2000 AD Online Forum

It is amazing what a couple of nights without sleep will do, last night was the first time this week that I have been able to sleep for more than 3 hours solid and a though popped into my tiny little mind. "Was the autumn offensive that bad?"

Okay, back this up. I'm not going to go digging through threads looking for quotes but I have received the impression that the last offensive of 2003 wasn't very good. In fact some comments have gone so far as to say that it was awful (IIRC).

Why?: Dredd had a dodgy run with an artist. Fair enough. Siku has come into some right stick on this board and that may have even caused him to avoid Dreddcon. Shame. Yes his Dredd is at best a parody, and some of his storytelling is a bit weak, but did that really deserve some of the HATE that was vented here? Logan was at least able to back-up all his comments, which is more than can be said for some.

Dead men Walking also got a lot of stick, mostly for its plot. It may be a case of the strip was run at a bad time, seeing as it coincided with the nostalgia fest that was Harry 20 over in the meg, but at least some of the comments on the board seemd to think that the prison thing had been done before and that the characterisation was not so hot.

However, the biggest thing for most was the choices made for the faux curses (Vuck, shiv et al). These are poor but anybody reading the board lately will have seen numerous instances where the stylings have been adopted for 'board speak'. Same goes for the 'I'm top Bitch now!' Catchphrase.

Does that mean that Dead men Walking is a failure as a strip? Not in my eyes, Boo Cook did another stand-up job and the story, although cliched, did the job it needed to do. I liked it by the end.

Synnamon: This was worried about from day 1. The second story from the team that produced 'BISON'. I admit that when I saw the preview image in the prog I was a little concerned, but I was more bothered that it was going to be pasted before it got started. At least the board held judgement on that and waited.

The worst thing about Synnamon in my humble opinion is that it, like Dead men Walking (DMW), suffered from being something less than an instant classic. The story was well told, the pace was steady and I found the art to be stylish and for the most part dynamic and clear.

Durham Red: This is the most jarring of the line up in that it is not a stand alone tale, it is the next chapter in the tale. This lead to confusion as to plot and back-story and The Harrison droid was held to task over his changing faces artwork.

Personally I enjoyed this, though I do find Harrisons storytelling to be weak at times, and I thought the art was much clearer and easier to follow.

Sorry for going on but I don't want to give the impression that the last set of tales was a failure. 2000ad is an anthology, and the nature of the beast is that we will inevitably get stories that don't work for an individual. Moreover, the message board irregulars are a very vocal, but small, grooup out of the readership of the comic and the comments raised should not be held as the watermark of the entire readership.

Phew, rant mode off.

Bolt-01

I'm in the middle of the offensive right now and I think it only suffers bcos of the previous run of strips was so good. Dont mind Dead Man Walking and think it's a good story helped imensly by Boo's top art.  Synnamon seems like a cool story so far aswell definite step above Bison(which I didn't mind) for it's creators, and I've liked Durham Red since the whole sleep, wipe out continuity reset saga started and it seems to be developing quite well.
All up liking the offensive but still cant wait for prog2004...

CU Krestel

Well ranted Bolt! Siku was well below par in that story but didnt deserve the HATE as you put it. Usually hes brilliant, for mine. Anyway, some of the blame should have gone to the writer. the story wasnt THAT bad.
  The Durham Red story could be good, we will see. I too am enjoying it so far. Dead Men Walking wasnt bad.
  Syannmon really, really blew in my opinion, but it didnt last long (and the forgettability of the characters made it seem shorter)
  Youre right about the message board irregulars being a vocal minority.  they definitely have a different perspective to people who dont compare current issues to everything else the comic has done.
 I think the other factor was that the Autumn offensive came just after a brilliant summer offensive. Anything that followed that was bound to be disapointing.

dang, some students have shown up.

yours hampered by a wonky keyboard,

Overall, i found the offensive a bit of a let down.
DMW certainly started to get better after what felt like a rushed beginning, but was let down by an ending that i saw coming from a mile off.

Synammon was boring. I honestly preffered Bison! (no, really!)

Durham Red is a bit of a weird one, as this is the first time ive found myself reading a Durham Red story and i dont have anything to compare it to. A bit like soft porn, but fairly enjoyable. (Great last frame!)

No offence to either Siku or John Smith, but the less said about that Dredd story the better!


Cant really remember anything else from the offensive at the moment, work keeps getting in the way!
So, overall a let down, but not terrible and certainly readable and JUST worth the cover price!

Got high hopes for 2004!!

I didn't mind the offensive, certainly not the "worst run ever" by any stretch, it was just bad timing I guess.

The reason I didn't reckon much on Meatmonger was not just because of the Art, which disrupted the flow of the narrative and looked too murky, but the story itself which felt slightly lazy, a by the numbers job.

Dead Men Walking ended up my favorite out of the whole offensive, probably because the great Art and plethora of cameos smoothed out the bumps in the story.

Synamon didn't really do anything for me, it was just cliche after cliche, again, it wasn't helped by the artwork.

I just dislike Durham Red's current "Space Slut" incarnation because it feels like Abnett hasn't concentrated on this as much as he possibly could have. Harrison's art is improving greatly though and I've finally managed to work out what's going on.

Kibblelogistics was great, lesbians and flesh eating cats always impress me :)

So, the offensive to me, flet lazy and half done apart form Caballistics and DMW.

Of course!! Cabbalistics!!

How could i forget that gem of series?!?
Hats off to messrs Rennie and Reardon for one of the highlights of the year (and this year, hopefully!)

Feeling quite ashamed of my poor memory now!

Wul

Well for the first time in absolute years I was skipping stuff over-Synammon and DMW.I really thought these were weak (and I didn't despise Bison at all)
I would defend Siku to a certain extent,but as you say Bolt,Logan seemed to be the only one who made coherent points about his work.As I've said previously i just *like* Sikus style(same way as I liked Steve Sampsons stuff*duck*)and as for Durham Red,I'm reading it as a separate story ie not having trouble with continuity and have enjoyed what Dabnett has done with it as space opera...Funny how Harrisonn doesn't get the same level of criticism for his storytelling as Siku...

Cabbalistics was just pure class as usual,and not because of the variable quality of the other strips.Extra bananna for the Rennie,I'm sure you'll agree.

M.

While the last thing I?d want is for the Prog to be run on the word of the folks here, I?m not too sure you can make many assumptions as to whether the views here are representative of a wider readership or not ? for a start, there isn?t usually much agreement here, anyway.  About the only thing we do know about the people here is by being here, we know what they think, and that?s about it.  Are the 99% of people who aren?t apathetic or contented or just as annoyed but don?t have the time, will or ability to sign up to a message board? Maybe they don?t think their opinions would be valued, or don?t feel the need to express them for a variety of reasons.  The only real answer is we just don?t know.

I?d say that since 2000AD is a quite small audience, and generally has a long standing readership (?85%!!!?? 85%!!!???!!!!?*) there?s a chance that the views here might be a little more representative than elsewhere ? the real truth is we just don?t know, but there?s little else by way of feedback but here these days.  Of course, you could argue that in the olden ?Golden? days, 2000AD was run by a similar ?vocal minority? ? those who filled in the voting slips.  This definitely affected what appeared in the progs, with the lowest scoring stories being dropped.

If there?s anything that can be said about the faults of the Autumn Offensive you?ve probably highlighted them yourself in a way ? at best, you?ve  damned it all with faint praise (excluding Caballistics).  Following on from a Summer offensive didn?t do it any favours sure, but isn?t that  like saying a dunces score is only bad in relation to a genius, so we should let the dunce pass the test? :)

My disappointment with the Autumn Offensive is probably down to the number of potentially controversial/divisive strips being ran all in one go.  If you're going to have a run of non Wagner Dredds, then get a "sure-fire" artist.  If not, then make sure you've got something else "sure-fire".  as it was, there was an overload of stuff with either no track record, or a track record of mixed receptions.

* Message board/Dreddcon  in-joke #145

Sorry Dom,forgaot to praise the pencil monkey,who'll probably appreciate the bananna more

M.

Following on from a Summer offensive didn?t do it any favours sure,

This year, they should move the autumn offensive to spring, and move the summer offensive to autumn, leaving that space for the winter offensive. That way the prog will get progressivly better as the year goes on ;-)

i would say
each stroy was good.art on the whole good. but as a whole not fantastic. except caballists which was outstanding.

each script with its art would have stood well on its own.but as a collective it was not really outstanding, also with its comparison to the last two offensives, it did not stand up to the high levels set.

not really poor, just not as good as we had come to expect.

SIKU to be honest i felt was taking the P**s. it was not even a parody, just shoddy. im no fan of his artistic ways. but he has produced some outstanding art in his style.the dredd was lazy and had so many errors it would have failed at a CSE art course.
the starborn thing was there then not.
the number of bike tracks where less the script called for. so many basically i dont give a damn errors.

to be choosen to work on 2000ad is a priveledge,the finest scribes and artists in this medium have done so over the years and still do.
to take it and waste it as he did with this was unacceptable.
though Tharg should have been more willing to say NO!.it was not an aceptable level of effort.

Perhaps spring and summer should give autumn a miss and go straight to winter?


Wul(definately NOT stealing Python materiel!!)

Actually you say this as a joke, but there has been a problem with scheduling hasnt there.  Tharg (or at least editotially) has poorly scheduled the Autumn offensive, swapping round something like DMW and/or Synnamon with slaine or Stront or something else; may have improved the reception of the autumn offensive and only slighlty decreased the summer offensive.

Of course having said that you can only publish what you have really......

YEr Slips  

"but as you say Bolt, Logan seemed to be the only one who made coherent points about his work."

So Logan's 'Oi Siku, it's a fucking eagle' comment was backed up with an in-depth criticism of eagles was it?  Or the rest of the people who made a criticism of Siku's artwork were incoherent hatemongers were they?  One person posted 'Siku must die' as a joke.  It's a poor joke, in very bad taste and it didn't get much support, but it's obvious that's what it is.  Why don't you go back and read those comments before making lame assumptions like this.  

I enjoyed Siku's previous go at Dredd in the tree story, but didn't think the artwork was good enough or coherant enough in this one.  I said that at the time.

As for the chin, Siku has set out to deliberately provoke ('piss off' were the words I've heard) readers by drawing Dredd with a stupid chin, recently and in the past.  That's fine, but when you do piss those people off and they say where you can go stick your chin, then going off in a sulk doesn't get my sympathies.  

I'm sorry Siku wasn't at Dreddcon, but it was his choice.  If he'd pulled off a masterclass Dredd with a stupid fucking chin, he might have got away with it, but he didn't.  Very few people want to see their favourite characters drawn as a joke.

Personally I didn't think much of the Autumn Offensive, I thought it probably looked OK on paper, but didn't come off in reality.  I'm not going to dismiss it as rubbish, but I didn't read three of the five strips in it to their conclusion.  

Dredd was okay, but was overlong by two episodes and the art as has been said could have been tighter.  Caballistics wasn't bad (I know lots of people like this one, so it was a bit of a silver lining for them), and I've never been so pleased to see a Tales of Telguuth in my life.

As it is, it didn't really gel and basically not long after the feedback came in we started seeing the carrot of prog 2004 being waved.

It's basically the problem with offensive programming that you'll end up annoying just about everyone eventually.

If you have runs of stories that tie up the mag for two months solid that's going to piss a percentage of people off as they wait for something they like to come along (if you have a block of old traditional characters followed by a block of new experimental characters then chances are you might upset everyone).  

If you actually shake up all 2003's strips and had a proper anthology magazine (as in different types of strips at different times) with strips starting and ending all the time (not in blocks) you could have had a comic where just about everybody could have been happy all year round and when they weren't happy they knew that in a week or two something they like might be starting.  

As slips said you can only work with what you've got and I'm guessing there isn't much leeway to hold strips back for long, so Tharg doesn't have this luxry.  As was said at Dreddcon, they have a limited budget for strips that have yet to be published.  If the offensives are being dumped as is rumoured, then I believe that's a positive thing.

There really is no point getting the hair shirts out, it was just a pretty insufferable time for certainly some readers, but once it was over I think just about everyone was pleased with the Meg and Prog 2004 line ups, or at least some part of it.

We all appreciate that the comic will be better at some times for us than others, that's the nature of an anthology comic.  The offensives just made the sunny days sunnier and the gloomy days gloomier.  And though the Autumn offensive may have been pretty gloomy for some, it's over and so for most people I imagine is the problem.  

I reckon 2004's going to be a great year from what I've heard at Dreddcon, the Autumn offensive progs are all safely piled away, and I'm off to visit the Postie to see if they have the next prog.

Thrill Ho!

I actually enjoyed the Dredd story, and I didn't have a problem with the Dredd chin.  I did have a problem with the unfinished look to the art.  Now, 'incomplete' art can look dynamic, drawing the reader's attention to the action etc., but if it achieves that effect it is 'finished'.  Meatmongers art didn't quite get there, but I certainly didn't mind it.  One of the reasons I am such a big fan of 2000AD is the willingness of the editors to take risks on both art and writing styles.  Without this it'd all be bland 'John Byrne', instead we get O'Neill, Hinkelton, fully painted Bisley, Harrison etc.

And I enjoyed the Meatmonger story - more so than much of the Autumn Offensive.  

Well, there are two problems with the art, which may or may not bother people.

1.  The chin.  I imagine people who are more into Judge Dredd get more annoyed about this than casual readers.  Would Caballistics fans be happy if one of the characters was drawn as a parody in the next series?  Would Watchmen have been better if for one episode Dr Manhatten was green for no obvious reason?  Whatever the rights or wrongs of silly chins, anything which distracts the reader from the story is not a good idea.  Doing things to purposefully annoy those freaks who read Judge Dredd is not a good idea.  Basically whether you liked the chin or not, some people didn't and it impacted negatiovely on the strip for them.  Whereas having a pointy chin, probably didn't improve the strip for many people, beyond having a chuckle.  

2.  The Art.  Apart from looking rushed or unfinished, which as you say can be an artisitc choice as much as anything I guess.  People had problems with the actual storytelling and working out what was going on.

On both points artistic flourishes should come second to the demands of producing a decent strip.

At the end of the day I thought Meatmonger was an OK strip which could have been really good, with the same two people on board.  As I said previously (in one of my incoherant outbursts no doubt) I'd even welcome the same two people doing another Dredd story.  Meatmonger was an okay story, it worked on some levels, didn't on others.  It certainly wasn't a disaster.

What I'm interested in is whether Siku will do any more Dredd and if so will he draw Dredd as an even more grotesque character in answer to the criticism, or will he put out a Dredd that most fans can enjoy?

I personally thought meatmonger was okay the art wasn't all that good but the story was okay.

I liked Dead men walking not exactly the best strip ever but it passes.

Durham red: why wasn't it put to pasture long ago it just feels like a part of the rubbish that spewed out of the final solution storyline (y'know that one where johnny got blinded and killed)

Cabalistics inc: truly genius it is a truly great strip which works even better after reading the krystalnacht story in prog 2004.

Synnamon: i believe i was a bit unfair with this story...i think i overacted...but it still doesn't hide the fact that i really didn't like this story i hope whatever the creative team behind this and that other strip have planned next will be better than this.

telguuth: err never read them so cannot comment.

agree with PVS on the chin issue.

Logan on the offensice issue.

watcher on the assumptions issue.

Autumn wasnt too bad just miss timed.

yeah cabbalistics is really good but i find it bizarre that theres a general pant-wetting excitment about this & vomiting about everything else.

synammon will become a strip that in a couple of years i can't remember, tho its wasnt too bad.

DMW, was fine, art work great.

Durham was fine, tho these chapters n books break things up un-naturally.

The Thrills were still there tho, roll on 2004

Jings, chill...

For me the 'big-girl' ringbash was a bit of an anti-climax, not much in the world of comic was challenged by it, the stories were fine, nothing to make one stop and think but we've suffered a lot worse before.
The artwork over all was good, The only problem I had with the Dredd stuff was that it didn't 'flow' smoothly, maybe that's a credit to other artists who carry Dredd onward rather than a real slight to the big S.  

On Siku, best of luck to him, you'll fine that most critics, with the notable exception of Logan, don't really have a lot of knowledge of how various artist have 'played' with Dredd's iconic image in the past, we suffered some s**t in the 80s I can tell you.  

I can imagine Siku not minding meeting Logan, they are both growed ups, but I can see why he would feel like life was a bit bigger that the chinwagglers/navelgazers/spleenventers who get upset aboot these basically petty items.


Huffy B

"So Logan's 'Oi Siku, it's a fucking eagle' comment was backed up with an in-depth criticism of eagles was it? Or the rest of the people who made a criticism of Siku's artwork were incoherent hatemongers were they?"
"Why don't you go back and read those comments before making lame assumptions like this."


PVS-I'm not making a lame assumption,I have read the posts.But I'm perhaps calling to mind Logans long standing,erm,debate about his 'relationship' with Siku.I read the stuff and I get an impression which sticks;a lot of peeps seemed to just wade in with same old comments.

M,who just might keep his opinions to himself in the future.

Nah, best to get em out in the open Mikey.

Some of Logan's critique was backed with reason, some wasn't - the same goes for other posters.
There is little point backing up every comment with reasons, as often the reasons have been stated already(either by the poster him/herself, or by others).

Also - if someone gives no reason/backup to their opinons, it doesn't invalidate them. On this board we're fans/customers - NOT reviewers.

Meanwhile...

Meatmonger Dredd - I thought (overall) it sucked. The art was sloppy & badly laid out - double page spreads especially so. The story was weak - should have been shorter - and the cameo aliens seemed cheaply used.  I did like the first 2 episodes, & most of the last one, but the middle I quite disliked.
The Inside Job was great fun though, & I liked the In Club.

DMW had great art, and while I didn't much like the story to start with, it grew on me a lot & I was really enjoying it by the end.

Exact opposite with Synnamon - liked episode 1 & went downhill from there.  The idea was done better in the Rose O'Rion series.  Nice art though.

Durham Red - I liked this, good art, good story (so far). I can understand why others might not like it though.

Cab Inc - just great.

Not rubbish as offensives go, but much weaker then previous offensives in the last couple of years.

"M,who just might keep his opinions to himself in the future."

Say what you want, but there are basically a handful of people here who have made sweeping assumptions about the people who post comments on this board.  

You are wrong in my opinion and sidesweeping a whole bunch of people (except for some reason Logan) by calling them incoherant, petty, hatemongers, idle chatterers, navelgazers, bileous and all the other things that have been said on this thread is just a fucking insult, not making a point.  This pisses me off more than any stupid chin.  Do you understand?

Hey all. jus thought after babbling on about nowt for a couple months, i'd actually post something comic related....

I always used to be a big fan of Siku. Some of the stuff he did a few years ago when i first started reading was drop dead gorgeous and very distinctive. But i'd have to agree with most of you (without the HATE!) that Meatmonger was a bit off and not up to the standard that i remember. (At this point i should own up to the fact that i rarely remember who drew/wrote what, which is why i haven't posted on artwork threads!) Meatmonger just looked...a bit odd. Not in a good way.

I totally loved DMW. Yummy art, just 'cartoony' enough for this irregular's tastes. Good characters too, not classics but refreshing.

Synnamon - yuck. Read two episodes. skipped the rest

I always love Durham Red, she's just one of my faves and can do no wrong. I'm a bit worried about the appearance of Johnny Alpha as (please don't shoot me!) I've never really got into him as a character.

That's about all i have an opinion on. By the way, Oddboy, nice letter this week!

Yours, eagerly awaiting the return of Nikolai Dante,
xTGx

By the way, Oddboy, nice letter this week!

Really? GO ME!

What prize do I get? The postcards? That's what I was after...can't remember what I wrote now, so don't say - I'll read it again from the prog.


One dead chuffed Odd boy.

"Was the autumn offensive that bad?"

no it was far, far worse - the offensives are supposed to be a 'jump on' point for new readers, they have become more adveturous but this one just seemed...

well a little bit desperate really, it smacked of filler material and rebellion must have been affected in some way otherwise there wouldnt have been the rumour at dreddcon that they werent going to do another 'offensive'

i didnt enjoy durham reds script (and she has little to do with the original character, i think dan abnett may be taking the p*** a bit using an established character to launch an otherwise unconnected story)

i didnt enjoy dead men walking and i skipped psynammon as the story didnt make me care about her very much, it was just one thing after another

the dredd strip also got weaker and turned into filler towards the end (this is the offending 'meatmonger' siku story, which aside from siku's unique take was also obviously rushed and i dont like the chin - i dont like it)

basically this is the problem with offensives while u can pick up new readers or tempt back irregulars, u are taking the mick out of your hardcore subscribers who are your bread and butter

if u dont like all the stories and then they get worse u may as well stop reading but if u are a subscriber u cant, this means that the autumn offensive became an exercise in fleecing subscribers and i am considering cancelling my subs

thats how bad it was

i did actually defend sikus art and the only problem i had with it was the 'chin'

the thread in question was indeed a joke and i took it as such in my reply, i was going to carry it on but some people didnt seem to get it and then the tone meandered

i could see what he was trying to do with movie style cut scenes into the page and a rough movie board feel - but u could tell it was rushed and unfinished

the other important point is that not everyone is using the swear words from 'dead men walking'

some people do seem to have liked the story but that also does not mean they can speak for everyone

i thought the idea of anthology titles was so that u could appeal to a broader readership, not fill all 32 pages with filler material

if u thought the messageboards were bad about the autumn offensive u should read the chat logs

sneck!!!

>I can imagine Siku not minding meeting Logan, they are both growed ups, but I can see why he would feel like life was a bit bigger that the chinwagglers/navelgazers/spleenventers who get upset aboot these basically petty items.

Sat next to Siku at the 2000AD 25th Birthday bash at the Ministry of Sound and a very nice chap he was.
I try not to have a go at any person but if I don?t like a story whether it?s due to script or art I say why. I don?t like Siku?s artwork, never have and in my opinion its got worse and whilst I?d happily not see another Siku Dredd story, I?d have no problem having a drink with him, as long as we could find something else to talk about 8-)


La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

>(except for some reason Logan)

Because Mikey knows which side his bread is synthi-spreaded.

La Placa Rifa,
W. R. Logan.

If you have runs of stories that tie up the mag for two months solid that's going to piss a percentage of people off as they wait for something they like to come along (if you have a block of old traditional characters followed by a block of new experimental characters then chances are you might upset everyone).

If you actually shake up all 2003's strips and had a proper anthology magazine (as in different types of strips at different times) with strips starting and ending all the time (not in blocks) you could have had a comic where just about everybody could have been happy all year round and when they weren't happy they knew that in a week or two something they like might be starting.


I gotta agree with this second paragraph. BUT some strips which have been "okay" have suffered this label, and not become "classics", because they have been scheduled to appear with a strong line-up of other strips. If they'd been scheduled amongst weaker strips, then they would have shone out as potential-classics, instead of mediocre strips.

Who'd be an editor, eh?

well lucky Thargs an omnipotent Green god-like alien huh ? Imagine the arse some poor human would make of it ?


I like the comments that surely we don't have to back everything up around here, throwaway comments on a fan board... i suppose the troubles come when they're personal, dodgy ground there. e.g its wrong for me to say "that TRout IS EVIL & must die " but okay to say " The works of that Trout are evil & must be stopped"...

Siku certainly stirred up a hornets nest , didnt he!?!

IIRC i said something along the lines of '...i dont like the art on meatmonger, but id still like to see Siku used on other stories...', or something like that.

I dont think Siku is a bad artist, far from it! His work on the old Pan-African stories in the meg was great and really well painted.
I just think he doesnt suit Dredd that much, especially when he alters the look of Dredd to a degree where he simply doesnt look...well..right!

I do agree, though, that personal insults towards Siku, or comedy death threats for that matter, dont help anyone.
Critisism should be constructive towards all involved.

yours not-wanting-to-look-like-a-twat,
Wul

Well, the thing is Wooly and Stront and all the others that had a problem with Meatmonger, is that it's become trendy all of a sudden to say you're vindictive sheep for saying so (that's Bolt-1, Proudhuff and Mikey so far).  The get-out clause seems to be if you've hobnobbed with him.  

What an outrageous load of toss.

It never was that big a deal, it was a six-part strip and some people have said they thought the chin or the artwork in general was off.  That's a fair point as far as I'm concerned.  I've argued that point, coherantly (and mercifully briefly), above.

In particular most people were reacting to the stupid chin, which as far as I can tell, was done to inspire just such a reaction.  The reaction would have been about ten times worse if the meassage board had been running when Fetish came out, where Dredd was drawn as a chin with legs.  The reaction to the previous Siku Dredd (the tree story) wasn't as bad, because Siky basically did a much less exagerated Dredd than he usually does.

Unlike logan, I actually think most of Siku's art is OK, and wouldn't object to seeing him do Dredd again, IF it was better than the last one.  A lot of people who had problems with the Siku art on meatmonger thought it wasn't all bad and could have been better.

Basically I'm sick of being lumped in with other people and accused of having motives I don't have.  If you actually do think people HATE Siku (and as we've never hobnobbed with him, we don't really know him), then basically ask the people involved and they'll tell you they don't.  It's that simple, you're wrong.

What you are confusing it for is the strong feelings that people have over the way a comic strip is drawn.  That's no more petty than saying you disliked the last James Bond film, or Eastenders has been a bit rubbish lately.  It's just an opinion, there's no conspiracy, it's not part of a HATE campaign.  

agree with PVS, we are expressing an opinion

u are welcome to agree with us or not really, thats up to u - just bcos we dont agree with u and state that we dont like him drawing dredd out of character doesnt mean we want to burn him at the stake or anything

i dont know the guy but im sure hes fine, we would have to find something else to talk about if we ever met (if he is touchy anyway)

another 2pence;

Its not just the chin & other ugly over stylised lines, i love some of his previous painted work. on meatmonger, The colours were muddy & all those shades you'd never want to use on anything, in fact maybe the hue/saturation slider was accidently shifted?  the story didnt flow, the story going across two pages was random & irritating, and the general drawing was sketchy & illdefined.

in my artistic appriciating opinion.

Siku - I was (am?) a fan and really looking forward to it, but felt badly let down by the Meatmonger strip which just wasn't very well drawn as far as I could see.

"Well, the thing is Wooly and Stront and all the others that had a problem with Meatmonger, is that it's become trendy all of a sudden to say you're vindictive sheep for saying so (that's Bolt-1,"

Paul: I dont recall saying people were vindictive sheep, I was just questioning the amount of negativity that the last offensive received. Personally I dont think Meatmonger was that bad, as you said it could probably have been a couple of episodes shorter, fair enough.

Bolt-01.

please - lets not mention the last offensive huh

im entitled to my opinion and i didnt like it, thats all im saying

The Watcher jumps in with his size 9s:

I think the disagreement probably boils down to this bit of your original post, Bolt-1:

"Yes his Dredd is at best a parody, and some of his storytelling is a bit weak, but did that really deserve some of the HATE that was vented here? Logan was at least able to back-up all his comments, which is more than can be said for some."

That does suggest that there was a sizeable number of people just calling for Siku's 'nads, rather than saying why they thought the art missed the mark so widely for them.  It certainly wasn't just Logan who backed up their dislike for the art.  Most of the posts reasoned why (some cos it was the silly chin and general "un-Dreddishness", some from more technical points like storytelling, lack of detail, consistency, confusion, it's unfinished look and the underlying strength of the basic drawing).

I have to say, if anything I thought the reaction to the Offensive was pretty considered on the whole.  There were some defenders of both Siku and the line-up, and I think overall, there was no mob rule - people said what they felt, and I reckon the majority felt it was the weakest run for some time - certainly, the voting reflects that.  

In a sense though, I can see some merit in arguing that people might have been blinded to hidden merits by previous high water marks we'd been enjoying prior to the Autumn line-up.  It's certainly a theoretically possibility for any new 2000AD story.  For me though, the faults in both story and art for this period were real, and not magnified in comparison to previous thrills - well,more than they usually are :)

The progs had a run of stories that weren't particularly gripping, and that in itself is damning enough, really - yes, we have high expectations, but I'd say we deserve high expectations, given the quality we know the prog can still achieve.  

On the subject of Siku's art on the latest Dredd -
I've not been keen on his painted Dredds (inc. Pan African Jays), although he's done some mid-to-good Sinister Dexter and Telguuth stuff. The one where Dex turns up to a hit with the same suit as a rival springs to mind.

So judging by that I'd concluded that Siku's painting was okay, but not suited to Dredd's world.

Then I read the beginning of Meatmonger - 1st impression was "That's *much* better then the paints he used to use!" Stupid chin, but I'd let that pass as the overall art was improved. After episode 1 though it all fell apart, - bad layouts, sloppy attention to detail (all the things bitched about above...)

Meanwhile - I'm also re-reading backprogs from 1999/2000 - I'm shocked to discover Siku doing not-painted Dredds: Revenge of Trapper Hag, Shakespear at War & Pumpkin Eater.  I didn't notice it was Siku at the time, because I thought Siku was a *painting only* guy (and at that time I didn't always look at the creator cards). This artwork is good - especially Pumpkin Eater.
Meatmonger sucks when compared.

revenge of trapper hag et al, i remember these stories and also didnt notice who drew them

arghhhh - is it possible to go backwards, WHAT is he doing...

(pulling hair out)

stront692

I also didn?t like much of the offensive. I guess it was a matter of too many strips being rather pedestrian. Maybe it was too much "bad girls" stuff in one sitting.

I absolutly disliked the Dredd strip. I thought the art unsuited for the plot and the plot not very interesting. Frankly I stopped reading after the second part.

DMW was a bit cliche heavy for me, sometimes the kitchen-sink approach works, sometimes it doesn?t. The swearing was stupid. At least the art was good.

SYNN was plain boring. I seem to belong to a minority, I liked BISON. But this was generic agent in space without a reedeming twist.

So if you have three tales which you just browse through, this is a bit much.

I like DURHAM RED, but I am a sucker for baroque space operas. Anybody read Simon Green?s DEathstalker novels? *g So who cares if Durham has the most stupid costume in the galaxy? *g

And CABs was just great.

Frankly, after the terrific summer line-up I guess the autumn offensive was a bit unbalanced. But you can?t win all the time *g

I`ve read those back progs and agree. Siku is brilliant but Meatmonger was a disapointment (to put it mildly). I liked his painted style better but the new style was pretty groovy too. I hope he can return to his previous form.
 Here`s to more Siku Dredd!

Floyd possibly repeating himself