Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 

Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 1323694 times)

Funt Solo

  • Member
  • Bionic Fingers
  • *****
  • Posts: 7316
  • Lorne: A Real Sausage!
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17415 on: 17 September, 2020, 01:50:59 AM »
They've always been here, sowing the seeds of dissent (and riboflavin)!

++ logos ++ stages ++ coma ++

The Legendary Shark

  • Member
  • Bionic Fingers
  • *****
  • Posts: 9803
  • Tip: Sharks only attack you if you're wet.
    • View Profile
    • The Sharkpool Blog
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17416 on: 17 September, 2020, 01:59:53 AM »

But, sadly, all we have is the ruin of last night's experimental pizza and some worryingly lumpy milk.

~~~^~~~~~~~

Be excellent to each other. And party on!

https://www.giffgaff.com/orders/affiliate/the_legendary_shark


Blog.

Hawkmumbler

  • Member
  • Bionic Fingers
  • *****
  • Posts: 8551
    • View Profile
    • http://hawkmonger.deviantart.com/
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17417 on: 17 September, 2020, 09:44:39 AM »

But, sadly, all we have is the ruin of last night's experimental pizza and some worryingly lumpy milk.

Oh I see you've bought Heston's new cook book too.

Rately

  • Member
  • Prog Stacking Droid
  • ***
  • Posts: 771
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17418 on: 17 September, 2020, 10:02:52 AM »
Dominic Raab accusing the EU of "threatening" the GFA.

They really have no shame. Morals. Principles.

To be honest, the quicker this shiteshow tips Scotland and Northern Ireland out of the Union, the better.

Jim_Campbell

  • 2000AD Creator
  • CALL-ME-KENNETH!
  • *****
  • Posts: 13218
  • Letterer to the Stars! (and PJ)
    • View Profile
    • deviantArt Gallery
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17419 on: 17 September, 2020, 10:07:51 AM »
Weetabix or Cornflakes, Labour? Cornabix, they replied.

Except that's not what they said. They said: "You voted for Brexit, but Boris Johnson's deal is self-evidently terrible. We'll negotiate a better one and you get to vote on whether you think it's good enough."

Given that Johnson's deal was so terrible that even he wants to tear it up, despite winning an election by telling people how great it was, that looks like an even more sensible position now than it did in 2019.

Sadly, even that relatively modest level of nuance can't compete with the new political reality, which is that people would rather accept easily-digested lies than a marginally more complicated truth.
Stupidly Busy Letterer: Samples. | Blog
Less-Awesome-Artist: Scribbles.

IndigoPrime

  • Administrator
  • Bionic Fingers
  • *****
  • Posts: 9584
    • View Profile
    • http://www.craiggrannell.com
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17420 on: 17 September, 2020, 10:09:20 AM »
It was so painful to see the election won/lost over one stupid three word fucking slogan
And an inability of the not-Tory parties to work together. It was bleedingly obvious from day one that BXP would cave and ultimately stand down in Tory seats. Most of the other parties got together, and Labour said nope. So a large number of seats were narrowly lost because Labour ate into the ‘others’ share and vice-versa. Labour, as ever, arrogantly refused to work with others because it should rule alone.

And the others needed a healthy dose of realism as well. The Lib Dems were shocking, thinking Swinson could be PM(!) and at their highest level predicting anything up to 200 seats. They also continued with their aggressive attacks on the SNP (to the bafflement of English Lib Dems) and Labour (because, hey, let’s fight them rather than the Tories). The Greens, even, were messing up, with WTF moments like Stroud. They should have stood down in Labour winnable seats and did not.

But this goes even further back. The IV era was a shitshow. The SNP put forward an idea to default to revoke, but Labour sat on its hands. Then the IVs happened and no-one could agree. Every single party—Labour; ‘rebellion’ Tory faction; LD; Green; TIG; SNP; Plaid—fucked up monumentally by not voting for as many alternatives as possible, to provide choices. It was all the excuse the government needed to continue down this path of shit.

Imagine the IVs were different. In the second round, the SNP backs the customs union as an option (and makes that clear). Seven MPs flip on the referendum vote, from SNP/Lab. TIG and LD flip on ‘Common Market 2.0’. All three of those votes were winnable. But all these parties screwed us by wanting ‘their’ thing rather than looking at broadly acceptable options.

I guess this is why we’re fucked long-term. This country cannot countenance the notion of grown-up modern politics. Most other countries don’t have ‘hung parliaments’. They have ‘parliaments’, where parties work together. They compromise. They reach consensus. They collaborate. Here, everything is always a fight, and it’s so fucking tiring and pointless. I hope—but won’t hold my breath—Starmer and Davey might figure out a way to work together in England, assuming they’re both still leaders in 2024. But even then, the only viable coalition is likely to make the SNP kingmakers. And if Labour and the Lib Dems still flat refuse to work with them (in part because the SNP will likely red-line indy2), then we’re back to stalemate at best, short of something radical happening in Scotland with Labour and England with both Labour and the Lib Dems.
« Last Edit: 17 September, 2020, 10:13:20 AM by IndigoPrime »

IndigoPrime

  • Administrator
  • Bionic Fingers
  • *****
  • Posts: 9584
    • View Profile
    • http://www.craiggrannell.com
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17421 on: 17 September, 2020, 10:16:09 AM »
Dominic Raab accusing the EU of "threatening" the GFA.
That video of him in committee doing the rounds today sums everything up. He’s asked whether he’s read the GFA. He blathers on for about two minutes, like a kid who’s not done his homework. What’s worse isn’t that he’s not read the GFA (although he talks about referring to it when necessary), but that he’s clearly not familiar with it. He mentions not taking it on holiday to read like a novel. Well, no, because the thing is 35 fucking pages long. You can read that over a breakfast. That he clearly wasn’t even aware of the document’s succinct nature is as damning as his failure to have read it.

This also explains an awful lot about the predicament we are currently in. Clearly, almost none of the people who voted for the WA actually bothered to read it.

Rately

  • Member
  • Prog Stacking Droid
  • ***
  • Posts: 771
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17422 on: 17 September, 2020, 10:30:12 AM »
Dominic Raab accusing the EU of "threatening" the GFA.
That video of him in committee doing the rounds today sums everything up. He’s asked whether he’s read the GFA. He blathers on for about two minutes, like a kid who’s not done his homework. What’s worse isn’t that he’s not read the GFA (although he talks about referring to it when necessary), but that he’s clearly not familiar with it. He mentions not taking it on holiday to read like a novel. Well, no, because the thing is 35 fucking pages long. You can read that over a breakfast. That he clearly wasn’t even aware of the document’s succinct nature is as damning as his failure to have read it.

This also explains an awful lot about the predicament we are currently in. Clearly, almost none of the people who voted for the WA actually bothered to read it.

He literally hasn't bothered his arse, and it just shows how craven these people are. He couldn't have gotten any of his numerous SPADs to draw up a quick summary of it? A summary of 35 pages? These really are the worst people, who have no idea of the damage and fear they generate with every thoughtless utterance. It just shows the utter contempt they have for NI, it just draws into focus the madness of the DUP, who claim to be defenders of the Union, marching along with the Tories towards God knows how serious of a mess they are going to make of NI.

Mind you, if things go as badly as i think they will, with Brexit on top of Covid spiralling into the Winter ahead, his only defence may be that he hadn't taken the time to read the GFA.

I can have all the respect and love in the world for my Unionist brethren in NI, but when i look at the party that represents them, the Tories who lied to their faces and stabbed them in the back, the continual subterfuge and mealy mouthed lies... it just doesn't compute that they still vote in the DUP to do everything but represent NI's best interests.

IndigoPrime

  • Administrator
  • Bionic Fingers
  • *****
  • Posts: 9584
    • View Profile
    • http://www.craiggrannell.com
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17423 on: 17 September, 2020, 10:36:35 AM »
The DUP’s stance has always baffled me. It was interesting that near the death of the last parliament, they at least seemed to recognise they were going to be royally fucked, and dramatically switched sides on some key votes (that without them would have been lost). But bloody hell. Throughout, they could have forced the Tories to create a situation where NI and the UK as a whole would have had a reasonably pragmatic Brexit. But no—they wanted to set fire to everything instead and bring back a hard border, the fucking lunatics.

Rately

  • Member
  • Prog Stacking Droid
  • ***
  • Posts: 771
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17424 on: 17 September, 2020, 10:49:15 AM »
The DUP’s stance has always baffled me. It was interesting that near the death of the last parliament, they at least seemed to recognise they were going to be royally fucked, and dramatically switched sides on some key votes (that without them would have been lost). But bloody hell. Throughout, they could have forced the Tories to create a situation where NI and the UK as a whole would have had a reasonably pragmatic Brexit. But no—they wanted to set fire to everything instead and bring back a hard border, the fucking lunatics.

They were offered a best of both worlds deal, and shat all over it. Demanded that no difference be made for NI, that we should all prosper, in truth suffer, along with rest of UK. I bet they would jump all over that deal now, seeing the way that the Tories have already started to sow the seeds of discontent in Mainland Press about the cost of NI. They may hope and wish for a hard border, but when it comes down to it, the Conservatives would cut them out of the Union without a moments hesitation. I just hope, that if a Border Poll becomes a reality, that people vote for their own betterment, not for the ideals of Green or Orange, enough with the supremacy politics.

The crazy thing, i voted for us to remain in EU, and if we had stayed in, the viability of a Border Poll was a generation or two away, now it seems possible that we will have one within the next few years.

IndigoPrime

  • Administrator
  • Bionic Fingers
  • *****
  • Posts: 9584
    • View Profile
    • http://www.craiggrannell.com
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17425 on: 17 September, 2020, 11:56:27 AM »
The Tories would ditch Scotland. I can’t imagine NI enters most of their thoughts for even the briefest second.

Professor Bear

  • Member
  • Bionic Fingers
  • *****
  • Posts: 7537
  • "Why, Black Dynamite? WHY?"
    • View Profile
    • Your Friends and Neighbors
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17426 on: 17 September, 2020, 12:02:35 PM »
Weetabix or Cornflakes, Labour? Cornabix, they replied.

Except that's not what they said. They said: "You voted for Brexit, but Boris Johnson's deal is self-evidently terrible. We'll negotiate a better one and you get to vote on whether you think it's good enough."

The idea there was any "choice" to be made is also a false dichotomy - much as I disliked the decision that was made in 2016, it was made and there was no "choice" on offer that was going to magic it or its attendant complications away.

IndigoPrime

  • Administrator
  • Bionic Fingers
  • *****
  • Posts: 9584
    • View Profile
    • http://www.craiggrannell.com
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17427 on: 17 September, 2020, 12:07:34 PM »
The problem remains that people were never given a choice in the conventional sense. When referendums are usually conducted, you get to choose between the status quo and a clearly defined alternative. Brexit was always a status quo versus a set of woolly and contradictory aspirations targeted at a coalition of voters. On that basis, I still believe there was a very short time during which damage could have been severely limited. But Labour’s own internal fights meant it could also never present a coherent ‘package’ that it would have backed, which would ultimately have had to have included single market membership as its foundation. (Natch, this was the mainstream Eurosceptic position for decades and the logical first port of call for a post-Brexit UK, but there you go. Everyone got so angry about those bloody EU/EEA migrants coming over here and “taking our jobs” that nothing else mattered. Boy, is everyone in for a fucking shock come January.)

Rately

  • Member
  • Prog Stacking Droid
  • ***
  • Posts: 771
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17428 on: 17 September, 2020, 02:16:14 PM »
The Tories would ditch Scotland. I can’t imagine NI enters most of their thoughts for even the briefest second.

Very true.

Not even an afterthought.

Funt Solo

  • Member
  • Bionic Fingers
  • *****
  • Posts: 7316
  • Lorne: A Real Sausage!
    • View Profile
Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17429 on: 17 September, 2020, 02:46:53 PM »
Weetabix or Cornflakes, Labour? Cornabix, they replied.

Except that's not what they said. They said: "You voted for Brexit, but Boris Johnson's deal is self-evidently terrible. We'll negotiate a better one and you get to vote on whether you think it's good enough."

It feels a bit like we're disagreeing about agreeing. The "vote on whether you think it's good enough" is where they were offering both Leave and Remain at the same time. That's the fence-sitting. That's the Cornabix. (Maybe I just like metaphors more than you.)

I'm not saying it wasn't nuanced. I'm not saying it wasn't actually the better offer. And we both came to the same conclusion - that the result was (is) a sad state of affairs.
++ logos ++ stages ++ coma ++