2000 AD Online Forum

Got a DNA storage and profiling kit from my ex-girlfriend for Christmas. You can take a swab and store it in a non-degradable environment and also send off some DNA for a full run down of your CATG profile.

There's lots of blurb in the pack about how you can preserve yourself for generations and it could conceivably lead to cures for diseases and it's a touching memorial for those you leave behind yadda yadda yadda

But I'm in two minds as to whether I WANT to preserve meself.

It reckons that you can't be cloned out of such a sample cuz the profiling breaks up all your genetic code etc etc etc there's also my concern about databanks of DNA profiles being abused by those in power/uncorrectable mistakes being made ...

So ...

Would you preserve your DNA for all eternity? And should I?! Do I want my flaws and weaknesses revealed to a cynical world? Do I want to risk knowing my future? Am I just in a state of turkey-overdose shock?

Of course, if it meant I got to meet Uma Thurman at some point in the future ... I might consider it ...

 realistically how is the government going to abuse  your DNA profile? what possible nefarious plans can they have?
 I'm as paranoid as the next man but I dont see  how your profile can be used for evil in any practicle way.Same with ID cards what exactly are people scared of?

aspic, vinegar, vodkaH, salt maybe... i dunno i'm a bit wierd about these things, ive preserved some of my Genes in my crazy kids, & hopefully with the correct nurtureing, the line of queenly warrioresses stretching back to Boudicca, shall be preserved for EVAHHHHH, ( if only i could over-ride that bit about being trampled on by oppressive forces, the 'silly-cow' gene )...

but i dunno if i'd stick any in a text tube like.... but i'm then i'm dominated by a heathen ludite gene.

wheres General contrary ? this is his field..

You'll never take my genome alive, copper!

course they'll have to bar-code us all too....

Must confess, I've never understood the anti DNA database lobby.  I can't see how it will stop me doing anything other than something criminal - I reckon you've got more to fear from the criminal/mentalist than any Government, who are too incompetent to be actually evil -   I mean, are they going to clone you?

I'm as paranoid as the next man but I dont see how your profile can be used for evil in any practicle way.Same with ID cards what exactly are people scared of?

Insurance companies are already starting to demand to know whether you have ever had a DNA test in the same way some of them demand to know whether you've ever had an STD test for life insurance policies. What's wrong with that, I hear you say? They are, after all, only protecting their investment. But what happens when people start getting refused policies because there's a genetic chance that they'll develop heart disease in later life, or cancer, or Alzheimers. It may sound far fetched, but insurance companies are already beginning to toy with the idea of genetically screening. Over time, you create an 'underclass' of the uninsurable. After a while, what's to stop employers demanding DNA swabs at an interview? Family predisposition to depression? No chance of the job. It's their right to do so, so how you going to stop them? Even if you make it illegal, what's to stop them getting your DNA from a cup of water, a stray hair left in the interview room, a touch on a doorhandle?

Then you have databases of DNA against which samples from crime scenes etc can be checked. Where even the smallest human error can have disastrous consequences. If I'm 'matched' with a crime, who's gonna question the DNA evidence? Yes there's the appeal system, but someone has still been locked up for something they didn't do ... Same with insurance companies. Eventually, they could establish a legal right to know that information. I'm okay with them denying me insurance for something that HAS happened, but not for something that COULD happen. I have a family history of alzheimers ... but I may never develop it. How unfair is it if I'm denied the chance to care for my loved ones just because there's the remote posibility that I might?

You can call me a bleeding heart liberal or 'do-gooder' if you want but as far as I'm concerned, information about my medical history is confidential and so should info about my genetic makeup. If someone wants it, they should ask for it. It's about choice. If the police suspect me of doing something then they should arrest me or ask me for a sample, which is then destroyed. I have a huge moral objection to the police going on 'fishing trips' in a database without the need for authorisation (i.e. with permission of a judge as they currently need to when doing, say, a search). What's to stop me being fitted up and having the key thrown away? Bugger all.

As for ID cards, it's the same principle. Say - for example - that purely through human error, one of the details on my 'file' is inputed incorrectly, or something gets added that shouldn't have been? What if it means I lose my job? Then, if I have a wife and kids, I might lose them too. That's a terrible cost. Yes, these things can conceivably save lives, but is that the cost of saved lives? Destroying more lives?

It's all about information and my continued right to keep information about myself confidential.

If you could prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that ID cards and DNA databases are not going to be a) abused or b) prone to mistakes that could, conceivably, cost people their lives, then I'll accept them. To be honest tho, I have yet to hear anything more than unprovable plattitudes about a system that cannot be removed once it is in place.

Er ... rant over. Soz.

LMS has hit it on the head really.  There are a number of cases of wrongful arrests, police being convinced of a conviction or even dodgy or suspect confessions.  Until a system is fool proof then unfortunatley, giving the police, courts or the establishment powers that may move the establichment of guilt.  Currently its up to the police to prove your guilty, powers like this may mean, you have to prove your innocent....  Slight but important difference.

Personally Im just against any restriction of civil liberty...  and Im half drunk so if its incoherent appologies

Errr LMS your ex hasn't asked you to be on the Trisha Show has she? Been seen buying pregnancy testing kits? Recently had an unusally tall baby?

I would preserve my DNA if there was some guarantee that the cloning process woould go wrong and produce some hideous, shambling monster with a vague resemblance to me.

That has to be hunted down and killed violently.

But kills a lot of innocent people first.

Wow. This is good stuff.

- Trout

Interesting points, Mr M.  I tend to side with Jim on the subject of ID cards- but I feel that it's too open to abuse at the moment.  The only way to be absolutely sure that the person holding the ID card is who he says he is is through the use of biometrics (please excuse all the following laymans terms)- retina scans, fingerprints- all the rest of that gubbins- but even that's still open to abuse at the moment.

Like you, I'm not keen on my genetic profile being on a database until I actually offend.  Does anyone know how difficult it is to get any kind of life insurance after having any sort of cancer?  A mortgage?  I'm not 100% sure- but I think it's pretty difficult.  Imagine an insurer knows that you have a genetic predisposition to a certain condition- is he going to cover you for that?

It's stupid anyway- everybody dies sooner or later.  Greedy twats.

 What do you mean by "fishing trips?" The DNA database acts in exactly the same way as the fingerprint one, a sample is run throught the complete system and if a positive match is found then that person becomes a suspect.
 A person detained on a DNA hit is then retested and the new sample compared against the test sample.Thats it. Its not a system thats readily open to abuse. I believe that to the extent my DNA is already on the systme on a voluntary scheme for elimination purposes.
 I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on this LMS, a walk down any street in the UK will show you how far we are from living in a police state, and you have to balance the rights of the individual against those of society,in this case I think your vastly exaggerating the risks to the indivdual and that the safeguards already in place address some of your concerns.
Jim
 

"with permission of a judge as they currently need to when doing, say, a search"
 Your in for a shock if you ever take a look at the Police and Criminal Evidence Act. In 4 years and scores of searches I've needed a magistrates permission precisely once.

Wouldnt the fact that everybody has had a DNA test mean that insurance companies wouldnt be able to discriminate?

soooooo longman, given your feelings about dna databases which just popped out in that rant, & given the fact that your ex gave you that kit... which is very wierd... i think youve just answered your own question at beginning of thread. youre not keen on the idea are you?


"and today on tricia we have people whos ex's have DNA profiled them... tomorrow we will be featuring Christmas divorces/breakups & love quadrangles.."

That would, I suspect, be a more reasonable onjection. Especially in the States, where Healthcare is all insurance based AND it's usually employers whofoot the bill (and so would be likely to discriminate based on that).

I wouldn't do it. You see I have a bizare triple helix. The US givernment might banish me to the Cursed Earth, or better know as Canada :)

Will Alpha

Longman's right about the propensity for errors in ID cards but really you're just as likely to have that sort of thing happen nowadays, maybe with an ID card you'd only need to report the error to one place rather than traipse around 6 different companies?

Talking of dna my parents were going through an old box of my baby stuff (I now know what date my first word was and that sort ofthing) and included was hair (no roots though) but also baby teeth, including a bit of blood. Maybe I could get cloned from that in the future!

nope - i would never trust anybody else, if it was free i would consider but bound to be cocked up anyway

if some of the simplest things can go as wrong as theey do - then this could be a terrible disaster

lms

a) a clone is not you, it would not have exactly the same life experiences as you and hence would be somewhat similiar but not the same

b) no system of anything is 100%

c) obviously this is further proof that your ex is bonkers which is , of course, why she dumped such a top bloke like yourself

d) unless some massive strange sci-fi movie population reduction went on i dont see why people in the future would try re-create ordinary joes like us anyway

I don't know what all the fuss is about, I've created a clone army of myself in the attic - well handy if you fancy taking over a planet or two

ahhhh, they might be clones but whatabout the different personality nuances created by their asrtological profile eh? how would that work anyway, from when the clone was born or when the donor.... i mean can you imagine ....an army of me's is horrific enough, but what about an aries or tuarus me? ooo shudder.

zeig heil mein Bou, das global domination ist imminent, ja.

and, if the clone was made in Russia, would it be a soviet me? i would like that, can i have a big hat please? DA!

DNA encoding.
differnt issues on this thread.
we have 100% id cards here. without it you cant do anything.(its taken a few years but seems to work now)its big brother all over of course.you cannot even buuy a bus ticket without an ID card.get the picture.

as for DNA coding. i see the potentail healthcare problems. the Gatchia syndrome sort of thing.
which could easily happen. employers not wanting to employ a person with family diabetic problems.or an insurance company not willing to touch you for the same reasons.

i would say if anywhere does for this it will be SINGAPORE first.for reasons of detection and monitoring.

as for preserving my own DNA i dont wish too.i woudl say the whole thing is far to new to be a complete success at this time.
i go for the sardini stuffing.and leave me in the will for someone.

If i thought i could trust the government, then id have no problem with either dna databases or id cards.

But i cant trust the government with my info, and i cant trust them to keep it secure either.

So, for the time being, im with LMS!

dna for insurance, when i rang up about a mortgage they asked if anyone in my family had certain diseases and if i drank,smoke so nothing new there

dna for insurance, when i rang up about a mortgage they asked if anyone in my family had certain diseases and if i drank,smoke so nothing new there

Doesn't make it right, Jason.

or that being tested for certain things should be held against you ? surely being sensible enought to be tested makes you a better insurance gamble?

Maybe you could have yourself slabbed, in case you turn out to be valuable in a few years...

surely being sensible enought to be tested makes you a better insurance gamble?

No, because the people they'll want are those without inherited diseases or with very low risk of them. Those who have a risk will become uninsurable because no insurance company is going to allow someone to take out a life policy when, in all likelihood, they're going to die from it. That's not how these people make their money ...

:: Same with ID cards what exactly are people scared of?

The fact that we already have one, but that it's being ignored. Everyone has an NI card, and that could be used just fine. However, the government wants to introduce a new card, and that makes me rather suspicious.

If it was like Iceland's - a form of ID that can be used in stores as proof of ID and address, marital status and no more, and isn't compulsory to carry - that would be fine. However, current and recent government policy suggests it will be considerably more intrusive than that (and if you don't think so, bear in mind this government introduced the RIP bill).

The fact that we already have one, but that it's being ignored. Everyone has an NI card, and that could be used just fine

Quote taken directly from the base of my NI card:

'THIS IS NOT PROOF OF IDENTITY'

And why? Well because it isn't carefully monitored, it contains only my name, no other details that could be used, and the NI number itself is mostly useless, not being linked to any details about me unless it's used by the IR in their records!! This isn't an ID card, it's just a reminder.

ID cards
National insurance numbers are invalid as soon as you leave the country.you cant be traced once you have left on one of them. but an ID card will be linked to everything.
from your passport( same number will be used) to the credit card you apply for,in what ever name you want.to the bus pass you buy and the bank account you need to get your wages.
your internet provider will request it for any new account or upgrades you require as will your new mobile phone contract.

be very aware what you are getting when you say ID cards whats wrong.
we all have them here. its 100% big brother.
to note.here even cars are electronically tagged. to get the tag unit? thats right you need your ID card.

ID cards. bigger then you can imagine. im not exgeratting. its simple and easy with electronic tracking these days.

Insurance is the sharing of risk.  Unfortunately, as we develop more powerful techniques to predict future health we will share these risks less and less.  To my mind health insurance should be a process by which the lucky buggers who will not get a heart attack will pay into the pot to support those who do.  Increasingly it is a process by which all the unlucky bastards who are at risk of needing expensive health care more or less pay for it.  Of course, this health care is expensive so the doubly unlucking schmoes - those who are poor too - can expect to cark it without seeing the inside of a cardiac care room.  Of course, those likely to have their pump pack up are likely to be poor too, as employers are not going to train, or even employ an early death case with all the extra costs.

Now, there are a few ways to go before we get there.  Let it be, and have red in tooth and claw market determination of who shall live.  If you agree with this, you have the politics of mass-murder.  Just because the deaths are hidden behind the mechnism of the market, doesn't mean that allowing the market to determine life and death isn't a political choice.

Or we could slap regulations left, right and centre all over insurance and essential finacial services.  By this we could ensure that every person could access affordable mortagages, credit and insurance - and credit is more or less essential to live the 'common life' here in the UK.

Or we ensure national, tax-funded (or subsidised) provision of these services.  This is the only way to go for me.  I think I've voiced my most basic objection against the first, and I think the second is unworkable given current business rhetoric demanding less and less regulation (you know, like pesky minimum wage and employee protection laws).  There is no way I can see heavily regulated equal insurance provision survival an assualt based on 'choice' and the 'market'.  Nationalised services on the other hand - well, let's start by defending the free at point of use NHS for all residents of the UK, and watch for any divisions those advocating the breaking up of the NHS might sow in the ranks of those that use it - excluding certain people or certain diseases through xenophobia or moral distaste.  I might think smoking is disgusting, but when smokers are barred from NHS treatment there will be a 'next' group and a 'next', until the only people receiving treatment free of charge are those who live blameless 'sin-free' lives.  Kind of brings us back to 19th Century efforts to create a class of pious, hard-working and temperate Christian workers - nice labour machines for the use of a class, who, by their wealth, could afford to disobey all these modern 'commandments'.

Bah!

ID cards, DNA databases.  Against them in principle - would like to see them tightly regulated.  The whole idea demands we concede that there are some people so wicked as to demand surveillence of the whole population.  Given such extremes of wickedness, is it unreasonable to assume that some (perhaps less) wicked people will get hold of this surveillence power?  Why do we in Britain think that we, and our powerful people, are somehow categorically different from all the other peoples on this Earth, who can demonstrate through their histories the dangers of power and the tragedies of their abuses.

A surveillence state makes a police state redundant.  

Sincere apologies for this overlong post.

Andrew.

(p.s. LMS - have you ever met Bernard Dineen at work?)        

And once again in principle I agree with the General.  But and isnt there always a but.  

The problem with society today and in part that leans us towards the question of DNA databases and ID Cards is that there is a severe lack of personal responsibility.  People who smoke do cause the NHS more money, well so stop smoking?  People who might be obese cost the NHS more money, so try diet and exercise?  People who Drink, cost the NHS more money, so try not drinking too much?  Now Im sure as a society we can help with these things, but in the end its an individuals choice and many of these people live at the wrong end of the social spectrum, so instead of the big stick we need a larger carrot, Im just not sure what that can be......

Yer "once again incoherent ramblings" Slips

yeahhhhh ! the only readable long poster !

NI cards we've all got them?  i havent. But my numbers N* ** ** ** C just like my post office pin numbers ****
internet banking ****
bank accounts ****
****
****
and *********
my sort code is ** ** **
etc etc etc ...

is the human brain designed to remember all these sodding numbers & passwords ?! and you forget them & yur f**cked..

ooops sir i lost my ID card. "KERBANG ! clunk."

"Doesn't make it right, Jason." - insurance is a business, nothing to do with right and wrong, young men must pay more insurance to drive fast cars because the risk is higher, same with mortgage repayment insurance risk

I already have preserved myself....

Link: far too many pictures