Osama Bin Laden Dead!

[locustsofdeath!]

But who was really terrified?

Strongholds like that are very possible in the mountains of Afghanistan; they're riddled with tunnels.

I think many are missing the fact that Bin Laden as he was a few days ago was a man not in control of anything anymore. If he was masterminding nefarious schemes, he would have been hidden in a stronghold of some sort. I think he was "retired" from terrorism and living out his days.

And I just have to comment that Conspiracy Theorists are doing exactly what they accuse the government of doing - trying to scare the populace into becoming government-fearing paranoids, constantly looking over their shoulders for "Big Brother". Very few Conspiracy Theorists have actually done field research, very few are experts in the fields they try to cover. Many are fed misinformation or rely on second-hand information. Seems less reliable than what the government gives us, imo.

Are governments truthful? Nope. Are we ever going to know half the shit that goes on? Nope, and probably we shouldn't.

As far as books go, I'd take "Behold A Pale Horse", and that's about it.

[The Legendary Shark]

I refuse to fear my government. No population should fear its government - it's the government that should fear the people.

As far as being called a "conspiracy theorist" (whatever that actually means) goes, I really don't mind at all. It's like being called a fool or an idiot; you either let it upset you or you don't, and I don't. Besides, I'd rather be one of those than a Coincidence Theorist (one of those people who thinks that every inconsistency in every event is just a coincidence because it's too horrid to even contemplate the alternatives).

The trick is in knowing what's a coincidence and what isn't. This is a very hard thing to do and nobody, but nobody, can get it right all the time. Not even me

[locustsofdeath!]

(these comments, and my previous comments, aren't directed specifically at you, Shark, unless you'd like them to be, of course  )

Every "coincidence" should be taken with an extreme amount of skepticism.

I am an incredible skeptic. I'll believe anything - if it can be proved.

Did the US Government take down the WTC? Not until it can proven without a doubt. Conspiracy Theories - or Conspiracy Accusations - should be a form of science, and backed with factual evidence. There should be actual field work done, scientific analysis by experts. There is too much second-hand information, too much downright unreliable information and, to be frank, too much opinion masquerading as fact baked into the Conspiracy or Coincidence cookie for my liking.

This way of thinking is fear-mongering. Maybe you don't personally do that, but others do. If everyone went around thinking that their country brought down skyscrapers full of citizens, as Conspira...Coincidence Theorists would like them too, how would a State not be full of paranoids? But if it's true - and it can be proven - proven without a doubt, sure, then put it out there. But until it's proven, let's keep on researching it rather than throwing speculation on the internet for others to half-read and regurgitate as fact. Misinformation is far worse than no information.

Should a Government be honest to its people? NO. No, no, no. For many reasons, security being number one...sure you might want to know all the goings on, but really, a sensible person realizes that there's no way that can happen.

[Hoagy]

It was a kill op. They went in with the intention to kill. A woman used herself as a shield. Another deluded follower giving their life for the meat-hook.

The objective was to kill the man. The SAS officer, stood there and told me.If he's got the idea of it , then its good enough for me.

[I, Cosh]

I accidentally came up with a conspiracy theory about this at work today.

Remember a couple of years ago when nobody had heard anything from Osama for a while and folk started saying maybe he was dead as surely he'd be up to something? Now the Yanks claim to have killed him right next door to a Pakistani military base but have conveniently disposed of the body.

Well, how about he actually has been dead for years. The villa was either set up with the assistance of the Pakistani military or really was occupied by some other shady dudes. Seal team go in blasting, inadvertently kill the target and the body is conveniently disposed off. Obama announces the good news to the world and the remaining al Qaeda chappies can't really say "Liars. He's over here." on account of he isn't. Double bluff. Everyone's a winner. Especially the guys who're getting double time and a day in lieu for carrying out a mission on a bank holiday.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Wikipedia now says he's dead, so it must be true

[Buttonman]

He's definitely dead - do you really think the Americans would run the risk of having him turn up in 6 month's with that day's paper and giving them the finger?

The idea that you wouldn't take the chance to shoot the leader of your mortal enemy in a narrow window of opportunity just because he is unarmed is laughable - it's a war and not one that Osama was shy about pursuing.

Can you imagine the nightmare if they took him alive? How many hijacks and murders before he got near the courthouse?

A high moral stance is all very well but when the chips are down sometimes you have fight as dirty as your opponent.

[The Legendary Shark]

No probs, Locusts!

Here's something from November 1st, 2001:

"Bin Laden has often been reported to be in poor health. Some accounts claim that he is suffering from Hepatitis C, and can expect to live for only two more years.

"According to Le Figaro, last year he ordered a mobile dialysis machine to be delivered to his base at Kandahar in Afghanistan."

Taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism

I reckon he's been dead for years. That said, I can't prove it - just like the U.S. can't seem to prove that they've only just killed him.

[JOE SOAP]

Can you imagine the nightmare if they took him alive? How many hijacks and murders before he got near the courthouse

Aside from the scant evidence it's actually him for which I'll take their word.

I don't think that was the reason they killed him straight out. He has a murky history the US doesn't want the world to see emblazoned across the papers. His days in Afghanistan, his ability to run around the Middle-East without investigation for years, Greg Palast's BBC Newsnight investigation showing the Bush family quashed any investigations into Osama's movements before 9/11 plus the fact the evidence linking him personally to 9/11 is quite scant, the US couldn't provide much to the Taliban when they requested it.

He was a freaky isolated Muslim religious zealot, without much public support, who was the PR man for about a hundred Afghani/Saudi guys at the time of 9/11, operationally he didn't get his hands too dirty. Giving him a trial could dangerously reveal how much he was hyped as the bogeyman. In the end the US Military finally put the lights out on their Osama PR machine and probably reaping the benefits of an increased military budget amidst all the public fiscal cuts. It's all about timing and usefulness.

A high moral stance is all very well but when the chips are down sometimes you have fight as dirty as your opponent.

In perspective though, as a threat -as Robert Fisk the only western journalist to interview him has said- he was more or less irrelevant. Dead or alive he's still the same phantom he was portrayed to be.

[Peter Wolf]

Can you imagine the nightmare if they took him alive? How many hijacks and murders before he got near the courthouse?

They could have captured OBL alive and kept it quiet instead of announcing it and that way there wouldnt have been any repercussions and if Pakistani intelligence were unaware of his presence and his neighbours were also unaware of his presence then it would have been very easy to leave with the package alive rather than dead and if the incident was reported then it would have been passed off as yet another US military operation inside Pakistan.

Its unlikely that he would have been subject to a courtroom as instead he would have disappeared into the secret prison network in the custody if the CIA.


Anwar Awl Alaki is the new Osama Bin Laden.

[I know someone who has met the Bin Laden family and Osama Bin Laden and it wasnt someone i was talking to in a pub as i know this individuals background but this was before Bin Laden was into terrorism]

[Dandontdare]

No probs, Locusts!

Here's something from November 1st, 2001:

"Bin Laden has often been reported to be in poor health. Some accounts claim that he is suffering from Hepatitis C, and can expect to live for only two more years.

"According to Le Figaro, last year he ordered a mobile dialysis machine to be delivered to his base at Kandahar in Afghanistan."

Taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism

These "accounts" and "claims" are said to come from anonymous sources within the French intelligence services. Why is it that people refuse to believe anything the government or security services say openly, but if they choose to leak it, it suddenly gets cited as compelling evidence?

[The Legendary Shark]

No probs, Locusts!

Here's something from November 1st, 2001:

"Bin Laden has often been reported to be in poor health. Some accounts claim that he is suffering from Hepatitis C, and can expect to live for only two more years.

"According to Le Figaro, last year he ordered a mobile dialysis machine to be delivered to his base at Kandahar in Afghanistan."

Taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism

I reckon he's been dead for years. That said, I can't prove it - just like the U.S. can't seem to prove that they've only just killed him.

One often hears entirely similar riders (reported to be, some sources claim, according to whoever, etc.) on the BBC. Cock an ear and see how many times these things crop up in "real" news. I don't say you should believe nothing the government or media (or anyone else for that matter) tells you, but nor should you believe everything they tell you, either. One lie doesn't make a conspiracy and one truth doesn't disprove a conspiracy. (In fact, I'd wager that most apparent conspiracies merely arise from people in power dropping the ball and then scrambling to cover it up without anyone noticing.)

It's always better to keep an open mind - but if you do, remember one thing: An open mind is like an open wound, if you don't look after it, it'll get infected. I think mine rotted away yonks ago...

[Orlok]

Mr Vzzbux...

Crappy sequel? A bit harsh there Orlok.

No offence intended there, mate. It's just IMHO. I see it as the sequel nobody wanted or will look fondly upon in the years to come.
Think Matrix Reloaded except with Jessica Lynch and Abu Ghraib.   

Have a couple of mates who have been in both (and one family member who has come home from Iraq) and they couldn't wait til get out of this one. Maybe it is the years, we were all pretty much kids in the first one and apart from Saddam sending up his Scuds every night we were pretty much safe and weren't really coming home to the uncertainty of terror alerts and questions of legality.

That said, can I point out for the record that I read with some interest that they know it is Osama as his dead sister's brain said so via non-independently analysed DNA...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8488004/Osama-Bin-Ladens-body-identified-by-sisters-brain.html

There, that is settled.

Either that or Ashton Kutcher has fucking outdone himself with this episode of Punk'd.

[Dandontdare]

An open mind is like an open wound, if you don't look after it, it'll get infected.

I like this! ^

[vzzbux]

No prob's Orlok it just stuck a chord thats all.






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