I think Bou mentioned in another thread that she had an experience or two, but that they were for another thread.....here you go then....
So, what are they then Bou, and has anyone else had one?
To start the ball rolling...
Personaly the nearest I had was when I was about 15, led on the sofa listening to what was on the box when the next thing I felt was myself raising and then I was looking down on the Earth. Probably just a dream, but I remember feeling that it wasn't like any dream I had had before (or since). But, just a dream I'm sure.
WoD.
Tch! Go with the mundane answer, why don't you?!? Until science can prove otherwise, you astrally projected yourself into orbit.
I mean, it's so obvious! Bloody realists...
well maybe they were dreams or maybe... okay the really freaky one, cos i wasnt trying to do it & thought i'd accidentally just died was an hour or so after giving birth to middle kid,
home birth, difficult, she was BIG 9.10, it had gone quiet, family retreated to kitchen to let me rest, babe sleeping besides me, when suddenly i lurch, you know when you fall asleep & wake yourself up my twitching? like that but bigger, lurch forward like sitting up, sickening feeling in pit of stomach, then realise i'm sitting up higher than i'm supposed to be in fact i'm lifting up & starting to forward roll so i'm face downwards, except floating in spare, its pretty dark in the room, but i can see orange glow of heater & am aware that baby is okay sleeping down underneath me, i slowley spin around & then fall & end up at the bottom of the bed the wrong way around , feeling really sick & really wrong & scared but can't cry out, with a mighty consious sort of mental effort I snap myself back to where i was previously, it hurts, but i have control of my limbs again & do a lot of pinching self.
no it wasnt drugs i never touched them for birth or otherwise ( not since college anyhoo ).
prolly dreampt it, but swear i didnt.
I sometimes fall asleep for absolutely no reason
ahem, ive had a few "strange" experiences of this kind > but dont wish to discuss them on the board people think im strange enough allready!
to totally contradict what i just said on ICKE thread, heres a rant;
okay , You know how sex religion & politics can get dodgy around here...? well here goes....
So its okay to believe in one or another God, because faith & a book tells you its is so, & it is very wrong to judge people on wether they do or don't,
any yet, anyone who has experiences like the above, or sees ghosties etc etc etc, is afraid to admit it because they are instantly labeled fruit cake & loopy ICkE-type freak. YET millions of people see & hear & experience wierd stuff every day that Science & psychology CANNOT explain.. possibly because they too are terrified to touch these subjects, as they will be labeled crack pots. I will happily embrace any plausable explaination, I am a realist as well as a Romantasist. But what i refuse to accept is that i should deny & be secretive about my own REAL experiences because they do not toe the party line of designated consentual reality paradigms.
I mean hellooo, scratch the surface & the interface between our perceptions & the way we interpret them to construct reality is pretty fascinating yet ropey stuff.
My point being that if we lived in a society where seeing fairies was socially acceptable, we would all see them. So anyone thinking i'm a fruit bat for being open about these things can shove it up their judgemental inhibited narrow lizard bums.
"home birth, difficult, she was BIG 9.10, "...ooo its good to be a man :)
seeing stuff, nothing is impossible, just improbable...which in an infinite universe means...could happen all the time..
Bou -
Nobody's actually disagreeing with you here!
Yours
Mr Judgemental Inhibited Narrow Lizard Bum
YET millions of people see & hear & experience wierd stuff every day that Science & psychology CANNOT explain
Im not actually disagreeing with your major point, but our ubderstanding of the brain and science is farily rudementary, only really been going for the last 150 years or so. The things you are talking about are really difficult to prove scientifically. An experiment needs to be able to be repeated to be proven, its difficult to test these things once let alone twice. Its hardly, therefore, surprising that scientists steer away from this. There a huge number of things that can be investigated easily and proven.
Scientists and the scientific community tend to be open minded by definition, you can hardly be close minded if you want to believe in atoms (still never been pictured yet). But its difficult to believe in something that you can hardly prove (by tried and tested scientific method). See also my beliefs on religion......
Yer Slips
Quite honestly, Bou- it has occurred to me that he might actually be right- I just don't want to believe it- and that's probably the same for a lot of people who don't believe in 'stuff'.
We live in a world where we pretty much believe anything we're told- so long as it seems plausible- but then what is plausible? Basically (for the majority of us), anything plausible is based around other things that we've been told. For example- we are told that we went to the Moon and anyone suggesting otherwise is judged a crackpot. I don't actually know if it's possible or not- especially as I've heard very convincing arguments for both sides- but it was taught to me as fact and I never questioned it until somebody else did.
The only way I will ever really know is if I go there and look for myself.
Can anyone tell me where I was going with this please?
the moon - they left a reflecting dish so they could measure the distance between the earth and the moon,oh they went ok
the astonishing thing is that they really did spend all that money doing that fairly pointless exercise but it did leave us with smaller computers...which led to..this board :)
a few thousand years ago they would say you were mad for suggesting the earth was not flat...
perhaps, bou, because you live closer to nature than the rest of us your perceptions are more finely and naturally tuned ?
Link: close to nature says philosopher dude
hey i know that no-one was really disagreeing, but with eggies post, i generally i do feel that this subject area is hushed & uncomfortable, only after many pints & between close friends do people discuss their wierd 'experiences'.
but in my mind crack pot new-age hippy types are just as annoying as cynical heads.. just opposite poles of closed mindedness.
and i want an arguement... cummmmon if you think your hard enough .....
youre my hero/in
"So its okay to believe in one or another God, because faith & a book tells you its is so, & it is very wrong to judge people on wether they do or don't, any yet, anyone who has experiences like the above, or sees ghosties etc etc etc, is afraid to admit it because they are instantly labeled fruit cake & loopy ICkE-type freak."
evr heard the billy connolly sketch along these lines? It's okay to believe in god but if you walk up to the nearest asylum and say god speaks to you they wont even let you go home for your pagama's
It's very true. there if something dodgy about that. If you believe in god (which i don't, but many do and i respect that) and belive what the bible says, (which often depicts god speaking to people) then surely you must believe that god has chosen to speak to these people. Yes there are some nuters out there who'll shoot a bunch of black folk and say they are doing god's work, but these are the minority and psychologically disturbld (or racist bigoted f'ers). The majority of the worlds population are as sane as humanly possible. I don't remember the exact figure, but over 90% of the population believe in a god of somekind, they can't all be nutters.
I fear i may have veered of the topic slightly...:(
"the moon - they left a reflecting dish so they could measure the distance between the earth and the moon,oh they went ok"
That's exactly my point. You've just treated as fact something that's been told to you. You accept it as fact without even thinking about it. Of course we went to the moon- we left a reflecting dish there- everybody knows that.
But did they *really*? Would any average person really know? It could have been sent unmanned- or it might not even be there at all. It could all be a load of bollocks. I certainly wouldn't have a clue one way or the other- but I believe it because I'm *told* that it's true.
I think therefore I am... errr I think?
"But did they *really*? Would any average person really know? It could have been sent unmanned- or it might not even be there at all. It could all be a load of bollocks. I certainly wouldn't have a clue one way or the other- but I believe it because I'm *told* that it's true."
Taking that to its logical conclusion, aren't you're saying that anything *you* haven't personally observed may not exist/have occurred?
I don't know whether this is really your position or whether you're just putting it forward for arguments sake, but I personally couldn't live like that. I'm all for well-placed skepticism, but you have to put some measure of trust in what you're told by others.
conversation in pub last night, mostof us being pretty cynical but having lots of ghost & wierd stories to tell, lassie who really wanted to talk about kharma & chakrahs & who had the grooviest aura, was dissapointed that she'd never seen any wierdies....
so that rules out the theory that you see what you believe in.
"and i want an arguement... cummmmon if you think your hard enough ....."
well, either you can see things others cant or your mad
its that simple really
Not an out of body experience, but I have had that (supposedly commonplace) sensation where you can sense yourself passing through your own body at an angle.
No one is seeing any ghosts, apparitions or any other unfeasable shit.
Some folk have too much time on their hands, and need to invent spooky experiences to make themselves seem interesting - and adopt an agressively defensive attitude in the face of sceptics.
Same goes for bloody UFOs.
"Some folk have too much time on their hands, and need to invent spooky experiences to make themselves seem interesting "
HA HA HA HA!
yes dear, that's correct, oh grud why am i so dull & petty.
sigh, uninteresting BOU.
Acceptance is the first step towards rehabilitation.
You've just treated as fact something that's been told to you. You accept it as fact without even thinking about it
Well, no.
You hear a lot of stuff, learn a lot of facts as you go through life. Most of them hold into some kind of a semblance of order, have some kind of mathematical or other logical underpinning that seems to tie together. Some are really odd and seem not to fit within your normal conceptual framework. That gets filed as "wierd shit", and then you try to find an explanation for it within the framework through which you understand the rest of the world.
So your dream-that-came-true from a couple of weeks ago seemed to me to have an explanation (from the outside, not maybe from your own perspective) that made it fit in with the way I know the world to mostly work. On the other hand, I can't find a similar logical explanation for Bou's out of body. But nor have I experienced it myself, so it has to go into the "wierd shit" file as it's totally outside and for all the genuine respect I have for both you and Bou, I'm not going to change my idea of how the world works on the basis of a couple of people writing on a messageboard (I mean, for all I know you're a transsexual Braxilian streetwalker and Bou's a Ukranian trucker).
All I can say is "this doesn't fit with the way my world works", and my world works fine, thanks for asking...
"HA HA HA HA!
yes dear, that's correct, oh grud why am i so dull & petty.
"
or bou decides to keep shtumm and deflect doctors investigations ?
"so that rules out the theory that you see what you believe in"
well, there is the theory that you have to belive something before you can see it. how many people believe in a god, not becaus they have physical proof of his existance, but because they feel it in their heart?
yeah but i have very sharp 'previous incarnation ' memories, but i don't believe its possible, and certainly had never heard of it as a 6 year old kid, or earlier when i remembered this adult & historical stuff.... explain that? my theory is that stuff from the media & parents heads somehow filtered into even the babie mind & became sublimated as my own 'false' memory.. one of them is the sickening & visceral memory of being repeatedly stabbed in the gut & bundled somewhere dark it feels like the 60's & i'm sortof 8 - 12... when i was one or 2 the whole moors murders thing was going on, did my infacnt mind pick up on my mothers fears?
the mind is a fascinating thing my friends , but don't rule anything out.
or of course i'm probably attention seeking as usual, having no life n'all. ( whats an emoticon for ' you wanna kicking?' evil glare go like ? )
Of course you should rule things out.
Once the point is passed when you realise you are mortal and will die within around 80 years, it becomes ridiculous and time consuming to keep an open mind for unfeasable possibilities.
You only have one existence, and cannot deal with everything - filter out the unlikely and concentrate on what you know.
thats fine if youre convinced at an early age that you know everything..
i prefer to be less arrogant when it comes to knowledge & life.
One must be assertive in one's beliefs, or they will hold no water in argument.
Imagine if you knew everything? It doesn't bear thinking about!
The only thing im absolutely sure of in regards to life and knowledge, is that i dont really know that much.
Half of what we as a race know is wrong anyway (flying bumblebees anyone?), and we cant truly trust anything told to us by the government.
The point im making is that we cannot prove or disprove any notions of out of body experiences, ghosts, reincarnation etc, and the best/only solution is to (cheese alert!) follow your heart and gut instinct.
Ive had one or two strange experiences that i know definately happened but i cant explain how.
Doesnt mean they didnt happen, just means the experiences cant be explained yet.
Sorry, its early in the day and im babbling like a fool!
I'll post again when im awake!
Wul
I truely believe that the world is not as simply black and white, and easily compartmentalised as some on this post would seem to suggest. As Dudley says, weird shit happens and we are often at a loss to explain how. Just because there is no scientific explanation for something doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It could be that our perception of it is wrong and one day we will explain it all scientifically.
After all, hundreds of years ago there were lots of *wrong* scientific explanations for things that at the time they just did not understand properly, or did not have the technology to explore.
And yes, I have had experiance with ghosts (or whatever they may be) and some other weird shit.
I refuse to close my mind to this stuff and debunk it as crass. It may not be what people say it is but there has to be some explanation that eventually may be provable.
No Blackblood- that's not what I'm saying. I'm not even saying that we didn't go to the Moon. All I'm saying is that people in general- myself included- tend to believe whatever's fed to them if it seems to make sense. Why would the average person bother to question it?
I'm not suggesting for one minute that we *are* being lied to- just that most people wouldn't notice anyway. Your own comment illustrates exactly what I'm trying to say: you *do* have to put some measure of trust in what you're told by others. Most people do- me included.
In the case of the Moon landings (which is probably the best example I can think of), I'm happy to believe that they took place, but I wouldn't be too surprised to find that they'd been faked either.
Cheers.
"Imagine if you knew everything? It doesn't bear thinking about!"
Don't worry- I can't see that being a *big* problem for you.
Eyebrows in "sarcastic" shocker? Surely not?
Universe: Big massive contains everything.
Human: Small bag of water sensing the universe only five ways and stuck on a small bit of rock.
Conclusion: Keeping an open mind is the only way to learn anything. Human experience is limited enough as it is without applying mental blinkers to ourselves, stopping us from enjoying what there is to sense.
RC- What is your life like? Is it exciting or dull? Just wondering becasue in my experience, people with dull lives keep the blikers on as opposed to those with interesting lives who tend to have open minds, hence their lives being interesting IMHO.
I'm afraid so.
It must be a bit like deja vu for you, Dud! Of course, you actually managed to redeem yourself pretty quickly...
;)
Accch, since you agreed with me so wholeheartedly last week I've decided you're a big softy at your gorilla core.
Well, you know how it is. I enjoy hearing what other people think- and it's a bonus if you think the same way about any given subject.
That said, a difference in opinion should be interesting and not irritating- but I guess that's all down to the delivery and social skills of the person you're talking to.
Matt
RC- What is your life like? Is it exciting or dull? Just wondering becasue in my experience, people with dull lives keep the blikers on as opposed to those with interesting lives who tend to have open minds, hence their lives being interesting IMHO.
Tut tut tut - this is the problem with Misters C and Eyelashes; one can sit all wide-eyed in front of a keyboard gleaning info from the net and "knowing" new things all the time, but in MY experience those unwilling to denounce anything and who accept any ridiculous conspiracy theory as possible and/or probable are the ones with closed minds.
The selection process is how one uses one's brain constructively; concentrating on the feasable yet willing to learn more about new possibilities should the initial spark appear
logical.
Trying to stretch logic and common sense to such far away and abstract areas which may well be achieved and understood in the future may be lots of fun, but only certain science fiction writers [i.e. make believe] and scientists [i.e. researchers] are going to be taken seriously
with such matters.
To boast about being open minded and "not dull" is a piece of piss anyone can do - I suspect the everyday reality of certain lives may tell a different story, however.
I don't believe in every single thing that happens to drop out of Fortean Times thank you, I just recognize the fact that science hasn't explained everything there is to be explained yet. Surely you don't believe that there aren't anymore possibilities, that science has come to the end of the road and so must stop questing for the facts?
Interesting how you didn't answer my uestion either.
GENERAL APPEAL
Can we stop all this stuff about "dull lives" before it really gets out of hand?
Everyone'll be calling everyone else "sad" next.
Everyone else on this message-board for comic-reading adults, that is.
...Dudley
PS: My life is extremely dull, as I was telling my freefall sharpshooting instructor only the other day.
Dudley in appeasement shock........ Is this the same man who took on keane
Yer Slips
Just trying to stop it getting personal, Slips, you sheep-abusing fool.
Yes, only one boarder has the supreme power to call us all 'wankers', etc.... ;p
You know who i mean...
You didn't read my reply, Mr. C.
I repeat, I am willing to learn more about new possibilities should the initial spark appear logical.
If the idea seems preposterous, then I'd rather file it in the "crap" bin than in the "well, you never know" cabinet. This leaves more braintime for the good stuff, yes?
If the preposterous is proven to be real and true in my lifetime [scientific stuff, possible - ghosts, I don't think so] then I look forward to the big surprises.
And I agree with Dudley - the minute a fellow begins to disagree with the "anything goes" stance of your precious superuniverse of infinite delights, certain folk become all defensive and claiming they are "not dull"....
PS.
Didn't answer your question? Of "what my life is like, exciting or dull?". Errrrmmm.. let me think now... (does it HAVE to be one or the other...?)
:)))
Sheep?!?!?! Sheep?!?!?!?
Goats are better...
Yer Slips
Heh, good point there, who the hell is going to say "Hello, my name is Norbert and I'm boring."?
Apart from dudley that is :)
Fair enough, I'll agree with you that there is an awful lot of crap out there in the world and most of the "alternate science" stuff is absolute bollocks, plus I don't believe in every single thing I like folklore and local legends simply because I happen to find them interesting not becasue I want to have a chat with a leprechaun! Add to the mix freaks like Clone-aid or whatever they were called and yeah, the paranormal and related fields does look from one angle like complete and utter crap.
I know where you're coming from RC and I do sympathise with you on a lot of points, I just didn't like the way you made certain people out as "inferior" for having certain beliefs that's all.
I only said some people have too much time on their hands, and essentially there are no such things as ghosts or ghostliness.
Didn't make no "inferiority" jibes, just made a point of view clear [albeit, in the knowledge that said POV will contrast starkly with Mrs Boots, but I can't help it if folk take opposite viewpoints as personally insulting].
Isn't that right Mister Eyebrows?
Mister Eyebrows?
"essentially there are no such things as ghosts or ghostliness."
Hmmm, not too sure about that one.
Almost every culture we currently know about, ancient and modern day, has legends and beliefs about ghosts, spirits and the afterlife.
If the idea of ghosts and ghostliness is so widespread, it suggests that SOMETHING is definately going on.
Its just that the human race hasnt the foggiest what that may be, i know i certainly dont!
Personally i hope its a mystery that never gets solved. What would the be the point of a ghost story if we KNEW it was all codswallop?
And who could sleep easily at night if we KNEW it was true?
Sorry- but are you actually attempting to *goad* a reaction out of me or what?
If there's a problem here, it's got a lot less to do with an opposing viewpoint than it has with having somebody I don't know turn up out of the blue and rubbishing one half of a discussion that's already taking place.
Unless you think that, "no one is seeing any ghosts, apparitions or any other unfeasable shit", is a particularly good opening gambit, I'd rethink your posting style a bit.
It's not what you said, it's the way you said it- but then you probably already knew that. Right?
Right?
Did I take your POV as personally insulting? I certainly don't remember saying that. Could you point that out for me, please?
True Woolly that humans have been dedicated to spirits and apparitions etc. for bah-zillions of years, but I would think that in the days before we understood what the hell was going on a bit more they were the best answers man could come up with.
I would not knock tribal traditions based on the supernatural still functioning today [though I still think they are deluded], but the mass pre-occupation with invisible ridiculousness in today's society is mankind misusing the gift of choice.
Answer Goaded From Eyebrows: whether you know me or not is not relevant, and the discussion was WoD's in any case. Perhaps such an opening statement is too much to the point for some, but I can't think of any other response that is more truth. No-one is seeing ghosts.
Did I take your POV as personally insulting? I certainly don't remember saying that. Could you point that out for me, please?
Uh-oh...
Now let's try that one again , RC. I think you mean that in *your opinion*, no-one is seeing ghosts- which is fair enough.
But then again- what is a ghost? Is it the spirit of somebody once living, but now dead? Is it some natural electromagnetic recording of a specific event that (for some unknown reason) gets played back every now and then? Is it something as simple as a temporal lobe malfunction that's affecting the person seeing the 'ghost'? All of the above? I don't know. I don't even pretend to know.
I'm still waiting for you to point me in the direction of where I stated that I found your POV personally insulting, by the way. Should be a piece of piss, seeing as it would appear you deal only in known facts.
No, I say again: no-one is seeing ghosts.
If we all listened to you then a man could not make any statements without adding "in my opinion" as a prefix.
I am not alone in drawing on scientific and logical facts to form a cast iron view on a debatable subject; on a subject that has enthralled and mystified mankind for thousands of years, yet is proved only in the minds of those who have been deluded into believing in the supernatural.
Of course you don't know. You don't even pretend to know. Me? From my life experiences and discussions with "believers" I know the possibility of ghost-related apparitions and after-life-running-about exists only in certain minds.
It is my right to be sceptical - as it is your right to argue against scepticism.
But you've got nothing to show me, and I have every reason to dismiss such magic talk.
And I asked you if it was right that I'd made my point of view clear - the rest was in brackets.
I think theres some confusion going on here.
No-one is saying that ghosts exist, all were saying is that things have been seen and experienced that cannot be explained. They cannot be proved, and they cannot be disproved.
You say you know that people arent seeing ghosts, yet offer no proof, which is why its a good idea to add 'in my opinion' to the sentence.
As for the 'its personal/its not personal' debate...
C'mon guys, this is a thread about strange phenomena, is it realy worth carrying on with this?
Appreciate your input Woolly, but the stance of requiring proof to disprove something that cannot be proved is nonsensical and it is rife within believers of magic and supernatural.
Of course I am only asserting my opinions, but so harsh to some people is the possibility that supernatural and magic may not exist on any known level that noses are inevitably put out of joint.
Nnnnnooo...... You directed the remark to me in an effort to get a reaction out of me- and you know full well that you did. You know exactly what I'm talking about- as does anybody that can actually read:
"Didn't make no "inferiority" jibes, just made a point of view clear [albeit, in the knowledge that said POV will contrast starkly with Mrs Boots, but I can't help it if folk take opposite viewpoints as personally insulting].
Isn't that right Mister Eyebrows?"
To walk into a forum and deliberately attempt to rub people up the wrong way makes you a troll in my book. Not the "magic" variety either.
Nobody minds a difference of opinion, but you are clearly being a nob. Killfile*
Matt
*Something I've never used on this forum before today and something that I don't actually believe in doing. Even irritating people have something to offer somewhere down the line. Maybe you're just the exception that proves the rule?
You have the air of a man whose argument has just collapsed, sir.
You started with the thinly veilled sarcasm while I was busy debating; no-one asked you to start jumping to defenses with snotty remarks.
Check back over the text if you like.
Don't seem to like any sarcasm fired back at you eh? ;)
so RC, I think the point youre missing here is that you appear out of nowhere with *if you are a newbie...& not an oldie with a grudge* a bad attitude to everyone, if youre a newbie you don't know us from adam, so how the hell do you know wether we have too much time on hands or are dull?
fine, live in your tiny ickle world with fixed viewpoints, ghosties to me frankly are normal & dull, interesting things are 120mph mbike wheelies, being inside raging house fires, saving lives, being 3000ft above sea level with no-one for 20 miles, taking dirt track hair pins at 80mph in the snow AND frankly the lovely open minded & intelligent people which is the majority of this board. we are wide & diverse, we fight & disagree BUt we do not make sweeping ignorant bigotted assumptions about each other?
is that right boys n girls?
As much as it pains me to get involved in this whole Brouhaha I have to agree her Maj there.
Amen, people.
If anyone has the balls to further debate the existence of ghosts and the supernatural, I'm all ears -
and promise to sweeping ignorant bigotted assumptions to a bear minimum.
( o ) ( o )
honey i've plenty girlie-balls & have no fear of debate with anyone, however sadly & syllogis-wotsitically, i have to time to go round & rounnd & round with someone who basically has yet to earn my interest & respect. sorry if thats harsh, but ..ahem... justified IMHO.
if you read what i'm saying in the first place is, " i don't know what ghosties are or wether they exist, but i see them , and auras and teapot headed fucking pixies... i refuse to deny my experiences just to cow-tow to contemporary philosophical cynicism & so-called 'realism'. I am happy to put my re-incarnation memories down to false memory sydrome, but they never the less are wierd & interesting & no physcholgy has yet explained it.. to me, the intuited interpretation of subliminal body language signals is just as bloody amazing as being 'telepathic'... it doesnt matter what the explanation is, wierd shit happens....
ding dong... debate time over, i don't actually have too much time on my hands after all..
Syllogistically speaking, I think I've just come.
nah i think you just went.
You might want to scrape that went off, then.
miaow.
/killfile arsy.
I like this killfile shit, but I wish I knew what on earth it meant!
:)
Oh my God I've just found out!
I take it all back!
Please just don't kilf-