2000 AD Online Forum

You know, Dredd's clone daddy.

I know you're out there somewhere Logan...

Eustace T., I think.

Not sure of the spelling, though, and I'm not sure where thaqt comes from (maybe the DC version).

Tricky... it may have appeared in 2000AD first. Annoying question that, because I can't quite place the name's origin [it'll keep me up all night trying to remember...!]

- John

Link: Judge Dredd Justice Central

Fargo only appeared in person in Prog 559 [?] during the OZ mega-epic, only in flashback, and his first name was not given then. Maybe his memorial statues have his name inscribed? Did somthing like that appear in the Hall Of Heroes during the Apoc War story?

- John

For some reason the name Eustace struck me before I looked at this thread, and I haven't read the DC comics...

Eustace doesn?t appear on Fargo?s tomb in either the Day The Law Died or Apoc War. In Destiny?s Angels he?s just Judge Fargo, father of Justice. When we learn that Fargo is Dredd?s ?father? in the doubts trilogy ?A Case For Treatment? Fargo is once again just referenced as the Father of Justice. Without digging through a load of old stuff I?m sure Eustace was first used in the DC series and then referenced in the A-Z Of Dredd as the author of that tried to tie in the DC stuff that had appeared into the book. From there it seems to have stuck.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

I wasn't reading 2000AD when I bought the A-Z, a purchase purely on nostalgic grounds. I was pretty confused over the DC Comics continuity additions. Years later, like a gimp, I bought the DC collection - and happily gave them away to a pal who seems to like them.

- John

I was pretty sure that it was Solomon. I think it was mentioned in the cursed earth one where Bob Booth was sentenced.

Cheers for the replies, I like Soloman.

Anyway it might not matter now anyway...

No, I think Solomon was definitely someone else.  I think he was Chief Judge after Fargo.

Solomon replaced Fargo [possibly as an interim measure until Goodman was inaugurated]. Continuity is up the creek in that area, but I tried to make sense of it in the Justice Department RPG sourcebook.

- John

>Solomon replaced Fargo [possibly as an interim measure until Goodman was inaugurated]. Continuity is up the creek in that area, but I tried to make sense of it in the Justice Department RPG sourcebook.

Hopefully its something that John will address when/if he ever writes MC 1's history.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

Eustace it is then.

Another question: Has Dredd ever had any kind of commendation in the Academy of Law or elsewhere. I'm looking for some kind of award or two(two actually).

The Initial E is used for Fargo in the Blind Justice storyline.

Sure Dredd has many commendations for bravery and like his writer he probably throws any awards in the nearest trash compactor.

Dig out the Mutie The Pig strip and you?ll see another pic very similar to this one from ?The Academy Of Law? (Prog 27 ? 28) strip and you?ll see in another pic very similar to this one Dredd mentioned in the honour roll box




La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

The name Eustace was only ever given in the DC Dredd. There was the initial E in "the Cal Files" story but this might not stand for Eustace as the DC and 2000AD versions of the character are completely different. In the American comics fargo was evil, in Wagner's stories he is incorruptible, so the American comics are not really anything to go by.

There is no evidence that Solomon was ever chief judge: he only ever appeared in one episode and is not wearing the chief judge's uniform. There are numerous things that point to Goodman taking over immediately after Fargo.

In the Return of Rico remake in prog 951 we see Rico graduating first in his year and getting a trophy while Joe comes second and gets nothing.

Has Dredd ever had any kind of commendation in the Academy of Law or elsewhere.

He's an honorary Stookie. The furry little fellahs gave him a badge.

>There is no evidence that Solomon was ever chief judge: he only ever appeared in one episode and is not wearing the chief judge's uniform. There are numerous things that point to Goodman taking over immediately after Fargo.

Except that the dates dont tally, I'm not that bothered by contiuity but sure at some point John Caliber will give us the exact dates, but here's some stuff that was sent to me by Robin Low when he found out I was doing some research for John Wagner' Robin's assumptions are taken from many sources like the role playing game, the progs etc and he's filled in a few gaps.

2051
Judge Solomon reluctantly takes over as Chief Judge on the death of first Chief Judge Eustace Fargo, at the insistence of the other members of the Council of Judges, the ruling body of the Justice Department of which the Chief Judge is the head (Date of Fargo?s death from his tomb in JD-The Day the Law Died, Prog 107; the idea that Solomon is made Chief Judge stems from the timeline in the original Judge Dredd Roleplaying Game, however it does explain his leading role in the Grand Council of Judges that deals with Robert L. Booth in 2070).

2058

Solomon steps down in favour of Judge Goodman and returns to the streets where he is happiest (an assumption based on JD-The Day the Law Died, Prog 89 in which it is stated that Goodman had been Chief Judge for 43 years when he is assassinated in 2101).

Dredd's early continuity is a can of worms and you can try and guess or fill in the gaps as much as you want but until Wagner writes it its just guesswork. One day hopefully he'll do it, his great swansong maybe.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

Hey Will,

Here's what I came up with for the latest Dredd RPG timeline:

2070 - Great Atom War begins

2071 - [war continues] Chief Judge Fargo assumes emergency command of American Senate following charges levelled against President Booth. Fargo tracks Booth down to Death Valley, but is seriously injured in the final confrontation.

2071 - Acting Chief Judge Solomon charges Booth with war crimes and sentences him to 100 years suspended animation. The judges dissolve the Senate and place MC-1 under martial law. Bowing under pressure, Fargo returns to power, but his poor health make his tenure a temporary one at best.

2072 - Fargo finally dies of war-related injuries. Clarance Goodman is elected to succeed him; Goodman's friendly and peaceable manner is popular with the war-weary MC-1 citizens.

That's about it. I'm not too hung up on continuity any more, relinquishing my anal powers after leaving Mongoose. My basic stance on Dredd continuity these days is 'whatever.' Makes life easier :)

- John

Link: Judge Dredd Justice Central

The original GW RPG continuity is pretty much obsolete in light of later developments. 'OZ' states that Fargo was alive during the Atom War [2070-71], so he can't have died twenty years earlier :)

- John

In the Return of Rico remake in prog 951 we see Rico graduating first in his year and getting a trophy while Joe comes second and gets nothing.

Which, scarily enough, I read last night.

ELWOOD would be better.

Surely it's 'Wells' isn't it?

Eric Fargo.

I'm for "Endeavour" myself.

Elvis.

Elsie

Cut. Paste. Et voila!

The inscription on Fargo's tomb ['The Day the Law Died' (Prog 107)] states:

HERE LIES JUDGE FARGO
2001 – 2051
FIRST CHIEF JUDGE OF MEG[A-CITY ONE]
FATHER OF JUSTICE

Presumably John Wagner has simply ignored these dates as 'Oz' (Prog 559) suggests Fargo is still Chief Judge some years after the Atomic Wars of 2070. This is somewhat at odds with 'The Cursed Earth' (Prog 68) in which Grand Judge Solomon presides over the trial of President Booth in that same year, a role that should have been undertaken by Fargo. Perhaps Fargo, having been critically injured, is unable to fulfil his duty as Chief Justice; alternatively, he might be missing, presumed dead during this time and thus Solomon is merely Acting Grand Judge of an emergency council of Judges. Until 'The Cal Files' (Progs 959 – 963), it was still quite feasible for Fargo to have been born in 2001. Although no dates are given, the footage of Fargo and Arden Polders is presumably taken c. 2061 in order for Joe and Rico Dredd to be five years old in 2066. For Cal's blackmail ploy to work, Fargo needs to have been an established figure by the time the footage was shot. Likewise, Arden needs to be of an age still capable of natural conception, even if the scenario being played out is nearly sixty years from now. I oul suggest that Fargo was born c. 2046, making him 46 years old when he was having his supposed affair with Arden; an age that, even if she were his twin sister, is still plausible for her to conceive twins. Fargo's experience and achievements should also be taken into consideration when deciding his date of birth. The Constitution doesn't make any specifications as to the qualifications of a federal judge, there being no minimum age or residency requirement; it's assumed that federal judges are appointed because they excel at law, a prerequisite being that they've had the minimum training necessary. As for his death, any date after 2058 is going to contradict Goodman's forty-three year tenure as Chief Judge ['The Day the Law Died' (Prog 89)]. However, with revisionism in mind, it's possible Fargo is still alive to supervise the progress of Joe and Rico up until their graduation from the Academy of Law: although if so, he's conspicuous by his absence during the flashback sequences in 'Blood Cadets' (Progs 1186 – 1188).

In the new Dredd bio. given over on the Dredd vs. Death game website, Fargo's first name is Eustace.

I've mentioned this elsewhere but the main problem with Dredd continuity is that too many assumptions are accepted as fact, most of these having arisen from 'A History of Mega-City One', the unofficial chronology of Dredd's world that featured in the 1984 Judge Dredd Annual. There are ten points of contentious history contained therein, nine of which were affirmed by the original Games Workshop RPG, eight of which are still being perpetuated by the 2000adonline timeline.

It never states explicidly that Solomon is the Chief Judge (or even Grand Judge...the title doesn't change until 'The Day the Law Died', and 'Deputy Grand Judge Fodder' gets killed off in the first episode of 'The Cursed Earth'), he's merely the judge in charge of President Booth's war crimes trial.  Presumably, he's someone known for the wisdom of his judgements - and war crimes tribunals aren't usually headed personally by Heads of State.

However, there are a couple of judges who appear in the White House to read the Declaration of Judgement and impeach Booth - I assume one of them is the Chief Judge, specially as the one at the rear looks suspiciously like McMahon's Dredd.  Neither of them are Solomon.  

Its at times like this that you can fully understand why sci-fi/comic fans get a bad image, something as simple as John wagner not really checking out a couple of dates in the early days when a comic only lasted a few years and 26 years later people disagree over which ficticous character may have done what.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

>Presumably John Wagner has simply ignored these dates

Or simply didnt remember, forgot of didnt do it for any reason other than he hasn't the best memory 8-)

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

That's how I saw Solomon's role, Lobo - as Chief Prosecutor, not Chief Judge. You never know, Solomon may have been the originator of the Justice System penal codes themselves?
- John

'Presumably, he's someone known for the wisdom of his judgements - and war crimes tribunals aren't usually headed personally by Heads of State.'

To be precise, if the President is impeached, the Chief Justice presides over the trial. But Logan's right. Stop all this silliness. Stop it. Stop it now.

++Stop all this silliness. Stop it. Stop it now.++

All right, I'll go then...

Can't I add the line in "Blood cadets" that suggests Goodman didn't become Chief Judge til after Dredd and Rico graduated?  No?  Fair enough.

> That's how I saw Solomon's role, Lobo - as
> Chief Prosecutor, not Chief Judge. You never
> know, Solomon may have been the originator of
> the Justice System penal codes themselves?

Presumably the Judgements of Solomon?

Surely Fargo's first name should be Ethan?

Stop it now, his first name was Sue, he was the son of Johnny Cash. Hence the coupon that looked like a sklelped erse.

A tranlation of that that sentence is avaiable in Babblefish.

Huffsta

++ Can't I add the line in "Blood cadets" that suggests Goodman didn't become Chief Judge til after Dredd and Rico graduated? No? Fair enough. ++

alright then [here goes ...]

Fargo is Chief judge before and after Atomic War; Solomon is never chief judge, but chief prosecutor. Fargo either dies or retires between 2071-[approx] 2085; he is then succeeded by Goodman. Alternatively, if Fargo did pop his clogs very soon after the Atom War, there might have been another, unnamed chief judge prior to Goodman.

Wasn't Goodman supposed to have served for many decades, though ...?

[excuse me while I lay down]

- John

I think Gareth has made the best and m ost logical point, having at least shown wehre he has made assumptions.

Wagner of course could contradict or straighten out a lot of this stuff or just ignore it.

As for comic fans and their ways, well, isn't continuity the very reason we are getting this story?  Because we are actually interested in Dredd's world and how it works?

Jeez, talk about a can of worms.

I was only wondering...

Ok then, story pitch....

Sometime in the past, around the time of Booth's trial, something very big, and very bad heppened that the Judges in power dont want people to know about. It, in some way, incapacitated Fargo for a while, or maybe it didnt - maybe they just wanted people to think that.
Now if John Wagner was to write a nice, long mega-epic that covers these points and tells us the REAL story, it can tie up all these loose continuity points as flaws in an ongoing cover up.

Ooooh, i think i need a lie down as well...

>Now if John Wagner was to write a nice, long mega-epic that covers these points and tells us the REAL story, it can tie up all these loose continuity points as flaws in an ongoing cover up.

Didn't John mention something like this in an interview he did with tripwire recently, sure somone must have it.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

In "Tale of the Dead Man" when Dredd passes his final test Morphy says "Fargo would have been proud of you," implying that Fargo is dead by then (2079).

As for the Cal storyline, it's full of contradictions: best to just ignore it. They didn't expect Judge Dredd to last for very long until the '80s so didn't bother making it consistent until after Cal ended.

Judge Cal story?

hrrrmphpatmillshrrmph, hrmph.

Sorry, just clearing my throat.

- Trout

Hic.

Well let's nitpick, then. It's established from 'The Judge Child Quest' that Dredd doesn't like Judges with facial hair. Yet Morph, his mentor and examining Judge, is sporting a 'tache in the Doubts Trilogy. As for Morph himself, Wagner can't seem to decide if it's 'Morph' or 'Morphy'. Grud, the only similar sounding surname I've ever heard is 'Morphew'. As Paul suggested, we fill in the gaps 'cos we're fans. That's what makes Dredd's world so interesting, until Wagner says different.

Alan Moore sums up my views on continuity perfectly:

"If you condradict previously established continuity to some degree you are destroying the readers accumulated trust in the narrative.  A reader who had perhaps read every previous issue - if only to then come along and say it didnt happen, and the new version is like this - then that reader, I think, would have every right to feel that his or her time had been wasted.....thats the sort of stuff which erodes readers faith in the comic medium.

I doubt Sherlock Holmes would be such an important fictional character today if halfway through his series of Holmes stories had suddenly decided to change vital parts of his already established history.  Continuity mistakes are one thing - they can happen dead easily, but where a piece of continuity is deliberatley papered over or ignored, that is something I dont think does the industry any favours at all."

Of course, what we have here are those "continuity mistakes", made mostly between two writers in the early stages of the storyline.  Its fun to try and make sense of the information you have - like a jigsaw puzzle, or those logic problems of old.  The old "continuity is geeky" argument is understandable given the fist waving that some do over minor mistakes, but for me the acid test is: is 'crying geek' just an excuse for laziness/forgetfulness on the editors/writers part? Do the continuity changes serve the story, or would they have worked just as well without (I'm looking at a big Wall here! :)) I think if the writers of Coronation Street suddenly gave Ken Barlow an ex-wife from the 70s who we never saw on screen, people would cry foul.  It's not geeky to question contradictions - it's human nature.  

Yes, that's the argument I've been trying to make for a while.  That messing up continuity destroys the reality of a strip and loses readers interest and that it only takes half of an imagination to get round any problems anyway.  

But, easy for me to say snce it's never really been a problem I've had to solve myslef.

Too true PVS!

It takes little effort for a writer to get his facts right; if you're that apathetic, just ask the readers to give you the info before you write the script; that way, even the laziest hack can get extra prestige for his 'conscientious' approach to the strip continuity without having to do any research himself.

Sniggering at readers for caring about the details of wonderful strips such as JD is a childish smokesceen for the mercenary business of rattling a script off while swilling beer in the pub and making a break with the money before anybody notices you've screwed up the continuity established by previous [and often more respected] authors.

A litle effort goes a long way...!

- John

Like many things, it's a question of where you draw the line.

As long as a change doesn't radically (and erroneously) alter Dredd's world and future stories in it, or make us groan with discomfort, I don't mind.

Equally, if its a genuine mistake (like the West Wall one) I don't get too worked up.

I freely admit to liking the detail of Dredd (see recent "Dredd's pouches" thread), but to getting annoyed when readers get into a "No Prize" discussion.

I say go with it. Allow the writers a little leeway. It is, after all, fiction, and if a blip occurs here or there, then what difference does it make?

- Trout

Would you all feel wronged if John wagner wrote a definitive early history of the judges and mega city 1 and ironed out all the conflicting dates and events.
I think it could be a good thing that way if any writers would then do storys set in the past,such as the recently done in the megazine,they'd just check with John Wagners and everything would match.







definitive

I think making sense of the chaos is a good thing, fitting in with the majority of facts, bending others etc.

I think there's a difference between ignoring or confusing continuity, expanding and explaining it and the sometimes needy wishes of fans, who want to know all the contents of Dredd's pouches, despite the fact knowing those details has a negative impact on the storys that can be told (though for something like a rpg it can be admitedly important).

I think making sense of the chaos is a good thing, fitting in with the majority of facts, bending others, to make the whole thing work better.   Showing other facts to be innacurate or disorted facts etc. can be done as well, but obviously a fair amount of caution and reservation is probably wise.  

"a childish smokesceen for the mercenary business of rattling a script off while swilling beer in the pub and making a break with the money before anybody notices you've screwed up the continuity established by previous [and often more respected] authors."

Hey, then again, I fancy a piece of that action ;)

I think to be fair, the problem often is that unless you have an encylopaedic knowledge of all Dredd (and I know I don't) it's pretty easy to do something that contradicts something that has happened previously without realising it.  Wagner's done it probably and I suspect it's fairly inevitable.

The problem at the other end of the spectrum is that the detail becomes the devil and it's all factually correct, but the stories are pants.

Ah, worms, cans, upset, everywhere...

I'm not picking them up.

I meant to say that writers who are going to be with a long-running strip for quite some time - or are contracted to write major additions to the established lore - should make the time to do back issue research - it's not something they have to do to get paid, but it goes a long way to impress the readers.

You cannot of course expect this of writers who are drafted in to write the odd one-shot.

If anybody has the 'license' to rewrite Dredd it's John Wagner, since he has made the strip the hit it is - I'm certainly not having a pop at 2000AD's best writer bar none.

Again, major continuity cock-ups are one of those things you can feel significantly miffed about to pen these posts, but at the same time feel a bit daft because in the end you're only talking about a comic; depends how much you like the comic, I suppose!

- John

No I didn't think that you were having a go at Wagner.  I'm just saying that Wagner works in probably just the same sort of workmanlike way that Gordon Rennie does, the chap who I assumed you were having a go at.  

I doubt very much that Wagner spends much time agonising over past stories when he writes his new one, obviously as he has written a lot, he has a good idea of what's up with Dredd's world without having to reach for the back progs.

And it's worth making the point that Gordon appears to go to lengths to check his facts, while John obviously is trying to avoid continuity clashes by asking Mr Logan for clarification on such matters...

So its not something that most writers are guilty of, the odd slip not withstanding

True.  Gordon's opinions on continuity in comics (which he has stated before and I disagree with to an extent) seem to be based on what makes a good story, which is fair enough.... I suppose }:

It's not reallly reprehensible to ask the board what sound a stub gun makes.  As there are plenty of people with a large rack of Dredd material at their fingertips only to happy to help with this stuff.

From memory, Wagner has an office he works in.  Buying the odd drink in a quiet local pub to work in I imagine works out considerably cheaper if you can get away with it.  I doubt very much that he is a 21st century Hunter S. Thompson :)

Anyway, without getting too sidetracked, I think a few of us here at least agree that continuity is important enough.  In fact anything where continuity can exist (films, tv, whatever) I think you'll find the audience usually does find it important, whether that's errors in Friday the 13th or Emmerdale farm.

I'm not actually having a pop at Rennie either, but popping at hacks in general.

I've said before that since I left the RPG work, I've really eased up on writer's Dredd mistakes. In hindsight, I would rewrite most of my Mongoose source material - especially the Justice Department book - making it lighter and breezier [that would be in a perfect world, mind; the books had to written in a very dry, technical manner which I felt went against the grain of the Dredd concept, but I digress].

I didn't even mond the timeline problems with the City Wall in that last Garth Ennis story, or Chief Judge Goodman's bulking up; I just enjoyed the story! I read it again last week and it is, well, Zarjaz; a mega-epic in three chapters!

- John

In the "Who is Judge Dredd?" panel, p5 of Extreme Edition, Chief Judge Fargo's name is given as Eustace.  Presumably we can now take that as definitive?

Hey! Maybe there were TWO Fargos. One was the Father of Justice and ruled wisely until 2051. Then Solomon takes over, but steps aside for Fargo's clone. But uh-oh! That crazy bloodline! He's all over the crack hoes and snorting ground-up Elvis remains. "I'm the Chief Judge dammit! I can put the King up my nose if it is my whim! DRAW dammit! For I am the best!" Pity he spent the last month in low gravity. So Goodman blows him away and takes over - after which, or even before which, they decide they really can't have another Fargo running around and name the latest batch of two after a random combination of three letters.

Wow! I bet I could write an american version of JD with this made-up knowledge. All based on nothing but this thread, mind you.