Alan Grant on pulp & 2000AD...

[The Amstor Computer]

An old interview, but there are some ideas in there that I tend to agree with, and they might be of interest to other members.

Notable quotes:

"While I have nothing at all against seeing a 96 page comic book nicely painted and full of colour, for me that's not a kid's comic, that's a book for adults. A kid's comic should be printed on toilet paper the way they used to do with 2000AD, because then there's no feeling of it being worth something. It's something to buy, its part of the culture, and it's almost instantly disposable.
The price of comics needs to go down, and the only way to do that is to make them as cheaply as possible. You'll never get kids to buy comics now, because you can hire two videos for the night for the same cost, or you can hire a computer game for two or three days for the same cost..."

And:

"I'm a great fan of pulp, I love stuff that's throwaway. I used to love reading science fiction books, and when I got to the end of it, giving it someone else and saying, I don't need it back, pass it on to somebody else when you're finished. I think comics, to a large extent, have got too far away from their pulp background. This is maybe just a historical process and it may be something that couldn't have been prevented under any circumstances, but for me, 2000AD has gone too far from its pulp origins. I like to see that pulpiness, that spontaneity, that sense of fun about the whole thing, I'd like to see it back again..."

Any thoughts?

Link: http://www.ninthart.com/display.php?article=16" target="_blank">Awe & Dredd

[paulvonscott]

Yeah, i agree

[2000AD Online]

yes and no.  I like 2k the way it is, but cheap and nasty is part of why Japanese comics are so incredibly popular

[Oddboy]

It all sounds fine & dandy (if you'll excuse the pun) to have cheep disposable comics, but 2000AD stories are (on the whole) just too good to dispose of.  I'd be happy with bogroll paper comics that cost 16p again but I'd still keep 'em for ever and ever & read them time & time again.

[paulvonscott]

One problem I've always felt is that a comics quality seems to be tied up with paper costs in many peoples mind.

2000AD was NEVER as good as it was when it was a bog paper comic, now there are lots of reasons for that, that aren't to do with the paper.  But I've seen it happen before, nice paper shame about the contents.

There hasn't been any atmopshere to 2000AD since it changed format.  Sometimes the stories have been good, largely they were awful, but something certainly dissapeared.

Also, 2000AD, like many comics is now mainly for nostalgic 30 year olds, THAT is a crime.  I imagine most people would just happily mutter about computer games and that its now and adult comic (the most utter of bollocks, despite what Jason Kingsley says).  Listen to what Judge Dudus says, it already costs him ?1.40 of his ?1.50 pocket money a week.  There should be 40,000 Judge Dudus' (shudder) reading 2000AD a week, not a bunch of nostalgic and/or bitter old sods (and I include me in that) who buy it because they don't want to miss out on a number in their collection. I'd happily be in the minority, even if it meant 2000AD wasn't really for me anymore.

Also with 2000AD, there was a big push (largely by Titan books) to republish 2000AD material in a better format when it deserved it.  I look at those collections more than I ever go back to moth eaten progs.

When comics stopped being disposable and became presitige items with glossy paper, perfect binding and foil covers, they right royally scuppered themselves.

[The Amstor Computer]

>>>Listen to what Judge Dudus says, it already costs him ?1.40 of his ?1.50 pocket money a week.  There should be 40,000 Judge Dudus' (shudder) reading 2000AD a week, not a bunch of nostalgic and/or bitter old sods (and I include me in that) who buy it because they don't want to miss out on a number in their collection. I'd happily be in the minority, even if it meant 2000AD wasn't really for me anymore<<<

Exactly. I doubt it will ever happen with 2000AD, but it's something anyone wanting to launch a new comic should consider.
When I was buying comics as a kid, I couldn't have cared less about paper quality - I was looking for something with stories & art that hooked me. If it was cheap, I could buy it with my pocket money, or persuade my parents to part with a few pennies. There's no way I could have afforded to buy 2000AD week after week if it cost ?1.50 - there were too many other things I could do with my cash to waste that much on a comic.
Times have changed & a lot of children now have access to more money & have other interests, but ?1.50 is still too much for them to pay for a comic.

[JTurner]

PvS, I don't totaly agree with your statement about the content of 2K getting worse. Rather, it's changed with the times. I'd vote for a cheaper 2K with lower printing costs if it got more readers, but the youth of today is far more attracted to slick presentation than we were used to. Just look at lifestyle magazines, video game graphics and packaging, etc, even clothing. A comic that looked cheap would neither catch the eye, or inspire a self concious kid to buy it. Besides, marketing strategies today are all about this superficial image, and making kids grow up - agaain the rise of fashion and lifestyle products - younger children may read 2K, but I've got a feeling that as soon as they hit secondary school age, they'll find other interests (and glossier mags), and they'll worry that buying comics will make them look immature.

We need a change of culture more than a change of format.

[Tu-plang]

As much as we say we don't mind cheaper paper, cheaper mag, who remembers when 2k shaved a few centimetres off the side of the weekly prog in prog 1200.  There were letters for months about how the price went up and the paper size went down(!).  Tharg just said, basiclly, get over it, you grexnixes, the quality didn't change, if anything, it's better now.  Now imagine the harsh tellings off by the geek brigade if the weekly prog was on bog paper.  I personally don't care.

[paulvonscott]

Well, I disagree with you on quality of the strips, the slide began for me with 520, it was a good prog, but I sensed something was wrong almost immedietly, and sunk to an all time low during the nineties.  Stuff that made you pine for fucking Mach 1. It's now an okay comic, but really, give me almost any prog from the three hundreds or four hundreds to read and I'd be happier.  There may be bad progs, but there weren't bad years.

Not only cannot you provide a change of culture with what you've offered, I think that going with trends in consumerism can often lead to bad decisions.  If you want to make 2000AD more expensive glossier and flashier to attract kids, (whether you want to is another debate) then I think thats a bigger mistake.

2000AD came out at a right angle to all the other comics of the day, comics to me seemed to make now effort to grow out of the eighties, there were no new 2000AD's.  They carried on with an increasingly product lead war comic (which is great while the toys are popular), the Eagle, which was largely godawful (though often humorously so), and 2000AD which decided from about 520 in my mind that it was no longer a comic really for kids.

Part of the reason that comic culture is the way it is, is because most of them are shite, and even a lot of the good ones are about superheroes.  Just because its for kids doesn't mean it can't have a broader more acceptable appeal, look at Harry Potter, look at the Simpsons.

To just give up and say that the fight to have comics for kids is lost is pathetic.  So what if they go onto something else, or stop reading 2000AD (I'd argue that the mentality of 2000AD for a long time was actually secondary school), having a turnaround of readers is better than stagnation.

As it is, its all a futile arguemnt anyway, becaue rebellion don't want kids reading it.  jason Kingsley moved a pile of 2000AD's from out of the kids section in a shop.

Currently 2000AD is lodged between Private Eye and Gay Times on the top shelf of my local WHSMiths, the Megazine is stuck, fuck knows why, amongst some music mags.

The only hope 2000AD currently has is to get back some fans its lost during the late eighties and nineties.  Because I cannot see where the new ones are going to come from.  You can't tell me its easier to get a 30 year old adult to start reading comics, than a kid or someone in their teens?

[JTurner]

My 2K and Megazine are with the sci-fi mags.
I don't want a more glossy image, but a pulpy feel may attract student types, which may be for the best. Let's leave the kids out of the equation, they're just sponges for mass marketing, save comics for people with imagination and personal choice.

[paulvonscott]

The whole kids thing is a fair point.  I can understand various reasons not to involve kids.

The limitations imposed by having kids in the audience musts seem a bit of a drag, 2000AD survived mind, and there are restrictions on what 2000AD can have in today I bet.  It's just where you placed the boundary I guess.

A lot of people would be quite happy to dump the kids, in an attempt to shed the childish image.  Strangely enough despite a long absence of kids comics (apart from juvenilia) that image has remained.  Plus the amount of new people getting into comics must have dropped as a result.

"save comics for people with imagination and personal choice."

I dunno, don't kids have that anymore?  

Perhaps Jason kingsley has made the right choice, in making eplicit what has really been the case for fifteen years.  Personally I'm a little sad that that the era of comics for kids is not only behind us, but somewhere we can't return to.

[The Amstor Computer]

>>>Let's leave the kids out of the equation, they're just sponges for mass marketing, save comics for people with imagination and personal choice<<<

What, like the fanboys who pick up every multi-cover issue of the latest wanky spandex title?
Give kids some credit & offer them something imaginative - don't just abandon them to the fuckwits in marketing.

>>>To just give up and say that the fight to have comics for kids is lost is pathetic.  So what if they go onto something else, or stop reading 2000AD (I'd argue that the mentality of 2000AD for a long time was actually secondary school), having a turnaround of readers is better than stagnation<<<

Exactly - IMO, the big problem at the moment is that we've got an audience that *has* grown up with the comic. Instead of looking for a new generation of 2000AD fans, the comic has been catering to an aging audience. It might work for us, but it sure as hell isn't working for attracting new readers.

[JTurner]

Kids have some choice, but they rarely have the confidence to break from the herd. Young adults or teenagers following certain 'counter cultures' have this independent streak that I believe that most comics fans (especially in this country) share.

[philb]

interesting to note on:

http://www.comicon.com/newsarama/

big Marvel paper v price v quality debate
on newsarama...better paper for less cost?

follow the top link (Marvel news conference story)

[Tu-plang]

Kid's aren't abandoned to the "fuckwits in marketing".

People underestimate kids too much, their just like you but shorter.  They read Preacher in the Megazine without asking their parents what a "fuckin' black cunt" was.  Age and intelligence aren't always related.  If 2k was advertised where potential readers would see it (not necaserally kids, they read the same stuff as adults, I should know) it would do better.  Try in music/film/gaming mags. Empire would be perfect.