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Author Topic: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]  (Read 9556 times)

Dudley

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #330 on: 22 May, 2019, 06:25:06 am »
Arya: Young girl - brought up in privilege - suffered a terrible tragedy when young - exiled - obsessed with revenge - gains magical powers that make her virtually unkillable - shown to be ruthless in dealing with those who get in her way - often slightly isolated and comes across as cold to all but her closest inner circle - certain of her own righteousness.

Daenerys: Young girl - brought up in privilege - suffered a terrible tragedy when young - exiled - obsessed with revenge - gains magical powers that make her virtually unkillable - shown to be ruthless in dealing with those who get in her way - often slightly isolated and comes across as cold to all but her closest inner circle - certain of her own righteousness.

I'm not sure this narrative ends well for the peoples west of Westeros, that's all I'm saying.


IndigoPrime

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #331 on: 22 May, 2019, 07:21:36 am »
Well, if it’s true to the books, no-one’s ever found anything west of Westeros anyway, so she’ll either turn back, starve or drown.

Steven Denton

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #332 on: 22 May, 2019, 08:49:25 am »
I guess thats a way of reading it, but I'm not sure that isnt a bad look for a show that has already drawn criticism of it's handling of ethnicity.  Grey Worm has had an arc, but to have him stripped of any agency in how this plays out is to side line any growth and empowerment he has shown and leave it to the white people make the decisions for him... it doesnt play well for me, however you frame it.  Having Grey Worm as the final breaker of the wheel would be a fitting end and mean the big decisions werent all in the hands of the caucasian cast.  Also I assume they went this way partly to justify Jon Snow not ascending to the throne, but how much better would it have been if he had outright refused it and said he was going beyond the wall where he would never be found - So in the final episode he would have finally grasped three nettles - killing Dany, saving the Realm from a final bloody conflict (in conjunction with Grey Worm,nnow Commander of the Forces, so the only two men in a position to do this) AND removing himself from the wheel.


Grey Worm would be a psychological mess. GoT world has no psychotherapy, he has pretty much put any personal growth he has had in the hands of two women, which isn't a bad thing, but now they are both dead. The fact he doesn't take bloody revenge on john despite the fact he was perfectly happy to kill on Danys orders could be read as him NOT being the freed slave bogie man white supremacists like to push. Hi Agency has only ever been choosing who to follow and being aloud a girlfriend. The show is guilty of that, it's guilty of being bad with people of colour but that doesn't mean his decisions are out of character, or even that he's a bad character.  it does call into question weather he was the right choice of character for the only prominent male person of colour in the show.

sheridan

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #333 on: 22 May, 2019, 09:02:06 am »
Well, if it’s true to the books, no-one’s ever found anything west of Westeros anyway, so she’ll either turn back, starve or drown.


Or end up meeting Drogon (last seen flying East) on the other side of the world.

Keef Monkey

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #334 on: 22 May, 2019, 09:26:42 am »
Grey Worm was raised a slave, conditioned into obedience and order following as well as the suppression of pain and emotional attachment. He doesn't execute John or Tiryan because there is no one to order him to do so. He's very receptive to the idea of a new leader when the idea is proposed and he grudgingly follows orders once a leader has been chosen because that's what he has been programmed from birth to do. I think it's entirely consistent with his character.

Grey Worm keeping John prisoner instead of killing him (and being willing to negotiate) was the one thing that felt really odd to me, and I'm glad you posted your take on it because it really does make sense when looked at from that perspective.

I loved the episode, but then I haven't had the same complaints a lot of people have with the season as a whole. Things didn't wrap up the way I wanted or expected in a lot of ways, but they did all wrap up in a way that felt very right. The music throughout the season has been incredible, the sense of coming to the end of an epic journey worked on a level that's incredibly rare in TV and I honestly can't fault where the story went or how the pieces all landed in the end.

radiator

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #335 on: 22 May, 2019, 05:04:02 pm »
Quote
It doesn’t seem like a leap to me that she would look down on that city, on those people, knowing that everything she’d sacrificed meant nothing to them but that fear drove them in the end, and that she might think: I’ll show you fear.

We'll have to agree to disagree - personally I think they easily could have shown Dany going 'too far' without having her systematically wipe out the entire civilian population of the city. It seemed so over the top to me that her justification this episode (that it was about 'freeing people') was totally nonsensical, as was Jon's 'dilemna'. That they seriously try to suggest that Jon is in any way torn about his allegiance to her given what she just did is laughable, and that robs this episode of tension or surprise.

Quote
#notBeenPayingAttention

Worth pointing out that this line of dialogue (spoken by Ramsey Bolton, IIRC) only appears in the TV show, and to me is emblematic of the  fundamental difference in philosophy and worldview between the show and books. To me the books are all about people struggling to do the right thing in a harsh world, whereas the TV show has much more of a nihilistic 'dog eat dog' mentality, and has long conflated honour with stupidity, something the books resolutely do not do.

I'm still very much convinced that the ending to the books will be far more hopeful and far less bleak.

Keef Monkey

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #336 on: 22 May, 2019, 05:19:27 pm »
I'm still very much convinced that the ending to the books will be far more hopeful and far less bleak.

I really didn't see it as a bleak ending to be honest, bittersweet maybe given the toll that had to paid to get things to where they wound up. I thought it finished on a surprisingly optimistic note, with a new healthier status quo established and the characters all finding more positive roles and looking to a brighter future.

Leigh S

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #337 on: 22 May, 2019, 05:28:16 pm »
I am glad she did wipe out the city, as I like the idea she completes the Mad King's plans - it's how we get there.  There are two ways they could have alleviated the jarring nature for me.

Make it about more than her finding out about Jon Snow and his rejection of her - you could argue it was also about her advisors all trying to throw their lot in behind Snow, but she doesnt turn on Jon, so how much can we hold that as a deciding factor in her rampaging? She seems content that she is going to go on unchallenged after the burning without the need to take Jon out of the picture. 

More so than that, it was the fact that Dany burns the City AFTER it has surrendered - have the battle turn against her - give Cersei some cunning plan ("Aieeee!  Elephants!" :) ) so that the only weapon to turn the day was Drogon demoralising the forces through sheer terror.

It's telling that this is not spoken of when Jon confronts her - "Cersei was using the children" says Dany - how the fuck was she using the children? She had won.  Now, if we are to say it was because she knew Jon Snow would have more legitimacy/ support, then she would have to turn on Jon before anyone.

I can see the psychological approach to Grey Worm, Steve, I just dont like what it does for the character or dramatically for the fizzle out "non-threat" of Jon and Tyrion being prisoners. If they ahd let the Unsullied sail out with Jon Snow's head on a spike, Ned style, that might have worked....

They should have called this episode "How Tyrion Fixed Things (despite being a prisoner the whole time)"


Quote
It doesn’t seem like a leap to me that she would look down on that city, on those people, knowing that everything she’d sacrificed meant nothing to them but that fear drove them in the end, and that she might think: I’ll show you fear.

We'll have to agree to disagree - personally I think they easily could have shown Dany going 'too far' without having her systematically wipe out the entire civilian population of the city. It seemed so over the top to me that her justification this episode (that it was about 'freeing people') was totally nonsensical, as was Jon's 'dilemna'. That they seriously try to suggest that Jon is in any way torn about his allegiance to her given what she just did is laughable, and that robs this episode of tension or surprise.

Quote
#notBeenPayingAttention

Worth pointing out that this line of dialogue (spoken by Ramsey Bolton, IIRC) only appears in the TV show, and to me is emblematic of the  fundamental difference in philosophy and worldview between the show and books. To me the books are all about people struggling to do the right thing in a harsh world, whereas the TV show has much more of a nihilistic 'dog eat dog' mentality, and has long conflated honour with stupidity, something the books resolutely do not do.

I'm still very much convinced that the ending to the books will be far more hopeful and far less bleak.
« Last Edit: 22 May, 2019, 05:30:56 pm by Leigh S »

Funt Solo

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #338 on: 22 May, 2019, 05:41:49 pm »
her justification this episode (that it was about 'freeing people') was totally nonsensical

I can get behind the idea that her descent into madness was too abrupt: clearly, that's what a lot of viewers felt.  I think that her idea that murdering civilians is "freeing people" is a great way of demonstrating that she is mad (however she got there).  It's that very twisted reasoning that allows Jon the motivation to execute her.

fate amenable to change

Tjm86

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #339 on: 22 May, 2019, 05:46:46 pm »
Quote
It doesn’t seem like a leap to me that she would look down on that city, on those people, knowing that everything she’d sacrificed meant nothing to them but that fear drove them in the end, and that she might think: I’ll show you fear.

We'll have to agree to disagree - personally I think they easily could have shown Dany going 'too far' without having her systematically wipe out the entire civilian population of the city. It seemed so over the top to me that her justification this episode (that it was about 'freeing people') was totally nonsensical, as was Jon's 'dilemma'.

TBH my issue with this when I finally saw it was not so much about her going completely postal as that it just happened.  There seemed to be no justification for it.  One minute she was looking on, listening to the bells, the next she was burning down the house.  They'd given up, thrown in with her and declared Cersei the loser.  She could have just taken out the Red Keep and been done with Cersei.

radiator

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #340 on: 22 May, 2019, 05:57:23 pm »
Quote
I think that her idea that murdering civilians is "freeing people" is a great way of demonstrating that she is mad

Is she, though? It isn't fully clear that thats what they were going for. I've seen interviews where people involved with the show push back on the 'mad' thing and make out that her actions were calculated and strategic. Neither interpretation makes complete sense to me.

I'm still very much convinced that the ending to the books will be far more hopeful and far less bleak.

I really didn't see it as a bleak ending to be honest, bittersweet maybe given the toll that had to paid to get things to where they wound up. I thought it finished on a surprisingly optimistic note, with a new healthier status quo established and the characters all finding more positive roles and looking to a brighter future.

Each to their own. Personally I found it quite jarring that we go from surveying the wreckage of Hiroshima to lightheartedly joking about brothels so quickly. I think the ending overall was very cynical and bleak, given the context,  though as I mentioned before I did like where Jon's story ended up.

Quote
More so than that, it was the fact that Dany burns the City AFTER it has surrendered

That's kind of what I'm getting at - I think the broad strokes of the ending will be similar to what happens in the books, but I think the chronological order of them, the context, the intent and motivation behind them will be very different indeed.

Anyway, I rewatched the episode last night (my girlfriend was away over the weekend so missed it) and I liked it a bit more than I did initially. While I have a lot of gripes with the writing, I can't praise the art direction,  effects, costuming and the music enough. It really is a momentous achievement in that regard.

JOE SOAP

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #341 on: 22 May, 2019, 07:51:31 pm »
Each to their own. Personally I found it quite jarring that we go from surveying the wreckage of Hiroshima to lightheartedly joking about brothels so quickly. I think the ending overall was very cynical and bleak, given the context,  though as I mentioned before I did like where Jon's story ended up.


It was the most human response: We still have to get on with the mundanity of running this place, feeding and wiping people's arses, but let's still have a sense of humour amongst ourselves. If anything it underlined what the show has been saying all along, that monarchies/statecraft is for mugs and you'll probably end up getting the shit-end of the stick, and then the shaft.

I find it hard not to be amused at the Iron Throne being replaced by a wooden wheel-chair: Bran the cripple leaves the heavy lifting of running Knots Landing to Tyrion the dwarf –a role he'd probably never be elected for– which I suppose is positive progression of some sort.

Jon and Arya seemed to get the best deal out of everyone. They at least looked happy.


« Last Edit: 22 May, 2019, 07:54:27 pm by JOE SOAP »

JayzusB.Christ

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #342 on: 22 May, 2019, 10:04:56 pm »
Just watched the last episode (and only flicked through this thread).  The Jon / Daenerys thing ended just like my brother predicted a few weeks ago (Daenerys goes mental with the dragon and Jon kills her) but I didn't see the King Bran thing coming.  Makes a whole lot of sense now I think of it; he's the wisest man in the world.  Bit of a shame to see democracy being ridiculed by all, but that would have been all too pat and contrived.

Also, finishing with Arya setting out for America or whatever was a beautiful ending.  Ever since I read that medieval people knew the world was round and speculated about what was to the west, I've been fascinated. 

The whole thing reminded me of the last ever Nikolai Dante.  A new era has begun and our heroes will continue to have huge adventures, but we won't get to see them.  Nor should we.

Splundig vur thrigg, Game of Thrones. I'll miss you.
“Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest”

Frank

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #343 on: 22 May, 2019, 10:29:00 pm »
Bit of a shame to see democracy being ridiculed by all

Western democracies are currently taking the piss out of the idea that everyone should decide what's best for everyone. I liked it fine. Wrapped up like every US show ever, vindicating David Chase's decision to just do a regular episode that smash-cut to black.

The smartest long-term fans seem to agree that none of the decisions made were wrong per se, but that the shorter season length meant everything felt rushed. Being used to UK TV drama, where 7 episodes would represent an extra 60 minutes for the writer to indulge themselves, I thought it was fine.

Maybe regular viewers got over this years ago, but The Dink's dinner theatre Shakespeare delivery is worse than the 'British' accents on Frasier. *


* Dinklage is great, though

Dudley

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Re: Game of Thrones: the last series [SPOILERS]
« Reply #344 on: 23 May, 2019, 07:05:10 am »
Why is there still a Night's Watch?

Same reason there was a Night's Watch prior to the events of GoT - you need guards against wildling raids and it's somewhere to stick unwanted scions of Great Houses.