“Truth? You can't handle the truth!”

[JayzusB.Christ]

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"Individuals and institutions that are allowed to prioritize personal preference or financial and political gain ahead of children's health are irresponsible and unethical, and they should not call the shots."
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Which means that we have to keep an eye on stuff like this:
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Outbreak of Measles Among Persons With Prior Evidence of Immunity, New York City, 2011
(Jennifer B. Rosen et al).

There's a huge jump from a vaccination not doing its job properly (which I agree should be taken very seriously, and looked into) to a vaccination causing autism. 

You said earlier, Sharky, something about entertaining ideas without necessarily accepting them.  While I entertained anti-vaxxer scare stories, when I looked into them I found that I couldn't accept them because they've been rubbished.  I'll entertain any idea, from alien abductions to psychic powers, but I won't accept them till the evidence points to their being the most believable option.  And it doesn't; it really doesn't.

I remember saying on another thread that I thought you were a very nice chap, and I still think so.  I also appreciate the fact that sometimes a lone dissenter can be a great thing - just ask Galileo.  But my strong belief is that anti-vaccination sentiment is not only provably wrong but also provably harmful, and on a mass scale at that. 

As I said, I appreciated your straight answer earlier; so here are two more, if you don't mind me asking: Firstly, are you vaccinated against any diseases yourself, and secondly, if you had kids would you have them vaccinated against diseases?

(For me, while I don't have kids either, it's an emphatic 'YES' on both scores.)

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Sort it out, America.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2015/02/anti-vaxxer-spokane-official-says-tinfoil-hat-wearing-folks-deserve-representation-too/

Every time this particular subject comes up, people are talking about the tinfoil hat-wearing folks, etcetera and so forth," he explained. "But these people have a valid concern.

No. No they really don't...

I remember reading an article about how news of Climate change wrongly gives parity to both sides of the argument. Roughly 97% of scientists agree that it is a real thing and largely our fault. So for reporting accuracy, every time they air one view of a denier, they should should air 32-33 counter arguments.

[TordelBack]

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"Individuals and institutions that are allowed to prioritize personal preference or financial and political gain ahead of children's health are irresponsible and unethical, and they should not call the shots."
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Which means that we have to keep an eye on stuff like this:
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Outbreak of Measles Among Persons With Prior Evidence of Immunity, New York City, 2011
(Jennifer B. Rosen et al).

There's a huge jump from a vaccination not doing its job properly (which I agree should be taken very seriously, and looked into) to a vaccination causing autism. 

Okay, so I only read the abstract of that article, but surely what it mainly does is highlight how essential vaccination is?

Vaccination works to eliminate the disease from a population - as was done with smallpox - through almost total immunisation, to the point where there is no way for anyone to get infected because there's nobody to transmit it.  This is herd immunity, the magic behind the whole thing.Vaccination doesn't protect individuals, it protects populations.  As long as a disease is present, people WILL be infected - potentially including some who are vaccinated, but also those who are of necessity excluded from the programme, or with compromised immune systems.  From the abstract I take it that this had not previously happened in individuals with double vaccinations - but had 'everyone' been immunised, it couldn't have happened AT ALL, because there would been no place for measles to come from - as happened with smallpox.  It's probably a symptom of declining take-up of vaccination, not flaws in the programme itself.

Obviously we should always strive for continual improvement, for perfection, and be wary of emerging problems.  But that isn't  a reason not to participate in ensuring the success of vaccination, in fact it's the very opposite.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

I was about to type a big long rant, then I realised what I was doing.

Basically, what is so terrible about autism that you should risk a child's life to avoid it?

[Hawkmumbler]

I was about to type a big long rant, then I realised what I was doing.

Basically, what is so terrible about autism that you should risk a child's life to avoid it?

Ding ding! Someone said it!

[Dandontdare]

I cam only quote Philomena Cunk:
"climate change - an issue that has divided the world of science right down the middle, 90-10"

[Frank]

Basically, what is so terrible about autism that you should risk a child's life to avoid it?

My thoughts exactly. The NHS's own estimate is that one in every hundred Britons is somewhere on the autism spectrum.

You only have to use your everyday experience and common sense to realise that the vast majority of those people are living ordinary lives which mean most people they meet have no idea they're talking to someone who knows everything there is to know about WWII aircraft and feels uncomfortable in social situations.

I'd imagine most folk on this board (including the Shark) lie somewhere on that spectrum. Obviously there are serious physical and mental health consequences for the small number of people at the extreme end of that spectrum, but that brings us back to the tiny potential link to autism versus the certain and terrible consequences of measles.

[TordelBack]

I agree with the sentiment, with the slight caveat that some forms of autism are very difficult for individual and family, but I'd mainly deem it irrelevant because THERE IS NO LINK WITH AUTISM. You might as well ask what is so terrible about the potential risk of developing freckles that you should risk a child's life to avoid it? Show me a connection and I'll weigh the risks. Until then...

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

I agree with the sentiment, with the slight caveat that some forms of autism are very difficult for individual and family, but I'd mainly deem it irrelevant because THERE IS NO LINK WITH AUTISM... Show me a connection and I'll weigh the risks. Until then...

Yes, of course, I planned to include words to that effect in the rant I didn't start, and finished with:

The world has great faith in vaccines.

Faith is irrelevant when you have evidence

[JayzusB.Christ]

Snigger.

http://www.lamebook.com/perfect/

[Jim_Campbell]

Show me a connection and I'll weigh the risks. Until then...

Quite. Pretty much the whole anti-vaccination nonsense can be refuted by the observations that correlation does not equal causation, and that the plural of anecdote is not data.

You might as well assert that because 100% of people breathe oxygen, and 100% of people die, oxygen is clearly a deadly poison. And, of course, in certain concentrations, oxygen has proven toxic effects. Can you prove that everyone everywhere throughout the whole of history wasn't actually killed by their exposure to this dangerous chemical? My god, mix it with hydrogen and people can actually drown in the stuff! What more proof do you need?!

Cheers

Jim

[Richmond Clements]

Show me a connection and I'll weigh the risks. Until then...

Quite. Pretty much the whole anti-vaccination nonsense can be refuted by the observations that correlation does not equal causation, and that the plural of anecdote is not data.

You might as well assert that because 100% of people breathe oxygen, and 100% of people die, oxygen is clearly a deadly poison. And, of course, in certain concentrations, oxygen has proven toxic effects. Can you prove that everyone everywhere throughout the whole of history wasn't actually killed by their exposure to this dangerous chemical? My god, mix it with hydrogen and people can actually drown in the stuff! What more proof do you need?!

Cheers

Jim

http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

[The Legendary Shark]

JBC - to answer your first question; yes, I have been vaccinated.
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To answer your second question - yes and no. I would employ the minimum number of vaccinations and not allow any at all in my hypothetical infant.
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Countries have different vaccination requirements and those giving their infants the most vaccinations tend to have the highest instances of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS). The paper, Infant mortality rates regressed against
number of vaccine doses routinely given: Is
there a biochemical or synergistic toxicity?
(Neil Z Miller and Gary S Goldman), points out that access to adequate nutrition, clean water, effective sanitation and access to healthcare are at least as or more important than vaccines at preventing child deaths. (The United States requires more vaccinations than any other country and yet 33 countries have better infant mortality rates.)
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The inference is that over-vaccination is harmful. Sometimes, less really is more.
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Prof C - the paper linked to describes how Patient Zero, or "Measles Mary," was the source of a measles outbreak despite having already been immunised twice against the disease. Several of those she infected had also received two measles vaccinations. Link that with the study I posted to earlier reporting that of 54 Texas high school students contracting measles, 53 had been vaccinated and questions begin to arise about the efficacy and/or longevity of some vaccinations.
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Measles is a disease with no known cure except the human immune system and, although unpleasant, in countries like the UK, chances of death from complications brought on by measles is about 1 in 5,000. In poorer countries with limited access to proper nutrition, clean water, sanitation and access to healthcare, the mortality rate is around 10%.
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Logically speaking, improving living conditions is more important than vaccinations (at least in the case of measles) but of course that would be far more expensive than a vaccination program. There's no point expecting people to live perfectly happily in open sewers just because they've been vaccinated.
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I think vaccinations are important but we put too much faith in them. We are in danger of over-vaccinating ourselves and of letting the existence of a global vaccination program blind us to the fact that standards of living have to be raised as well.
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KP - let me turn that question back on you: What's so terrible about measles that you'd risk SIDS to avoid it?
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[Richmond Clements]

The World Health Organization disagrees.
http://www.who.int/features/qa/84/en/

[Hawkmumbler]

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KP - let me turn that question back on you: What's so terrible about measles that you'd risk SIDS to avoid it?
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What.The.Actual.FUCK?!