'The Chase' tv quiz show has Dredd question

[Proudhuff]

He's not a hero, he's a very naughty boy!

[JOE SOAP]

You know how the schema of those maddening Hero With a Thousand Faces-type books reduce every character in every story to such vaguely defined roles (Enabler or Knowledge Bringer) that each of those terms could be applied to characters as different as Darth Vader and Doc Brown, or almost any other character in whichever story you choose? That's the level of obfuscation necessary to describe Dredd as a superhero.

I believe this vague 'what makes a hero' notion is one of the key influences along the way that shaped the '95 film: Charles Lippincott (producer/rights-holder), having been part of the Lucas fold, was a huge devotee of all that Joseph Campbellesque/folktale guff (as was Hollywood in general after Star Wars) and he struggled to fit Dredd into that Jungian mix. His goal was to pour Judge Dredd into the myth/merchandise mould he'd succesfully helped create with Lucas. Then came Danny Cannon and William Wisher who wanted to make a 'serious' film.

[Frank]

Obviously I don't really believe that Dredd is a superhero, but I am enjoying the discussion. 

It seems to me that despite Sauchie's epic refutation it is very easy to draw the conclusion that Dredd is one-of-those, based on viewing the character in isolation. I honestly think 3 of Sauchie's 4 criteria can be applied to Dredd, he has an origin involving cloning (of a goodie by a baddie) and intense training from birth in his father's vision, he has a garish costume complete with mask, he has a Clarkian gun and a talking bike, and he brings justice to hoodlums, mutants, aliens, supervillains and his own clone family.   Also, if as people are fond of quipping Batman's superpower is money, then Dredd's is willpower. His general air of brutality is matched by any number of contemporary superheroes, including Wolverine.  I find the character in isolation to be indistinguishable from a lower powered Green Lantern or a more savage Captain America.

... A reductionist approach to classifying characters risks ignoring the very notion of character itself.

Ooh-ooh-ooh; double agreed. I too am like a pig in shit with this discussion, so I'll gently return the ball back over the net by applying some backhand spin to just one of your points - that of Dredd having an origin (or inciting incident).

As the second, qualifying term suggests, most superhero origins appear to revolve around a single transformative event which bestows their powers and/or provides the spark which ignites and fuels their behaviour from this day forward ... and Dredd never really experiences that kind of incident. The circumstances of his birth don't mark him out from the other Fargo clones, let alone all the other clones who do the same job as he does, and Dredd's easy acceptance of Fargo's indiscretions doesn't suggest he's driven by the urge to atone for the original sins of the Father. Dredd might be compelled to repeat those same mistakes, but that puts the strip in an entirely different genre.

Likewise, the soapy melodrama of Pat Mills's Return of Rico (and Wagner's retcon by way of a prequel, Blood Cadets) is a significant event, but it would be difficult to argue that Dredd actions and motivations are changed any more by that incident than they are by his encounter with General Blood 'n' Guts's forces or disobeying the law to depose the tyrant who had killed and taken the place of his defacto Father. Also, it's got to be said that The Return of Rico has become a more significant event in the last decade or so, since the whole question of family and the character's (and the strip's) past have become increasingly important to the stories Wagner wants to tell now.

Rico, Vienna and Fargo only provided the impetus for the single issue stories in which they appeared, and were barely mentioned for two thirds of the strip's 36 year run; if those kind of incidents and characters are what make the strip a superhero story, then for a good quarter of a century it wasn't one. The story with the most overtly superhero-sounding premise in the strip's history, Origins, actually tells the reader less about why Dredd became who he is and why he did what he did than it does about what John Wagner's going to do with the strip next.

I should also make it clear that, despite the emollient words The Adventurer applied to my imagined wounded fan pride, I'm not figuring the term superhero as a pejorative when I argue Dredd is not among their number. The question of whether Dredd is a superhero is only as important as the issue of whether we group the whale with the mammals or the fish; unimportant when talking in very general terms or to a wee boy, but absolutely essential when discussing or thinking about the subject in any depth.

[JOE SOAP]

Dredd's not a superhero, he's a civil-servant, born and bred, who's reluctant to take that promotion after seeing how his prime number handled the burden, but in the meantime, everyone will do what they're told regardless.

The only event that comes close to Dredd having a transformative moment (which for Dredd is really a moment of realisation/anagnorisis) was when he took the Long Walk for 5 minutes, realised it wasn't for him and drove, not walked, back to the city as quickly as possible to pull his leathers back on.

Dredd's revelations/epiphanies are all about recognising he can't change who he all ready is even though his life gets more complicated and it's a given he may not always like/agree with the job he has to do and was made for - which of course are the very reasons Dolman rejected it - so sometimes he might appear to be an implacable hero or anti-hero but never a superhero no more than Dirty Harry, Indiana Jones nor any character played by the NRA's finest, Charlton Heston.

[Frank]

You know how the schema of those maddening Hero With a Thousand Faces-type books reduce every character in every story to such vaguely defined roles (Enabler or Knowledge Bringer) that each of those terms could be applied to characters as different as Darth Vader and Doc Brown, or almost any other character in whichever story you choose? That's the level of obfuscation necessary to describe Dredd as a superhero.

I believe this vague 'what makes a hero' notion is one of the key influences along the way that shaped the '95 film: Charles Lippincott (producer/rights-holder), having been part of the Lucas fold, was a huge devotee of all that Joseph Campbellesque/folktale guff (as was Hollywood in general after Star Wars) and he struggled to fit Dredd into that Jungian mix. His goal was to pour Judge Dredd into the myth/merchandise mould he'd succesfully helped create with Lucas. Then came Danny Cannon and William Wisher who wanted to make a 'serious' film.

You take from those mythological sources that which fits your own preconceptions and inclinations; they're really only of use in providing some class to the justifications offered by people whose decisions are shaped more by market forces than the desire to honour The Muse.

Theseus and Odysseus both go on the heroes' journeys and overcome the obstacles prescribed by those kind of books, but they're also selfish, thoughtless pricks who do quite unforgivable things which have dire consequences for the characters around them. They're exactly the same combination of hero/cunt we find in the Dredd of the comic. The fiction of antiquity provides no justification for the dopey looks exchanged between Stallone and Lane as Dredd is taken away to Titan Aspen.

[Frank]

The only event that comes close to Dredd having a transformative moment (which for Dredd is really a moment of realisation/anagnorisis) was when he took the Long Walk for 5 minutes, realised it wasn't for him and drove, not walked, back to the city as quickly as possible to pull his leathers back on.

Oh, I like that.

[JOE SOAP]

they're really only of use in providing some class to the justifications offered by people whose decisions are shaped more by market forces than the desire to honour The Muse.

Fianlly, the reason why both Dredd and The Master failed at the box-office.

The fiction of antiquity provides no justification for the dopey looks exchanged between Stallone and Lane as Dredd is taken away to Titan Aspen.

Joseph just wanted to return to Babs- stuck at home and ogled by potential suitors.

[TordelBack]

The fiction of antiquity provides no justification for the dopey looks exchanged between Stallone and Lane as Dredd is taken away to Titan Aspen.

Joseph just wanted to return to Babs- stuck at home and ogled by potential suitors.

Presumably Telemachus is the Laaaaaaaaw itself in this analogy, but I'm pleased to note there's still no justification for Rob Schneider.