2000 AD Online Forum

so any big plans for 2004????

Yep! I'm off round the world in 6 weeks!
SIX WEEKS!!!!!!!
Gonna visit loads of friends in Melbourne, Sydney, Wellington, San Fransisco, Seattle, Cleveland(!) and Boston. and do loads of other stuff too! The really mad thing is that i have to do it in 3 months! Which is why i'm limiting my travels (this time)to Australia, New Zealand, and the USA. I'm at the 'scared shivless' phase at the mo, but i can't wait to get going!

Aunty travellin' Tank xx

oooo you lucky lucky girl ! thats fantastic, watch our for the rad swamps, psychos & malaria & have a FANTASTIC ROCKING TIME ! don't be scared be very very exited ! my wee sis, whos quite & waif like has been off round world by herself twice, only tiny rucksack too, way to go... ceptn the psycho who she broke her knuckles on... but thats another story

*jealous*

Don't forget to visit loadsa internet cafes and keep us updated you lucky person you.

    Steve

Will do, bud! I have to write a journal, which'll be posted on the band's website as far as i know. More details as i have them!

The worst thing about Australia is a policy in shops where the customer must prove upon request that one has not stolen anything.

This means presenting your personal bags for "inspection" by a spotty little prick before you can leave with your purchases.

This "presumed guilty" way of shopping would not be tolerated in England.

"The worst thing about Australia is a policy in shops where the customer must prove upon request that one has not stolen anything."

Yep - it was one of the first things I noticed when I was in Oz. I was never asked to present my bags, but it does make you a little uncomfortable wandering around ChickenFeed.

So make sure you carry some really nasty item with you at all times (be creative), nicely wrapped up so it doesn't stink out your bag, in such a way as to make sure it'll smear all over the first spotty geek to accuse you of shoplifting.

planning to go live in nz so ...as its a long way and i may not be back for a long time...hols in nice, rome, anywhere else i can think is worth the visit in europe

alps ?
anyone got any ideas for my ...'last chance to see europe' tour ?

Funnily enough there is a reason for the bag checks.... Australians like to steal!!

Who'd have though this would happen in a country started as a penal colony!!

Still beats have your bags checked for (IRA) bombs on the way into a shop ;)


Val.

One would still think the economy could cope with the "benefit of the doubt" approach instead of tarring everyone with the same brush!

"One would still think the economy could cope with the "benefit of the doubt" approach instead of tarring everyone with the same brush!"

I suppose you could use the same arguement for airport security. I like sevaral thousand other passengers daily have never carried semtex onboard a plane yet my luggage gets scanned along with all others; terrorist and non-combatant alike.

I know that terrorism is a lot more serious than theft however the same logic apllies.

In Australia shop theft is a very serious problem.

Here's and example:-

I manage a largish store in Sydney. Stock holding is around $3.5 million. Sales P/A $46 million. Profit P/A $6 million. Last finicial year we had a shrink of $470 000.

* All number OTOMH (of the top of my head)

This is a store with a 1.2% shrink. In Australia anything under 1% shrink is consider brilliant. I have worked in stores with 4% shrink and my girlfriend manages a store with 8% shrink.

Sure the economy can cope. but imagine how much better our society would be without the theft. Even with all our security measures (including the bag check policy) we "lose" 470k of stock. Thats money that comes of the bottom line. For that we could employ 10 managers, or 14 fulltime staff or 22 part time staff.

To be honest if you have nothing to hide there really shouldn't be a problem.

It's comparable to the arguement people had here went cameras where installed in the cbd after a spate of violent muggings. At the time Civil libertarians went nuts over privacy. Cameras went in the attacks went down! In my books a breach of privacy if a very small price to pay for not being stabbed.

val.    

The policy oversteps the mark of... call it whatever you want, I would say something like "personal freedom". "Human rights" may also be appropriate.

That is to say there are lots of problems, crimes and injustices committed every waking second all over the world - but if we start passing policies and laws over everyone in an attempt to stop the minority then we risk offending the majority, as I have been when shopping in Australia.

A checkout geek said those very words ["if you have nothing to hide there really shouldn't be a problem"], and I still find them rather sinister.

May I ask why you find them sinister? Just curious.

There is one reason that the bag check policy doesn't overstep the mark of personal freedom or human rights.

The store is private property. By law each customer must be informed of the policy before entering the store. This is usually by way of a sign at the entrance.

Now by entering the store you have agreed to certain conditions ie displaying your bag upon exiting the store. The law prevents any employee from actually touching your belongings however they my ask you to move items for further inspection.

Put simply if you don't like the bag check don't enter a store with that policy.

As for offending the majority. I beg to differ. Stores in Australia have done this for at least 20 years. It's a fact of life here...like taxes. I find the only people who are generally miffed about it are a very small minority (including the thieves).

I just have to ask are you upset, angered or offended by:-

1) the xray at airports that scan for bombs?
2) closed circuit tv in public places and banks that protect against violent assault?
3) beagles that are found in airports searching for banned foodstuffs etc
4) RBT. Not sure if you have this in the UK. Its Random Breath testing. whereby the police stop and check randomly drivers blood alcohol reading.
5)speed cameras that check the speed of every passing car.

When you get down to it how intrusive is the bag check really? The "checkout geek" (as you so condescendantly put it) didn't bring out the rubber glove did he?

I hope not as that really does overstep the mark!

Val.

Shopping is an essential part of human existence in civilised societies - one must purchase food to survive [unless we grow it], and stores know this.

Without custom, stores are forced to close. Without food, humans starve.

So we both need each other.

Entering a shop - where the owner will receive cash in exchange for goods, and at a profit to himself - should not mean also entering an area of automatic suspicion and accusation like it does in Australia.

Theft occurs, and theft can be damaging to businesses - but this measure is too extreme.

As you point out Australians are used to this way of life - I visited as an English tourist, and know that non-Australians are not used to these procedures but will comply with perhaps some bemused reluctance at first. And remember Australia does very well out of the foreign tourist industry.

There is a difference between this policy and the terrorist/risk of death security measures you are fond of comparing them to.

And a geek is a geek, condescending or not - "if you want to make a fuss sir, I'll just have to call someone".

Good job you have the best environments in the world to visit - makes up for leaving my bag at home each time I shopped, because I will not ever comply with this again.

Shops do need custom -True

People need to shop - maybe... If you wanted you could be truly self sufficient. You could also choose to shop in business where policies vary.

I fail to see how this measure is extreme. It is very unobtrusive. And from a business point of view it is very cost effective deterrant.

If anything this is a much more pc/friendly method than the old roaming security guards. Under the bag-check policy evryone gets checked instead of just the people a guard doesnt like such as blacks, youths with big coats and long hair (me about 8 years ago)

Yes australia does well from the tourist dollar however the domestic market is far greater. Also when in Rome...

I'll try and compare this policy to a non life threating policy....

1) When I was in Auckland a beagle sniffed me. I was searching for food stuff that could have been brought through customs illegaly. This is to protect the environment and industry.

As for the geek comment. It annoys me when people belittle kids who are just doing their job. Had it happen to often to my staff.

I am just wondering what you mean about not complying with the policy. Does it mean you won't shop in a store with the policy or that you will refuse to display your bag. If it's the later I'd advise you that the law is on the side of the retailers here and they are quite within their right to arrest you.

Finally to sum up:-

I understand that theft doesn't usually hurt people (although i know several people who have been held up) however it does cost jobs. A small inconvenience on everyones part protects jobs.

Righto it's 6am here I'm off to bed. Thanks for the debate it's been interesting

Val  

This is skirting around the point.

To surrender so much [i.e. the right NOT to be automatically accused of the crime of theft when one enters a shop to purchase items essential to one's existence] when going out for a loaf of bread creates a distrustful, cold atmosphere in the shop, the community and even the country from an outsider's point of view.

"Kids just doing their job" is fair enough, but employers should select those who at least have a spark of life in them instead of the grunting little dorks I've come across.

Minimum wage gets minimum effort!!

Don't you Aussie's put electronic tags on items with a sensor at the door? Monitor the inside of your shops with cctv?

say hello to Melbourne for me, Tank girrl, that`s my hometown.

cheers,

Floyd

tank grrl, you lucky little bitch, i am sooooo jealous.  I'd love to see new zealand, though the poor kiwi's must be getting sick of tourists search for that spot where aragorn fought some uruk-hai's...

Hi gary and RC I'm back again.

Yes we have the electronic tags here that operate with gates at the front of the store however there are a number of problems with them....

1) Not everything can be tagged due to the size of shape of the items. Eg. One of the most stolen items is cosmetics It is very hard hard to tag a lipstick with a tag the size of a 50p piece. These tags also have to remain flat of they cease operating

2) They are a tag! If you want to steal an item....just remove the tag. they don't really blend in to the packaging.

3) They are not very cost effective. If we where to tag every item in the store we would soon spend more than we lose.

I'm sorry that these policies create a distrustful, cold atmosphere in the shop, the community and even the country but people have right to protect their property.

It has been proven that these policies work.

It is terrible that it has come to this but don't blame the retailer. After all they wouldn't have these policies unless there was cause for them.


val.  

Don't you find it vaguely scary that theft is such a problem in your country?  After all, you're talking about a law that doesn't seem to be needed in, ooooh, Albania, Colombia, Nigeria...

Yes I does anger me that theft is so rank here.

However it's is one of the lower social ills we could experience. We don't have child labour, haven't had a recent case of ethnic cleansing ( This did happen up until the 1950's but that is for another time) and we don't shoot footballers for own goals.

I wonder how our theft levels compare to other countries. I think they are similar to the USA and they also use similar loss prevention policies.

Maybe theft is so high becaus eour laws are to lax! What the crime rate in Singapore and Saudi Arabia?

Val.

Re: shopping in Australia.

This is just another in the very, very, long, looooong list of reasons why I shall never, ever, ever, visit that godforsaken country. And I can't believe people are defending just an anti-libertarian and anti-basic-human-rights policy.

Brrrr. Makes me shiver just to think about it.

"if you've nothing to hide, what's the problem?"

If ever there was a key phrase that signalled the world going to hell in a handbasket, that's it.

Steev

Well they have tags in some books shops that are just slivers of metal... surly they can't be that expensive. Same with decent security guards, shop detectives etc

They have been talking about photographing everyone picking up Gillete razor blades (most shoplifted item in the uk) in one of the supermarkets but I think they have backed off from that

Hey! That's a bit rough calling Australia  a god-forsaken country on Australia Day!!

Could you tell me which countries you would visit that don't breach human rights?

The thing I eally love about libertarians is there ability to create a storm in a tea cup.

How can you honestly believe that it's a breach of basic human rights. You are totally over reacting!!

Check the Universal Declaration of Human Rights..... hmmm lots about the right to food, shelter and personal beliefs.
Nothing mentioned about how a person who chooses to enter a store (that is a private property), full knowing the stores has a bag check policy; is asked (not arbitrarily) to comply with said policy has had their Basic Human Rights breached.

Oh well I guess the UN f(^%ked up and forgot to add the shopping rights!

I am beginning to think we should let this discussion go as it seeming to be rapidly degenerating into sledging

Val  

Link: Declaration of Human Rights.

They have been talking about photographing everyone picking up Gillete razor blades (most shoplifted item in the uk) in one of the supermarkets but I think they have backed off from that

Well they are so fecking expensive.  Upwards of a fiver for 5.......

Having worked in a large shop some years ago its quite amazing at how many people try to shop lift and how many people get caught, Id imagine that something like half those are caught.  If your suspected in the UK by say a shop security guard can he detain you till the police arrive or can you just walk?  Im not sure, I certianly didnt see anyone walk when caught.

Its interesting to see the difference between cultures, but is suspect that western countries that are linked by language and common ancestory wont be that different......

Yer Slips

In this case Val the storm may well be in a teacup for you, but it is also apt to reach out into other areas of everyday living where one must pass "tests" before obtaining goods and services one can afford.

If the "inspection/checking" policy is allowed to progress unchallenged so it becomes traditional law and taken for granted, it is indeed the beginning of the end for free living in a supposedly free and liberal country.

Obviously you are used to the policy and as a shopkeeper defend its benefits to your business, but from a visitor's point of view I would expect a little more trust from my elected government - and yes, even if this means people in the retail trade suffer slight losses from relying on good old fashioned CCTV & security tags.

Now the law is enforced in this way, there would of course be uproar from retailers should it be withdrawn.

There are always new ways to increase turnover and reduce losses in business, but at what cost ?

but from a visitor's point of view I would expect a little more trust from my elected government

I find it an interesting concept that a law in a country may stop people visiting that country.  particularly one that is not so different from our own laws*.  

Places like, Singapore, Hong Kong, China, Korea, numerous South American, African and even middle Eastern countries seem to have a large number of visitors despite having very strict laws over a number of issues.  We'd visit these countries and respect them all the same.

Yer Slips

* - how do store detectives etc work in this country, if they spot you putting stuff in your pocket or bag that they suspect you may have stolen.  Do you just refuse and say Im not allowing you to search me and Im not waiting till the police arrive?  So what can they do?

 

Article 29.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

Question: is someone not proven to be a shoplifter disrespecting your rights and freedoms?

Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Shopkeepers being able to demand that people empty their bags = arbitrary interference with their privacy.


I could go on (e.g. right to presumption of innocence), but I have one main question.

Do Australian shops practicing this policy search every person's bag on the way out?  And if not, what's to prevent them targeting certain groups e.g. ethnic minorities for the hassle treatment?

I HAVE A VISA, I HAVE A VISA!!!
just thought i'd share that
And i no longer work in retail, or for any other bugger!
Happy Australia day val and all other aussie boarders
Gonna get my ticket on friday!!

Very-excited-non-shoplifting Tanky

Hope you have a great time tanky!

Jared in on topic message shocker!

Do Australian shops practicing this policy search every person's bag on the way out? And if not, what's to prevent them targeting certain groups e.g. ethnic minorities for the hassle treatment?

From my experience, it seems the aborigine race is most particularly singled out.

There seems to be a general opinion that black people are more likely to steal, and also that they are less willing to work.

This was conveyed to me from several sources, each one a white Australian.

Whether it is plain racism or the truth, I suppose the prosecution and unemployment figures are required.

Just when I'm out they pull me back in......

RC - CCTV and tags really don't work. I do understand your thin end of the wedge theory I just can't agree with it.
You see that my society could deteriote into a police state. I see that your ideal your deteriote into anarchy. You talk about human rights, but what of the property owners rights?
Tell me do you lock your car after you park. Surely you don't suspect that "everyone" will try to steal it? No. Surely that doesn't lead to a cold distrustful society? No. Just careful precautions.
Could you tell me what sort of security measures you find unoffensive? Are undercover security officers worse? I believe so as they bring with them there own prejudgices. The bag check policy does not descriminate.
Business could endure a slight loss. But this is not a slight loss. It is billions of dollars across the country. We nearly had a store close down in our region as the amount of theft had affected the cost of doing business so badly. That store employes 200 people. This isn't about shareholder value it's about peoples liveliehoods.

Gary - I know the book tags you speak of (i used to manage a Borders). From memory I think they where about 11 cents each. the tags we currently use are about 20 cents. clothing tags are about $3 and dvd/cd safers are about $5. 11 cents doesn't sound much but it is potentaily 1-2% of your profit. Around the same cost as a lost of theft! Also as i've said they have limitations to where you can put them.
However when I left the company a lot of publishers where starting to build the tag into the book. You actually had to destroy the book to get the tag out. At the moment a lot of name clothing labels  (levis nike etc) are also starting this. If this where to become the norm it would certainly limit the need for other security measures.

Slipo - In Australia any person can place any other person under arrest if they believe a crime has been committed, or is about to be committed. They are legally allowed to detain suspected crime whilst using "reasonable force".
If stopped here could you just walk away? Maybe. However if you did you could be charged with resisting arrest. If you interfered with someone trying to place you under arrest you could be charged with assault. However placing someone under flase arrest carrys very heavy fines $20k.
I would never ask a non security staff member to do this. And I myself would be hesitant to do this as no amount of store property is worth getting stabbed by some crazy junkie.

Dudley - The key word here is arbitrary. People are not checked randomly. Not all stores have a bag check policy. Usually only the very large  ones. And then everyone is checked when they leave the store including employees. There is no discrimination here. Last year we lost 470k of stock and there is only 2 ways to get it out through the employee entrance and through the front door.

Tanky - Welcome to penal colony OZ. come forth and be chipped! Seriously I hope you enjoy your stay, if you need help arranging things here gimme a yell.


val.

 
 

Of course the property owner has rights to protect his interests - but like I pointed out earlier the shopkeeper NEEDS the CUSTOMER to survive. They should therefore respect them more.

The customer may have a choice of shops if he does not like the "checking" policy, though for convenience and as you say acceptance of it will probably just tow the line and be "checked".

Security as I have always known it in such situations is a required skill when one must vigilantly protect one's property - therefore using CAREFUL, DISCREET OBSERVATION and ELECTRONIC DEVICES is the way to do it; not accusing everyone by default and offending the law-abiding non-thief.

I maintain this is a liberty taken by the shopkeeper, but I understand how you yourself support it in your location.

I lock my car at night in case someone sees it and tries to steal it - I don't "check" everyone who comes into it's vicinity.

Val I wasnt talking about Oz. I was in fact talking about the UK.  We have undercover security guards in our stores, they detain and stop theives, I presume because they see something suspicious.  

The people who complain here may be doing something suspicious and arent stealing in a shop.  In this country they could still be detained by the shop until the police come or empty their bag.  Personally I dont really see the difference, if someone from a shop security team asked me about something Id probably comply (and complain).  Is this any different than just stopping anyone

I asked a member of a security team how he chose people and he said they acted suspiciously, basically he went on gut instinct and was correct 9 times out of 10....  anyone could be that 1 in 10.

Yer Slips

>"Hey! That's a bit rough calling Australia a god->forsaken country on Australia Day!!

>Could you tell me which countries you would >visit that don't breach human rights?"

"Australia Day" or not, I stand by my opinion- which is based on my experience of Australian culture through movies and TV, books, people I have met, people who have been there and told me of it, the existence of f-f-f-fecking huge killer spiders that live in peoples houses, the horrible, horrible, horrible climate and the white people's historical treatment of the indigenous peoples.

And the fact that mostly every single annoying fuckwit I've ever met has expressed a wish "to go to Australia". Go on then! Don't let me stop you!

Note: Anyone here who wishes to go isn't included in that fuckwit list. It's not a syllogism: 'Everyone who wants to go to Aus is a fuckwit, etc'.

As for visiting countries that don't breach human rights... that wasn't my point. I merely said it's another in the long list of reasons I'd never go. For the record, I'm thinly travelled, having been to the UK, Sweden, France, Canada, Holland and Ireland. I have no great wish to travel- no matter how far away you go, you are always the same person when you get there and the things we try to escape are inescapable unless we go to the place that, no matter how many times you visit lastminute.com, you'll never find a ticket for: your own past.

And I absolutely HATE the sun.

Steev

im gonna do hte entire formula 1 circuit, i have come up with an ingenius idea whereby i can pick pick and choose what work i do and where,

i tend to end up doing nights though cos of the fees im asking but means i can afford to have 1 weekend in threee and im gonna save them all for then

its gonna be great

SpookytheCat:-

Having travelled around the place, you will never see one of the most beautiful, biologically diverse countries on the earth.

I've spoken to many people who dismiss travel with a sneer, but cannot think of any reason they should wish to do so other than jealousy of other people's motivation.

Australia has a great romance to the English in particular because it is so bloody far away for one, and it's not surprising many people talk of going there.

There are no huge killer spiders in houses.

There ARE hundreds of marvellous species to be observed in their natural habitat, many of which unique to the country.

Who is travelling to escape their own past? If you have something to run away from, I guess depending on who you are [and what you've done] it may follow you around... but most people go to experience the beauty and atmosphere of the country.

RC-

"Having travelled around the place, you will never see one of the most beautiful, biologically diverse countries on the earth."

Maybe so, but I still don't ever want to go there. Nothing about Australia makes me want to do anything other than curl up and die. Well, that or lock my door, burn my passport and gaffatape myself to the floor in good old blighty.

"I've spoken to many people who dismiss travel with a sneer, but cannot think of any reason they should wish to do so other than jealousy of other people's motivation."

What? So because you can't think of any other reason than "jealousy" for them not wanting to travel, they must be jealous? Pish. As I say, I have absolutely no wanderlust whatsoever. there are many enough varied and wonderful places around the UK that I haven't "experienced" to keep me occupied. And they are usually of a temperate climate. And no matter how far up a mountain in Wales I may hike, I'm still me when I get to the top, and bills still need to be paid.

"Australia has a great romance to the English in particular because it is so bloody far away for one, and it's not surprising many people talk of going there."

Actually, most of the people I was referring to are Irish. But the same rules apply I guess. But just because a lot of people want to go there, doesn't make it great, or right for me.  

"There are no huge killer spiders in houses."

Absolute bollocks. The place is crawling with them.

"There ARE hundreds of marvellous species to be observed in their natural habitat, many of which unique to the country."

By which you mean yet more huge killer spiders, loose in the wild. Joy.

"Who is travelling to escape their own past? If you have something to run away from, I guess depending on who you are [and what you've done] it may follow you around... but most people go to experience the beauty and atmosphere of the country."

Here we go again- justifying it because "most" people do it. Well, "most" people are idiots. "Most" people have eaten in McDonalds and gone to DisneyLand, or have bought a copy of Lord of the Rings. Or watch Eastenders. I don't enjoy travel. Wherever I go I am hugely dissappointed by what I find and I'd rather stay at home. The exceptions to this are Stockholm, Vancouver and certain bits of North London.

But I'm not going to argue about it. And after having watched some of 'I'm a Celebrity...' tonight, my desire to actually leave any planet that has Australia on it has increased tenfold.

Steev

Do you ever watch nature documentaries, particularly about exotic beasts?

Not find that shit fascinating?

Experiencing them up close is awesome.

Then there are the animals and insects.

Hmmmm. Sounds like you do indeed base your knowledge of Australia on Neighbours, Crocodile Dundee and English gameshows.

Bit of a toss reason to publicly denounce the country, though.

man I missed this one, what with me having a lazzee old day off for Australia day(I think I read somewhere Australia has more public holidays than any other country in the world).
Shop theft is epidemic in Australia, large retailer I used to work for has had such severe problems the last couple of years its been threatening to close. As a once spotty little geek I have been cursed at, spat on, swung at, called a racist white c*nt all because i was doing my job, not checking bags on the way out just stacking shelves and seeing if people need help, I'd like to say we realise 99% of people are honest law abiding citizens its just a shame that the majority must suffer due to this small percentage of scum causing havok.  Security tags are useless here alot of people aren't theiving out of need but out of contempt they'd rather wreck something trying to steal it than leave it.
Spooky from what i can tell from you're other posts you're a bit of a goth, no wonder u dont want to come down here all that sun u might end up with a healthy looking tan ;) spiders not that huge, at least not the deadly ones, hell I've even survived an encounter with our second most deadly(Red Back) and all that did was make me sick for a week(oh and turned half my brain to mush, not that anyone noticed).
oh well this probably makes no sense can't be arsed checking it, u know that classic Oz slaker attitude showing through...

CU Krestel(never go anywhere were a hot summer day is 25 degrees and rains 80% of the year)

Hi Spooky,

Well if ever there was a well thought out and beautifully composed arguement on why not to travel this was not it.

It seems you base your beliefs on media hype and other peoples travel stories. This is just moronic. Ever been to Scotland? I would never ever go there...I've seen Braveheart and Trainspotting and those sword weilding junkies scare the shit out of me.
As for your friends travel stories I'd advise taking things with a grain of salt. People tend to exagerate a little otherwise their stories might be well.... boring!

Still gcan't blame you for being scared of the big spiders. Most of the girls here are!
 
I'll grant you that the Aboriginals have in the past been treated disgracefully. However this was in the past. Do not blame a whole country for the sins of our forefathers.

One point to note:
Tasmania's aboriginal population was exterminated within a lifetime. It has been called'The world's most thorough and fastest executed genocide,'. It happened in the first third of the 1800s.  The indigenous tribe where massacred,the men murdered the women and children abducted and kept as toys and slaves. The government offered a bounty for captured Aboriginals, and in 1832 a gigantic battle was held right across the island employing several thousand men.

Who committed these atrocities? The British.  

The British also established the some of the worlds first concentration camps for thousands of women and children during the Boer War (1899-1902) in South Africa.

Let he who is free from sin cast the first stone!

Sorry Spooky but if you want to restrict your travel based on human rights don't step out your front door!

If you want to champion the rights of Aboriginals come to Australia and visit these people.
"For many Aboriginal people, tourism provides a connection to the land and the opportunity for their story, their knowledge and their culture to be shared and valued."
- Cathy Freeman (Olypic silver medalist Ambassador for Australian Aboriginal Tourism)

Don't want to travel because you won't find yourself? Of course you won't unless your name is Kerouac. What you might find is great people and new experiences.

I don't object to you not wanting to travel. Australia is probably better off for it. Our bigot quota is full.

Nope the thing I really object to is your public sledging of my home.

Valhalla.


Funny thing is as an Englishman living in Oz I've spent the last 20 years defending England from the same sort of mindless narrowminded stereotyping I've just received.

Go Val, all points I would of made were I able to articulate my thoughts into words aswell as everyone else seems to. When ever I try to make a point it just dont come out right.

CU Krestel

a late addition to this thread...
  to reply to the original post; my big things for this year are study and planning a return to Australia (fingers crossed).
 To reply to the `Australia sucks` part of the thread, I thought Spooky was being tongue-in-cheek at first. Now, I`m not sure. Australia is brilliant. Some parts are more brilliant than others, depending on what you like. For Goths, Melbourne is a good place for avoiding sunshine (or you could just do a lot of clubbing in sunny Sydney after a bit of late-night shopping in Valhalla`s shop). People are friendly, the food is fantastic, the wine is terrific. Service is much friendlier than what I`ve experienced in London (where it`s hostile) or Japan (where it`s robotic).
 The politicians are appalling especially the PM who is of historic interest, being the worst PM Australia has ever had (Kr3estel`s told me I don`t have to spare his feelings anymore).
  The giant hairy spider problem is under control. Pretty much. These things take time, of course. I myself know many people who have all four limbs intact.
       Val is right about the indigenous population -  they were slaughtered and mistreated by British settlers and continued to be appallingly treated by white Australians into the 1970s. We`ve done our best since then and things have improved a lot. That last sentence sounds very defensive/seventies South African, doesn`t it? But it`s true. Our current government does rather play on fears of foreigners and does not like the idea of apologising to or recompensing the indigenous people.
  As for shoplifting, I didn`t think we did any more of it than the British did. I`m sick of references to the convict past though.
    I`d rather have store detectives and cctv cameras, not on civil liberties grounds but on the grounds that bag searches make shopping less fun. I don`t know if bag searches are legal or not; certainly being on private premises does not neccessarily override one`s legal rights and shop owners have been known to try it on with refund laws (ie putting up a "no refund" sign even when the law provides for a refund). But I don`t really know and I certainly don`t run a store.
 have a good time tank grrl! Spooky stay where you are, the spiders are on their way.

cheers,

Floyd

Floyd: when and where are you planning a visit?
Stront: Entire F1 circuit?! Nice one!
Spooky: I'm going on holiday. Not some giant hollywood style oddysee!
Val: Can u recommend any good punx pubs/ kick ass clubs (any music - not fussy) in Sydney?
I like spiders. I own a big scary one and am looking forward to encountering her rellys!

I've lived in portsmouth for all my 27 years. England's boring now, so i'm off. just cos i can!

I've decided to do at least one touristy thing in each country. Here's what i've come up with so far:
Oz. Re-enacting scenes from Chopper with me best bud, fake tashes and water pistols. My mate lives right near the club in question
NZ. The world's biggest bungy jump or
Blasting across the 'plains of rohan' on a horsey
US. Hiking through the Grand canyon or
blasting across the desert on a kick ass bike, sporting a union jack helmet
Any more ideas? All considered!
Peace out

Tank grrl, I`ll probably go back to Melbourne next Christmas, although if my family are in Noosa I`ll go there. I`m thinking of going back for good next march/april or thereabouts.
  It`s the small spiders that kill you, but that`s only in the country. Just don`t put your hand under any old piles of wood in the summertime. If bitten by a redback, make sure it`s not female.
  Sydney is beautiful and I think there are heaps of clubs. Try camel-riding near Uluru, wine tasting in Adelaide. Go to Broken Hill and drive around pretending to be in Mad Max (or go to the Melbourne University underground carpark to pretend to be in the first movie)

My wife did that before she met me (well just after she first met me).

Spent all the money she'd earned in the 7 years longer she'd lived.  Then came back met me, settled down and had kids.  Since then we've not had the money to do that.

So i've never done anything like it or been anywhere abroad since.   sob.

Floyd..  when i was chatting to you the other day, i was about to ask if you were a victorian.  

I had this strong feeling you were.   lord knows why.

You "mystic meg" fishy.

Floyd said:

If bitten by a redback, make sure it`s not female

I'm not going to Australia any time soon, so this is just nosiness.  How do you tell if it's female without being very personal with a microscope?

...Dudley

Fe-male Redbacks have a big red stripe down their back and are at least double the size of the male, boy do they make you sick(very few people actually die)also very painfull, trust me I know this from experience.  Usually only fatal if your a small child or alergic to insect stings(bee's, wasps etc)

cu Krestel

Wow I?d give my left nut to be heading off on an adventure like yours Tanky.

Faced with another few months of work before the debts from my last trip to Japan are paid off, I?m facing no kinda holiday at all this year. But if I was; Oz and Nz would be on my list to visit mainly ?cos of friends out there ? those who have survived the spiders, snakes and prison sentences that is.

You take the good and the bad from any country you visit like taking the good and the bad of living in the UK.

I was mugged twice when I lived in London once when I seriously thought my life was on the line. Doesn?t mean I don?t visit London all the time and love it. Go looking for the good but be aware of the bad and 99% of the time you?ll have a great trip.

Please don?t keep us informed of your progress Tanky. The envy from my end will permanently stain my skin green and I don?t have the physic to be the hulk.

Wow, didn't realise that the bag-check rule was only in Oz...  It's never been a problem at all for me,  I just let the chunky guy at the door/spotty gimp at the counter check my bag.

The tags don't seem to work, I've seen people casually walk through the sensor and set it off before breaking out into a run through the crowded streets of melbourne.

I consider Australia a bloody safe place to be, for the record i've never been the victim of any crime (mugging/theft/break-in/violence).

I would rather tell the chunky guy or spotty gimp that what is in my bag is utterly none of his business. Has he seen me put anything in it without paying?

No Sale!

It's obviously a pretty established policy now so it may be too late, but if enough people make a stand and refuse to be "checked" perhaps an important principle of personal freedom and privacy can be regained there.

How do you tell if it's female without being very personal with a microscope?

I was joking there but see other post. Of course, you have to remember to catch the bastard before it scuttles off

lots of things on this thread

STRONT
if you are doing the F1 circuit. mail me. i will meet you in KL and buy you a beer if i am able to get the weekend off this year.
thats serious.

Travel.
done lots of it. 3.5 times around the world in fact,before settling in singapore.and had the chance to see and try many wonderful weird and sometimes not legal in the UK things,
but something fishy.though you anit travelled much you should know.
 
HONESTLY fistral beach newquay is about number 4 on the list of worlds finest beaches.

Dartmoor is outstanding and the wild horses there are very specail.

London has more history and tourist enjoyment educational areas then the entire USA put together,.

Africa would make you cry so will india.

the taj mahal is only wonderful if you understand what it signifies, the cisteen chapel is far more breath taking.

Rome is one of the worlds finest places to enjoy.
egypt the valley of the kings is specail, and one of life experiences i would encourage to see.

you dont have to go far to see a majority of the greatest things on earth.but you have to see many to appreacaite what you take for granted every day.

tank girl
my list of things i did. when travelling
CAUSE I COULD.

watch the sun rise in the valley of the kings.and ride camel around the pyramids.
drink rum and lay on the beach in the carribean
scuba dive on the barrier reef.
go to the top of empire state biulding.eat a hot dog and drink a coke as you sit on the corner of 42nd street.
go to the top of eiffel tower
see the mona lisa
see the crown jewels
through a coin in the moses fountain in rome.
 watch the  brides kiss the groom on the spanish steps in rome.
take a gondola ride in venice.
have high tea at the ritz
drink a singapore sling at the raffles hotel long bar. singapore.
walk over sidney harbour bridge.
go whale watching in hawaii
fly in a helicopter over a volcano
play football on the beach in rio
go to the top of the mountain and take a picture of the statue( the jesus one) with you with your hands out in the same style again in rio.

when i travelled i just did the cliched things for the sake of it. otherwise you will always wish you had. i know a few who went to many of the places i have. and regret not doing the things they thought poeple may laugh at them for doing.

in south east asia. eat everything once!
and try a soapy massage.
travel is the worlds greastest way of living life to the full.

good luck tanky...

Cheers buds!
Wow! Loads of quality suggestions from Devon's daddy! I think you're right, touristy things are touristy for a reason - cos u have to do them!! I have a friend who moved to Sydney a few months back and he's never walked across the top of the bridge, so that may well be on the cards.
I just bought my ticket this morning, and am bouncing off the walls! I have a two day stopover in Singapore, which is a huge added bonus and a place I know absolutely nothing about! I'm booked into a hotel right in the middle of the red light district! A Good thing or a bit dodgy? aaw, it'll be fun!

tank girl
honest offer.
i am more then happy to be a tour gide for the day.
your staying in GEYLANG????? really. hotel 81 it must be. but should you wish to have proper warts and all or just look see tour email me.
not a problem in any way. i do it several times a year for friends of friends and relatives of buddies.

that is a genuine and real offer.
DD

"I don't object to you not wanting to travel. Australia is probably better off for it. Our bigot quota is full."

Yep, I knew if I stuck around long enough, someone would play the 'bigot' card. It's so easy isn't it? Over the Internet.

Listen, Valhalla. Since I am not "intolerent of other people's views" on the subject of Australia, am personally quite happy for others to go there, happy that the place exists (as long as I'm not there), your so-well-reasoned argument falls somewhat flat.

I'll say again. I don't want to go there. I don't understand why others do and nothing that I've seen or heard about the country fills me with anything other than a sense of overwhelming depression, dread and absolute despair.

Floyd was right, when he said I was being tongue in cheek at first. My reasons for despising Austalia are based on silly things that have convinced me I should never travel there. The cumulative effect of these silly things is enough to put to me off. I may have been tongue in cheek about my reasons, but your message has really solidified a thought that has been growing in the back of my mind for a long time. Thank you for that, at least. Your funda-mentalist attitude to another's light-hearted criticism of your adopted country has done nothing to alter my opinion and everything to reinforce it. Your view of the world seems lifted from a bad script for Neighbours -especially regarding your calling me a "bigot" for the heinous crime of not wanting to travel halfway round the sodding world to get bitten by spiders, melt in the heat, and have a "shrimp barbie", when I loathe spiders, heat, shrimps, barbies and, for that matter, "tinnies".  

"What you might find is great people and new experiences."

Did you get that off a poster? It's so trite it hurts the eyes. We obviously have completely different views on everything, so I suggest you don't worry about my opinions in the future, and instead, talk to people who are happy to 'travel' in search of 'great people and new experiences'. Whatever that may mean.

This is very frustrating- to find this kind of non-thinking here. I'm quite sure if I were to tell Floyd Kermode that I have no intention of ever visiting Japan either (too far away, the culture doesn't appeal and I hate the food), he wouldn't immediately adopt a posturing hardman act (saying of my dislike of spiders that 'most girls here are' really was pathetic you know). Similarly, I wouldn't call you a wanker for expressing a desire never to come to Hastings for fear of junkies, old people and boredom. I would for your above message though.


Steev

Hey, now stop this!

I think that is quite enough.

rc, I find your anti-tongue-in-cheek-comment-mistaken-for-bigotry-thread prejudice offensive and will immediately take up arms against you.

Choose your weapon and begin pacing ...

Pft! If you're really hardcore, there's only *one* weapon of choice.

En Guarde!

Oho! The big guns are out now!

You take 'em both, I have a secret weapon.

Is it a pint-a-second water pistol full of barbeque lighter fuel? cos if not, i've got 2! Failing that, consider your virtual heads knocked cleanly together.
ANYWAY!
DD, An e-mail should have winged it's way to you by now (technical difficulties as usual!).
laterz

hi tank GRRL

i sent you an email through the site.
it basically says.
im not a schyco path but just in case i have given a few suggestions to you which will keep your inner most fears at bay.
you cannot be too careful when it comes to the internet.

i did not get the email you sent.but hopefully you got mine. so let me know if you didnt.

the offer is open. as is an alternative free heres what you should do whilst here instead by email.
more then happy to write/cut and paste such an email for you.