The crap they're teaching your kids!

[Bouwel]

Another thing Dropping payloads off TARGET so you can turn back early, this would probably cause huge civilian casualties.

A lot of WW2 is now viewed through rosey glasses even by people who were there. Yes, I am forever greatful that there were (and are) people willing to do great harm to protect my freedom but things were not as nice and 'Blitz spirit' as one would believe.

STARFISH and Q decoy-sites were often placed on bomber routes and this sometimes meant placing them close to rather large communities, as happened close to here. One bomb meant for Liverpool landed in the middle of a road and killed 20 civilians.

19,000 American troops deserted in Europe after D-Day, 20,000 British troops were tried for desertion during WW2. About 300 of the British troops were actually executed.

Theft and looting was rife throughout the Eastend during the Blitz.

A major march took place in Liverpool against the war while the war was on; many dockers striked for more pay causing delays in the unloading of essential supplies (witnessed by my grandfather).

Once again, I applaud and support the troops who fought and still fight for us. But history has interesting little hidden secrets, possibly dark secrets, if you look deeper and speak to people who were there and who remember it as it really was.

I find it fascinating.

-Bouwel-

[Paul faplad Finch]

I find it difficult, in my heart of hearts, to condemn cowardice for the simple reason that I think I'd have exactly that response myself. I'm not making light here and I take no pride in this but I came to the conclusion a long time ago that in a life or death situation I'd run like Hell. I'd feel like crap about it afterwards but in the moment instinct would be king and I'd do what I had to to live.

I have nothing but respect for those who give their all in defence of others or for a cause but I just haven't got it in me. Lifes too precious.

[Peter Wolf]

There was  a film society at my school with Dr Strangelove and Psycho shown amongst many others.

My school had quite a high turnover of school leavers going on to Oxford and Cambridge.I wasnt one of them .There was a board with a list of names that went to Oxbridge up on the wall that went back at least a century.

Shame there wasnt a list like a Hall of Shame and failures or i would have been listed on it.

[TordelBack]

There was a board with a list of names that went to Oxbridge up on the wall that went back at least a century.

What a hideous thing to have in a school - "this, lads, is success". There is a lot that's good about many of the Oxbridge colleges, but when you come down to it getting in isn't the trick - it's paying for it.   I was offered a postgrad place in Oxford many years ago, which shows any phewl can get in, but even with a partial scholarship I couldn't come close to affording it.

[Bouwel]

One of my close relatives is a senior Professor at Jesus College Cambridge. Interesting fellow. Likes cutting dead people up to see what killed them. Fun at parties.

-Bouwel-

[Richmond Clements]

One of my close relatives is a senior Professor at Jesus College Cambridge. Interesting fellow. Likes cutting dead people up to see what killed them. Fun at parties.

-Bouwel-

I'm sure hi is- as long as he doesn't bring his work home with him.

[TheEdge]

I find it difficult, in my heart of hearts, to condemn cowardice for the simple reason that I think I'd have exactly that response myself. I'm not making light here and I take no pride in this but I came to the conclusion a long time ago that in a life or death situation I'd run like Hell. I'd feel like crap about it afterwards but in the moment instinct would be king and I'd do what I had to to live.

I have nothing but respect for those who give their all in defence of others or for a cause but I just haven't got it in me. Lifes too precious.

I dont have a problem with people who are scared and dont want to fight they have options, they could object.
(i know conscientious objector's were strapped to cannons etc in WW1) refuse to fight, and be placed in a support role or even sent to prison, its better than acts of sabotage

[TordelBack]

Yeah, but wasn't Yossarian's real beef that his insane superiors kept changing the rules?

If Yossarian was the only one on the base acting the eejit, I'd sort-of agree that his actions were indefensible, but Heller describes just about everyone involved as a complete loon.  The promise of only having to fly a certain number of missions, only to have the number endlessly extended, and the twisted eponymous catch itself, are more than enough reason to judge Yossarian's actions less harshly; that and the genuine psychological scars from the spoilerific pivotal event that we don't find out the truth about until the very end.

[Bouwel]

I dont have a problem with people who are scared and dont want to fight they have options

I remember reading a book about bomb disposal which stated that quite a few conscientious objectors voluteered to be bomb disposal engineers. I must dig it out and have a read of it again. As I remember they were still treated with distrust and out-right hostility regardless of the dangerous task they were doing.

Edited to add:
This site is interesting reading, although I'm not sure of its impartiality:
//http://www.ppu.org.uk/learn/infodocs/cos/st_co_wwtwo.html

-Bouwel-
(For the record, I am not a CO myself)

[Kerrin]

Yeah, but wasn't Yossarian's real beef that his insane superiors kept changing the rules?

That and Orr with his goddamn crab apples.

[Peter Wolf]

There was a board with a list of names that went to Oxbridge up on the wall that went back at least a century.

What a hideous thing to have in a school - "this, lads, is success". There is a lot that's good about many of the Oxbridge colleges, but when you come down to it getting in isn't the trick - it's paying for it.   I was offered a postgrad place in Oxford many years ago, which shows any phewl can get in, but even with a partial scholarship I couldn't come close to affording it.

It was an elitist school .

[SamuelAWilkinson]

Yeah, but wasn't Yossarian's real beef that his insane superiors kept changing the rules?

That and Orr with his goddamn crab apples.

Let's not forget that he was mad anyway - otherwise he would have been able to get out on the grounds of madness.

On the subject, has anyone read the sequel, Closing Time? My once-read copy sits next to my heavily-thumbed Catch-22, and I recall finding it pretty hard going in comparison.

[TordelBack]

On the subject, has anyone read the sequel, Closing Time? My once-read copy sits next to my heavily-thumbed Catch-22, and I recall finding it pretty hard going in comparison.

Aye.  It was strongly recommended to me by a friend just after it came out, and to my shame I bought a hardback copy which I have read exactly once and have completely forgotten everything about it.  On the other hand my Catch 22 paperback, bought for 50p at a parish sale, is nearly shredded with re-reading.

[TheEdge]

I remember reading a book about bomb disposal which stated that quite a few conscientious objectors voluteered to be bomb disposal engineers. I must dig it out and have a read of it again. As I remember they were still treated with distrust and out-right hostility regardless of the dangerous task they were doing.

Unfortunatly during WW1 we were horrible to objectors, never mind stories of harmless white feathers for cowards. The army would strap them to front line artillery, human meat shields. Shot or imprisoned. lucky ones they would make them medics and strecher bearers and they would have to walk around no-mans land collecting wounded under sniper fire etc.

WW2 they were treated better, during conscription you could go before a non military panel and be made exempt from military service (rare but did occur ).

Generally during WW2 objectors made medics, bomb disposal, training, mechanics, drivers and couriers. ( most of which was done on the front line)

[House of Usher]

Necropost!

At my local comprehensive the English class is studying a horrid poem by Eileen McAuley called 'The Seduction' (nasty boy gets impressionable girl drunk, takes advantage, she gets pregnant).

It's a fairly widely studied poem for GCSE. As is the way with studying literature in schools these days, one of the methods of study is comparison with another text. I've had a look on the internet: suggested comparison texts for 'The Seduction' include To His Coy Mistress by Andrew Marvell and Cousin Kate by Christina Rosetti.

The English teacher at the local comprehensive decided to give them Brenda's Got a Baby by 2Pac instead. I think it's a bit of a crass pairing. Even Fifteen, sung by Taylor Swift, would be a better choice for comparison and closer to the theme of the McAuley poem.