anti-white oppression, is what I was trying to say, in my muddled, half-arsed way. You can cut it down to anti-oppression, but the context of the discussion at that point revolved around white privilege, so not mentioning the word white seems like introducing an elephant into the room.

You sometimes get arguments along the lines of: "Black Lives Matter is racist", that are deliberately (or idiotically) missing the point.

It's not an even playing field, which is why black folk get to use the n-word and white folk don't / shouldn't. Some people cite that as unfair, but it's the unfairness that already exists that makes it okay.

So, it was okay, in context, for the movie to portray the blood-sucking vampires as white. It's always about the context.

---

(I'm not suggesting that white folk should be eliminated, but then, it's not white folk who are being choked out by their own police force in broad daylight. And, to take it down a notch in terms of outcomes, it's not white folk who are being continually questioned about why they are there, when there is their place of work (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-54281111).)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 08 October, 2020, 12:01:35 AM

I think I've blundered into three arguments here - the artistic, the real, and the ideal.

In terms of the artistic argument, I have none. If the point of the fantasy is to comment on some present aspect of society then sure, have at it - white vampires; no problem. An army of them. An empire of them. Artistically, it's all good as far as I'm concerned - counting, as I do, Iron Sky as one of the guiltiest of my guilty pleasures.

In the real world, yes, it's a mess. A Gordian Knot of timelines so closely entangled that they're choking each other. There's very little reason in it, and way too much blind faith. Too many people too angry, or too afraid, to do anything to even consider the galactically distant possibility of getting ready to entertain the notion of maybe pondering the chances of an initial approach to the idea of thinking about maybe letting all this crap drop and moving on, for f*ck's sake. So instead they continue to shout at one another, and over one another, and past one another. And reason battles emotion on yet another front - which might just be the war mankind's been fighting with itself since achieving self-awareness. It can't be solved by reason alone and neither alone by emotion.

Lastly, my old Mistress Nemesis the Ideal - or the ideal as I see it. "No, no, no," I cry, "look at it this way - if you look at it this way, it makes sense." Then you all tell me to f*ck off and hilarity ensues - but hold; not this time. Just stfu and listen, because if you look at it this way, it actually makes sense.

If I had a magic wand which could, in the most ideal of ideal worlds, eradicate racism then I'd use it. I think it's counterproductive, it's dangerous, it's barbaric and it's immoral. But I can't banish it from the world. What I can do is try to banish it from my world. This leaves me open to the criticism of ignoring the realities of a subject, often entirely justified as that's exactly what I am doing - trying to dig down a little bit further, to take things apart. Here, I was faffing about trying to decouple "white" (and "black") from "oppressor" because the colour of an oppressor, on a purely intellectual level, is of no consequence. The bullet doesn't care whose finger's on the trigger. To decouple one from the other seems to me a good way to focus on what it means to be an oppressor without the distortion of a coloured lens of any hue. Which is not to say that racism is not a driving factor in the real world - just like geography, sociology and economics - but the trait of oppressor, whilst no doubt influenced by many factors, stands apart from them all; even racism, which is an evil unto itself.

TL;DR - Whilst race may be a factor in oppression, oppression is not always a result of racism and the human race will continue to war upon itself as colour agin colour and sex agin sex and me agin thee until The Blessed Day when Lord Sir Most High John Lennon is made God of Earth and Imagine the global anthem. Then we might have a chance.

STL;SDR - Racism bad, oppression worse.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 08 October, 2020, 11:57:35 AM
Was it a millionaire who said "imagine no possessions"?
A poor little schoolboy who said "we don't need no lessons"?
The pop princess is downtown shooting up
And if that goddess is fit for burning
The sun will struggle up
The world will still keep turning.



Little bit of Godders* there for the regulars, nice memory to start the day.

*By way of Declan MacManus OBE (1991).
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 09 October, 2020, 02:22:51 PM
What you don't want to get into is a list of what we can and can't tell jokes about.

I don't like the idea that as a rule comedy has to 'punch up' because comedy shouldn't have rules as such.  It should just be funny.  Picking on certain targets just doesn't lend itself to comedy which is why Jim Davidson is shit but if a comedian can craft funny material out of a topic and it works for humour's sake and not out of some sort of cruel intention, then maybe it should stand for itself.  Buyer beware I guess.

I went to see Jerry Sadowitz a few years back and it was a rough ride but that was the act and it was funny.  That needs to be protected as much as the feelings of woke people.  Especially as woke people more often than not are white young adults with nothing to complain in their own lives (if you've got an iPhone to tweet angrily from then your life isn't exactly in the gutter).  They can't be marginalised but they can get angry about BLM, trans rights and so on.  Even though they are doing more of the complaining than any black or trans person. 

Indeed I've known a few people online who seemed to become SJWs overnight and suddenly that was their entire persona when prior to that there was no sign of it.  People just get drawn to things I guess.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 09 October, 2020, 02:30:50 PM
You’re so wrong that I don’t know where to start. Are you trolling?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Barrington Boots 09 October, 2020, 02:37:55 PM
I don't like the idea that as a rule comedy has to 'punch up' because comedy shouldn't have rules as such. 

I definitely don't think there should be rules or anything in comedy. A lot of the things I'm really interested in are fairly extreme in their content and I'm a big opponent of censorship on the whole. I just think that punching down when making a joke isn't comedy, it's just really cruel behaviour.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 09 October, 2020, 02:41:16 PM
You’re so wrong that I don’t know where to start. Are you trolling?
I’m wondering that. There are no ‘rules’ to comedy. But there are trends. No-one has ‘cancelled’ Jim Davidson. It’s just that his always slightly dodgy routines fell totally out of fashion and so he became more extreme and is now Mr Why Can’t I Be Racist And Do Blackface, complaining about SJWs.

Also, quite why repoman feels that relatively well-off white people can’t be angry about the rights of oppressed  minorities baffles me. Without people giving a shit about those who are worse off, it’s much harder for things to get better.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 09 October, 2020, 03:17:04 PM
Without wishing to rise to the bait if this is trolling, there's a difference between Jim Davison being 'cancelled' and Jim Davison being outdated, shite and as such largely ignored.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 09 October, 2020, 03:36:03 PM
Indeed I've known a few people online who seemed to become SJWs overnight and suddenly that was their entire persona when prior to that there was no sign of it.  People just get drawn to things I guess.

A female creator I was following suddenly started saying it wasn't cool to send her rape threats or say that you hope the breast cancer kills her.  She literally tweets about nothing else now except her far left political agenda and it just came out of nowhere.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Modern Panther 09 October, 2020, 03:50:36 PM
I can understand why people might want to treat others with basic decency, but can't they do it in the privacy of their own home rather than shoving basic decency down our throats at every opportunity? Can't turn on the TV nowadays without getting a face full of mutual respect and not calling for genocide. I blame the BBC.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 09 October, 2020, 04:35:09 PM
...if you've got an iPhone to tweet angrily from then your life isn't exactly in the gutter. 

The only people who absolutely need a smart phone are homeless people.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 09 October, 2020, 04:39:15 PM
A female creator I was following suddenly started saying it wasn't cool to send her rape threats or say that you hope the breast cancer kills her. 

On one level I'm tempted to remark that being offended at being sent rape or death threats is such a 'snowflake' reaction ...  then again considering that MP's in this country have seen those death threats translate into action, perhaps that is the sort of joke that might be in poor taste, even if it is being sarcastic.

As for Jim Davidson, I'm not sure he has ever been anything other than "outdated, s**** and as such largely ignored" ... Granted he's had a big following amongst certain sections of the army but considering that the intellectual calibre of those sections is slightly smaller than that of their weaponry that really isn't saying much.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 09 October, 2020, 04:49:49 PM
...if you've got an iPhone to tweet angrily from then your life isn't exactly in the gutter. 

The only people who absolutely need a smart phone are homeless people.

Still amazes me that there are people who think "you have an iPhone therefore you cannot be poor or a member of an oppressed group" is a thing that should be said out loud.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sintec 09 October, 2020, 05:27:11 PM
A female creator I was following suddenly started saying it wasn't cool to send her rape threats or say that you hope the breast cancer kills her.  She literally tweets about nothing else now except her far left political agenda and it just came out of nowhere.

I mean it's not cool to do either of those things. I imagine that by speaking out she's hoping to raise awareness that this toxic bullshit is still normal for many women working in creative industries and that that is not ok and she's fed up with quietly putting up with it. What to you "came out of nowhere" may well be a reaction to something that's been ongoing for her throughout her career.

I don't think holding the opinion that sending rape threats and death threats is not OK is a far left agenda. That's just expecting people to treat each other with a basic level of respect and decency.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 09 October, 2020, 05:56:16 PM
You’re so wrong that I don’t know where to start. Are you trolling?



I believe fully in equality and fairness and I've never knowingly oppressed a person because of their gender, race or sexuality because that would be insane and twatty but I also think that certain art forms (music, film, comedy, comics) shouldn't have to pander to SJW values because instead of being a nice lefty thing, it feels more like a puritanical thing.

And as for my iphone comment, yes sure it's not a hard and fast rule and I'm making a generalisation but there is definitely a sense that if you're young and you want to be outraged, then picking a subject to be outraged about is pretty easy these days even if you aren't directly affected by it.  It just feels all a bit Mary Whitehouse to me.  That was my point.

But here's the thing, no matter how you phrase it (and I've tried to be moderate and considered), if you take a stance that isn't fully on SJW Twitter compatible, you get weird responses like the above.  I mean this post is probably pissing one of you off now, not that that is my intention.

So, in answer to the topic subject line.  No, we're not.  I guess.   
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 09 October, 2020, 05:59:52 PM
A female creator I was following suddenly started saying it wasn't cool to send her rape threats or say that you hope the breast cancer kills her.  She literally tweets about nothing else now except her far left political agenda and it just came out of nowhere.

I mean it's not cool to do either of those things. I imagine that by speaking out she's hoping to raise awareness that this toxic bullshit is still normal for many women working in creative industries and that that is not ok and she's fed up with quietly putting up with it. What to you "came out of nowhere" may well be a reaction to something that's been ongoing for her throughout her career.

I don't think holding the opinion that sending rape threats and death threats is not OK is a far left agenda. That's just expecting people to treat each other with a basic level of respect and decency.

I feel like I've reached a milestone in my forum-life in realizing that Professor Bear was doing some satire there. (Usually it's me that doesn't catch on.)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 09 October, 2020, 06:08:46 PM
You’re so wrong that I don’t know where to start. Are you trolling?
So, in answer to the topic subject line.  No, we're not.  I guess.

I think you absolutely are - it's just that it felt a bit troll-like, that's all. Like, you keep using the blanket term SJW, which is pejorative. It's a text stick with which to beat people.

The idea that if you support BLM you have to be black, or maybe be white but under a certain income bracket is, frankly, a fucking weird stance to take. And your continued supposition that anyone who supports BLM (that's white and over a certain income bracket) is the equivalent of a puritanical OAP from decades ago is also weird. It doesn't make any sense.

What the fuck has Mary Whitehouse got to do with folk complaining about violent and oppressive racism? (That's rhetorical, of course, because there's no link.)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sintec 09 October, 2020, 07:18:27 PM
I feel like I've reached a milestone in my forum-life in realizing that Professor Bear was doing some satire there. (Usually it's me that doesn't catch on.)

Entirely possible my sarcasm/satire filter is broken.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: radiator 09 October, 2020, 07:30:13 PM
You’re so wrong that I don’t know where to start. Are you trolling?



I believe fully in equality and fairness and I've never knowingly oppressed a person because of their gender, race or sexuality because that would be insane and twatty but I also think that certain art forms (music, film, comedy, comics) shouldn't have to pander to SJW values because instead of being a nice lefty thing, it feels more like a puritanical thing.

Pandering and puritanical in what way?

Do you mean representation? Like people getting bent out of shape that the new Star Wars movies are a bit more diverse in terms of cast and put a woman front and center?

Something worth remembering is that while it's political to promote diversity, doing the opposite - not going out of your way to be inclusive and have representation - is every bit as political and 'pandering' an act.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Modern Panther 09 October, 2020, 07:32:33 PM
What are the "SJW values" that artists have to pander to, beyond not being hateful to minority groups and women?

Even being hateful, although out of fashion, is so welcomed by a vocal minority of consumers that there's definite money to be made in the field.
 Swathes of bigots make a fortune by telling their audiences "I'm not allowed to say this...the Woke will come after me.".
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 09 October, 2020, 07:53:45 PM
Still amazes me that there are people who think "you have an iPhone therefore you cannot be poor or a member of an oppressed group" is a thing that should be said out loud.
The same kind of idiots who have a go at people on benefits having the sheer audacity to own a “flatscreen TV”, as if 1) you can actually get CRTs for non-silly money these days, and 2) anyone with little shouldn’t have any entertainment at all. I mean, come on.

certain art forms (music, film, comedy, comics) shouldn't have to pander to SJW values because instead of being a nice lefty thing, it feels more like a puritanical thing
It’s a good job that this literally doesn’t happen then.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 09 October, 2020, 10:27:48 PM
It’s a good job that this literally doesn’t happen then.

Great! 

I guess there isn't a conversation to be had.  It's all fine then. :)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 09 October, 2020, 11:41:36 PM
Ah sorry.  That was snippy.

This is too emotive a topic.  It is difficult because a discussion can't really be had, it's too polarising.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 09 October, 2020, 11:51:57 PM
...  It is difficult because a discussion can't really be had...

I think the ten pages and premise of this thread say otherwise.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sintec 09 October, 2020, 11:57:32 PM
certain art forms (music, film, comedy, comics) shouldn't have to pander to SJW values because instead of being a nice lefty thing, it feels more like a puritanical thing.

I think this is actually the result of these artforms being commodified by huge corporate multi-nationals. The kind of organisations that subject everything to focus groups and are trying to second guess what'll make them the most $s. Imo that's more the result of changes in how we consume media and the consolidation of the companies providing it than it is a concerted campaign by Social Justice Warriors. There's plenty of exciting, controversial art/film/music/comedy out there still but you have to actively hunt it down. The days of the big pop culture spectacle are waning.

But here's the thing, no matter how you phrase it (and I've tried to be moderate and considered), if you take a stance that isn't fully on SJW Twitter compatible, you get weird responses like the above.   

Twitter does seem to be the home of the perpetually offended - from both sides of almost any argument. I find it best to just avoid that shit show entirely by paying it as little attention as possible. From my perspective it seems to be populated by a small but very vocal miniority of society who just like to shout at each other.

On the flip side I have been frustrated by some discussions in a lockdown film group I've been part of. Films picks from the 70s & 80s have resulted in some push back from those offended by the language/morals of the era. There's a bit of me that wants to point out that it's not like we're forcing Roy Chubby Brown or Jim Davidson on them. If The Breakfast Club upsets them then there's huge swathes of my music/book/art/comic collection that it's probably best they go nowhere near. But it's not like they're taking any of that media away from me, I'm still free to enjoy that art and much of it is more available than ever if you seek it out.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 10 October, 2020, 12:05:01 AM
certain art forms (music, film, comedy, comics) shouldn't have to pander to SJW values because instead of being a nice lefty thing, it feels more like a puritanical thing
It’s a good job that this literally doesn’t happen then.

But it does. SJW is a translation of 中國共產黨, yes?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 10 October, 2020, 12:26:53 AM
Who decided social justice was a bad thing anyway?  Genuinely curious.  Is social INjustice considered something worth preserving?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JamesC 10 October, 2020, 07:30:13 AM
A female creator I was following suddenly started saying it wasn't cool to send her rape threats or say that you hope the breast cancer kills her. 

As for Jim Davidson, I'm not sure he has ever been anything other than "outdated, s**** and as such largely ignored" ... Granted he's had a big following amongst certain sections of the army but considering that the intellectual calibre of those sections is slightly smaller than that of their weaponry that really isn't saying much.

It might be worth noting that Jim Davidson won New Faces - the Britain's Got Talent of its day - with an act about his black mate, 'Chalky'. He was absolutely 100% mainstream in the late 70s/early 80s. Even in the 90s he was presenting Big Break and The Generation Game as one of the BBCs highest paid stars. This translated to bums-on-seats at his annual season-long residency at the theatre in Great Yarmouth. His live show was famously racist and sexist (and he had a reputation for being very 'hands on' with the dancers, and as being a surly drunk in the bar after the show). You couldn't help but feel that the BBC (and by extension, the establishment) was endorsing him.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Rately 10 October, 2020, 07:38:03 AM
A female creator I was following suddenly started saying it wasn't cool to send her rape threats or say that you hope the breast cancer kills her. 

As for Jim Davidson, I'm not sure he has ever been anything other than "outdated, s**** and as such largely ignored" ... Granted he's had a big following amongst certain sections of the army but considering that the intellectual calibre of those sections is slightly smaller than that of their weaponry that really isn't saying much.

It might be worth noting that Jim Davidson won New Faces - the Britain's Got Talent of its day - with an act about his black mate, 'Chalky'. He was absolutely 100% mainstream in the late 70s/early 80s. Even in the 90s he was presenting Big Break and The Generation Game as one of the BBCs highest paid stars. This translated to bums-on-seats at his annual season-long residency at the theatre in Great Yarmouth. His live show was famously racist and sexist (and he had a reputation for being very 'hands on' with the dancers, and as being a surly drunk in the bar after the show). You couldn't help but feel that the BBC (and by extension, the establishment) was endorsing him.

I grew up with him hosting Big Break, so had no idea what an arse he was till many years later. From what I've seen and read over the last few years, i think we can certify him as a gammony gammon.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 10 October, 2020, 08:09:03 AM
...  It is difficult because a discussion can't really be had...

I think the ten pages and premise of this thread say otherwise.

It isn't like anyone is changing their mind though and there's a lot of passive aggressiveness.  It's not really a good discussion.  It never is though.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tiplodocus 10 October, 2020, 08:57:40 AM
I think I've read a few things in this discussion that have helped clarify areas of confusion for me and convinced me what the correct course of action should be. So it has helped me.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 10 October, 2020, 09:51:02 AM
To clarify, my point earlier was in response to the notion mediums HAVE to pander to ‘SJW’ views. Aside from SJW in itself being language weaponised by angry white men, no medium HAS to do anything—decisions made are choices primarily driven by popular demand and occasionally by moral reasoning. What people are mistaking for cancellation is instead decision making based on a direction of travel away from racism and jokes about shitty things to inclusivity. That doesn’t stop people doing shows or routines on those things—it just reduces their opportunities for mainstream release.

And ultimately, THAT is what all this comes down to. When we see right-wingers whining about no longer having free speech, they’re actually using their free speech to whine. What they really mean is they should be able to say or do whatever they like without consequence and criticism and also that people should have to listen to them at least equally to everyone else. This line of thinking extends to people like Davidson, who blames ‘SJWs’ for taking away his opportunities when he not only decided to avoid realigning his act with changing tastes, but then made it more counter. That gives him a hardline core that works for smaller clubs, but means he won’t be on the BBC. Too bad.

As for changing minds, why would we? My little girl is growing up in a world where most media—including children’s books and shows—is still heavily geared towards boys and where toys and activities are increasingly carved out by gender. Moves towards inclusivity are welcomed by me, because I want her to have choice and opportunity. And also, when she reads a comic, why shouldn’t she have people like her in them? I so often hear that “well, the thing is, girls will read about boys but boys just won’t read about girls”. Why? That is a failure of society that needs addressing—that notion men are more important and women are weak/background/to be readily dismissed in swathes of culture.

So, yeah, I’m not going to cry for Jim Davidson not getting a prime time telly spot and I’m going to cheer that The Beano now has a few extra female characters. The isn’t woke. This is being happy about a step in the direction of more inclusivity and less hate, but all mediums are still a long, long way from anything that would be considered remotely representative.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 10 October, 2020, 10:13:27 AM
It isn't like anyone is changing their mind though and there's a lot of passive aggressiveness.  It's not really a good discussion.  It never is though.

There's a fair point here.  Possibly one of the reasons for the 'passive aggression' is that there are so many presumptions bundled up in a lot of the debate.

So one of my personal concerns around the BLM events of the summer is that it generated some discomfort around the idea of 'white privelage'.  To me it felt like there was a generalisation that if you are white, male and middle aged then you have better chances.  Now I would agree with this to a certain extent.  Compared to the sort of prejudice experienced by a lot of other social groups this is probably accurate.

What I would also argue though is that this is not a universal truth.  Social, educational, health, wealth and plenty of other inequalities apply just as easily to white men.  Ethnic minority individuals can display racial prejudice just as easily as well.  Yet there are times when such arguments can be shouted down incredibly aggressively.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that the level of prejudice experienced by every group is taken to the same extreme.  If you are white and male you still stand a far better chance far often than other ethnic groups, even if you don't share the 'privileged' characteristics of the most successful groups.  Rather I would suggest that it might be worth considering why some have difficulties with this discussion.

As for the changing of minds, this is not a quick process at the best of times.  Lasting change is not superficial, it takes time.  Is it a 'good' discussion to be had?  I would say yes precisely because of the 'passive aggression'.  Thoughts need to be aired, recognised, analysed and challenged.  If my thinking is unpalatable and inappropriate then it needs to be corrected.  If it isn't exposed then that is not going to happen.

At the moment we are stuck in echo chambers far too much.  Even here there is an extent to which that is true.  What I personally have always found helpful though is that in addition to the membership actually being from a fairly broad church there is also a high degree of tolerance for diversity of opinion.  We might tackle ideas passionately but ideas are aired.

Ten pages in this is still a fairly respectful and tolerant discussion.  That is surely a good thing, no?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Modern Panther 10 October, 2020, 10:20:36 AM


Thought Police: Are we allowed to query people who query "woke"?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 10 October, 2020, 10:54:06 AM
Tjm makes a great point. So much of the 'all lives matter' and anti-feminism nonsense I see online,  and even in talking to real people, comes down to misunderstanding that 'white/male privilege' does not mean that you personally, random white male, are having an easy ride through life. And people expressing this mistaken belief are often aggressively shouted down, which can only harden their views. I know why, I do it myself, but it isn't helping change hearts and minds.

If there was any effective way of getting that across, that people all over are being shat on by a broken world order, and that addressing racism, sexism, gender-criticism, are just individual (if enormous) dimensions of the change that's needed...
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 10 October, 2020, 10:55:20 AM
So one of my personal concerns around the BLM events of the summer is that it generated some discomfort around the idea of 'white privelage'.  To me it felt like there was a generalisation that if you are white, male and middle aged then you have better chances.
Well, in some senses you literally do. For a start, in the USA, where this all originated, you are significantly less likely to be shot and killed by the police. (Similarly, in the UK, black people are far more likely to be stopped and searched.) Does that mean there aren’t poor and destitute white people with poor prospects? Of course not. But when you align ‘equivalent’ people at every level of society, white men are almost always going to be out in front at that level, in front of women and those of a BAME background.

Much of the pushback against BLM and similar movements is white people not wishing to lose their privilege, and very often wealthy white men doing what they always do and setting everyone else against each other. Heck, look at that in the UK. Rich white arseholes are laughing all the way to the bank because the managed to create a vicious culture war from a subject that barely anyone remotely cared about ten years ago (the EU).
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 10 October, 2020, 11:16:35 AM
This is all fine and absolutely true, but does not make sense to the individual that is experiencing hardship.  It puts me in mind of my Dad trying to address my depression by telling me to cheer up because other people have it much worse. Well-meaning,  factually correct, but having the opposite effect to that intended.

'Easier in aggregate' does not mean 'easy for you'.

There has to be a way of engaging everyone in the bottom 90% of society in a desire for change.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 10 October, 2020, 11:25:43 AM
And that’s the problem. It seems absurdly easy for the ruling class to pit everyone against each other, every single time.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Rately 10 October, 2020, 11:50:35 AM
This is all fine and absolutely true, but does not make sense to the individual that is experiencing hardship.  It puts me in mind of my Dad trying to address my depression by telling me to cheer up because other people have it much worse. Well-meaning,  factually correct, but having the opposite effect to that intended.

'Easier in aggregate' does not mean 'easy for you'.

There has to be a way of engaging everyone in the bottom 90% of society in a desire for change.

To my eternal shame, i have been guilty of having said this to people in my life. Out of anger, out of exasperation. Whatever, it shouldn't have been said. A lot more could be learned by just listening to the person, and realising that a trite comment won't solve anything.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 10 October, 2020, 12:55:24 PM


: IndigoPrime
link=topic=46939.msg1041048#msg1041048
date=1602325543
And that’s the problem. It seems absurdly easy for the ruling class to pit everyone against each other, every single time.

Exactly. Divide and rule. Simples.

They're running out of tricks, though. At first rulers claimed to be gods, then claimed to be chosen by God, then claimed to be natural rulers chosen by genetics, then natural rulers chosen by everyone else. The fact is that rulers have always believed themselves to be superior to the ruled and, far worse, the ruled have always believed themselves to be inferior to the rulers.

To keep us all from questioning our "responsibility to be ruled," we are given many movements and organisations to choose from; everything from Labour or Conservative to BLM or KKK. Some divisions, such as the political parties, are provided from above while grass-roots movements are infiltrated and hijacked, or simply sabotaged, when they start to get popular. The overwhelming majority of movements proceed from the selfsame flawed premise - that You cannot be trusted to understand, think, or act properly, and that You need to be ruled.

You can and you don't.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 10 October, 2020, 01:08:50 PM
There can be a degree of meanness and hypocrisy these days from the slightly further left.  For example it seems to be acceptable to post 'all men are trash' (along with the whole 'not all men' thing) or to use 'white' in a negative way.  Does it bother me that much or ruin my day?  Nope, of course not but I can notice the hypocrisy of it.  I wouldn't call it out because at that point you're triggered gammon which for me is something you'd attribute more to dickhead EDL supporters going on about Tommy Robinson or some nonsense.

It's not really the message that's the problem.  I don't hugely disagree with Indy P and, of course, I hope that girls do have every opportunity to do and be whatever they want.  But sometimes it's the way it is said.

I mean I voted to stay in Europe and I wouldn't ever vote Tory but I did see a lot of 'if you vote Leave you're a c**t' stuff leading up to the vote.  That's just not helpful.  In the same way that someone might say that Joe Rogan (for example) is a Nazi.  It's the extremeness of it that doesn't help.  I mean I'm not a Joe Rogan fan but given that my grandfather was forced to dig his own grave and was executed by Nazi soldiers, it's a bit inappropriate just because he might have interviewed some people who have views that are towards the right.



Thought Police: Are we allowed to query people who query "woke"?

I know it's a throwaway comment so forgive me for picking up on it but this isn't unexpected.  In the same way that the further left might use snowflake and triggered which were words often directed at them, it's easy to take some of the concerns directed at "the thought police" and reflect them right back.  It does seem to be par for the course.

The thing is, I consider myself to be on the left but if you really try to debate these things you end up being put in the same camp as white power transphobe skinhead types where instead you just want to note that the balance isn't quite right.  So it's easier to say nothing.  Indeed this is probably the first time I've had a discussion about this and it's not been a ton of fun.  Nothing too serious or whatever but it's definitely more fun talking about TV and film stuff!
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 10 October, 2020, 01:20:34 PM
It might be worth noting that Jim Davidson won New Faces - the Britain's Got Talent of its day - with an act about his black mate, 'Chalky'. He was absolutely 100% mainstream in the late 70s/early 80s. Even in the 90s he was presenting Big Break and The Generation Game as one of the BBCs highest paid stars. This translated to bums-on-seats at his annual season-long residency at the theatre in Great Yarmouth. His live show was famously racist and sexist (and he had a reputation for being very 'hands on' with the dancers, and as being a surly drunk in the bar after the show). You couldn't help but feel that the BBC (and by extension, the establishment) was endorsing him.

I grew up with him hosting Big Break, so had no idea what an arse he was till many years later. From what I've seen and read over the last few years, i think we can certify him as a gammony gammon.

This seems to have been my experience with Davidson, too, though I honestly don't hate or despise him like others do, because unlike more contemporary comedians like David Baddiel, Davidson is clearly aware that his act has dated and that he's badly-behaved, while Baddiel flat-out refused to even acknowledge his routines featuring blackface and mental health slurs - social media users spamming him with photographic and video evidence have obviously made that impossible these days, but even now he just dismisses it as "a shutdown tactic" to ask him if he thinks blackface is wrong.

there's a lot of passive aggressiveness.

To be honest, comments like this just make it seem like you're actively looking for a reason to be offended.  BDUM TSSH etc.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 10 October, 2020, 01:28:00 PM
it seems to be acceptable to post 'all men are trash’
The problem is that this kind of phrase very often tends to be used and amplified by white men. The attempt is to weaponise such phrases and normalise the claim that raging feminists hate all men and think all men are awful. Feminism at its core is literally about equality. The majority of those against it don’t like that because they don’t want to lose their built-in advantage. (Or, heaven forbid, boys actually start reading about or watching shows with girls some of the time. Hell, look at the massive shitstorm that happened with Star Wars when they cast four leads, one being a woman and one being black. How will we ever survive now only half of the series leads are white men?)

I did see a lot of 'if you vote Leave you're a c**t' stuff leading up to the vote.  That's just not helpful
I agree entirely, and that continues to this day. Remain lost because positive arguments were never made. Also, although I am reluctant to delve too heavily into the “we must listen to massive racists who want the foreigners out” narrative, people do need to understand the imbalance that exists in this country, which has resulted in nine of the ten most deprived areas in north Europe being in the UK. Natch, the problem is systematic lack of investment from central government, but politicians of all stripes don’t like to talk about that, because it points to their failures. (On Labour’s side, efforts were at least made; on the Tory side, they couldn’t give a fuck about such regions and people—they’re just useful to indoctrinate and weaponise.)

Indeed this is probably the first time I've had a discussion about this and it's not been a ton of fun.  Nothing too serious or whatever but it's definitely more fun talking about TV and film stuff!
Well, serious discussions are serious discussions, and that leads to heat. As an admin, I’ve been keeping a close eye on this thread, and it to my mind has seemed broadly constructive. And you’re right in that there are issues of imbalance across the board, which have since been brought up within the discussion.

I think ultimately that we all need to be a bit careful. It’s too easy to argue that media ‘has’ to pander to specific values, where in reality it’s moving to where the puck is; similarly, we must remember that imbalance and injustice can and does happen to every area within society and do whatever we can to address and fix that. Telling unhappy white working class men they’re all fucking idiots for voting leave or fighting for their own happiness won’t help that. But we do as a country need to radically improve general education regarding the ramifications of decisions that are made, and also more heavily understand across the board the great imbalance in society as a whole.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 10 October, 2020, 01:30:16 PM
while Baddiel flat-out refused to even acknowledge his routines featuring blackface and mental health slurs […] even now he just dismisses it as "a shutdown tactic" to ask him if he thinks blackface is wrong
I wasn’t aware of that, but that’s disappointing from Baddiel. Matt Lucas seems to have a better handle on this, essentially acknowledging how much of Little Britain is no longer OK (and that at the time wasn’t either, but was driven by arrogance). I have less time for Walliams, whose children’s books are racist and classist abominations that I have on good knowledge he does little more than ‘direct’ these days.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 10 October, 2020, 01:42:04 PM
it seems to be acceptable to post 'all men are trash’
The problem is that this kind of phrase very often tends to be used and amplified by white men. The attempt is to weaponise such phrases and normalise the claim that raging feminists hate all men and think all men are awful. Feminism at its core is literally about equality.

I have to admit, I had a girlfriend in my younger days whose feminism went as far as saying women were superior to men - 'they have a lot more to offer', in her words.  This kind of thing again just got my hackles up and made me point out the likes of Thatcher and Queen Victoria, who weren't exactly paragons of social justice.  But I suppose hers was an understandable reaction to centuries of being marginalised, even if I didn't agree.  Which, of course, doesn't mean I don't agree with absolute equality between men and women.  (She also believed that anyone who looks at porn 'despises' women - that's pretty much every man I know, and quite a few women too.)

I did see a lot of 'if you vote Leave you're a c**t' stuff leading up to the vote.  That's just not helpful

Fair point.  Look where the 'basket of deplorables' comment got us.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 10 October, 2020, 02:03:38 PM
As we age, I guess we recognise few positions are absolutes, but also that there are people within any movement that become entrenched and then extreme. Most feminists I know pretty much want equality. End of. Some will occasionally lash out or say snarky stuff about men. But, as you say, that’s understandable from the point of view of people who are still marginalised in a society that often doesn’t recognise that, or assumes that all the work has been done when we’re only a smallish way through the process.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 10 October, 2020, 02:04:23 PM
it seems to be acceptable to post 'all men are trash’
The problem is that this kind of phrase very often tends to be used and amplified by white men. The attempt is to weaponise such phrases and normalise the claim that raging feminists hate all men and think all men are awful. Feminism at its core is literally about equality. The majority of those against it don’t like that because they don’t want to lose their built-in advantage. (Or, heaven forbid, boys actually start reading about or watching shows with girls some of the time. Hell, look at the massive shitstorm that happened with Star Wars when they cast four leads, one being a woman and one being black. How will we ever survive now only half of the series leads are white men?)

Really not looking to pick a fight here I promise!  But that kind of reads like the prevalence of the phrase 'all men are trash' is somehow the fault of white men.  I mean am I doing it right now?

The problem to me, from an equality point of view, is that a number of women are using the phrase very casually and often.  I've certainly seen a lot more of that stuff retweeted in support on my timeline than I ever have seen white men retweeting it angrily.  Which is hopefully an indication that my Twitter feed is more left leaning but even so.

I agree with your definition of feminism there, Indy.  Does that mean people saying 'all men are trash' aren't feminists?  What are they then?  Female sexists?  Sorry this is a bit of a stream of consciousness, but I'm genuinely trying to work it out.

I mean even the fact that you picked out white there seems a bit odd when race isn't in those four words. 

That said I'm the trifecta when it comes to being a mad oppressor of people as I'm white, male and, worst of all, from London (originally).  All of which seem to be sticks to beat you with.  But like I said, I don't vote Tory, I voted to remain, I listen to Fugazi and Propaghandi, my favourite comedian is Stewart Lee and I often bake salted caramel brownies for my elderly neighbours just because.  So I'm pretty sure I'm not a right wing monster.  And I don't think people on the dole should have CRTs unless it's to play ZX Spectrum games on.




 
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 10 October, 2020, 02:30:20 PM
But that kind of reads like the prevalence of the phrase 'all men are trash' is somehow the fault of white men.  I mean am I doing it right now?
That’s not entirely what I mean. To expand on this, you very often hear it from people who get an unrepresentative time in media, who sit at the other end of the extreme. They seek to paint all feminists as man-haters to marginalise the movement, when the reality is it’s only a small and noisy part of that movement who are like that. This them normalises such thinking to the point it ends up as common thinking. That’s not healthy for anyone who 1) wants more equality and progressiveness, and 2) is at the very least reasonable and open in their own thinking.

I agree with your definition of feminism there, Indy.  Does that mean people saying 'all men are trash' aren't feminists?  What are they then?  Female sexists?  Sorry this is a bit of a stream of consciousness, but I'm genuinely trying to work it out.
I guess it depends on one’s interpretation of things. Mine is the classic equality line; it’s not about one-upping someone else. Once someone’s feminism strays into “we want our turn now”, then that’s deeply unhelpful; but it’s also not mainstream thinking anyway. But also, we must be careful when aligning experiences to our own if we’re part of the (relatively) entitled and privileged sector of society.

I mean even the fact that you picked out white there seems a bit odd when race isn't in those four words.
Well, that’s because that’s where the majority of this stuff initially stems from. Most media is owned by white men. The people who control the majority of the world’s richest companies and nations are white men. They ultimately control the agenda, and are deeply influential in general thinking. I mean, we’re even at the point now where men—perfectly decent men—literally cannot recognise balance. There have been scientific experiments on this, sometimes even involving scientists. They’ll time how long women speak in lectures, and ask people to guess percentages. Men invariably massively overestimate the amount of time women speak for, and align any assertiveness with being over-emotional or aggressive (whereas when men do the same, it’s a sign of strength).

In media, women are much more likely to be shown in revealing clothing, but are far less likely to be present. There were those shocking figures from Geena Davis’s research that found crowd scenes in movies had, on average, 17% women in them, and are generally shown on-screen around 30% of the time. Society is roughly 50/50. And yet men will—again when presented with imagery—consider scenes roughly equal when there’s massive disparity, and think there are too many women when a scene is literally split evenly. I see the same issue in everything from games to children’s books. These things are all very pervasive societal problems that point at a greater issue we must all address.

Hence, I do try where possible to avoid the noise and the shouty elements, and put my weight behind those genuinely fighting for any kind of equality. And it doesn’t really matter which. I’ve been slammed online for getting annoyed about things like gender disparity in clothing and toys. “People are fighting wars, you twat” was one memorable response. But the human race can cope with multiple issues; and just because there are big things to fight for, that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t fight for the smaller things, nor that the smaller things—as noted above—aren’t often a hint at bigger societal issues.

And I don't think people on the dole should have CRTs unless it's to play ZX Spectrum games on.
ZX Spectrum? Now you’ve gone too far. Everyone knows the C64 was the best.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 10 October, 2020, 03:02:17 PM

Men are, historically, victims of discrimination too, being the disposable sex. It's men who get forced into uniform to go off and fight, men who are expected to do all the dangerous jobs like mining or firefighting, men who are expected to suffer and sacrifice. When the ship begins to sink the cry goes up, "women and children first!"

Is it wrong of me to think that this is okay? I mean, if women want to work as soldiers, firefighters, or miners, or shout "men and children first!" as the ship goes down then that's also fine by me. Equality is equality, after all.

Further, some women complain about men treating them as sex objects. I agree with those women wholeheartedly - but how many women think it's perfectly fine to treat men as success objects? This also has been going on for a long time; for example, "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife."

But yeah, equality - I'm a big fan of that. Equality goes both ways, though, and to me means simply treating each individual as an individual and not a representative of some abstract group.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 10 October, 2020, 03:46:17 PM
Be mindful those rules were codified and designed by men, who unilaterally decided (in most countries—not all) that women should not—or even could not—do those things. It’s also worth being mindful that the origins and even usage of women and children first are not nearly as clear-cut as you might think (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_children_first).
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Barrington Boots 10 October, 2020, 03:57:32 PM
A lot of whataboutery creeping into this discussion.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 10 October, 2020, 03:59:30 PM
So one of my personal concerns around the BLM events of the summer is that it generated some discomfort around the idea of 'white privelage'.  To me it felt like there was a generalisation that if you are white, male and middle aged then you have better chances.
Well, in some senses you literally do. For a start, in the USA, where this all originated, you are significantly less likely to be shot and killed by the police. (Similarly, in the UK, black people are far more likely to be stopped and searched.) [ ... ]

Much of the pushback against BLM and similar movements is white people not wishing to lose their privilege, and very often wealthy white men doing what they always do and setting everyone else against each other. Heck, look at that in the UK. Rich white arseholes are laughing all the way to the bank because the managed to create a vicious culture war from a subject that barely anyone remotely cared about ten years ago (the EU).

Fair point, and one that I did acknowledge albeit not very clearly.  To call the way that white working class groups have been treated through history 'oppression' to the same extent as other ethnic groups have experienced it is trivialising their experience.

My thing is though that when you look at who has generally been involved in perpetrating these injustices, they have to some extent been 'equally opportunity oppressors' in the sense that they actually don't care to some extent.  So long as they and their ilk are looked after they don't care who they trample on.

Hannah Arendt's analysis of British Imperialism makes for interesting reading as part of this debate.  Maybe there is a case to be made that many of us have become unwitting participants in this issue as we've bought into the exploitation.  There are parallels to be draw with the referendum campaign and its focus on immigration, emphasising the impact of migrant workers whilst glossing over the fact that it is 'rich white arseholes' exploiting wage disparities that is the real issue.

Maybe there is 'whataboutery' here.  Then again, if it is engaged with and evaluated ...
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 10 October, 2020, 04:21:50 PM
On feminism: one half of my broken family revolved around a strong feminism movement in Glasgow.  I remember one poster clearly: "Today's male chauvinist pig is tomorrow's rindless back bacon". My step-mum (or, rather, dad's partner - because at that point in time they had both disavowed marriage) worked for Women's Aid, and her and her best pal would discuss ideas like "a world without men", and if it was technically possible. But they weren't insane, and didn't really want a world without men - they were just furious about systemic injustice.

---

On people taking it too far (on the left). Yes, okay, some people do talk shit. My dad used to tell teenage me that I shouldn't read 2000 AD because it was clearly "ideologically unsound". When I asked for details, it was pointed out that there were phallic symbols all over it, and it glorified violence. I remember asking my dad if he really believed the artists were thinking about erect penises when doing the art. Years later, I asked that question on this board and some artists said that yes, they were. Ha!

Anyway, I didn't stop reading. Although, my dad had a bit of a point about the phallic stuff...

(http://www.2000ad.org/covers/reprints/mediumres/BO2K97.jpg)

---

On representation of women in media: this is something that's concerned me a lot more since my daughter was born. In just very practical terms, there's the attempt to find stories with positive female role models in the lead. Of course, those exist, but it's been interesting sifting through vast swathes of male-led media to find them.

Unprompted, she pointed out two glittery princess types that were attached to some promotional thing the other day, and decried their fashion choices. She told me that if you wore clothes like that and were obsessed with your appearance then you wouldn't be able to do any of the things she enjoys doing - biking, jumping into the hedge and so on. You'd be so worried about messing things up. (Basically, her rendition of that Tank Girl monologue from Deadline about the treehouse.)

---

On the "equality for all" argument: this sounds good on paper, but can sometimes be used negatively. Example: the "all lives matter" or "blue lives matter" movements.  They're both code for "black lives don't matter", even when, on the face of it, they seem like fair statements. Context is king. Abandon context, and you abandon reason.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 10 October, 2020, 04:47:04 PM
yep, context is important but I will say that attempts to provide it aren't usually received with open ears.

Again, look at the 'all men are trash' thing.  It spawned the whole 'not all men' meme thing and then attempts to provide context there were decried as 'mansplaining' and any frustration at the whole thing is see as the 'fragile male ego' or being a gammon.

All of that has become fairly common language recently.   But that all seems to be fair game and will result in a fair bit of mental gymnastics to if not justify it then at least deny its effect.

I don't know what it's like to raise a young girl, I don't have kids, so I imagine that will affect anyone's perspective on this whole thing too.   

Funt/Indy - do either of you have boys as well?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 10 October, 2020, 05:11:35 PM

What's the alternative? "Equality for some"? We already have that and it's really not my cup of synth.

However, is equality even possible amongst a species like ours, which includes individuals with a wide range of strengths and flaws? Practically, in the real world, I guess equality doesn't matter much - a short person, for example, is at a disadvantage when confronted with a high shelf but not so much when faced with tight spaces. Practical equality in the physical world, then, would seem to be impossible.

It's partly our illusions into which equality must be injected; media, legislation, religion, etc. If we can somehow bake equality into these illusions of ours then, eventually, it will become as real as belief in the BBC, the government, and God. Of course, I hate this suggestion because it reinforces the idea that equality can only be bestowed the ruling classes, which is anathema to me.

Or we could just learn to treat one another with basic respect. Because, in the end, isn't that what equality is about?

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 10 October, 2020, 05:16:49 PM
There are parallels to be draw with the referendum campaign and its focus on immigration, emphasising the impact of migrant workers whilst glossing over the fact that it is 'rich white arseholes' exploiting wage disparities that is the real issue.
Emotion vs facts is part of the problem. Humans aren’t really designed for logic. We are utterly shit at overcoming immediacy bias and thinking about the long term. It is trivially easy (as we’ve seen) to have half a country turn on ‘others’, without realising they are happily giving away swathes of their own rights, in order to, what, stop people who per capita fed more into the tax system than natives and frequently started up companies that employed Brits? Go us.

it was pointed out that there were phallic symbols all over it, and it glorified violence
To be fair to your dad, 2000 AD has long had—and still has—problems with representation. I’m not sure how that’ll ever be fixed, nor whether it’s really possible. Editorial’s attempts to get more women and BAME creators involved is a start. Eradicating male gaze will be likely impossible, but making writers and artists aware of it would be a start. That today we still very frequently see Dredd stories where the only female judges are Psis (and if there are no Psis, all the judges are men) is just staggering.

In just very practical terms, there's the attempt to find stories with positive female role models in the lead.
For me, it’s more than that. It’s that you quite often have stories where female characters just don’t exist. It’s not just the positive role model, but the entire existence of women. That’s why I’m so happy The Beano’s previous editor heavily pivoted key characters. Dennis—in hindsight, a bullying arsehole as recently as half a decade ago, and very much of the URGH GIRLS brigade—is now a smart, streetwise kid with the mix of friends that makes sense in modern Britain. Walter’s gone from some very troubling portrayals to a conniving little shit, who wants to make things not fun for everyone, backed by his evil mayoral father. Elsewhere, we have Rubi and JJ, although the latter’s now somewhat marginalised. Still: progress.

(In books, the same is true. Not only do you have wade through boys-only nonsense, but also minimise stereotypical shite that gets old very quickly. Fortunately, mini-IP is a voracious reader, and so we get through books at speed, and we’ve discovered authors who subvert themes and have fun with tropes.)

She told me that if you wore clothes like that and were obsessed with your appearance then you wouldn't be able to do any of the things she enjoys doing
Fuck, yeah! Go, mini-Solo! And she’s right. But that goes further, too. We had a local councillor who wanted to ban girls from wearing anything but dresses to school, because girls should “look like girls”. Beyond the obvious issues there in the sense of defining what a gender should wear (and, erm, what girls should wear on their legs), there’s that prescriptive bullshit that blocks girls having fun.

Uniforms still tend towards boys playing rough and climbing trees, whereas girls should sit in the corner. When at mini-IP’s pre-school a couple of years back, the boys were tearing around like arseholes, while the teacher simpered that “boys will be boys”. No, they’re taught FROM THAT AGE that they can get away with that hit, and that the girls should put up with being bullied out of their toys. That might sound petty, but it’s this attitude that then extends to youth and young adulthood, with boys thinking they are ‘entitled’ to things they are not. Issues of equality, consent, and boys not being ‘above’ girls in the pecking order need to be baked in from a young age, and girls shouldn’t be made to feel that they must be quiet and not do all the things you mentioned above.

decried as ‘mansplaining’
You’re not wrong, but… Any look at a prominent woman’s Twitter feed will show the shit they have to deal with versus men. Any comment is pulled apart. Any experience is denied or put right by men. My wife used to have fun with this at uni. She would make a point and be ignored by a tutor. Eventually, a male friend recognised men would then say something identical and get credit. So he started doing it, every single time, and the pair of them would laugh their arses off when the tutor would tell him what a great idea he’d had. The tutor didn’t get it. He had no awareness of what he was doing (but did at one point separate my wife and her friend, because she was ‘disrupting the sessions’).

Funt/Indy - do either of you have boys as well?
Not here. One girl and that’s our lot. And it’s an eye-opener to see how the world is. One example: my wife and daughter were once in Sainsbury’s. I don’t recall how old mini-IP was—about 3. Some old fucker kept distracting her, and the reason was this: she wasn’t smiling for him. My wife got angry and he took great offence. He was “being nice”. My wife noted he was distracting a toddler in a busy store, who was content and just minding her own business and trying to ensure she was always with her mum. He just wanted a little girl to smile. It became all about him, like it so often does.

This hasn’t been a one-off. My kid is now 6 and has been subject to sexism on a number of occasions. Now, she also happens to be somewhat aware of it as well. I’m glad she’s pretty tough and forthright, but I can now more than ever see why by the time women get to adulthood, some of them are ready to fucking explode. I would be if the same kind of shit was hurled at me all the time. (Related: all the stories my wife has told me about ongoing sexism and other shit hurled her way, which added to post-2016 anti-foreigner bullshit at her work and elsewhere just makes me want to scream. And all of that, without exception, came from white men.)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: IndigoPrime 10 October, 2020, 05:18:48 PM
Or we could just learn to treat one another with basic respect. Because, in the end, isn't that what equality is about?
That and equality in the sense of making relevant opportunity as open and even as possible. So: not routinely paying women less for the same job. Not routinely giving black people higher sentences for drug crimes than white people. And so on.

There are of course some things in which equality is impossible—tasks where a physical requirement is essential. But then that’s life. But those things should be recognised outliers, not the norm.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 10 October, 2020, 05:42:20 PM
And all of that, without exception, came from white men.)

Doesn't mean that 'white' and 'men' are necessarily the problem. 

I've witnessed plenty of that sort of stuff from women.  The majority of my career has been in offices with large numbers of women and most of my bosses in the last 25+ years have been women, so as a result most of the bad stuff I've encountered at work has been from women.

But plenty of nice, supportive women too.  That's society though.   Some people are nice, some aren't.

Some workplaces are toxic but believe me that isn't a white male thing exclusively.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Richard 10 October, 2020, 05:49:01 PM
it reinforces the idea that equality can only be bestowed by the ruling classes
Think of it as equality being recognised, rather than bestowed.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 10 October, 2020, 06:16:57 PM

Same thing - if the rulers decide not to recognise equality, there is no equality.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 10 October, 2020, 06:47:06 PM
Again, look at the 'all men are trash' thing.  It spawned the whole 'not all men' meme thing and then attempts to provide context there were decried as 'mansplaining' and any frustration at the whole thing is see as the 'fragile male ego' or being a gammon.

I'll confess to having lost track of the direction of your argument a little here. Partly, it's ignorance on my part, as I've never heard of "all men are trash". It sounds like a silly thing to say. I'm also unaware of this new "gammon" term.

What I do know is that I support feminism, and some crazy, edge-rhetoric won't make me abandon that view. I find it very hard to feel like a victim, as a white, middle-class man with one supportive parent.

I'm a few decades into life, and I've only ever felt like a victim of sexism twice. Once, in a bar job, when someone grabbed my crotch without permission. And once, when someone was complaining loudly in a staff meeting that "well, that's men for you".  The thing is - I was only momentarily a victim - on both occasions it was easy for me to set things right just by telling those people their behavior wasn't acceptable.

I cannot imagine any woman my age with a similar work pattern (I did hospitality work for over ten years) being able to say they'd only been the victim of sexism twice. Or that it was easy to switch it off just by exerting a brief moment of willpower.

So, any conversation that's aiming to create victims out of men (in general) just seems to be laughable, really. Not in individuals' experiences you understand, but in terms of the bird's eye view.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 10 October, 2020, 07:08:24 PM
Sure, being a white male doesn't make you a victim and I see why that'd be laughable as a concept.  But if the intent is to try to make men feel like victims, then that's that's the shitty bit I guess.

The 'all men are trash' thing is very common. 

We're going round and round here.  I'm going to go and watch The Boys.  Have a good evening, folks.  :)

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Richard 10 October, 2020, 07:32:13 PM
The Boys is really good this week.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 10 October, 2020, 08:21:20 PM
The Boys is really good this week.

Fascist.

Actually, yeah, it is good, isn't it?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mardroid 10 October, 2020, 08:36:37 PM
The Boys is really good this week.

Fascist.

Actually, yeah, it is good, isn't it?

Coincidentally (considering recent posts above) you get to see three ladies get it done! 😆
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 10 October, 2020, 10:13:59 PM
By the way, can anyone fill me in as to how David Baddiel fits in to the racism thing?  Not denying it or anything; I just wasn't aware.  Seems very odd to me too, as I recently heard a very long interview with him where he mainly argued that antisemitism should be treated as seriously as other forms of racism.  (He's right, of course, but the notion that he's been complicit in those other types of racism is news to me.)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 10 October, 2020, 10:45:14 PM
"David Baddiel blackface (https://www.google.com/search?q=david+baddiel+blackface&source=lmns&bih=881&biw=1280&client=firefox-b-d&hl=en-GB&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjlxajJ-arsAhWJ0oUKHejzDO0Q_AUoAHoECAEQAA)"

If Baddiel is arguing that antisemitism is equivalent to other forms of racism, then that's a new development, because his arguing that antisemitism was the worst in a hierarchy of racisms and more deserving of attention than anti-black racism is what prompted the tide of "Is this U?" social media responses citing his blackface routine in the first place.
He's only in the last few months started to acknowledge the latter even happened, and this is why I find it hard to despise Jim Davidson - as shite and Tory as he is, he seems to know it, and was cleaning up his act as far back as the 1990s.  Later comedians like Baddiel should know better, especially if their whole schtick was being the politically-correct straight man in a series of comedy troupes and double acts for the better part of three decades.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 10 October, 2020, 10:54:54 PM
"David Baddiel blackface (https://www.google.com/search?q=david+baddiel+blackface&source=lmns&bih=881&biw=1280&client=firefox-b-d&hl=en-GB&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjlxajJ-arsAhWJ0oUKHejzDO0Q_AUoAHoECAEQAA)"

If Baddiel is arguing that antisemitism is equivalent to other forms of racism, then that's a new development, because his arguing that antisemitism was the worst in a hierarchy of racisms and more deserving of attention than anti-black racism is what prompted the tide of "Is this U?" social media responses citing his blackface routine in the first place.

That may have been what he was saying alright. 
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 11 October, 2020, 01:18:33 AM
This happens to me quite a lot where people say "so and so is this or that", and then I do a quick web search (like, literally the first thing I found in this case) and...

(https://i.imgur.com/ibcwarN.png)


---


On the topic of "men are trash" - I was curious and looked it up. One of the key points made in a rather philosophical article (https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/philosophy/men-are-trash-philosophy-dating-hate-speech) (with the word philosophical in the title) was that it's NOT "all men are trash".

I was discussing it with Her Indoors* [apply your irony bafflers and move on] and was trying to come up with something easier for people to digest - like the rather catchy "toxic masculinity is trash", which led to us trying to define what exactly masculinity is. (Even without the toxic bit attached.)

We found (certainly, I found) that an incredibly difficult exercise. It was either a terrible generalization (physically strong! ... but I'm not) or swerved immediately into either sexism or toxicity. Is there a positive masculinity?

*Blame the tv show Minder, and be aware that I'm aware that I spend entirely too much time indoors and my better half (another term I never use) is the social butterfly.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Leigh S 11 October, 2020, 02:12:26 PM
Interestingly, my Google threw up an article from the day after the apology shown there, from the guy whose career was trashed by Baddie and Skinnerl, stating he had never had a personal apologyfrom them - not sure if he has made one since?

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/jason-lee-david-baddiel-frank-skinner-apology-comedy-sketches-a9592741.html

As for wokeness, I mean, I can probably point to examples in film and TV where I felt diversity had been handled a bit clunkily -  New Who would be my go to for that - but of course, this is probably as much the fact diversity was not even an option for so long that any sign of it being attempted tended to stand out like a sore thumb.  The fact is loads of other things were just as clunky (not everyone can be Alan Moore or Wagner!), and the "diversity" angle only stood out further from that due to it being so rare up until then?  So picking on the diversity as the issue is probably missing the point, and says more about the viewer than the creator. 

TLDR: "White kids did it!"

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 11 October, 2020, 03:19:37 PM
He's only in the last few months started to acknowledge the latter even happened
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 11 October, 2020, 04:40:48 PM
Probably not too surprising that my few seconds of "research" didn't quite nail the details there.  :-[
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 11 October, 2020, 06:28:38 PM
 
On the topic of "men are trash" - I was curious and looked it up. One of the key points made in a rather philosophical article (https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/philosophy/men-are-trash-philosophy-dating-hate-speech) (with the word philosophical in the title) was that it's NOT "all men are trash".

Like I said, mental gymnastics.  Compare these statements.

2000 AD fans are pricks.

All 2000 AD fans are pricks.

Does 'all' make a difference?

The reason it is difficult is that people shouldn't apply blanket statements to groups of people.  It's no more helpful than saying, to quote Kenny 'Bricks' Wangler from the sensational TV show Oz, "all women is bitches" or saying that all Chinese people are bad drivers (or whatever unhelpful stereotype).
 

  Is there a positive masculinity?

That guy from Parks and Rec who eats a lot of bacon.

Here's the thing, masculinity can be seen as toxic but it could be seen as necessary for survival and helpful for breeding.  If there was a drug that reduced masculinity to woke-approved levels, you'd likely end up with a lot of really unhappy women who are attracted, at a biological level, to that type of guy.

Tattooed, thick-necked blokes seem to do well when it comes to that sort of thing.

That's the problem, the woke don't speak for everyone including women, gay people, trans people, people of colour.  But they sometimes act like they do, despite being mostly white.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 11 October, 2020, 07:04:03 PM
I don't like the slogan "men are trash" - I think it's a negative when positives work better.

However...

Does 'all' make a difference?

Yes, it does. Try this one: "Whales are endangered". Nobody's going to argue with that as a fair statement. It doesn't mean "all whales are endangered", it means "some whales are endangered".

people shouldn't apply blanket statements to groups of people

I think that depends on context. "Black Lives Matter" applies a blanket statement to a group of people. It's an entirely positive message (really, a cry for help).

---

people shouldn't apply blanket statements to groups of people

But then you do exactly that...

the woke don't speak for everyone

I get a bit lost there anyway, because I don't have a clear picture in my head of who "the woke" are supposed to be. It's like that joke in Curb Your Enthusiasm about "The Lesbians" having a meeting and deciding that Larry was okay.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 11 October, 2020, 08:04:29 PM
We've gotten to the point where we're drifting into semantics now.  I think that means we've exhausted the topic.
 
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 11 October, 2020, 08:08:05 PM
...or that we're just getting to the interesting bit.  :D
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 11 October, 2020, 08:33:37 PM
The reason it is difficult is that people shouldn't apply blanket statements to groups of people.

feminists
BLM
SJWs
the further left
the woke

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: judgeurko 11 October, 2020, 09:35:28 PM
We've gotten to the point where we're drifting into semantics now.  I think that means we've exhausted the topic.
No, you are just being called out on your hypocrisy.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 11 October, 2020, 09:43:32 PM
We've gotten to the point where we're drifting into semantics now.  I think that means we've exhausted the topic.
No, you are just being called out on your hypocrisy.

To be fair, repoman and I had come to an agreement: we both dislike the slogan "men are trash", and find it misleading and negative. So, we had started to discuss semantics.

And I often tend towards a "do as I say, not as I do" mentality (i.e. hypocrisy), but I think that's just human nature. It's easy to get tied in knots during a debate-like conversation. We're not all Christopher Hitchens. (And neither is he, now that he's unfortunately dead.)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 11 October, 2020, 11:14:32 PM

Quote from: Funt Solo on Today at 01:18:33
Is there a positive masculinity?


Here's the thing, masculinity can be seen as toxic but it could be seen as necessary for survival and helpful for breeding.

There are some ideas about the inities that have helped me. This is probably going to be long and weird, so strap in...

I've always seen my own personality as more feminine than masculine. To clarify, this has nothing to do with sexual orientation (or at least hasn't yet) but is more about attitude. I have masculine traits, of course; rippling and hairy old male body, a deep attraction to females, a love of comics and so on. But my personality seems more reliant on my right brain than my left. As such, emotions tend to be more important to me than rationality and so I often let them rule me, using my left brain to figure out ways of justifying my emotions. One example would be warning people that I had a bad temper to kind of excuse my behaviour when I inevitably lost my temper, or to be snippy and snappy with folk who poked my emotions with a verbal stick.

Anyway, long story short: bad temper, righteous outrage, anger, being sacked, fear, depression, stress, isolation, heart attacks.

And it was around this time in the completely boring yet utterly mesmerising mystery tour which has been my life so far that I started to listen to people talking about the masculine/feminine balance in different ways.

One idea is that in prehistory human society was completely the other way around, a right-brained world  with females filling all the roles of power. When humankind was young, this may have made more sense - as we evolved self-awareness,  the first things we'd notice are our emotions and the emotions of others, and other animals. Being a tribal animal, emotions would be holding communities together before rationality even figured out what a community was. With feminine energy in ascendance, and women in charge, perhaps the emerging human race, still very much a part of the landscape for uncounted millennia, was a peaceful and cooperative one - but not very pro-active; being more about accommodating  Nature than controlling it.

Nowadays, and for all recorded history, the human race has lived under a masculine paradigm with men in charge. And we can all see how well that's going. Granted, the left-brain has given us some wonderful things but it's not very nice, not very accommodating, and it's charging ahead like tomorrow never comes, virtually heedless of the consequences.

Some think that men should be suppressed now (it's our turn) and women put in charge (it's their turn), but I disagree. I think we need a balance, not between men and women but between the masculine and the feminine. I don't think the man/woman difference is what it's all about at all. That's only part of it - we all know that we are a mixture of masculine and feminine traits, we all know masculine women and feminine men just as we all know feminine women and masculine men. Not to mention just plain old men and women, who always seem happiest, somehow.

When the masculine or feminine traits are pushed to the extremes and concentrated, as with many substances, they become toxic. (One could interpret genocide, for example, as extreme instances of the masculine desire for supremacy.)

What I think we need is a balance. Pass emotions through the filter of rationality and pass rationality through the filter of emotion. Don't do things that feel wrong, don't feel things that make you do wrong. Use both parts of your brain - strive for balance: think as you feel as you do.

Anyway, that's what I learned and ever since I've tried to maintain that left/right, masculine/feminine balance. Has it worked? Well, yes and no - I hardly ever experience bad tempers, righteous outrages, anger, fear, depression, stress, or isolation any more. As for getting sacked and heart attacks - I guess time will tell. I still have a hairy arse, though.

Well, it worked for me in a weird, hard-to-explain kind of way (even if it is 90% bollocks - and it very well might be). Maybe, and here's an idea for all you statists out there (for I know you are many! **waves**) suggested by my recent delve into the Olden Days, why not have two prime ministers? One masculine and one feminine (interpret and choose as you will), the no vote of one always overriding the yes vote of the other, so nothing gets done unless they agree; passing emotions through the filter of rationality and rationality through the filter of emotion to arrive at a balanced decision. I think I'll call that Sharksism, if it catches on. If nobody likes it, I was just the fall-guy - it was all Jim's idea.

WTL;ODR - Feminism will never be able to enjoy the see-saw on her own.

WTF? - He made her do it.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Modern Panther 11 October, 2020, 11:22:26 PM
"Sjw values" that define all art?  " Woke approved" hormone levels?

Bloody hell.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 11 October, 2020, 11:31:13 PM

Why not? And when their term of office expires, we force them to marry and send them out into the Cursed Earth, there to bring unity to the, er, unityless until death do them part.

Then we'll name a warship and a hospital after them.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 12 October, 2020, 01:49:02 AM
Pretty disappointed in Urko and Bear there.

Very disingenuous to call me out when I clearly mean that blanket statements are wrong based on certain criteria such as race, gender.  Things you are born with and can't readily change.

The things quoted there are just names of groups.  What blanket statement did I make about BLM for example?

Without checking I'm not even sure I mentioned BLM.  What are you even quoting then?

Poor form.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: repoman 12 October, 2020, 01:52:22 AM
Edit: just checked I mentioned BLM in the context of people mentioning it but didn't comment on it with any sort of statement.

You might as well quote every noun I've posted.

Not that this needs clarifying but BLM = good. 
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 12 October, 2020, 10:53:54 AM
If you're saying you don't like it when people make reductionist generalizations, then fair play.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sintec 12 October, 2020, 01:31:59 PM
I'm no fan of Piers Morgan but he has some interesting comments on wokeness in this interview which I think are quite relevant to this conversation https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/oct/12/piers-morgan-what-does-trump-smell-like-expensive-aftershave-and-a-whiff-of-hairspray

Also interesting to see him admit that many of his comments are intentionally aimed at stirring up controversy and in his own words; "I think I’ve been at my best journalistically when I’ve had something to get my teeth stuck into. When there’s nothing really going on and I’m creating a few firestorms because that’s my instinctive nature, that’s me at my worst – just a bit bored, sinking my fangs, which can be ferocious, into fairly inconsequential things, contributing to the general culture wars in a not-particularly-helpful manner.” - I think I'd tend to agree with him there.

I really hate this idea that there's a "culture war". It implies that different cultures can't co-exist, that there can be only one and it must vanquish all opposition to reign supreme. That culture is a thing to be fought over a series of battles to be won. That for me is entirely missing the point. But then I'm pro-multi culturalism and I often feel like a lot of those on the flip side of these arguements are in favour of restoring a more mono-cultural society (I'm not sure such a thing ever really existed but that's a whole separate conversation).
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 12 October, 2020, 06:24:18 PM
Morgan has been poking lefties since at least his days as editor of the Mirror, though at the time it was dismissed as a poor copy of Matthew Wright's schtick - which was to achieve minor pundit notoriety by using his position as the Mirror's showbiz editor to create feuds with celebrities - and Morgan's ire for "the Guardian and its readers" seemed genuine and unironic in the pre-social media landscape of minor UK celebrity.  I doubt very much if Morgan's self-awareness is genuine so much as a contemporary addition his act.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sintec 12 October, 2020, 06:30:21 PM
oh indeed - the interview is clearly in service to trying to flog his new book and if he wants Guardian readers to pick it up then he needs to persuade them that it's not going to be several hundred pages of him calling them names and dismissing their opinions.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 12 October, 2020, 07:35:49 PM
... and on the subject of the media and its apparent inability to get to grips with this, Rhianna Pratchett does not appear to have much positive to say about the BBC's 'adaptation' of The Watch.

Having read some of the ideas that the creative team seem to have thrown together for this it really does feel like someone just doesn't understand Pratchett's point.  I mean let's face it, he was ripping the shit out of a lot of these issues for years with those books.  Then you read what is being done with the characters ...

 :o
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: von Boom 12 October, 2020, 07:48:26 PM
... and on the subject of the media and its apparent inability to get to grips with this, Rhianna Pratchett does not appear to have much positive to say about the BBC's 'adaptation' of The Watch.

Having read some of the ideas that the creative team seem to have thrown together for this it really does feel like someone just doesn't understand Pratchett's point.  I mean let's face it, he was ripping the shit out of a lot of these issues for years with those books.  Then you read what is being done with the characters ...

 :o

You can see for yourself.

https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=34708.msg1041269#msg1041269 (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=34708.msg1041269#msg1041269)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: ChickenStu 12 October, 2020, 08:15:28 PM
If somebody criticises something for not having diversity I'm immediately suspicious of the person and find myself questioning WHY they are actually doing it. Do they really believe what they are saying? Or are they just trying to virtue signal themselves? It's a totally double edged sword and it really gets my spider sense tingling.

 if anything I've just said is seen as controversial - I need to explain something...

I'm a Gen Xer. I was anti racist, anti sexist and anti homophobic long before "woke" and "diversity" became bywords in our popular culture. I've stood up for my beliefs in the past. I've put my money where my mouth is even risking my own safety to do so.

So when someone criticises a movie trailer or something for not having enough "diversity" in it... I feel like asking them if they ever nearly got their head kicked in for sticking up for a black friend in the roughest pub in town.

I bet I know what the answer is. It's easy to put the world to rights from behind a computer screen.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 12 October, 2020, 10:09:29 PM
There is a lack of diversity in terms of female representation in movies. That's just true. Now do I have to go and fight someone in a pub to make it more true?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Professor Bear 12 October, 2020, 10:21:10 PM
I suspect the root of Rhianna Pratchett's issues with the adaptation is that they've made a very big deal of saying they were "adding" diversity to Pterry's work, which is at the very least a bit of an insult to his memory, never mind a gross misunderstanding of a series of social commentaries masquerading as fantasy novels.  What did they think Monstrous Regiment was about?
Also, the producers cast a six foot actor in the role of a dwarf, so you must forgive me if I don't find their commitment to "diversity" particularly convincing.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mardroid 12 October, 2020, 11:31:08 PM
I suspect the root of Rhianna Pratchett's issues with the adaptation is that they've made a very big deal of saying they were "adding" diversity to Pterry's work, which is at the very least a bit of an insult to his memory, never mind a gross misunderstanding of a series of social commentaries masquerading as fantasy novels.  What did they think Monstrous Regiment was about?
Also, the producers cast a six foot actor in the role of a dwarf, so you must forgive me if I don't find their commitment to "diversity" particularly convincing.

Are you referring to Carrot? In Pratchett’s novels  he is a human who was adopted by dwarves. (https://discworld.fandom.com/wiki/Carrot_Ironfoundersson)He’s a tall lad, so the casting would match the described character in this instance.. (If you were joking ignore this.)

Not that I’m disagreeing with rest of your comment concerning diversity.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: shaolin_monkey 13 October, 2020, 01:21:54 AM
No, the dwarf that tries to be more female. Can’t remember her name. Cheery Littlebottom maybe? There’s an allusion to that in the trailer - someone not dwarf sized trying to look more female. It didn’t occur to me that that might be Cheery until now though.

Cheery?

(https://i.imgur.com/bPwUEsF.jpg)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 13 October, 2020, 09:44:13 AM
As the diversity in the Watch books was of the more metaphorical kind (e.g. Angua), I don't see a problem with bolstering that with modern casting choices when you have to put it into a commercial visual medium. Where I would have a problem is where the characters are completely at odds with their essential natures (e.g. Cheery being non-binary instead of a female dwarf 'coming out' as female: not really the same thing. Create a new non-binary character, by all means).  Not having paid a lot of attention to the production gossip, the kerayzzy Sam Vimes in the trailer is an abomination unto Nuggan.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: ChickenStu 13 October, 2020, 02:15:01 PM
There is a lack of diversity in terms of female representation in movies. That's just true. Now do I have to go and fight someone in a pub to make it more true?

See? Rather than thinking about what I'm actually trying to say... you immediately go on the attack. Why does it have to be an argument? Why is my take on things less important than yours - and why do you feel you have to respond with aggression?

No - you don't have to fight someone in a pub. I didn't. I just stood inbetween my friend and a drunk racist idiot who picked on him for no reason other than what he looked like.

But I'll ask you a question - if that's really how you feel about female representation... what are YOU going to do to change it? What have you DONE, what are you DOING and what are you GOING to do?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: shaolin_monkey 13 October, 2020, 02:16:23 PM
the kerayzzy Sam Vimes in the trailer is an abomination unto Nuggan.

Aye. I never pictured Vimes channeling Jack Sparrow, that’s for bloody sure.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 13 October, 2020, 02:50:22 PM
There is a lack of diversity in terms of female representation in movies. That's just true. Now do I have to go and fight someone in a pub to make it more true?

See? Rather than thinking about what I'm actually trying to say... you immediately go on the attack. Why does it have to be an argument? Why is my take on things less important than yours - and why do you feel you have to respond with aggression?

No - you don't have to fight someone in a pub. I didn't. I just stood inbetween my friend and a drunk racist idiot who picked on him for no reason other than what he looked like.

But I'll ask you a question - if that's really how you feel about female representation... what are YOU going to do to change it? What have you DONE, what are you DOING and what are you GOING to do?

Everyone loves lists, so:

1. You first said that anyone who supports diversity is a fake, unless they can prove otherwise through some evidence of direct action. I asked if that was really necessary. That seems fair to me.

2. You said "virtue signaling" was bad, then went on to tell an expansive story in which you were the hero. Kindly: irony.

3. You say I'm aggressive but then I'd counter that you started with the name calling in your first post, and in your second you started SHOUTING at me.

4. It's okay to have a point of view without being held to account over the level of direct action you've either taken previously or plan to take in the future. It's okay to have a point of view without taking any other action than expressing it. Expressing it is an action.

5. You have no idea what level of activism or otherwise I've partaken of in my life, but you're happy to pre-judge me - which was your original point. You love to pre-judge people who support diversity. Big whoop.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: ChickenStu 13 October, 2020, 03:16:14 PM
There is a lack of diversity in terms of female representation in movies. That's just true. Now do I have to go and fight someone in a pub to make it more true?

See? Rather than thinking about what I'm actually trying to say... you immediately go on the attack. Why does it have to be an argument? Why is my take on things less important than yours - and why do you feel you have to respond with aggression?

No - you don't have to fight someone in a pub. I didn't. I just stood inbetween my friend and a drunk racist idiot who picked on him for no reason other than what he looked like.

But I'll ask you a question - if that's really how you feel about female representation... what are YOU going to do to change it? What have you DONE, what are you DOING and what are you GOING to do?

Everyone loves lists, so:

1. You first said that anyone who supports diversity is a fake, unless they can prove otherwise through some evidence of direct action. I asked if that was really necessary. That seems fair to me.

2. You said "virtue signaling" was bad, then went on to tell an expansive story in which you were the hero. Kindly: irony.

3. You say I'm aggressive but then I'd counter that you started with the name calling in your first post, and in your second you started SHOUTING at me.

4. It's okay to have a point of view without being held to account over the level of direct action you've either taken previously or plan to take in the future. It's okay to have a point of view without taking any other action than expressing it. Expressing it is an action.

5. You have no idea what level of activism or otherwise I've partaken of in my life, but you're happy to pre-judge me - which was your original point. You love to pre-judge people who support diversity. Big whoop.

1. I didn't say EVERYBODY who promotes diversity is a fake. But with anything there are fakes Do I really need to tell you this? I can tell you're not daft. You must have seen this somewhere.

2. Erm... err.... look just shut up OK?!?!?  :D J/K. OK fair play - you tore that one apart, but again it's about the point.

3. Didn't mean to call names and didn't mean to shout. Apologies if it came across that way.

4. Of course - but where is the right place to do so? Expressing something is great and all but actions speak louder than words in this life and sadly most people use the internet for expression. And that's great and all but the more it expands the more of an echo chamber it becomes.

5. Dude. Like I said, I didn't pre-judge anybody. Looking at a person's motives isn't pre-judging. It's being cautious and a stitch in time saves lives. And I didn't want to have a dig you in general I was just trying to expand on an point you raised. Too many people in this world (and I don't mean you or anyone else in particular) love to point out what the problems are - but they can't provide the answers.

I promise I'm a nice guy man. Sorry if I seemed like a dick. I just get frustrated with things sometimes because we as a species seem to like overcomplicating simple issues and behaving contrary to amicable intentions.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 13 October, 2020, 03:28:34 PM
It's true that it's easier to get into a fight on the Internet than in real life because judging meaning and intention is incredibly difficult when we only have the text sitting in front of us. (And because some people get twattish when they're anonymous, of course.)

And there are issues with echo-chambers. Basically, I agree with everything you just said.

I'd stand with you against that racist twat.*


*Because I'm amazing!
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: ChickenStu 13 October, 2020, 03:36:59 PM
I'd stand with you against that racist twat.*


*Because I'm amazing!

 :D

Ugh... he was such a prick. Was having such a lovely night out until he piped up.  :-\

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: shaolin_monkey 13 October, 2020, 04:08:06 PM
Reminds me of when my partner got accused of ruining a wedding ‘cos the brides father said something like “I’m not racist but...” followed by something pretty offensive, which she called him out for on the spot. We all know racists don’t like being called racists, so he stormed off to his room to have a sulk in the middle of the reception.

He refused to come out of his room until Bekhy apologised for calling him out as a racist. So the bride basically said to Bekhy “please will you apologise to my father just so we can get him out of the room?”

She responded “You want me to apologise to your father because he was being racist and doesn’t like people pointing it out to him? No, I’m not apologising for that. Tell him to come to me and apologise for the incredibly offensive comment he made. If he wants to hide in his room that’s nothing to do with me, that’s his choice.”

Bless her, that story always makes me smile. 
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 13 October, 2020, 05:43:40 PM
Nice one, Shaolin Monkey - you have a keeper there!

Or are they just trying to virtue signal themselves?

Here's a phrase I've heard a lot in the last few years but still haven't quite got my head around.  I'm not directing this at you, ChickenStu, just thinking about the expression you used - 'virtue signal'.   

Does this just mean 'pretending to be nice'? 'Doing / saying nice things just show off'? 'Saying "woke" things that you don't really believe'?  'Making "PC" statements just to look good'?

If it's any of the above, how can we actually determine that the person is secretly not what they say they are? It's as baffling to me as using 'social justice warrior' as an insult - don't people want social justice?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Leigh S 13 October, 2020, 06:12:25 PM
I don't think we can deny the existence of people who like to say "the right thing" but in private may not live up to that.  The problem with the phrase "Virtue Signaller" is that it paints everyone, not just the usual dickish minority who would be dicks about a lot of other things given the chance, as in it for the likes.

As such, it is unhelpful - sure, there exists a tiny proportion of dickheads who present themselves as something for their own gain (I recall a sunglasses wearing Union rep from the early 90s who was very Right On, but an absolute bastard when it came to his personal relationships - maybe he thought the one forgave the other?).  If you dont like "all men are bastards" you should not be using "Virtue Signalling" or "SJW" in precisely the same way.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: ChickenStu 13 October, 2020, 09:17:48 PM
@JayzusBChrist... Yeah. That's about the size of it.

@Leigh S... I think it's perfectly easy to tell the difference between the ones who are genuine and the ones who aint.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Leigh S 13 October, 2020, 09:41:00 PM
Without putting words into your mouth ChickenStu, you are "immediately suspicious of anyone" who criticises something for lacking diversity, so by that mark, the tell tale sign someone doesn't really want diversity is that they are vocal in their support of diversity?

If what you are saying is "I support diversity too but some people leap in before they have all the facts, or want diversity where it would be odd (No black actors playing Nazi High Command roles)", then I get you.   It isnt somethign that personally riles me, other than it makes a good straw man target for the Piers Morgans to use to discredit the whole idea of diversity. 

I'd argue that is the minority though, so I wouldnt become immediately suspicious of someones motives myself, unless it was something like the above example, in which case, amplifying the "nutter" element by bringing up "virtue signalling" as if it is a huge problem only undermines the vast majority of sensible voices, so best to ignore it/step away from such extremes (which I thnk are rare enough I dont feel the need to go on high alert as soon as anyone mentions diversity)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: ChickenStu 14 October, 2020, 12:30:04 AM
Without putting words into your mouth ChickenStu, you are "immediately suspicious of anyone" who criticises something for lacking diversity, so by that mark, the tell tale sign someone doesn't really want diversity is that they are vocal in their support of diversity?

If what you are saying is "I support diversity too but some people leap in before they have all the facts, or want diversity where it would be odd (No black actors playing Nazi High Command roles)", then I get you.   It isnt somethign that personally riles me, other than it makes a good straw man target for the Piers Morgans to use to discredit the whole idea of diversity. 

I'd argue that is the minority though, so I wouldnt become immediately suspicious of someones motives myself, unless it was something like the above example, in which case, amplifying the "nutter" element by bringing up "virtue signalling" as if it is a huge problem only undermines the vast majority of sensible voices, so best to ignore it/step away from such extremes (which I thnk are rare enough I dont feel the need to go on high alert as soon as anyone mentions diversity)

I'm not going to take the easy way out but thanks for offering it.

Support diversity? I'm just not racist, I live my life being nice to everyone and I call out injustice when I'm needed.

I'll give you an example: The Idris Elba as Bond thing. I wouldn't care of he played Bond. Not because of any self aggrandizing posturing - more "it's just a movie - who gives a shit. If he looks cool in a tux then that's my ticket bought".

When I talk about being suspicious - it's not about whether they believe it, it's more if they expect to gain something. Social media likes are fast becoming a currency. You watched the Black Mirror episode Nosedive, right?

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 14 October, 2020, 03:00:10 PM
Wife Solo and I were chatting about this topic, and she had a good example of real-life virtue-signaling which happens when you try to do diversity training in the workplace. Some of the staff have at the ready their "I'm already a friend so I don't need the training" story. You'll have heard stories like this - they begin with "But one of my best friends is black..." or "I don't even notice colour..."

Having thus signaled that you're on the right team, you get to remove yourself from the conflict zone.

Much more difficult is to face up to the idea that actually you probably are a little bit influenced by culture in ways that make you uncomfortable. I'll confess - I'm nervous of young latinos because of some negative experiences I've had. It makes me jumpy around them, in neutral locations like shops. See: they're a "them" in my mind. It's a prejudice I have, which I'm not sure how to fix.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: CalHab 14 October, 2020, 04:06:52 PM
That's a well made point. I don't think anybody is truly free from prejudice. The best humans can be is conscious of it and work on improving themselves.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Leigh S 14 October, 2020, 05:12:33 PM
I think we are all social and tribal creatures and it is possible to do one thing for more than one reason.  We want to associate ourselves with a "tribe" and distinguish ourselves from other tribes - we want to signal what we believe in, in whatever manner we can.  It was pointed out that your anti-virtue signalling stance is in itself signalling a different virtue - direct action - cool, direct action is good, not everyone is in or will find themselves in a position for that, mind.

And this goes wider than purely political debate to the core of who we are in every aspect.

There might be chaps who like Heavy Metal music more for the culture than the music - maybe they are bikers for who the music goes with the lifestyle.  Maybe they just like Girls with tattoos! 

Maybe they like girls with tattoos, bikes and also like Heavy Metal?

Maybe they just like girls with tattoos!

Maybe they are scared of bikes, live in the middle of nowhere with no girls with tattoos to be seen - they don't even drink , that's not very metal!  But they wear a Slayer T-shirt and a Holy Diver Back patch.... Are they the Heavy Metal equivalent of a Virtue Signaller?

Should Scruffy Murphy's employ a strict entry proces where you have to name the original line up Anthrax?

Why would I look around at the people in Scruffy Murphy's and think "none of these people really like Heavy Metal - they are just in it for how it makes them look"

As you say, you can usually tell the people who are in it to win it, but those people are not the majority. 

The guy who jumps up and shouts "what about diversity" might be posturing, but does that invalidate anyhting other than that person themselves?  Why focus on it?  To me as that's a tactic used to diminish the core argument, I wouldn't be dwelling on it - I sigh and move on - there are idiots everywhere, you can't set the terms of any debate by the most stupid statement there - "kill all men" said someone somewhere, so Feminism is inherently bad.  Why help build that straw man?

This is why I would say virtue signalling is at bet unuseful and at worst a method to trash an otherwise "positive" trend. As such that annd SJW are best left to Trump and Farage supporters, and bringing them into any debate as if they were the core problem is just giving them oxygen to people I am immediately suspicious of!

When I wear my Nemesis T shirt am I Virtue signalling that I love a comic strip about an alien freedom fighter taking on a Xenophobic Empire?  Well,  yes, in part I am!

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: ChickenStu 14 October, 2020, 05:52:27 PM
Maybe life experience has made me a bit cynical, I don't know. And perhaps it stems from my (sadly necessary) research into the negative effects that social media is having on civilisation in general.

But it's like I said above - we're moving more into a society where affirmation on social media has become almost a psuedo currency. It's happening right under our noses.

So what's the best way to generate that kind of approval? Get behind a cause. Post a selfie taken at some kind of protest to show how 'right on" one is.

I'm not saying all are not genuine - but it's prudent to take such matters into consideration when examining this phenomenon.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Leigh S 14 October, 2020, 06:09:04 PM
I definitely agree Social Media is a potentially toxic and addictive replacemetn for actually going out and doing things, that's true.  but it is also potentially a positive force for people to raise their freak flag. I mean, sadly, it has been way too effective for Right Wingers to allow their own brand of virtue signalling, using phrases like "snowflake", "SJW" and "Virtue Signalling" to gain their own kind of approval and build their tribe.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 14 October, 2020, 06:40:38 PM
Humans signal their allegiances, their allies, their puissance, their reproductive suitability, their virtue, in a self-serving and performative way just like every other living creature. That's what clothes are, hairstyles, cars, accents, banter, degrees, storytelling, religious observance, even art - in humans, we call this culture. That people do this on the internet, and that others try to discern their motives, shouldn't be a surprise.  But it also isn't a bad thing,  it just is.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 14 October, 2020, 07:16:51 PM
Typical virtue-signaling! (https://youtu.be/rX40mBb8bkU)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: ChickenStu 14 October, 2020, 07:34:15 PM
I definitely agree Social Media is a potentially toxic and addictive replacemetn for actually going out and doing things, that's true.  but it is also potentially a positive force for people to raise their freak flag. I mean, sadly, it has been way too effective for Right Wingers to allow their own brand of virtue signalling, using phrases like "snowflake", "SJW" and "Virtue Signalling" to gain their own kind of approval and build their tribe.

I hope you don't think I'm one of these right wingers because I can assure you I'm not. I'm just being honest about how I feel right now.

Off topic slightly - Social Media has a lot to answer for. There has been a sharp rise in mental health issues, mainly in adolescent/teenage girls. The stats do not make for pleasant reading. All linked to the social media phenomenon. It's a catastrophe unfolding right in front of us.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 14 October, 2020, 08:01:21 PM
Unfolding right before our eyes?  Sorry, Social Media has been a nightmare for well over a decade.  Facebook was a nightmare when school kids first got their hands on it.  The hassles generated by comments quickly escalated time and time again, sometimes to the point where it needed police in to sort out.

I wonder if part of the reason for the major escalation we've seen in the political factionalism and extremism, especially among the right wing, stems from the ways governments around the world chose to deal with the Financial Crash of 2008.  The same with the Referendum outcome in the UK and Trump in the US.

The mainstream media has for far too long been viewed with suspicion.  Editorial bias has been seen as a problem for decades.  Ownership has been seen as a problem in the UK and we have a situation where there is a virtual monopoly on ownership of newspapers now.

When you add in the fact that the British electoral system tends to disenfranchise the majority of voters (think of the percentage of UK voters that actually voted for a Tory candidate, much less this shower of a government) and you have a recipe for disaster.

Mervyn King said in around 2011 that he felt that there was a palpable anger at the way the financial services industry did such damage to the UK economy.  I don't think he was even close to the truth of the situation.  Now ....  :o
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Leigh S 14 October, 2020, 09:52:16 PM
Absolutely don't ChickenStu - I agree with the basic premise that there are people who just defy logic on all sides of any argument.  I've rolled my eyes at some clunky Nu Who line with the best of them, and I suspect you could find old me lamenting at length somewhere in thise very forum, mores the pity! You probably don't get too far by dismissing the notion of the existence of people who are in it for the likes, but those extreme voices fast become the whipping boys to stymie debate, or a kernel around which similar nuts can dominate the agenda - look at QAnon for an example of hwo fringe maniac stuff can actually start sticking...

Social media is certainly a big part of amplifying unhelpful voices - If you look at the JK Rowling stuff - She has some grotty and unfounded beliefs as far as I am concerned, but people piling in with threats and menace just poison the well and act as a convenient sideshow away from what should be the focus of our attention - it's a playbook that never gets old, which is why I in general object to the phrase "virtue signaller", as yeah, that's happening, but is that where we should be looking for the biggest villains?

I definitely agree Social Media is a potentially toxic and addictive replacemetn for actually going out and doing things, that's true.  but it is also potentially a positive force for people to raise their freak flag. I mean, sadly, it has been way too effective for Right Wingers to allow their own brand of virtue signalling, using phrases like "snowflake", "SJW" and "Virtue Signalling" to gain their own kind of approval and build their tribe.

I hope you don't think I'm one of these right wingers because I can assure you I'm not. I'm just being honest about how I feel right now.

Off topic slightly - Social Media has a lot to answer for. There has been a sharp rise in mental health issues, mainly in adolescent/teenage girls. The stats do not make for pleasant reading. All linked to the social media phenomenon. It's a catastrophe unfolding right in front of us.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sheridan 14 October, 2020, 11:26:57 PM
Maybe they just like girls with tattoos!

Maybe they are girls with tattoos?

Why would I look around at the people in Scruffy Murphy's and think "none of these people really like Heavy Metal - they are just in it for how it makes them look"

The one in Birmingham?  Only been the once, around mid-day and I think I was the only person there at that time of day :-/
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Barrington Boots 15 October, 2020, 08:29:25 PM
Why would I look around at the people in Scruffy Murphy's and think "none of these people really like Heavy Metal - they are just in it for how it makes them look"

Ironically, this is true of a lot of the people who do drink in Scruffy Murphys nowdays.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 15 October, 2020, 08:42:04 PM
Reminds me of the time that my goth friend told me that The Cure weren't goth enough to be goth and when I tried out a few other examples and they all got turned down (even though they all wore black clothes and had white make up on). Eventually I gave up (as it turned out that everything I thought was goth was apparently just virtue signaling) and I asked him to provide just one example of a band that was true goth in his eyes.

The Fields of the Nephelim, apparently. Bunch of guys dressed like cowboys. Okay.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Leigh S 15 October, 2020, 08:58:46 PM
Ironically failing basic diversity in my own post!  :lol:

Yep, the Scruffys in Birmingham - it is very quiet most of the time!  I couldn't use Costermongers in that example as it brings on PTSD!


Maybe they just like girls with tattoos!

Maybe they are girls with tattoos?

Why would I look around at the people in Scruffy Murphy's and think "none of these people really like Heavy Metal - they are just in it for how it makes them look"

The one in Birmingham?  Only been the once, around mid-day and I think I was the only person there at that time of day :-/
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 15 October, 2020, 11:48:07 PM
The Fields of the Nephelim, apparently. Bunch of guys dressed like cowboys. Okay.

See also: The Sisters of Mercy (original line-up), The Mission and The Cult (much beloved of goths in the Love/Electric era).
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sheridan 16 October, 2020, 12:35:37 AM
The Fields of the Nephelim, apparently. Bunch of guys dressed like cowboys. Okay.

See also: The Sisters of Mercy (original line-up), The Mission and The Cult (much beloved of goths in the Love/Electric era).

Though the Cult (well, Ian) always seemed a bit confused over whether he wanted to dress as an imperialist USAian or one of the first peoples of America...
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 16 October, 2020, 06:23:30 AM
...
The Fields of the Nephelim, apparently. Bunch of guys dressed like cowboys. Okay.

Who do music that is more akin to a mournful dirge ...  Oh, and they consider their concerts to be black magic masses.  Sort of like the satanist equivalent of Christian worship music. Their album artwork back in the day was a cross between Dave McKean and Alistair Crowley.

One of their videos bears a very close similarity to the rip-off of Shok!  Post-apocalyptic imagery, western costumes ...
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 16 October, 2020, 07:48:46 AM
Oh, and they consider their concerts to be black magic masses.  Sort of like the satanist equivalent of Christian worship music.

This is so far off-topic for the thread it's making my head hurt, but you have literally no idea what you're talking about.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: sheridan 16 October, 2020, 10:59:14 AM
...
The Fields of the Nephelim, apparently. Bunch of guys dressed like cowboys. Okay.

Who do music that is more akin to a mournful dirge ...  Oh, and they consider their concerts to be black magic masses.  Sort of like the satanist equivalent of Christian worship music. Their album artwork back in the day was a cross between Dave McKean and Alistair Crowley.

One of their videos bears a very close similarity to the rip-off of Shok!  Post-apocalyptic imagery, western costumes ...

Pretty much the only bit you got right about that was Alistair Crowley.  Didn't realise you were a christian fundamentalist.  Better not get you started on any other religions.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 16 October, 2020, 12:51:25 PM
...
The Fields of the Nephelim, apparently. Bunch of guys dressed like cowboys. Okay.

Who do music that is more akin to a mournful dirge ...  Oh, and they consider their concerts to be black magic masses.  Sort of like the satanist equivalent of Christian worship music. Their album artwork back in the day was a cross between Dave McKean and Alistair Crowley.

One of their videos bears a very close similarity to the rip-off of Shok!  Post-apocalyptic imagery, western costumes ...

Pretty much the only bit you got right about that was Alistair Crowley.  Didn't realise you were a christian fundamentalist.  Better not get you started on any other religions.

To be fair, he may be completely wrong about the Nephilim (I like them, anyway), but he never said anything about being a Christian fundamentalist. Plenty to pick apart without throwing in a strawman.

Unless you were joking, in which case I apologise.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 16 October, 2020, 01:14:17 PM
To be fair, he may be completely wrong about the Nephilim (I like them, anyway), but he never said anything about being a Christian fundamentalist.

I wouldn't have gone that far, but the whole "black magic" and "satanist" thing certainly implies a very strong Christian viewpoint and fundamentally misunderstands what McCoy is about regardless.

To wrap up my comments on this in one post and hopefully put an end to my part in this fairly dramatic derail:

I get why FotN is a very acquired taste — I can't think of another band that requires the same level of 'buy in' from the listener. Their whole… thing only works if you accept that it requires a completely straight face. There's no knowing wink to the audience that you get with the Sisters — FotN channel iconography that's equal parts post-apocalypse spaghetti western and The Fog, filtered through McCoy's largely impenetrable belief system that centers on Chaos Magic.

That's either Cool As All Fuck, or completely ridiculous. You don't have to believe any of it, but you do have to accept it and play along, or it's all just very daft. The thing is, if you do buy in, it's incredibly rewarding — I'd argue to this day that 'The Nephilim'* (aka 'The Brown Album') is one of rock music's all-time capital-G Great records, and their live shows are mesmerisingly brilliant.

If you don't want to buy in? Well, nobody's making you listen to them.

(Aside: similarities between the Preacher Man video and Hardware are hardly surprising, since it was directed by Hardware director Richard Stanley, several years before he made Hardware.)

*Vinyl track listing. There's an extra track on every version you find now — Shiva — a single B-side which was originally stuck in the middle of the album as 'bonus' on the CD version but which breaks the pace of the album in a way that's borderline vandalism.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 16 October, 2020, 01:33:25 PM
Bit harsh there, Sheridan. We all unconsciously pick up preconceptions peddled by eejits, I don't think fundamentalism has to enter into it.  Tjm's faith seems to be the good kind that, as an atheist, I wish was more widespread.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 16 October, 2020, 02:09:17 PM
Whenever Nephlim get's mentioned I always think of my mate who had a porn tape* labelled "Nephlim Live" because it was a guarantee his missus would never watch it while he was out.

*VHS, it was about 20 years ago and DVD hadn't completely taken over yet
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 16 October, 2020, 02:41:48 PM
Hrmn ... my wife has a large collection of knitting DVDs ... I wonder ... OH MY! Now that is seriously woke!
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 16 October, 2020, 02:58:07 PM
OH MY! Now that is seriously woke!

There are a surprising number of short movies available on the internet that easily pass the Bechdel Test. I never realised that being a feminist was so sexy.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 16 October, 2020, 03:18:10 PM
OH MY! Now that is seriously woke!

There are a surprising number of short movies available on the internet that easily pass the Bechdel Test. I never realised that being a feminist was so sexy.

I've watched quite a number of them, in order to strengthen my sense of solidarity.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 16 October, 2020, 03:39:07 PM
Woke thread + comic nerds =  pr0n confessional.

Could this have been predicted?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 16 October, 2020, 04:07:44 PM
Could this have been predicted?

I'm as surprised as you by this startling turn of events.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 16 October, 2020, 05:57:58 PM
(slinks away)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 17 October, 2020, 10:54:31 AM
Oh, and they consider their concerts to be black magic masses.  Sort of like the satanist equivalent of Christian worship music.

This is so far off-topic for the thread it's making my head hurt, but you have literally no idea what you're talking about.

Quite possibly, in which case my apologies to anyone who I have offended here.  Possibly a while since I've thought of the Nephilim.  I have to be honest I did actually enjoy their music back in the day and didn't even think about some of the more bizarre allegations that some head-bangers throw around about them.

As for my own religious predilections which have been alluded to on this thread, I get (and actually agree with to a large part) the problems that many folks around here have with Christian Fundamentalism (or any religious fundamentalism for that matter).  Since it's the sort of thing that does tend to generate heated exchanges I generally steer clear of those sorts of discussions.

What I will say as far as other religious views is concerned is this:  each to their own.  It's a bit like the old joke about the Anglican Priest who dies and expects to be met at the pearly gates only to find himself being greeted by Old Nick.  When he asks why he is there as he has always been a good Christian and done everything by the book he is told, "Sorry, the Jews (pick your faith) were right."  So in some respects I feel that Blaise Pascal had a bit of a point with his gambit about faith.

So once again, my apologies for my error, confusion, ignorance or just downright stupidity.

... and back to the usual service.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Jim_Campbell 17 October, 2020, 11:26:29 AM
So once again, my apologies for my error, confusion, ignorance or just downright stupidity.

Ahh, yer fine. We talkin' porn, now. :-)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 17 October, 2020, 07:24:45 PM
So once again, my apologies for my error, confusion, ignorance or just downright stupidity.

Ahh, yer fine. We talkin' porn, now. :-)

Hot Damn!   :P
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 17 October, 2020, 09:02:40 PM

When I was still just a trainee youngling, I thought "porn" must be some kind of foodstuff or crop.

Of course I eventually learned the truth, and thus began my lifelong aversion to the Jolly Green Giant.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 17 October, 2020, 11:12:24 PM
You will now be forced to write a short strip showing the REAL Jolly Green Giant and his positive, wholesome influence on your life.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 18 October, 2020, 07:22:25 AM

I'll try but it'll be corny.

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 18 October, 2020, 09:05:55 AM

I'll try but it'll be corny.

Coat ... NOW!
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: The Legendary Shark 18 October, 2020, 10:15:59 AM

:D

: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 18 October, 2020, 11:53:24 AM
Oh dear.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 18 October, 2020, 04:31:49 PM
Finally, we're back on topic, as we discuss how the Jolly Green Giant is typical of the sort of tropes we've seen for years about vegetable-based vertically-blessed humanoids of an undefined disposition.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: ChickenStu 19 October, 2020, 12:11:55 AM
Finally, we're back on topic, as we discuss how the Jolly Green Giant is typical of the sort of tropes we've seen for years about vegetable-based vertically-blessed humanoids of an undefined disposition.

🙌😁
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: JayzusB.Christ 22 October, 2020, 06:23:46 PM
Now, here's where the use of 'virtue signalling' gets very problematic for me.  By framing Marcus Rashford as a publicity-hungry fake, you get to justify your decision not to feed hungry children, even as you eat at your tax-subsidised canteen and throw other tax subsidies at posh restaurants to keep them open during a pandemic.

Maybe Rashford is doing it for the likes. I don't know. But either way up, the result of it is that poor children get to eat. Or not, I suppose, in this case.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1318963850016968705 (https://twitter.com/i/status/1318963850016968705)


: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 22 October, 2020, 07:20:21 PM
Accusing people of "virtue signalling" is a bit like saying "shouldn't we be arseholes, though?"

"You're so vain ... I bet you think this desire to feed poor children is about you, don't you? Don't you?" etc.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: shaolin_monkey 28 October, 2020, 04:10:58 PM
Accusing people of virtue signalling is just arsehole signalling really, isn’t it?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: shaolin_monkey 28 October, 2020, 04:25:25 PM
Haha, whoops! Sorry Funt - I see you’ve already made that exact same point!! 😆
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tjm86 28 October, 2020, 04:38:02 PM
Accusing people of virtue signalling is just arsehole signalling really, isn’t it?

I thought that was wearing a Tory party badge ...

 ::)
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 28 October, 2020, 05:32:34 PM
Haha, whoops! Sorry Funt - I see you’ve already made that exact same point!! 😆

Plenty of arseholes to label, clearly.  :-\
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Mister Pops 29 October, 2020, 07:55:51 AM
Rashford may have scored a hat-trick last night, but don’t get taken in by his blatant talent-signalling.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Tiplodocus 29 October, 2020, 09:24:22 PM
So a chap on one of the Vegan groups I'm in started a discussion about the insult "soy-boy" and used a pretty poor choice of words in his post. He was immediately piled on for using ablist, transphobic and homophobic language. He continued to argue in same vein, the thread was shut and he was ejected as being a bigot.

That's a shame, I initially thought. We all use the wrong language occasionally. But then I looked at his FB posts (public). And yeah. He is a bigot. And conspiracy theorist. And Covid denier.

Not sure what my point is but I thought it strange that someone who shows compassion in one area of life gets it totally wrong in others.
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: Funt Solo 29 October, 2020, 10:09:28 PM
Aye, that reminds me of someone asking "What's the new fella like?" and the response being "Oh, he's okay - he takes a toke" - as if smoking the ganja is some kind of positive character reference, as opposed to a simple predilection.

That new Borat movie has two conspiracy theorist Republicans who think Biden drinks the blood of children, but who were kind enough to take Borat in and shelter him from the threat of Covid.

Nowt as queer. Also, aren't all Vegans [insert insulting stereotype here for humorous effect]?
: Re: Thought Police: Are we allowed to query 'woke'?
: TordelBack 30 October, 2020, 10:32:12 AM
Not sure what my point is but I thought it strange that someone who shows compassion in one area of life gets it totally wrong in others.

It's the eternal contradiction of humanity, isn't it?  So many lovely people I know have their prickish side, and so many utter pricks are capable of surprising decency.

I can think of a number of old friends who are otherwise open-minded, gentle, generous people, but each have one specific area of bitter nastiness that they never seem to outgrow: sectarian, homophobic, anti-Traveller, respectively.

You wouldn't know anything about it until you push that specific button. And it really wouldn't be the one you'd associate with that flaw: the homophobe for example has at least two long-term close friends who are gay,  but to hear her talk about other LGBTQ+ people in her profession or public life is genuinely shocking.

So I avoid those topics, and increasingly over the years, them. It's sad, and I wonder are they even consciously aware of their own attitudes. I then wonder what my awful hidden-button-ism is. Possibly overly aggressive condescending atheism? Can't say I'm very tolerant of golf either. But I'm sure it's something far less innocuous.