“Truth? You can't handle the truth!”

[Emperor]

So if 2000 AD goes completely online and people start to download it from an illegal free place on the web, forcing it out of business, then that's okay 

People are already illegally downloading 2000AD - the question would be if they be buying the prog in the first place, if it tempts them into picking up their favourite stories in trade form and if it actually got them buying the prog on a regular basis. Unfortunately, it'd be impossible to quantify and I doubt anyone would turn up here and say "I was downloading it but it got me hooked and I had to subscribe"

It might suggest that adding a number of extras to trades could help shift extra copies (like DVD extras), but then that could add to the price which might inhibit sales...

The only upside is that 2000AD is suitably obscure and with a hardcore fanbase that it probably doesn't make a huge dent in the bottom line (I suspect the Big Two are really hurt by it), unfortunately it is the smaller companies that get hurt the most by online piracy, so any loss of readers is potentially a big problem.

[Emperor]

This whole idea approaches the piracy "problem" from completely the wrong angle - from an accountancy angle. What the entertainment companies should do is turn the "problem" over to creative people and not bean counters. Ideas off the top of my head include posting free to download DVD rips to sites like Pirate Bay but include a couple of ad-breaks in the movie just like you get on TV, or post edited versions with discount codes so that genuine DVDs can be ordered at discount, or include a number of free DVD rip downloads with every cake of blank DVDs purchased - DIY DVDs would save the companies millions in manufacturing costs! I'm sure there are far cleverer people who could come up with far better ideas. Even charging $1 for a DVD rip would generate some income for the companies involved and cost very little to set up. I'm sure the folks on this very forum could come up with even better ideas than mine.

I do think the eventual result will be to monetise this whole area, with something like a YouTube model which would largely cut the pirates off at the knee. Unfortunately, it does rely heavily on ads and that can be dependant on the economic climate - I doubt ad-supported models look quite so attractive at the moment, although people are still doing quite nicely on YouTube at the moment. Perhaps the answer might be a fixed fee for unlimited access (like Marvel's service or Netflix UK that launched this week) or restricted access (like LoveFilm offering you a range of subscriptions), but once you start charging people start turning towards the illegal downloads.

[TordelBack]

So if 2000 AD goes completely online and people start to download it from an illegal free place on the web, forcing it out of business, then that's okay 

That's the thing though, CF - I had a horrid financially-enforced break from 1749 to Prog 2012, and every week I was aware that I could get my fix digitally, for free, before I'd normally even have been able to get it from the shops.  I didn't succumb, because it would have been Wrong, but SOPA wouldn't be able to do a thing about that availability.  As it is half the WiFi places I log on from already block the major torrent sites, but it just takes a tiny bit of vpn fiddling or proxy software to circumvent (e.g http://www.maclife.com/article/howtos/how_use_tor_access_blocked_sites_work_and_school) . 

What SOPA would do (if extended to these jurisdictions) would be to make places like this forum legal minefields that no sane company (or Rebellion) could risk being associated with - it would punish the good folk of the internet, and mean nothing to the bad, except to give them further so-called moral justification. 

[Tiplodocus]

Well SOPA does sound pretty bad when you put it like that. 

I sometimes feel I am genuinely alone in that  If somebody makes something that I quite want, I buy it.  Or I wait until it comes on the telly. Just because I can get it for free, I don't.  I'm a digital prog man now and I buy it through the proper channels. even though that means I''m six weeks behind  the paper prog.

And sure, film companies might not need the money. And Tom Cruise won't starve because I rip MI4.  But all those people laid off at the Odeon, the DVD store and the comic publisher that folds because of a  5-10% drop in income caused by piracy do.

[TordelBack]

  But all those people laid off at the Odeon, the DVD store and the comic publisher that folds because of a  5-10% drop in income caused by piracy do.

I don't think you're remotely alone there, and there's no denying (some of) those consequences, but it does come down to how you tackle the problem, faced with relatively cheaply available technology that effectively replicates the DVD rental experience for free, but throws in no return date, no ads or FACT warnings, infinite availability and no parking issues - and I'd be fairly sure that this isn't it, for the simple reason that it won't.

[The Legendary Shark]

When one thinks about the polycarbonate plastic (yet another oil-based plastic) used in CD and DVD production, the time they take to break down and release toxins in landfill or drift out to sea to choke the fish, the energy involved in manufacturing,  the fuel needed for transportation and the inefficiency of recycling (which, like most recycling processes should more honestly be called downcycling) etc. - it could be argued that music and movie piracy is actually good for the environment...

[Tiplodocus]

it could be argued that music and movie piracy is actually good for the environment

No, I think you'll find that digital distribution is good for the environment. 

And yes, that will have an effect on the Odeon and DVD shop staff as well, but my point was about the loss of income due to piracy, not other factors.

[SpetsnaZ99]

Piracy of movies and such has been around for years, it was even possible to buy copied VHS, CD's or DVD's from car boot sales many years ago. I personally think a big reason for online piracy is that many people have become hacked off or disenchanted with the volume of crap movies that appear at the cinema that do not live up to the trailers or the promotion of junk music over the top of real talent. Next time your in town look around at the number of shops closing down citing main reasons such as online shopping as the problem. The internet is the real problem not piracy. Im hoping that this year someone will organize and file a class action lawsuit against the actual movie industry.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

The BPI claims albums sales are dropping year on year because of illegal downloading. The BPI. That's the British PHONOGRAPH Industry. Clearly they fear all this new-fangled technology.

I remember taping music off the radio. That Involved a bit of skill and effort, because ye had to stop the recording before the DJ started their gormless blabbering. These kids who just click on something and download it, they don't know they're born so they don't.

[Cyberleader2000]

just a interesting thing I wanted to add to the SOPA talkes have any of you seen theas vids they shead some realy interesting fackits onto the whole thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJIuYgIvKsc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzS5rSvZXe8

[JOE SOAP]

just a interesting thing I wanted to add to the SOPA talkes have any of you seen theas vids they shead some realy interesting fackits onto the whole thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJIuYgIvKsc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzS5rSvZXe8

What an annoying prick; whatever he's saying, it's hard to listen to when constantly shouted at. As you say, Fackit.

[The Legendary Shark]

just a interesting thing I wanted to add to the SOPA talkes have any of you seen theas vids they shead some realy interesting fackits onto the whole thing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJIuYgIvKsc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzS5rSvZXe8

Thanks for that, some food for thought there.

I think that one of the biggest problems the corporate world (not just the entertainment and software corporations) have with the internet is that they don't quite know how to own it or add it to the ever-growing list of Things That Must Be Monetized. In the past, a corporation could move in and open a coal mine somewhere and use their profits to defend it because it was an actual physical thing. The internet exists, surely, but at the same time it doesn't really exist at all. It's a conundrum for them.

Most corporations operate unsustainable linear systems (for an explanation of the fundamental flaws of the current system, see the excellent 21 minute documentary The Story of Stuff) which are based on actual physical resources. In theory, then, the internet is perfect for them because a single item can be distributed virtually infinitely. An .avi file can be downloaded millions of times but a lump of coal can only be used once. I think this is the realisation that's driving them mad and they're desperate to either profit from or stop it.

Governments don't like the internet because it means anyone can do research and come to their own conclusions about whether their policies or claims are beneficial or truthful or not. Widespread communication and access to information undermines governments' usefulness and gives actual people the opportunity to sort their own problems out without having to go cap-in-hand to Lord Devlin Rockerchild or Prime Minister Connalot. Information is power and they don't have the monopoly on that any more so they have to use other means to maintain their control - which recently has been the artificially engineered financial crisis (heh, you just knew I was going to get that in somewhere, didn't you?).

The internet can't be annexed with guns or tanks and there isn't a big red Kill Switch somewhere, so they have to resort to other means like these SOPA and PIPA monstrosities. Make no mistake, this row is not about piracy any more than the war in Iraq is about liberating the Iraqi people. It's about control, pure and simple.

A Brief History of Humanity

"You can't use oxen to plough fields! How will I earn a living?"
"Screw you! I want my profits! Learn to yoke oxen or bugger off and do something else!"

"You can't use tractors for farm work! How will me and my horse earn a living?"
"Screw you! I want my profits! Learn to drive a tractor or bugger off and do something else! If you get hungry, you can eat your damned horse!"

"You can't use robots to build tractors! How will I earn a living?"
"Screw you! I want my profits! Learn to operate a robot or bugger off and do something else!"

"You can't use a printing press to make books! How will I earn a living?"
"Screw you! I want my profits! Learn to work the press or bugger off and do something else!"

"You can't use radio to entertain the masses! How will I earn a living?"
"Screw you! I want my profits! Learn to talk into a microphone or bugger off and do something else!"

"You can't export my job overseas! How will I earn a living?"
"Screw you! I want my profits! Emigrate or bugger off and do something else!"

Now, however, the boot is on the other foot...

"You can't use the internet to distribute stuff for free! How will I make my profits?"
"Screw you! I want my freebies! Learn to use the net or bugger off and do something else!"

And it's about bloody time, if you ask me.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Have you heard of the Missionary Church of Kopimism?

[The Legendary Shark]

Have you heard of the Missionary Church of Kopimism?

Heh, that's cute.

In a minor instance of synchronicity I was reading the Bible the other day, specifically Proverbs, and noticed that there's a lot in there along the lines of knowledge being more important than gold or silver. The link you just posted and this Intellectual Property thing made me realise something.

If it wasn't for Intellectual Property Infringement, humanity wouldn't have got anywhere.

As an example, let's imagine that it's silly-ago BC and Dogface Niptwanger the caveman has just invented the flint knife. He's very happy with it because it's the most useful tool he's ever discovered. What would Dogface do if his neighbour, Catarse Bumslapper, copied his idea? Demand payment? Kill Catfarse? Lock him up? I doubt it, because two people with flint knives can do a lot more for his tribe than just one. The copying spreads, to the betterment of not just his tribe but all the surrounding tribes. Furthermore, Catfarse may even improve the technology by adding a bone handle, finding a better way to sharpen flint or even pointing out that there are large quantities of flint over by Angrygod Mountain just lying around on the floor. 

How about if Dogface visits Wormdick Hamstergreaser in another village and hears a particularly lovely song or a story that properly explains how to avoid tigers in an insightful and easy to understand way - would Dogface be penalized for copying this story and telling it to his own tribe? Upon hearing this copied story, Rabbitfondler the Bard might easily adapt it to teach the children of the tribe about avoiding bears, bees and belligerent badgers.

In modern times, an artist or writer might get an idea for his best work ever after being inspired by the content of an illegally copied movie, book, painting or song. A software student might invent the Best Graphics Program Ever after fiddling with an illegal copy of Photoshop. A poor engineer might come up with an engine that runs on water after illegally tampering with a patented carburettor.

Without copying, then, we'd still all be living in caves and carving up uncooked antelopes with our teeth. Maybe Kopimism is the way to go, after all!

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Let's say Dogface visits the Village of Lambrape Shiteguzzler and they bludgeon him to death with clubs. Then they follow his tracks back to his village. Luckily Catarse Bumslapper has refined Dogface's flint knapping method, and now the tribe has spears and bows.

There's a bloodbath, but the Bumslappers come out on top. It's good thing Dogface didn't share his knowledge.

Knowledge is a deadly friend
When no one sets the rules
The fate of all mankind, I see
Is in the hands of fools

I chuffing love King Crimson