Defoe - awesome, poop-tastic, or somewhere in between?

[Dog Deever]

I like Red Seas, too.
I really don't see what there is to detest so much about Defoe. The usual criticism of 'preachyness' just simply can't be brought to bear here. Sure, the dialogue can be a bit awkward in places, but it's a small price to pay for such an concept as Defoe. I still lament the quiet whimper that marked the passing of Black Siddha. I'd love to see that fantastic art collected in a trade. I'd also like to see the strip back- with the Siddha taking over some other tosser who needs his karmic account balanced- new characters, new setting and new thrust for the story.

Write it Pat- pretty please with knobs on...

[Mike Gloady]

Give him ten years, it'll get a revamp and be hugely popular as it ought to have been all along. 

[Paul faplad Finch]

I looked into this thread tonight not with the intention of posting but just to see what people were saying about a series I have a particular dislike of. And I saw Jims reply to my last post yesterday. I'djust like to say this:

I don't troll. I know Jim was probably joking, evidenced by his pretty picture but his use of the word 'genuinely' leads me to think he was at least partly serious. My dislike of Pats work, and Defoe in particular is very real, and not somthing I exagerate for effect. I will concede that when I first joined the board I came across as a little heavy handed in my Pat bashing and many regulars probably thought I was indeed a troll but I have toned it down a lot since then, going so far as to not comment on some of his stuff in reviews threads on the basis of "if you have nothing nice to say...". I'd hoped I was a regular enough fixture on the board now to be allowed to speak my piece.

As to the comment that prompted Jims remark. I said that Andy attempting to exert some quality control was probaly responsible for the head bashing. I diddn't say that he succeeded in exerting that control. In truth though, I wouldn't like to pick one section of Pats output, Diggle era/Smith era, over the other because to my mind they are equally lacking in merit, just for different reasons.

If Jim was joking I appologise for overreacting but I know how seriously some people can take accusations of trolling and I don't like the idea that people would think of me in that way on a board that I enjoy spending (too much) time on.

[Jim_Campbell]

If Jim was joking I appologise for overreacting but I know how seriously some people can take accusations of trolling and I don't like the idea that people would think of me in that way on a board that I enjoy spending (too much) time on.

To be honest, Faplad, I wasn't sure. I accept unreservedly that you weren't and apologize for the suggestion that you were.

Nonetheless, I remain staggered that even if only in terms of relative dislike, you don't see a difference between the Secret Commonwealth, which I would possibly hold up as something of an all-time low, and any of Pat's more recent work.

Secret Commonwealth really felt like a creator going through the motions -- if memory serves, this is the story where Ukko actually asks Slaine whether event X contradicts existing continuity and basically Slaine replies "Yeah, but that probably happened in a parallel universe or something, so who gives a fuck?"

I find Pat's work hit and miss, but his post-Diggle work has at least felt like he's trying, has shown an energy and an enthusiasm and an inventiveness where his work during the Diggle tenure felt weary and half-hearted. Even when I haven't enjoyed a strip, I'm just happier to see that fierce imagination back in 2000AD.

Clearly, this is something we're unlikely to agree on, so I hope that you will, at least, accept my apology for the misplaced accusation.

Cheers

Jim

[moly]

ive really enjoyed defoe its a nice quirk on the zombie stories

ps also loved red seas but it does seem to suffer from to small a run then long breaks between stories

[Van Dom]

Don't have much to add to all this except to say I enjoy Defoe quite a bit too. Its bonkers and the art is fab and when its running its a strip that I have to take a bit of time over reading and digesting, which I like, coz it makes the prog last longer and makes me feel like I'm getting more value for money! Plus it keeps you on your toes by referring to stuff thats happened in previous books so you have to keep on looking up the old stuff so you know whats going on... Sounds like hard work but again, I enjoy this, it engages the brain and you can't just breeze through the six pages in a couple of minutes.

Red Seas...I WANT to like it, and I don't DISLIKE it but...yeah, it would be nice if it actually went somewhere, or picked a direction and stayed with it rather than chopping and changing every couple of stories. The art I think does detract from it somewhat, I do like a bit more detail in the panels than just the heads of the two people who are talking. Back in the old Zenith days Yeowell would have been my favourite artist but these days I dont enjoy his work that much unfortunately.

[Tweak72]

With every episode of Defoe I get more and more disappointed. I read them in the hope that like Red Seas or Shakara the mindless continuous action will have set the stage for a gripping back story. And with every episode I find myself disappointed. I have found Mills work over all to be dull and repetitive. With his long running stories new content tarnishing their past Glory like tidal sand on glass with every new episode. The one exception being Savage. I don't know why but this has been awesome from day one. His new stuff is poor Gray Suit has glimmers of potential but keeps falling short. Defoe just seems like Mills is trying to out action and out plot twist everyone in the steam punk or Zombie genre and the story just ends up being boring. I find it more frustrating because Savage is so well done. Possibly it is because of the eternal working class hero thing he is always examining. Savage was a "working class" hero 30 years ago the "they killed his family" was relevant then but now it is a story about a soldier fighting to free his country not a lorry driver resisting an invading force.

Perhaps that is what the problem is. Pat Mills' pursuit of the working class hero story for a nation society of middle class who do not know what that really means. The class system that Pat keeps referring to is more and more irrelevant. The class system structure that worked so well in Charles War and even in Invasion 1999 simply does not exist anymore in the same recognisable way and while you can see some of its remains lingering these remnants are simply echoes.  What today defines you 'class'? Is it the work you do? If you have a mortgage? How educated you are? I know plumbers with degrees who own their own home. How does the concept of class apply? Maybe that is why Mills work is failing more and more for me.

[bluemeanie]

I love it.
Have only read the last arc, still need to pick up the trade of earlier stuff, but found it loads of over the top fun in the same way a lot of the early Nemesis stuff was. Theres just so much crazy shit squeezed into every page.
And someone commented on the sound-bites but one of the things I like most about it is that in each issue there is always at least one AWESOME line in it that yeah, if it was a movie would be in the trailer, but whats wrong with that?

I mean... "I need some female fuel for my carnal forge!"    ???

thats gold!

[TordelBack]

Maybe that is why Mills work is failing more and more for me.

Don't see things the same way as you Tweak, but that was a fascinating analysis!  I'd never really considered class in Mills' work beyond the obvious in Charlie's War, Invasion and (later) Third World War. I'd always seen it more as large organisations and orthodoxies versus the individual.

For me as an Irish Middle Class spode, British comics in the 70's and early 80's always seemed to be about resourceful working class lads outwitting nasty chinless toffs (be they Alf Tupper, Danny Pike, or Kurt Stahlman), a set of antagonists which for me were just as much a part of a fantasy world as Kirrin Island, the Eastern Front or the Olympics.  So maybe I was just glad when Mills started being more obtuse about it.

In fairness, it'd be hard (maybe even pointless) to write about the mid-17th century at all without reference to the huge political and social swings that make the period so interesting, so I think Mills should get a pass there.  I'm currently writing about that period myself (in a boring technical sense) and some of the clashes of ideas are astonishingly modern an relevant.

[Jim_Campbell]

I'm currently writing about that period myself (in a boring technical sense) and some of the clashes of ideas are astonishingly modern an relevant.

One of the essays I most enjoyed writing, and which met with most approval from my tutor, during an otherwise fairly dismal English Literature degree went under the title "Sins are all Lords and Great Ones: discuss the concept of class war in John Bunyan's The Pilgrim's Progress ..."

Sadly, this masterpiece of literary criticism was written longhand and has long since gone the way of all tat. The following year, though, Christopher Hill collected a series of essays in the volume Turbulent, Seditious and Factious People: John Bunyan and His Church, 1628-88 and includes a contribution from the splendid John Carey on this very subject.

Cheers

Jim

[TordelBack]

Oooh, ta Jim!   Sounds like my sort of thing.

[Peter Wolf]

I like Defoe and initially i was quite excited by it when it first appeared but now its 3 series later it doesnt excite as much as i thought it would do as the script doesnt explore the period setting as much as i was expecting it to and it doesnt explore the historical figures that were around at the time and their involvement in the esoteric and the Occult because there is a rich vein of history to do with the initiating of the British Empire as just one example.

I guess this is because i know a little bit about that period of history so it affects the way i read the strip so if i din=dnt know what i know then i would enjoy it more and take it at face value.There are certain avenues i would like to see the strip go down but i know it wont because Pat mills has just gone off on his own trip which is fair enough but i get the impression doesnt have a good enough knowledge of the subject and the historical setting to be able to do that.

The steam powered cars etc seem to me to be in the strip to make it more fantasy or sci fi or to make the strip more dynamic as if to suggest that the convential mode of transport at the time like horses and carriages are boring somehow .The same withb the weaponry.It again seems like everything has to be oversized and exaggerated to the point of ridiculousness for the same reasons as above.

Yes it has zombies in it but thats not enough to make me go wild for the strip unfortunately.

I like the art as i love B+W art passionately but i find with Leigh Gallaghers art it lacks a certain kind of depth that makes the panels kind of flat looking.It very good art BUT it doesnt have that extra something that makes me want to just sit and stare at it and study it to see things i havent seen in it before.Its just a little too 2 dimensional and it doesnt draw my eye into it enough unfortunately.

As for Class in the UK it seems to me that whatever your background is its what you are defined by ultimately like school etc but at the same time you are defined by what your occupation is and how much you earn and what kind of house you live in which is just like the US but the UK has more of a kind of caste system which is fixed and a kind of snobbery.No matter what your background is you cant escape it.If you are a member of the landed gentry who is a binman you will forever be a toff emptying bins and exactly the same in reverse because a binman may have an extraordinary reversal of fortune and end up living in a private 100 acre estate for whatever reason but you will still be working class but with a lot of money.
Theres a lot to more to it than that though obviously.

I dont see it that the class system is irrelevent or has changed since 1977 because it is very much alive and well but its a question of where you choose to look for it but i admit that it has all become a little bit less defined or apparent in 2010 but there are plenty of reasons for that which i wont explore or explain here.


On the other hand i tend to think that anyone who has to work in return for an income is working class just to keep it simple.

[Mike Gloady]

Class is one of those issues, like race, that's only really apparent if you're on the rough end of it.  It's LESS of an isssue (like race) but it's STILL an issue. 

[Tweak72]

In fairness, it'd be hard (maybe even pointless) to write about the mid-17th century at all without reference to the huge political and social swings that make the period so interesting, so I think Mills should get a pass there.  I'm currently writing about that period myself (in a boring technical sense) and some of the clashes of ideas are astonishingly modern an relevant.

But that's exactly where it has all failed for me. There is no real mention of what has happened to the country. England recovering from Civil War then has to deal with a massive environmental catastrophe and sudden onslaught of the Zombie hordes. Three years later capital is still a smoking ruin and towns like Ipswich have not been overrun and eaten but it's OK because they not only suddenly invented rudimentary machine guns before the repeating rifle, built steam engines topping any advances the Victorians made in the whole first 25 years and done it in less than a half a decade (based on Steam tech from 1663). Oh and the Restoration happened because the Aristos are really flying Wizards.

TBH if similar things had happened now we would all have been Zombie food by now so how the hell would anyone in the mid 1600's survive is a bit of a stretch.

On the other hand i tend to think that anyone who has to work in return for an income is working class just to keep it simple.

That's exactly what I mean. The working class has become the middle class.

Class is one of those issues, like race, that's only really apparent if you're on the rough end of it.  It's LESS of an isssue (like race) but it's STILL an issue.

I disagree because the class system was a social/economic illusion created to control population however the rise of the standard of living, increase in numbers of the perceived 'middle' classes, continuing globalisation have rendered the class system irrelevant in first world countries and the up and coming economies such as India simply by swapping the class system for the "American" dream. Anyone can (and always could. Look at the 'middle' class rise during the industrial revolution) become part of the ruling elite if they work in the right sector such as international banking or selling shares. Clinging to an outmoded perception of class will only stop you from recognising the real situation and where the real social/economic now are. The same is true if you base it on race or religion. Classic divide and control. Pat Mills did touch on these issues brilliantly in Third World War but entertainingly disappeared up his own bum when he went over the top with the 9' lizar- I mean Newts in Finn.

[TordelBack]

...it doesnt explore the historical figures that were around at the time and their involvement in the esoteric and the Occult

Have to stop you right there Peter mate!  Did you see the guest list at Nonesuch House?   I'm not sure Pat could have shoehorned in more actual 17th C dodgy characters if he'd tried.  I spent a delightful evening googling the hell out of that one, and learnt a bucket-load of stuff I never knew.  And that's not even touching on all the major Enlightenment players we'd met so far...

The steam powered cars etc seem to me to be in the strip to make it more fantasy or sci fi or to make the strip more dynamic as if to suggest that the convential mode of transport at the time like horses and carriages are boring somehow

As to that, I definitely would have agreed with you about that at the end of Book I, but as things move along it's apparent that the technological craziness is as much a part of what's going on as the zombies, maybe more - the disaster of 1666 was a manmade by-product (and seed) of an occult arms race that's driving magic/science hybrids.  It's not unlike the reverse engineering of Martian tech in Edginton and D'Isrealie's Scarlet Traces.

And Mike:

Class is one of those issues, like race, that's only really apparent if you're on the rough end of it.

Well put!