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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 1328472 times)

Professor Bear

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17400 on: 16 September, 2020, 01:32:03 PM »
Brexiteers also don't seem to have any problems with foreigners owning UK newspapers, football teams, tv and radio stations, trains and buses, most of London, and building the UK's nuclear power stations.  That they can't even do their own racism consistently isn't really a surprise, tho.

Professor Bear

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17401 on: 16 September, 2020, 03:08:59 PM »
Labour front bench now wants to "get Brexit done".

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IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17402 on: 16 September, 2020, 03:22:05 PM »
They’re holding Johnson’s feet to the fire. Johnson promised X, and so no deliver. They’re throwing all his shit back at him. Besides, it’s not like this is a shift from Labour’s position under Corbyn.

Dandontdare

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17403 on: 16 September, 2020, 06:00:22 PM »
Last year, I eventually gave up trying to get Brexiteers to explain how we could have no border with Eire, no border in the Irish Sea, and yet take back control of our borders. The contradictory cast-iron guarantees are coming home to roost and I'm still curious how this magic is supposed to happen.

Leigh S

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17404 on: 16 September, 2020, 06:09:53 PM »
The only difference being that this position (held by Starmer under Corbyn) is no longer a sign that you are unfit to lead the Party.


They’re holding Johnson’s feet to the fire. Johnson promised X, and so no deliver. They’re throwing all his shit back at him. Besides, it’s not like this is a shift from Labour’s position under Corbyn.

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17405 on: 16 September, 2020, 06:21:28 PM »
Last year, I eventually gave up trying to get Brexiteers to explain how we could have no border with Eire, no border in the Irish Sea, and yet take back control of our borders. The contradictory cast-iron guarantees are coming home to roost and I'm still curious how this magic is supposed to happen.
They also seem quite happy with no borders for goods, primarily because they’ve realised a border means we’re basically fucked and will have no manufacturing sector and massive food shortages. Well done, everyone!

The only difference being that this position (held by Starmer under Corbyn) is no longer a sign that you are unfit to lead the Party.
Not really. Under Corbyn, Labour’s Brexit position was contradictory and incoherent, as I’m sure would be detailed in that new Left Out book. Under Starmer, Brexit has already happened. “Go on, then—do what you promised, you blithering goon” is a perfectly reasonable position for Labour to take right now, although Starmer will have to pivot at speed once no-deal comes roaring towards us. Corbyn’s “get Brexit done” started basically immediately when he demanded article 50 be sent. (As DAG has noted on Twitter, no sane government would EVER have done that.)

Professor Bear

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17406 on: 16 September, 2020, 06:50:09 PM »
The only difference being that this position (held by Starmer under Corbyn) is no longer a sign that you are unfit to lead the Party.

Ken Stormer was a pretty hardcore "Remoaner" - inasmuch as someone with so little charisma can be hardcore anything - while under Corbyn, so this is still an about-face no matter how much the Starmtroopers try to spin it as some kind of consistent strategy.

Leigh S

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17407 on: 16 September, 2020, 07:43:57 PM »
well, it has shifted or it hasn't.  You could argue that the incoherent, vague dodging of the 2017 election reaped much better results than the much more specific (some would say complex, but it was only complex for thickoes) 2019 Brexit stance that I understand Corbyn was sceptical of (being the massive Brexiteer that he was, natch), but was foisted on him by his then Brexit secretary - at least THAT guy is no longer around to cause any more problems...

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17408 on: 16 September, 2020, 09:15:59 PM »
I always understood Labour's Brexit stance to be one of having their cake and eating it, or of fence-sitting in a vain attempt to appeal to everyone.

The problem was that there was (is) a majority in England who want fewer furrinas messing up their green and pleasant land. Thus Boris and his gang.

A hard pill to swallow, but there it is.
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TordelBack

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17409 on: 16 September, 2020, 09:47:59 PM »
The problem was that there was (is) a majority in England who want fewer furrinas messing up their green and pleasant land. Thus Boris and his gang?

As a far wiser man than I said, it's not that Leave voters are racists, it's that all the racists are Leave voters.

Jim_Campbell

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17410 on: 16 September, 2020, 09:56:00 PM »
I always understood Labour's Brexit stance to be one of having their cake and eating it, or of fence-sitting in a vain attempt to appeal to everyone.

This is ludicrously simplistic. At its core, the problem is this: Conservative supporters split about 75/25 Leave/Remain. That meant the Tories could go all in on Brexit and abandon that 25%, figuring they’d pick up a good chunk of UKIP/Brexit Party support in compensation. Labour support splits 35/65 Leave/Remain — too many Leavers to just write off, because they wouldn’t pick up disaffected Tory Remainers if they moved to a hard Remain position, but obviously if they moved to a hard Leave position then two-thirds of their support would evaporate.

Corbyn, Starmer, whoever was leader, there was no squaring that circle. Depressingly, the party’s 2019 position was perfectly sensible, but it turns out Labour Leave voters would rather have a Conservative government than risk their precious Brexit.
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Professor Bear

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17411 on: 16 September, 2020, 10:41:15 PM »
There's also that even with all that was at stake, we still couldn't get X million people to actually get off their fucking arses to go and vote.  I mean, the Tories even got dead people to vote for them, and we can't even rouse the living.

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17412 on: 16 September, 2020, 11:15:07 PM »
I always understood Labour's Brexit stance to be one of having their cake and eating it, or of fence-sitting in a vain attempt to appeal to everyone.

This is ludicrously simplistic. At its core, the problem is this: Conservative supporters split about 75/25 Leave/Remain. That meant the Tories could go all in on Brexit and abandon that 25%, figuring they’d pick up a good chunk of UKIP/Brexit Party support in compensation. Labour support splits 35/65 Leave/Remain — too many Leavers to just write off, because they wouldn’t pick up disaffected Tory Remainers if they moved to a hard Remain position, but obviously if they moved to a hard Leave position then two-thirds of their support would evaporate.

Corbyn, Starmer, whoever was leader, there was no squaring that circle. Depressingly, the party’s 2019 position was perfectly sensible, but it turns out Labour Leave voters would rather have a Conservative government than risk their precious Brexit.

This is stupendously long-winded says the same thing but with more words. It was an election fought on a single issue - and Labour didn't have the integrity to tell us what they thought was right between two choices.

Weetabix or Cornflakes, Labour? Cornabix, they replied.
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shaolin_monkey

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17413 on: 16 September, 2020, 11:59:04 PM »
It was so painful to see the election won/lost over one stupid three word fucking slogan when that Labour manifesto could have pulled so many people out of grinding poverty, kickstarted their first steps towards a green revolution, etc etc etc blah blah blah.

Three words repeated over and over, combined with a the huge right wing media propaganda machine. That’s all it took to ruin us, probably for decades.

Dandontdare

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #17414 on: 17 September, 2020, 12:20:15 AM »
Weetabix or Cornflakes, Labour? Cornabix, they replied.

This is just blatant factionalism by disaffected Weetflakista agitators