Messages

Don't worry Kev- no one is frothing here. If i can just repeat, so you don't misunderstand...
I certainly have no ill will toward Kev, having sat with him at the FQ table at Hi-Ex and chatted briefly, he's a nice bloke- nicer than me, I fluctuate between being a 'swell guy' and a 'fucking wanker', depending on whether I like you or not.

We're having a sensible adult debate and there is no mentalism to be found anywhere...

yet.

TB- It is reasonable, but that's not what was being said. What was said was to be 'constructive'- and it isn't constructive in any way. To be constructive I would need to add-
"There is too much flowery prose and too many captions, it reads like a short story broken into captions. The characters lack any real depth, both in writing and in design. The art, whilst being competent, is certainly not setting the prog alight with zarjaz"
Which a thin skinned creator might think of as 'rude' (though I don't), but it is constructive criticism.

This isn't a black and white issue- there are massive grey areas, and taking a black and white stance just doesn't cut the mustard. It will castrate the board.

No one is ripping Kev to pieces.
His post seemed to me to imply that we shouldn't be criticising 2000ad on here, as well as advocating promotion of the comic. Now that may well be a misreading on my part, but I certainly have no ill will toward Kev, having sat with him at the FQ table at Hi-Ex and chatted briefly, he's a nice bloke- nicer than me, I fluctuate between being a 'swell guy' and a 'fucking wanker', depending on whether I like you or not.

Whilst I agree that saying something is shit shouldn't be acceptable, I disagree with the idea that people have to be constructive with criticism. Your average fan might know nothing about how to make something better, or what is wrong with something- they might only know that they don't like it. For example, I know nothing about comic writing, so how can I tell a script droid how to improve a story?

Some people don't want to get into a big debate about why they dislike something, they may just want to register their disapproval. Not everyone can be articulate or write a well reasoned discourse on why they dislike something. Does that mean that they should be disqualified from expressing their opinion?

If I said "I don't like 'Age of the Wolf'- it's boring", that isn't constructive- nor is it rude or abusive. I can't back it up with reasoning or fact as it's a subjective judgement. Should I be allowed to say it?
Of course I should- I buy the comic, I'm entitled to say it. There's a world of difference between that and being the shouty bloke in a restaurant.

Like Steev, I'm not trying to be combative, but this particular discussion rears it's ugly head from time to time and I really hate the idea of being subject to censorship. If someone comes on and acts like a cock, ban them- but for fuck sake, lets not go down the road of the 'just-in-case' police. Now THAT is shit.

Absolutely. Which is all anyone is saying- to post 'X is shit' is unacceptable and insulting, just be constructive!

Ah now Rich, that isn't really what Kev said (though it might be what he meant):

Can you be a reasoned, level headed and articulate individual who simply advocates the good things about the galaxy's greatest comic, The Meg and it's associated merchandise?

even if that only means simply buying the comic each week and not denigrating it.

All sailing a little too close to the censorship camp for my liking. Of course, Kev is entitled to believe and say that if he wants, but there'll be no agreement on that position from me. Call me Marxist scum, but I'm on the side of the poor downtrodden consumer.

I work in education where the whole 'no negativity' thing is becoming a major part of practice, and look at the fucking state of the education system. If you can't tell someone that there is something wrong with what they are doing, then they will spend their time thinking that what they are doing is good when it isn't.
It's all in the interpretation of the wording, like. I'd never be in favour of slating creators willy nilly, after all- I am one, even if an amateur / not a very good one!

I want to live in Deeverland.  It seems like a sensible place. Does 2000AD have an embassy there?

it's a nice place to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.
Whilst there is no 2000ad embassy here, there are boxes and boxes of 2000ad's, Megazines and GNs.

That's what I mean John- if you're not liking something in the prog/ Meg, and you are proscribed from saying anything negative, then you are left with two choices...

1) put up with it in the vain hope that change will happen, which it won't as the only feedback will be 'everything is Arsom', even when it isn't. IMO- A stupid position to advocate.

2) stop buying until it does change. In the end that's the ultimate show of silent disapproval that any consumer has. I would hope that nobody would advocate this course- cos it would destroy everything (it nearly did before).

I personally find the 'no negativity' trope to be an extremist and knee-jerk, reactionary position which is just the flip-side of allowing people to be rude and abusive about creators and their work. They are opposite pole positions. The sensible approach is the middle and (therefore moderate) position, of allowing criticism without standing for nastiness. Surely that is a common sense approach.



To imply that anyone who raises any dissatisfaction with the product they buy isn't a proper fan is, frankly, bollocks. No offence intended Kev.

Nuke this thread- it's pro-corporate propaganda.

More Marxist propaganda.
(unfounded sweeping statement number 4,362)

In fact, as a fan of 2000ad your primary goal should be to do whatever you can to be supportive - even if that only means simply buying the comic each week and not denigrating it.

Sorry Kev, I can't agree with this. It's not your (or anyone's) place to tell anyone else what their goals as fans should be.

If a tradesman comes to your house to do some work and bodges it, do you say "That's great" or say nothing and continue to use that tradesman?
I doubt it- anyone with half a brain would tell the tradesman, manager or whoever was in charge that they were dissatisfied with the work.

Brainlessly accepting whatever you get, like Tharg's walking dead, is the road to ruin for the comic.

Sure, there is no need to be rude about creators (and that cannot and should not be tolerated), but everyone has the right to comment on a product they buy- positive or negative. Remember that creators wages are not magically created by Tharg's money fairies. WE pay the creators through buying the comic, we are entitled to comment even if we don't like something. This should be balanced by commenting on how good things are when we like them.

I cannot and will not subscribe to any kind of censorship, no matter how softly, softly it is worded. That doesn't mean I'm any less of a fan than you or CF or anyone else. Simply wearing 2k T-shirts and buying the prog and the meg is being supportive.

If you want 2000ad to remain the galaxies greatest, then blindly accepting anything that comes your way is not the way to go about it. That way lies Fleisher, who might still be there if it were not for the almost universal dislike of his 2k work being expressed. The downside is that some folk will overstep the mark. Weed them out and ban them- that's democracy and free speech in action and this is supposed to be a democracy we live in, not Mega-City One. This is not 1984 and Rebellion is not Big Brother (in the Orwell sense), and should never become so. When this board becomes 'positive comments only' then it will just be a weak, shallow, arse-licking corporate promotion tool, rather than a forum for fans to talk openly about the comic, I won't even bother to lurk any more.

If the powers that be are truly interested in what the fans think, then there should be a mechanism for feedback. In modern times, internet forums are the the tool of choice. That feedback is pointless if it is censored, or 'positive only'. How can anyone tell if something has been favourably or unfavourably received if all that is ever said is
"Duuuhr, Dat is da gratest fing evah."

That's great, Radiator- just been pissing about with this, what a difference it makes. I went with the adjustment layers in the end. I read up a little on it and jumped in. It's nowhere near as hard as it sounds. If I can do it, anybody can.

Cheers

Cheers radiator- I can see what you're saying very clearly just by looking at those comparisons.
To date I've been using 'Curves' and get much the same result as the Threshold thingy, except not as clean. It's not satisfactory at all and I have to spend hours cleaning stuff up. The adjustment layers looks the biz, but horrendously complex. I need to do some research. I like the drawing, inking bit but all this computer wizardy just makes my learning mentalism kick in. I can see it's worth learning, I just have grave doubts about my ability to learn it- I go all ADHD with it! I need a slave to do this stuff for me!

Dammit- only just saw this- I kind of knew most of it except for where to find the 'threshold' function in photoshop. I'm using Photoshop 7 (yes it's old, but I don't have squillions to spend on Adobe products. If it's not available on that version, I have access to CS 3 at work, less handy but it could be done.
Now Jim has gone, driven away by far less helpful, knowledgeable and useful idiots.
I his absence, anyone know anything about this Threshold thing of which he speaks?

I'd rather see Jane in a 2k t-shirt!

It's the Emperor! Must be!

I wish. A good friend of mine knows him though.

It IS you then!

I LOVE this world

So, which one of us boarders is he then?
Would the weal Wossy please stand up?

or not.