This Forum

[pauljholden]

"I think censorship of opinion (and that's what is being talked about here) is a dangerous route to take- except for bigotry and racial hatred etc, because it only takes one Tharg to stop giving a damn about the readers wants and start giving his mates from the pub plenty of 'work', bankrolled by a readership who feel they can't voice dissatisfaction.
Where do you draw the line? "

Let me repeat this, since you may have missed it above:

No-one would dare suggest that anyone here isn't allowed to express their opinion on the comic (or its contents) - whether they've paid or not - the question is, should this be the place for the overly negative harping that tends to erupt more often than not?

-pj

[Buttonman]

I'm now self employed but when I worked in an insurance office I got dogs abuse every day over repudiations, offers, policy interpretations. the weather, the time sheets, the coffee machine - why should paid creators be any different? And don't say because this is a public forum - I was once moaned at in the Sunday Mail Judge Column!

The fact that that this is a fan board (fan = fanatic) the compliments do flow regularly and surly the odd ya boo sucks is a small price to pay for all that gravy? I myself have suffered some creator's abuse (thanks Floyd!) and frankly it was water off a duck's back - better to be talked about than not be talked about!

[pauljholden]

So you're saying it's alright to be rude and uncivil to people because people were rude and uncivil to you in a different job?

I'm certainly not asking people to tell me I'm great (and, if you read my posts you'll see I'm at pains to point out that I enjoy balanced opinion - and if there're enough negative views of a thing then I may even concede the point. Maybe) what I'm hoping for is that the board can rise above the screaming, the shouting, the unhinged opinions, the instant dismissals of work yet to be seen, and the absolute rudeness and uncivility that can often be summed up with the words 'Haven't seen it, but it looks shit'.

Really, is that too much to ask?

-pj
ps In my naivety, I've always assumed 2000AD readers were a cut above normal people - I just figured, I read 2000AD (and have done all my life) and I'm a decent human being, surely all 2000AD readers are the same.

[Leigh S]

To be fair, PJ - can you point to a single example of "I haven't seen it, but... "?

[Steve Green]

Maybe I'm not that sensitive, but I didn't think the place was this bad or the negative criticism that prevalent.

Maybe part of the problem is that people are more likely to comment when they don't like something than when they are just happy with what's in the prog? The end result being an impression of mainly negative posts.

Honestly, I don't know whether a harder line on posts is the answer or not, the same with real name posts.

Personally, I wouldn't be that bothered about the opinions of anyone on the internet any more than I would be bothered about someone ranting on a street corner - but it's not my work being talked about, so it's easy for me to say that :)

- Steve

[satchmo]

that PS is ludicrous pj. Its a bunch of people talking about comics, nobody is better than anyone else.

As Amadeus Cho would say, Chillax.

[Buttonman]

So you're saying it's alright to be rude and uncivil to people because people were rude and uncivil to you in a different job?

Seems reasonable!

I've never been rude or uncivil to you or anyone else PJ, but being devil's advocate I'd suggest it comes with the territory of being a published creator. Unless it's defamatory I don't see the issue - published creators in 2000ad have crossed many hurdles, been judged and passed by experts and paid for their efforts - why should some anonymous internet critic cause such concern?

I have no ambition be to a 2000ad writer (or artist!) mainly because I know I could never hack it, but if I were published I know I'd value the opinion of my editor far beyond that of some  yahoo with a chip on his shoulder.

[Leigh S]

Personally, I find I post more when the progs are rocking than when theys a sucking, but I suspect in general, it might well be some people only raise a voice to moan.

Philt seems to be at an extreme of feeling about the current progs (whether you agree with how he expresses that or not), and while this run hasnt been the best received on the board in comparison to some real popular offensives, I
 hadn't picked up on a sense of too much malcontent amongst the general populace, though maybe theyre on average just more positive than me at the moment, and its all relative!  

[pauljholden]

Numanti said:

"Also, Defoe back? Meh."

That's the most recent one.

And I KNOW there's an entire thread that really puts that single sentence into a different perspective, but, as a creator that dismissive swatting away of months of work really is soul destroying*. If it happened on alt.comics.2000AD, fair enough, on 2000adreview, that's fair too - on someone's blog? fair game. But I don't think it belongs on the official message board.
 
- pj
*Leigh Gallagher is the artist, I have no idea of how he feels about this - I'm talking about this purely from my own perspective.

[Floyd-the-k]

I entirely understad your opinions, PJ, which are put in your usual reasonable and well-written way.  I also understand your feelings - it must be very gutting to put weeks of your life into something and just get a 'that sucks' response from someone.
  I'm not a creator, but I can't think of any rules that would make the board less hurtful for creators.    If I were a creator, I would either avoid the board, or just steel myself everytime I looked at it.  Would a beautifully written review that took someone ten minutes of great care to write, but which meant pretty much the same as 'this story is the worst ever published' be less painful to read than 'meh'?
   I was saddened by Matt's original post because, with a few exceptions, I like the free feel of this site

no problem using my real name of course,

Floyd Kermode

[Peter Wolf]

 "Ten Seconders and especially Dead Eyes have come in for an absolute pounding over the weeks from probably the majority on here. Is that the fault of the fans or the fault of the stories? "


 Its not anyones fault.


 Some strips have a broad appeal and others dont and quite a lot of what i like in the prog hasnt always  been everyone elses cup of tea but without  some of the less popular strips in the prog i may not have been such a fan of 2000ad.


 I like stuff that is different or quirky and i dont want to see stuff thats been tried and tested or see new strips that are written to a formula that dont challenge.

 I suppose its a case of how you define quality but i dont think popularity automatically means quality.

 Its all in the eye of the beholder and personally i want more Dead Eyes.

 It was a bit of a surprise that Kingdom  was so popular as i thought here we go again another minority interest strip that i like that others wont get.


 I have spent the best part of a day on one smallish drawing of Beachy Head and its still not finished.


  "ITS SHIT !!"


  Bastards.


 

[pauljholden]

"that PS is ludicrous pj. Its a bunch of people talking about comics, nobody is better than anyone else. "

yeah, you're right. Still, I know I'd rather spend my time chatting to people into 2000AD than people into football.

-pj

[Bad Andy]

yeah, you're right. Still, I know I'd rather spend my time chatting to people into 2000AD than people into football.

Shows you what you know. Some of us are into both. UNITED! UNITED!

[pauljholden]

I'm not asking for any special treatment as a creator - and, in fact, I tend to take the review threads better than many of my peers (oh sod it, all right - I admit it, I actually enjoy some instand dismissal of my work, it means the only way I can go is up)

But my purpose here is:

a) to suggest a couple of simple rules (see my first post) that, I think, will instantly make people slightly more considerate in their posting.

and - SEPARATELY  - as though posted by a different person -
 
b) let people know what it's like from the other side, as a creator -

Would people prefer if this board was creator -free? Then none of this would be an issue? or would you prefer a board that creators felt comfortable moving about in? Yes, it may mean that some of the more rambunctious members might have to reign in the colourful metaphors they enjoy but it would also make this message board unique on the internet in that there would be no distinction between fan and pro - only a bunch of people who share a common interest in 2000AD.

What's interesting to me, is that the people who I am always sure have thought about what they've typed, who don't indulge in the game of out-hyberboling other posters in negativity are also the first to say 'yes, I have no problem giving up my anonymity'.

And with that, I'll withdraw from the thread - in case I accidentally muddy the waters further.

-pj

[mogzilla]

(dips toe in carefully)

surely a forum is there for debate? we dont all like the same stuff. I dont like dante, thats not a criticism to the creator .its just not my cup of tea.
the bloke at my comic shop hates (yes hates)dredd.i didnt belay him about the head with my toddler i just smiled and paid for my "origins" gn.
ther have been a few examples when i've expressed an opinion that some may find defamatory (b.o.s.2&3) but it is MY opinion.
   there have been some recent interviews of creators/artists slating the online communinity if they have criticised their work.

there are bitchy forums out there(ebay) but as i stated in one of my first ever posts this place is on the whole a nice place. there ARE hiccups on the site .
  we have fun,some threads last forever and deservedly so ,some die a death and deservedly so (a few of mine!!!)
   getting back on track.....we should be allowed to voice our opinon without a creator/artist throwing there dolly out of the pram if they dont like it...after all,how many have told us the tale of being rejected time after time before being accepted.good job they didnt have internet forums in the 70's or we'd not have a prog!

Lets get a moderator it would be a shame if the board got pulled because of a minority  of baiters...democracy now!