It all started with Trench coats.

[Professor Bear]

The editors of Vertigo had effectively annexed an entire section of the existing DC universe for themselves in an impressive power grab and display of big dick swinging. Then Vertigo books stopped selling so well, Vertigo editorial lost their influence, and had any of their toys that might still be worth anything taken away and incorporated into the regular DCU.

I would argue about there being any willy-swinging as Karen Berger is a lady-type and creators have nothing but good things to say about her.  It's more likely Vertigo was simply left alone while it was profitable, after having evolved naturally thanks to a confluence of various elements like the emergent graphic novel format and a bunch of darker-hued fantasy comics starting from scratch around that time.  Like Marvel Edge, Epic, Tangent, Wierdoverse, Marvel UK, Helix, Impact, and countless other sub-imprint lines of the 1980s and 1990s, the books were simply branded together and strong sales on Sandman, Preacher, etc, meant that the imprint continued long beyond what might reasonably have been expected of it.
The dick-swinging arguably happened when any property with multimedia presence - tv companies were sniffing around Hellblazer and Swamp Thing at the time - was forcefully appropriated into the failing superhero line in a last-ditch attempt to regain ground lost to Marvel.

[Frank]

I would argue about there being any willy-swinging as Karen Berger is a lady-type and creators have nothing but good things to say about her.  It's more likely Vertigo was simply left alone while it was profitable, after having evolved naturally thanks to a confluence of various elements like the emergent graphic novel format and a bunch of darker-hued fantasy comics starting from scratch around that time.  Like Marvel Edge, Epic, Tangent, Wierdoverse, Marvel UK, Helix, Impact, and countless other sub-imprint lines of the 1980s and 1990s, the books were simply branded together and strong sales on Sandman, Preacher, etc, meant that the imprint continued long beyond what might reasonably have been expected of it

I wouldn't ague with any of that, except to say there's a certain amount of territory marking apparent in the creation of Vertigo out of what were previously known as the Berger books. Whatever the intention of such a move, in the context of any large organisation it's perceived as empire building by other suits, and even fosters simmering resentment among hacks who've spent their lives working on corporate IPs, only to see Garth Ennis coming straight off the boat and being given ownership of his own book and characters.

There's nothing wrong with any of that, but it does mean there are plenty of grey men with their knives already out for you and your baby when sales hit the skids and it turns out literate comics for grown ups aren't the future after all.

[Hawkmumbler]

Fuckin' New 51...

[Judge Brian]

Hellblazer took place in the DC universe before the reboot in 2011. It was the last monthly title published by DC that still took place in the pre 2011 universe. Zatana from the Justice League visited John somewhere around Hellblazer #50. She smoked a joint with him.

The Constantine from Hellblazer also showed up in issues of Crisis on Infinite Earths, New Teen Titans, Green Lantern, Shade the Changing Man, The Books of Magic, Swamp Thing, & Green Arrow.

If the book doesn't say "The New 52!" on it it's the John from Hellblazer.

[Frank]

I have an odd relationship with DC since Swamp Thing was the first DC book I read, and nearly all of my knowledge of those superheroes comes from appearances in Swampy and Sandman, so for me the Vertigo adoptees are very much part of the DCU - really the only part I know

Aye - I know more about the esoteric DC characters with whom Neil Gaiman populated the Dreaming than I know about any of the capes and tights characters (apart from the two that have films and Saturday morning cartoons made about them). The only Big Two stuff I bought was by writers whose work I enjoyed or books Speakeasy told me were cool, like Eightball.

Moore had been and gone from Swamp Thing by the time I found myself taking my first wary steps over the threshold of a Forbidden Planet, and the first reprint book I bought didn't seem like great value ... I feel nervous even typing these words, but I've never actually read more than a few issues of Moore's run on Swamp Thing, and what little I did read didn't really seem like my kind of thing. I'll turn my nerd badge in at the door on my way out.

[Frank]

Hellblazer took place in the DC universe before the reboot in 2011. It was the last monthly title published by DC that still took place in the pre 2011 universe. Zatana from the Justice League visited John somewhere around Hellblazer #50. She smoked a joint with him

Didn't they smoke Swamp Thing? That's post-Vertigo and post-Books of Magic, though, when Gaiman had already partitioned off those characters into a wee thematic pocket universe. You can tell it's post-Books of Magic, because Ennis clearly knows even less about the DCU than me, and is blatantly copying the homework of the class swot.

[TordelBack]

I've never actually read more than a few issues of Moore's run on Swamp Thing, and what little I did read didn't really seem like my kind of thing.

Jeebus man, hard to believe I used to think you were cool.   

As I know I've reported here ad nauseam, as a Marvel spode I ignored Swamp Thing for ages, even resisting the beseechment of towering skinhead Des who worked in the (original) Alchemist's Head (at that point the coolest human being I had ever met - and now Sauchie's gone, he's back in the Top Ten).  It wasn't until a wet camping holiday in Colwyn Bay during the Mexico World Cup '86* and a camp shop with a very limited selection of reading material, but for some reason a slightly dog-eared copy of Swamp Thing 48, which was to be my first DC book since a terrible Superman annual in the late '70s.   It was one of the most horrible and beautiful things I'd ever seen, and still is.  I began an obsessive search for back issues immediately.

I totally understand people not getting into Moore's ST these days, but in those last few pre-Watchmen months the Moore run was simply spectacular comics, unlike anything else.


*It was the same day Argentina knocked England out 2-1, fact fans.

[Aztecface]

Thank You all. I thought people in this forum would be informed. Little did I know that you are Über-geeks. Thank goodness for that!! This is exactly what I needed to know. Never will I be ashamed for knowing so little again.

[Aztecface]

Hellblazer took place in the DC universe before the reboot in 2011. It was the last monthly title published by DC that still took place in the pre 2011 universe. Zatana from the Justice League visited John somewhere around Hellblazer #50. She smoked a joint with him.

The Constantine from Hellblazer also showed up in issues of Crisis on Infinite Earths, New Teen Titans, Green Lantern, Shade the Changing Man, The Books of Magic, Swamp Thing, & Green Arrow.

If the book doesn't say "The New 52!" on it it's the John from Hellblazer.

Thank You. Exactly the info I was looking for.