Please get rid of Dan Abnett.

[Thread Zero]

God, his dialogue (if you can even call it that) in Atavar is..well I am lost for words.

It consists of shit, shit and more shit.

The line "I'm Atavar ShitBrains" was beyond belief.

Does Abnett think we are all 10 years old?

He has brought a new low to 2k comic writing.

Please can we get someone who can actually write with a modicum of intelligence. Anyone must be better than him.

scojo

[Thread Zero]

Shame on Andy Diggle for commissioning it.

How people rate him as a good editor, when he allowed the word shit to be used at the expense of good writing, I will never know.

scojo

[The Amstor Computer]

>>>How people rate him as a good editor, when he allowed the word shit to be used at the expense of good writing, I will never know<<<

Well, fair play to the man - he turned your scripts down, didn't he? :-)

Expletives in 2000AD are pretty rare, and given that the comic isn't really for a young audience anymore I see no harm in letting them in now & then.

Much as you might protest Scojo, I'm sure most posters here would agree that Andy did a fine job at the helm of 2000AD.

[paulvonscott]

I think it goes beyond blaming writers

I don't know, Atavar is a great idea and the background is interesting it's just missing something.  I'm not sure what it is but it's a pretty big hole and it leaves it feeling pretty light.  I appreciate it's easier to poke holes in things rather than creating a strip, and I agree, that isn't my job, that's the Editor's.

I'm starting to wonder if you can always place the blame at the writer's feet.  I mean, surely the Editor has a job to do apart from commissioning stories.  I imagine a synopsis for this series would be a great read.  But surely it can't be impossible to look at a script and see it needs something more.  The writer is doing a job at the end of the day and if he makes the editor happy he has a sale.  Perhaps if he had added more he wouldn't have had that sale, perhaps the editor has told him what he wants, so that's what he does.

There are three main writers on 2000AD, Abnett, Morrison and Rennie (and the backup of Moore on Fillers and Wagner on Dredd).  All of them have done popular stuff, here or at Warhammer (allegedly) so you can't say that they can't write.  Compared to the horrors we had in the nineties I've been told we were lucky to get them and they helped pull 2000AD out of the crevasse it had fallen down.

I started reading 2000AD again during Diggle's reign, so I have that to thank him for and of course bringing back the old characters I liked and still like.  It was a step away from the nineties and onto a better road for 2000AD anyway.  Of course these things take a lot of time and I certainly have no ideas of the pressures of being an editor and I bet editors have to make decisions they don't really want to.

All my comments above are aimed at the new strips, many of them probably commisoned by him.  None of which are awful and none of them really good.  Storming Heaven, Shakara, even Carver Hale had potential to be something more than they were.

As for using the word 'shit' in Avatar it seemed to me lazily used, neither dramatic nor funny.  As it serves no point I personally would have chucked it out.  There may have been swear words in watchmen and dark knight returns, I honestly have no idea and I've read them both several times.  So if they were used they were used appropriately and in context or I would have remembered it.  If they didn't have swearing in, where they any the less for it?

Oh well, not a rant, just a few observations.  I don't find any joy in looking for people to blame, but as 2000AD is practically the only British comic going, you think we could manage something better.

[Thread Zero]

I'm not against swearwords per se.

Preacher used them. I guess it was part if its charm.

But there is something about Abnett's writing of Avatar which I find insulting. Worrying in fact.

After 25 years, Abnett seems to be going backwards. Saying shit in every other speech bubble is not what 2k was or is about. It's a regression. That's what I find so disturbing.

Anyone can write swearwords. You don't need an imagination.

Apart from Sin Dex, I think Abnett shouldn't go near 2k. He writes like a bad American comics writer aiming at 10 year olds.

I stand by my opinion regarding Andy Diggle. Anyone who commissions Killer, Helter Skelter, Carver Hale and more Tor Cyan stories doesn't deserve praise. I preferred Dave Bishop as editor.

scojo
 

[The Amstor Computer]

>>>Atavar is a great idea and the background is interesting it's just missing something.  I'm not sure what it is but it's a pretty big hole and it leaves it feeling pretty light<<<

My problem with Atavar is that there's no attachment to any of the characters. Do I care about the lead? Nope.
Without that, I can't get involved in the series - I don't care if he gets butchered by the Uos or if he just trots off into the sunset.

>>>All my comments above are aimed at the new strips, many of them probably commisoned by him.  None of which are awful and none of them really good.  Storming Heaven, Shakara, even Carver Hale had potential to be something more than they were<<<

I'd agree with that, but think about this:

The editor thinks the story has potential, but asks the writer to go away & tighten it up. The story comes back in a more finished form, but there's still something missing. At what point do you cut your losses & hand the strip onto an artist? After all, you've got a comic to fill & you've got a decent story ready to go.
At what point do you trade this in the hope that something better will appear?

[The Amstor Computer]

It would be interesting to get a better idea of exactly what he commissioned during his tenure. Any knowledge of the circumstances surrounding each commission would be interesting, for example:

IIRC, Andy has said that he commissioned Bad Company 2002 on the strength of a great pitch from Pete Milligan & that the finished tale didn't live up to the promise of that pitch. Would you blame him for that? A great pitch from an established writer, tying up a classic 2000AD series - I would have gone for it.

[paulvonscott]

Shit man, I missed that mo fo Killer.  

Maybe, just fucking maybe, you just have to work with what little shit you've got?  Ever think of that you pussy?

You can go around calling a fucker a cunt and all, but when it comes down to it you have to give some kind of fucking reasoned arguement at the end of the day.  And who the fuck says we should be arguing about it anyway, I mean fuck, it's just a dumb fuck of a comic, right?

Well, that was easy (and ridiculous), can't say I enjoyed it much.  Sorry too, but it's probably just a race to see who gets to use 'cunt' in 2000AD.  Personally, I'm not afraid of any words.  The injudicious word of flange might upset me, but I'm not scared of it.  I feel we either have standards, whatever they may be, or we just say it's a free for all.  Might make 2000AD more pouplar, after all the very concept of taboo words is rather ridiculous.  But listening to some mouthy little fourteen year old git using an expletive between every other word out of some desperate bid to gain power/cool/prestige is just embarresing.  I feel that way about swearing in 2000AD too.  When swear words have been used they always seem to jar as if they are being used self consciously.

As for who really is to blame for any real or percieved inadequacies in 2000AD who can say at the end of the day?  Not us.  We're just readers, we have no idea what goes on in any of these people's heads.  Nor do our comments really mean anything apart to other readers (I avoid 'fans' because it's almost always used derogatively by people in the business, just as 'punters' is used by prostitutes) nor perhaps should they.  I have no doubt that every word I have written on this message board is worthless beyond the board itself - perhaps even on it :)

[Thread Zero]

Blackblood, I think you have a fair point but if you just read the Killer script, what would you think of it?

I'm talking about the script.

How can Andy read Helter, Killer, Storming Heaven etc and not see their inherent flaws?

Everyone knows S H was too short. Like everyone knows Killer was some dumb strip aimed at 10 year olds. Helter was some childish piss take on Dredd's history. Carver Hale was some naff pastiche of gangster movies. Shakara was 3 parts stretched over nine or ten. Tor Cyan is a pathetic rerun of Rogue.

I cannot understand how an editor can read this stuff in script form and not see it is poor. That is why I slagged off Diggle. Because any self respecting fan can see it's blooming obvious.

scojo

[paulvonscott]

I heard Andy Diggle's comments on BadCo 3 and another story I half liked.

I agree, there probably is a side of editing, perhaps most of it we'll never see.  I've always had the impression that getting 2000AD every week is a pretty tight job in itself, never mind trying to steer great new strips to completion or find the new talent you need.

I'd like to hear about Andy's, David's and other Editor's experiences about editing 2000AD.

I think it's partly futile trying to find out who was to blame for old stuff, but worthwhile finding out why things didn't go to plan.

At the end of the day, i feel the Editor should carry the can for what has appeared in his reign.  Even though that may not be a fair reflection on his circumstances or what he had to work with.  

I'm also convinced it may be harder to see what is a great strip on script form than it may appeat.

It's the lack of understanding and ignorance on my part I find most frustrating.  I want to know why things don't work.  (Any ex-editors want to spill the beans to me in confidence, I'd love to hear it if your soul is heavy!)

I mean, when was a 2000AD editor or ex-editor given any respect for what they've done?

Oh well, finger tired.

Bye-ee

[Thread Zero]

I have a theory. I reckon the new Rogue, VC's and Stronty represent a fundamental shift in editorial policy.

New characters have failed. Name a new character since Sin Dex and Dante to catch on?

None.

Sorry Andy, but there you failed big time.

The future of 2k is to reinvent its past. See this summer for more...

scojo

[The Amstor Computer]

>>>Everyone knows S H was too short. Like everyone knows Killer was some dumb strip aimed at 10 year olds. Helter was some childish piss take on Dredd's history. Carver Hale was some naff pastiche of gangster movies. Shakara was 3 parts stretched over nine or ten. Tor Cyan is a pathetic rerun of Rogue<<<

Storming Heaven - Yep, I think most people would buy that. Too rushed & not enough interest in the characters.

Killer - Pure filler. Nowt more, nowt less. It was good enough to get commissioned *if* there was nothing better to fill the gap.

Helter Skelter - My take on this is that it was an affectionate homage that misfired. Garth Ennis loves Dredd, and if you heard him talking about the strip before it was published, he was eager to get into it.

Carver Hale - Gangster movies? More like a Hellblazer rip-off. Having said that, going back & re-reading it, it certainly isn't as bad as I first thought it was. As with Killer, I'd guess this was commissioned to fill a gap in the lineup.

Shakara - I loved this one, despite it being overstretched, and I think you'll find plenty who agree. It certainly doesn't deserve to be lumped in with Killer.

Tor Cyan - More filler.

Again, I think that for the most part, Andy probably did see the flaws in all of these strips, but what would you have run instead?
What if these strips were all you had, or worse - what if the only other option was to run a Steve Moore "Tales of Telguuth" epic?

If Andy didn't have a great pool of potential strips in the first place, I find it hard to criticise him for picking some sub-par thrills.

[Leigh S]

Its easy to accentuate the negative.....  it seems to me that Killer was a last minute replacement for Bad Company.  Presumably, Andy had a gun to his head here - either 5 blank pages or a nicely drawn piece of fluff.  

As for Helter Skelter, well let's see... a hugely popular writer wishes to return to 2000AD, bringing potential new readers to the comic.  The pitch sounds a lot of fun - Dredd vs Cal/Kazan/Fink/Geeks/Old one eye etc. and Wagner needs a rest to finally get Stront back. Ennis is known for his love of 2000AD, and has established he's a great talent.  However, his contract doesn't allow you to alter the scripts when they come in....  do you go for it?  What other options do you have if you dont? The same pretty much applies to the bad Company run. (although I believe it was time rather than contracts that stopped another rewrite on this one)

Its a problem for todays editors that they dont really have the time or inclination to rewrite scripts - it means you're going to alienate and most likely lose the creator.  

Dave Bishop did an excellent job of finding a core of writers who could pull 2000 out of the mire, and Abnett was undoubtably one of these.  Andys contribution was to try to recapture the glory days through a combination of classic artists and strips, while still trying out new blood.  In particular the art in the comic both from new and old creators improved vastly.  I'd be interested in the Scojo editorial policy that could avoid the few slips that Andy made in his time as editor.  Personally, I feel Andy displayed real enthusiasm for doing a good job, and put up a good fight against the odds.

That said, I do think editors should take a more proactive role - for instance the recent Dredd story about the Darwin Society was a good idea, badly executed.  That said, would a phone call to Alan Grant suggesting a more interesting take on the idea have been met with a barrage of abuse?  Do writers really want to rework their ideas?  After all to them it's time they could spend writing (and getting paid for) another script.  

I'd be interested in how stories are submitted to 2000 - in particular, are the one-off Dredds submitted as outlines before the go ahead, or do they turn up in Tharg's intray fully formed?

As for the original point of all this, Atavar could probably lose the swearing, though personally it's the increasingly gratuitous use of sex and nudity that irks me more than the odd swearword.

[Leigh S]

Hmmm, it was Diggle himself who implemented the "return of the classic thrill" policy, with both Stront and Nemesis, ABC Warriors on Mars, Satanus......

Rennie has been lined up to do Rogue for a while now, and Stront is certainly a Diggle production. That only leaves a question mark over "the VCs", and I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Andy was behind that as well...

[paulvonscott]

I think you have the wrong tack there Scojo.  I mean it isn't worth being antagonistic about it all.  Challenging and berating people after the event is a bit pointless.  Now if we could work out why things havn't worked, maybe there would be a point to this.

The fact there hasn't in my mind been a classic character since Zenith (and that was flushed away) is surely a sign of a bigger problem, maybe even a lack of confidence in 2000AD from all levels.  I really don't like Sin/Dex and like the odd Nik/Dante (the current artist does give him a certain sparkle in his eye) but as people like them i'm prepaired to live with that.

Old strips back, great, all for that.  But it seems to me that Andy took a fairly measured and reasoned step in using a balance of old and new that has done much to bring old readers back (maybe the figures say otherwise, it's just my perception).

The New strips, not a roaring success, but okay, certainly not some of the rubbish I witnessed before I left.  Could have been better, had their flaws, who knows why.

Saying people failed, not only isn't very nice, it ignores the positive, it isn't constructive, just negative.  yeah, it pisses people off (or they just laugh it off and then who's the fool) but it doesn't change anything.

I'm off to save some orphans, who's with me!?

Oh, okay, I'll just crack open a can of cider then.