Happy Zombie Jesus Weekend to you all!

[Funt Solo]

"He's not exactly an absentee landlord, either, as you can speak to him at any time you like. And as every questioning child knows, he's always with you, even when you're on the toilet. If you don't hear his replies it's because you're going la-la-la-can't-hear-you-don't-want-to-hear-you with your fingers in your ears."

And there we cross the bullshit line.  Quite apart from anything, telling children that there's some spirit-dude watching them all the time is actually cruel and controlling, not comforting.  And people can't hear God's replies because God doesn't exist.  Anyone who does hear replies is simply making shit up in their head.  Whilst there's nothing wrong with doing that, one should remain aware of the reality of the situation, I think.  I mean - otherwise you might shift the blame of your actions from yourself to a fictional agent, and I believe that's verging on schizophrenia, although I'm not an expert.

[TordelBack]

And people can't hear God's replies because God doesn't exist.

And this is what bugs me too.  The voice you hear inside your head telling you the right thing to do, that's you, you're the good one, the compassionate one, not (and here I can't help myself) the Bearded Sky Fairy.  And it doesn't even get to work both ways - when you're weak, when you fail to do what's right, that's you too - the Sky Fairy gets off scot-free (is that a racist term now?  I've lost track...).    

It only seems fair that you (or your family, teachers and friends) should get the credit for your own moral compass when it's pointing in the right direction, since you it's also your fault when you fuck up and fall to the dark side.  

[Hoagy]

Ah, but if the universe is considered a some-being who decided to become creation, thus is a God who maybe
 universal sexually, we as beings are created from the same stuff can eventually tap into what is essentially a
calming of the brainwaves to a meditative almost vegetative state in some form of chanting and the resulting realisation,( call it cosmic acknowledgment or simply, listening to the universe tick) can be rationalised as 'in
communion with God'?

And Good and Evil do exist in their forms, it's just everyone's too busy to watch them, those who do too drunk
from avoiding the true and real horror of our sloppy efforts at becoming our destiny as a species, after seeing the devil reveal himself as a being which this Universal God created?


Finally, that Jesus, who we constructed as a deity, allowing us to understand the ultimate warnings also embellishing
 the story some, to help enlighten ourselves. But replicate the errors of history by forgetting them or more that
 we are unable to inform each other, until the paths we went on to find such means, also created a means to our own destruction?


And that is why God has no answer for Jesus when He asks;

"Why has Thou forsaken me?"

(Punctuation crew: Is it have or has?)

[TordelBack]

How do you afford that quantity of good drugs, Krom?  

[SamuelAWilkinson]

Question seconded, with mustard.

[Robin Low]

"And there we cross the bullshit line. Quite apart from anything, telling children that there's some spirit-dude watching them all the time is actually cruel and controlling, not comforting."

I don't come from a religious family, so I got most of this from school. I didn't find it cruel, controlling or comforting. I and the rest of my peers pretty much accepted it and then got with what school kids do.

"And people can't hear God's replies because God doesn't exist."

I prefer to say, 'There is no evidence that God exists.' I like to be open-minded about these things.

"Anyone who does hear replies is simply making shit up in their head. Whilst there's nothing wrong with doing that, one should remain aware of the reality of the situation, I think. I mean - otherwise you might shift the blame of your actions from yourself to a fictional agent, and I believe that's verging on schizophrenia, although I'm not an expert."

It's pretty much impossible to know what really goes on inside anyone else's head, even with a bagfull of electrodes and a green wavy line machine, so I wouldn't be so absolutist about it myself.

Personally, I *would* be wary of anyone who says they hear clearly worded messages from god in their head. However, if you actually talk to Christians, you'll find that those who say they 'hear' god are actually talking about feelings and emotions (that 'sense of peace' is a classic) that they experience under certain circumstances, such as prayer and meditation.

Regards

Robin

[Funt Solo]

My response was heavily based on your statement that:

:"If you don't hear his replies it's because you're going la-la-la-can't-hear-you-don't-want-to-hear-you with your fingers in your ears."

That appeared to me (although I could be jumping to conclusions, I admit) as if you were being rather absolutist about there being a God, and him communicating with people, and some people deliberately shutting out "His Word".

Maybe I assumed too much - but that's what set my bullshit detectors ringing.  And now it appears that you're presenting seemingly reasonable arguments based on it being impossible to prove beyond doubt that (for example) I'm really a sentient sherman tank that only imagines this human life on Earth, whilst in reality I'm riding around in a crator on Mars taking pot shots at water melons.  

I don't expect anyone to take me seriously about that, which is why I don't take people seriously when they (appear to) say that I'm somehow resisting the word of (their imaginary) God. Yes, anything is possible; but is it likely?

Regarding the indoctrination of (naturally vulnerable) children, the fact that you "didn't find it cruel, controlling or comforting" is fair enough.  That you then go on to speak for all your peers is not, unless you're capable of mind-reading or carried out some kind of scientific study. I'm assuming neither is the case.

[House of Usher]

I think I detect an argument just starting to get interesting. But I can't just sit back and watch when people appear to be at cross purposes.

Robin Low: "I like to be open-minded about these things."

Personally I don't. It may be nice to keep an open mind about whether the universe came about by chance or by the efforts of an immortal magic man who lives in the sky. However, that's not the whole of it. When the proposition being offered is "either you believe this is true or you're going to Hell", I believe you have to make up your mind one way or the other. If Heaven and Hell are real and you're 'keeping an open mind about it', then how do you deal with the possibility that your agnosticism means you're going to Hell? Call me a game theorist, but to keep an open mind isn't a rational stance. If you're keeping an open mind, you have to consider the implications of the alternative possibilities and take action accordingly, i.e. if you think there *may* be a God, you should make your mind up and start prostrating yourself before Him. As it is, you're doubting Him, and doubting Him is a sin.

Alternatively you can not keep an open mind about it, form your own judgement based on the evidence and the balance of probability as you see it, and as in the other case, take action accordingly.

I am not convinced by the story about there being a God in the sky who made everything and who punishes people for living by their own moral code and not His, and accordingly I choose not to believe, and I fully expect that when I die I will cease to exist as a conscious, sensate being, and I will be beyond punishment.


funt solo: "That appeared to me (although I could be jumping to conclusions, I admit) as if you were being rather absolutist about there being a God, and him communicating with people, and some people deliberately shutting out "His Word". "

When Robin said "If you don't hear his replies it's because you're going la-la-la-can't-hear-you-don't-want-to-hear-you with your fingers in your ears", I thought he was mucking about and presenting a caricature of the sort of thing believers say.

To me, the idea that the universe was created by an invisible Supreme Being who then plays a game of hide-and-seek wherein you have approximately 70 years to find the guy who's hiding, and if you don't find him you get hurled on the bonfire, seems too implausible to be true; so I don't trouble myself a great deal worrying about whether God is real or not.

Actually, to take the hide-and-seek analogy further, there are other players who say "he's hiding in the wardrobe", and they're so convinced of it that they've written a pamphlet stating it as a fact. These other players have also elaborated the rules of the game so that if you don't find the guy who's hiding, but you believe them, you can escape being hurled on the bonfire. You're allowed to look in the wardrobe of course, but you have to believe he's in there even if you can't see him because he's invisible.

[Dunk!]

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFO6ZhUW38w" target="_blank">Disbelief summed up in one catchy song. :)

[Peter Wolf]

 I have to agree with your points.Inside every Agnostic there is an Atheist that wants to get out.In my case anyway and i say agnostic because i have no proof he does exist.I also say Agnostic as i find atheists rather too dogmatic and nihilistic at times and the debate just degenerates into an us and them scenario no diufferent to a muslim arguing with a christian about who is right and wrong.Religion cant provide any hard evidence except for evidence that can fit their argument.Sciencer does have an understanding of quantam mechanics or physics or whatever it is that is only very basic at this point in time so in a way science has no more right to say that there is no afterlife than christians who say that there is.Neither can provide evidence although science can in the long run answer this question but i dont believe that some scientists/atheists would want to do this unless they are open minded to the idea themselves.

 So in the meantime i sat on the fence and because i dont live in fear of anything i cant be coerced into fear based coercion and controlling mechanisms.I have been provided with free will and the ability to reason and question things by god or natural selection/evolution so it seems unreasonable that god would say dont use your brain when questioning your own existence.

 Why not just make thinking a sin and have done with it ?


 Or perhaps it is already if you think of right wing Christian fundamentalists who instead of loving thy neighbour choose to hate them instead.If i was god i wouldnt want to wait until they die to sort them out.But then if you think of christianity in its pure sense then these types are antethisis of being a christian and really it amounts to nothing more than mob rule on their part which is just typical human behaviour so they use religion as a tool  to suit their own mentality.

 And thats what i think religion is all about.Just something made up to suit the mentality of humans.

 And since humans destroy so much of gods? creations then if i was god i would be up in arms about the state of things.This leads me to think that christians spend rather too much time looking up in the sky instead of sorting out the mess in their own backyards not to mention the legacy they will leave for future generations and arent really morally superior to non christians and in fact have a far worse track record than Atheists have at present as i dont believe there have been any instances of atheists or agnostics inflicting punishment on those who are religous or wishing them eternal damnation either.


 The whole thing has more holes in it than a lump of swiss cheese.

 As for being coerced into not being an agnostic then that just isnt going to work for the simple fact that i will not submit without convincing evidence as to expect me to do that is unreasonable and not even god himself can alter my position regarding this.


 If there is any judging that happens then it should be upon your actions and not based on belief and anyway a reasonable god would expect you to question his existence not hurl you into a bonfire for questioning things.


 And anyway whats the big deal about all the secrecy with god ? Why cant he make an appearence once in a while ? It would confirm his existence if nothing else.

 And another thing.Since so many claim to be God fearing and Christians when they are not ? why not make an example of them once in a while and start striking them with lightning ?


 Why also the nonsense that some Christians claim that if you are born blind or whatever ,you are being punished for sins in a past life when Christians dont believe in reincarnation?

[Funt Solo]

Oh, what pish.  Just because quantum mechanics is a difficult field of science, it does not logically follow that the concept of an afterlife is a reasonable one to entertain.  In fact, there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of an afterlife, which rather points towards a sensible conclusion, doesn't it?

Fuck.  I just don't understand human brains that swallow that as anything other than wishful thinking.  "We'll live on..."  Why will you?  What evidence do you have that this is the case?  What's that - no fucking evidence at all?  Wow - then you're clearly deluded.  

You know, there's exactly no evidence that clouds are really frying pans in disguise, either.  Hey now - keep an open mind here! *clang*  Ow - fuck!

[TordelBack]

Awesome link Swimini!

[Peter Wolf]

 Further to all that while i am in the flow .there is this idea that God is universal and can see and know everything all at once.So he created earth and everything on it and then sits back and lets it all happen then judges everyone when they die.

 So what is the point ? Why create something then let it go to rack and ruin ? It defies logic. So that means that we are all gods playthings and the only point in life is too be judged at the end of it? Why bother doing that ?So instead of christianity saying it has the answer to life when it doesnt really ?

 Also if i was god then i would have made it a sin to abuse animals for example instead of saying that they are there to be abused.


AAaaah but then the universe is so big that we are insignificant and god is busying himself somewhere else .Then you have the short/long timescale thing.Thats all relative anyway and if i took his example by concentrating prely on the long term while neglecting the short term then by doing that i would fuck up the long term anyway so that doesnt add up.

 Also there is a case for saying that you shouldnt have too many projects on the go at once as you cant keep control of things if you are forever doing something else and you never really finish anything.


 My point is why go to the effort of creating something when you dont care what happens to it ?


 That doesnt make sense either.

[Peter Wolf]

 
 Its quite simple so i will spell it out for you.


 You dont have any evidence that there is or there isnt so logically by default you cannot rule it out 100%.Its not wishful thinking to consider the fact it might it exist any more than i hope to hell there isnt .

 Its simply unknowable.

 I dont have any evidence there is and neither do you .I dont deny the possibilty that there may be some sort of continuation of life after death simply because i dont know any more than i know that there isnt.


 Even if i was 99% sure it doesnt you cannot deny the existence of that 1% that says it may be possible.

 Science doesnt claim that its 100% out of the question because science doesnt know yet and you cant claim that science knows the answer to every deep philisophical or existential question about life.

 Thats what anyone who knows anything about philosopohy or Esoterics will tell you.

[Tweak72]

OFFS! What is wrong with you people? Can you not put aside your egos for one moment to not ague or people/belief bash for just one thread? I didn't start this tread for any other purpose then to promote tolerance and good vibes for a weekend that has meaning to several different philosophies. Not to bash an adaptation of an old story loosely based on historical fact. Bugger off and start your own thread.

Grrr!

Tweak72