Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace

[JOE SOAP]

I really don't understand why "the good guy turns evil" is a problem for a Star Wars or any other film, sounds more like a conditioned attitude than true.

There are certain types of story and character arcs which are 'classic' and pretty universal across all cultures in the world because they strike a chord more than others. If you were being uncharitable you might call them 'cliches'... but nonetheless the majority of good stories stick with them, because they work. The origins SW trilogy certainly did. "The good guy turns evil", as a conclusion (rather than a 'middle of story' element), isn't one of them.

Are you sure about that?, fall from grace is a fairly classic/cliched trope in stories, can't get much more universal than reversal of fortune or realising that something you thought was one thing was another, the two pillars of ancient storytelling. Everyone loves a tragedy, especially the Greeks.

If you take all six films a whole, arguably it has been used as a 'middle of story' element... but as I said, I think the arc of the prequels really needs to stand alone, particularly as Darth Vader, important as he is, is hardly the focus of the original trilogy.

This is because the supporting characters have failed/insubstantial stories in the prequels too, not because Anakin a prominent character who turns to the dark side, as we know.

To take something like that which isn't a classic story arc and structures and make it work really takes true genius. Most modern storytellers are consciously aware of all this because in the modern world it's been extensively analysed and written about. For George Lucas to attempt it he was overestimating his abilities a tad.

It doesn't take, a genius, just a good writer who is at least trying to do great stuff and as I said earlier Lucas was always the problem.

[Mark Taylor]

Ewoks were awesome*,

Ewoks are okay. Not sure about awesome but they sure beat the Gungans who are just downright sickeningly crap.

[Mark Taylor]

This is because the supporting characters have failed/insubstantial stories in the prequels too, not because Anakin a prominent character turns to the dark side as we know.

Yes, as I said in my original post which sparked this whole sub-debate, Anakin is the main protagonist (not just a prominent character) and that is a problem.

[JOE SOAP]

This is because the supporting characters have failed/insubstantial stories in the prequels too, not because Anakin a prominent character turns to the dark side as we know.

Yes, as I said in my original post which sparked this whole sub-debate, Anakin is the main protagonist (not just a prominent character) and that is a problem.

There is still nothing wrong with him being the protagonist who drives the story which is supposed to be a classic fall from grace, it's that nothing else backs that story up, not the structure nor the other characters. Once you can convince the audience and can compel them they will except the conclusion of Anakin's turning and the saving of the twins which is the bridge. An audience liking a bad ending to the protagonist -which I don;t believe they did- is not a story problem if it works for the story which I don't see why it couldn't in Star Wars which is my point.

[Mark Taylor]

Are you sure about that?

Yup, pretty confident given then we are talking about a) the main protagonist in a story and b) a fully fleshed out story told in over six hours of visual detail, not a simple proverb or morality tale (where we don't really have time to relate to the characters, we just learn lessons from them).

[JOE SOAP]

Are you sure about that?

Yup, pretty confident given then we are talking about a) the main protagonist in a story and b) a fully fleshed out story told in over six hours of visual detail, not a simple proverb or morality tale (where we don't really have time to relate to the characters, we just learn lessons from them).

So are you saying I'm correct then that fall from grace -and eventual redemption- is a classic story type?

I still don't see why an attitude of a certain portion of an audience preferring a "happier ending" is reason to steer a story -all ready half told- in the wrong direction.

The prequels could have been written either way, Anakin in them a lot less or a lot more, but with Lucas neither would be done well.

[Mark Taylor]

So are you saying I'm correct then that fall from grace -and eventual redemption- is a classic story type?

Certainly, but for the eventual redemption you have to lean on the original trilogy, which I don't think was a good idea. The original trilogy stood alone, it din't need the prequels. The prequel trilogy should stand alone too, if only because an audience who has seen the original trilogy 30 times before shouldn't have to watch it again for the prequels to make a good story.

[JOE SOAP]

So are you saying I'm correct then that fall from grace -and eventual redemption- is a classic story type?

Certainly, but for the eventual redemption you have to lean on the original trilogy, which I don't think was a good idea. The original trilogy stood alone, it din't need the prequels. The prequel trilogy should stand alone too, if only because an audience who has seen the original trilogy 30 times before shouldn't have to watch it again for the prequels to make a good story.

Why should the prequels stand alone in a six episode story? I would be more of the opinion that each episode should stand alone as a good film as the OT eps do. It was always going to be a continuing story and marketed as such. It doesn't really make much sense to break a six part story in the middle with a conclusion of sorts.

[I, Cosh]

Nonetheless, I think most people prefer upbeat endings, and in general they sell better.

Yet Empire is almost universally preferred to Star Wars.

[JOE SOAP]

Nonetheless, I think most people prefer upbeat endings, and in general they sell better.

Yet Empire is almost universally preferred to Star Wars.

The one thing that always scupperred the Lucas argument.

[I, Cosh]

So are you saying I'm correct then that fall from grace -and eventual redemption- is a classic story type?

Certainly, but for the eventual redemption you have to lean on the original trilogy, which I don't think was a good idea. The original trilogy stood alone, it din't need the prequels. The prequel trilogy should stand alone too, if only because an audience who has seen the original trilogy 30 times before shouldn't have to watch it again for the prequels to make a good story.

Why should the prequels stand alone in a six episode story? I would be more of the opinion that each episode should stand alone as a good film as the OT eps do. It was always going to be a continuing story and marketed as such. It doesn't really make much sense to break a six part story in the middle with a conclusion of sorts.

I had always understood to it to be a nine part story. So it's already broken with the conclusion of RotJ.

[Mark Taylor]

It doesn't really make much sense to break a six part story in the middle with a conclusion of sorts.

Why on earth not. The original trilogy did not lack a 'beginning of sorts' or it wouldn't have stood along. Luke's story is very much a 'new beginning'. The episode's title 'A New Hope' even says it explicitly. It makes total sense for a new beginning to follow a previous conclusion.

[JOE SOAP]

I had always understood to it to be a nine part story. So it's already broken with the conclusion of RotJ.

The killing of the emperor was suppose to happen in ep. 9 originally and only Vader die in ep. 6 though the rumblings filtering out from within Lucasfilm suggest work on ep 7-9 has always gone on.

[Mark Taylor]

Nonetheless, I think most people prefer upbeat endings, and in general they sell better.

Yet Empire is almost universally preferred to Star Wars.

Are you saying the ending of Empire isn't upbeat? They escaped Darth Vader's trap! Okay so Han is taken prisoner by Jabba, and Luke has to deal with the fact that Vader's his father. Big deal... they still got almost clean away from a trap which should have destroyed them utterly. They survived their darkest hour almost completely intact. Pretty upbeat ending if you ask me.

[Mark Taylor]

Post deleted, ignore.