London Riots

[spireite68]

So mentioning a discussion about the underlying causes makes me a 'lefty apologist' does it? If that's what you're saying you can piss off.

Piss off? And you are who exactly?

[mygrimmbrother]

what's that got to do with anything?

[Richmond Clements]

You know that Judge Dredd is satire, Sprite..?

Its a sad day when i see Police officers standing around not knowing what to do for fear of reprecussions and the end result being what we are seeing.

Current policy is to stand back, take photos and arrest later. The thinking is that damage to property is acceptable but risk to officers and the public is not. I may not agree with this (even though I seem to be a left wing apologist [whatever that means]) but there you go...

As Mr Burdis says poverty is relative

That's right. And relative to the upper classes in our society, many people are poor. You see how that works? It is, as you say, relative.
Apparently the national average wage for the UK is £24,000 a year. That puts me, and I would guess a lot of other folks here, firmly on the side of poverty.

[mogzilla]

you guys are just copying the Greeks, they have Riots a month ago and now you have Riots!  not a single original thought amongst you Euro types . 

BUt honestly it seems like a rather beastly situation over there and hope you all come through it ok.  Its good to see the Clean Up riots that are happening now, see people can get on together for more than just destruction.

CU Radbacker

you can laugh,we're reintroducing transportation  to the "colonies" 

[Leigh S]

We have created an underclass of people who have no concept responibility, have become dependant on state handouts and encouraged to breed. All this alongside the monstrous "celebrity culture" which has clearly clouded reality for these people.

So what you're really saying is that society IS to blame. Well done.

No i am not what i am saying is that people have choices whatever the circumstance. There are plenty of people who are in these circumstances but make the choice not to get involved, if everyone decided to riot then the streets would be overun. Its down to the individual choice of someone.

But what kind of society has allowed people not only to think this is a good choice, but for it actually to be a good choice?

[Richmond Clements]

When you got nothing, you got nothing to lose
Bob Dylan

[mogzilla]

national service! theyre all "poor" and obviously bored complaining the government(innit) isnt giving them jobs ....just an idea.

[Leigh S]

"When you aint got nothin?" surely!

I think thats true, but complicated by the fact that we arent talking materially here - materially, the state will put a roof over your head and give you enough to pay your bills.  Probably as much as the guy next door who actually works - maybe more if youre wiling to put some effort into it.

I have relatives who have worked all their lives in communities where a lot of people havent and wont.   They have cars, they have TVs.  Probably better quality than my relatives - certainly better than me, whose last 2 cars were hand me downs and last 3 TVs were!  And I'm earning more than most of them.  If society saw that the working people moved on to better things, that'd probably a way of defusing the situation long term, but years of Tory and Tory flavoured policies have reduced most peoples work expectations and opportunities to being no better way out of (relative) poverty.

And in the mean time, a vast number of people have decided, screw that, I can make more on my own if left to my own devices, in various shades of grey and black market ways

[spireite68]

You know that Judge Dredd is satire, Sprite..?

Its a sad day when i see Police officers standing around not knowing what to do for fear of reprecussions and the end result being what we are seeing.

Current policy is to stand back, take photos and arrest later. The thinking is that damage to property is acceptable but risk to officers and the public is not. I may not agree with this (even though I seem to be a left wing apologist [whatever that means]) but there you go...

As Mr Burdis says poverty is relative

That's right. And relative to the upper classes in our society, many people are poor. You see how that works? It is, as you say, relative.
Apparently the national average wage for the UK is £24,000 a year. That puts me, and I would guess a lot of other folks here, firmly on the side of poverty.

Of course i do Richard. Its just so fucking infuriating when we have a section of society who think they can do as they please with no reprecussions. I pay my fucking tax like everyone else. But people who think that society owes them without giving to society should be dealt with. The fact that we havnt is evident in the last few days. I wasn't getting at anyone on the boards mearly stating what the likes of Commrade Livingstone and others are spouting just to gain a few political brownie points.

[Richmond Clements]

national service! theyre all "poor" and obviously bored complaining the government(innit) isnt giving them jobs ....just an idea.

If you mean in the army, then I'd say no.
But I think there is an arguement for work schemes in the local community and the like. Also, I think that part fo the punishment for this shit should be to be made to tidy it up.

[Richmond Clements]

"When you aint got nothin?" surely!

The editor in we would not allow me to type that!

Of course i do Richard. Its just so fucking infuriating when we have a section of society who think they can do as they please with no reprecussions. I pay my fucking tax like everyone else. But people who think that society owes them without giving to society should be dealt with. The fact that we havnt is evident in the last few days. I wasn't getting at anyone on the boards mearly stating what the likes of Commrade Livingstone and others are spouting just to gain a few political brownie points.

Richard??
I do not like Red Ken, even a little bit, but thought he was very good on the news a couple of nights ago, and the reporter who was interviewing him was being amazingly agressive and confrontational while asking politically slanted questions then accusing the newt wrangler of standing on a soapbox when he answered them...

Anyway, I'm mainly enjoying the hilariously large amount of swearing in your posts at the moment!

[Leigh S]

Doh! Sorry Richmond!

I blame society!

Edit  -  ah that wasnt me AGAIN! I'm a model citizern me

[spireite68]

"When you aint got nothin?" surely!

The editor in we would not allow me to type that!

Of course i do Richard. Its just so fucking infuriating when we have a section of society who think they can do as they please with no reprecussions. I pay my fucking tax like everyone else. But people who think that society owes them without giving to society should be dealt with. The fact that we havnt is evident in the last few days. I wasn't getting at anyone on the boards mearly stating what the likes of Commrade Livingstone and others are spouting just to gain a few political brownie points.

Richard??
I do not like Red Ken, even a little bit, but thought he was very good on the news a couple of nights ago, and the reporter who was interviewing him was being amazingly agressive and confrontational while asking politically slanted questions then accusing the newt wrangler of standing on a soapbox when he answered them...

Anyway, I'm mainly enjoying the hilariously large amount of swearing in your posts at the moment!

Fucking sorry Richmond, my fucking apologies. WTF is a newt wrangler? FUCK FUCK.
Its not very often i do swear its only because i'm so fucking annoyed he he. Good job my old mum isnt on the boards she would kill me!!! That woman is still devastating at 72, she can remove her slipper and launch it with deadly accuracy in one move!!! Bless her.

[IAMTHESYSTEM]

Let's leave the name calling aside shall we?  No one is saying they sympathise with the rioters merely that this must have more causes than just criminality.

The Devil will make work for idle hands to do sang Morrissey so I think that having almost a million under 25 year olds unemployed must have something to do with this but before you get your Bazooka's out it's certainly not the only factor. As some commentaters have pointed out almost all the worst affected areas have had long established Gang problems for years, decades even.

The rules to enforce the Law against repeat offenders are often complex involving various State Agencies who can only do so much since I assume we all believe in some sort of Freewill though Science may be demolishing that story soon. Criminals know only too well that enforcement is pretty arbitary, subject too all sort of errors and therefore if they choose to commit crime they can carry on with little to restrain them. One Lad from Manchester was happily boasting on SKY News how the Police kept catching him for 'minor crimes' as if the Police were some sort of inconvenience that came along to bother him occasionally and he was much happier with his prospects of getting away with his criminality thanks too all the rioting and looting. Not really a 'victim' of society as far as I could tell.

That said some social study evidence from Scandanavia did show that a more equal societies are happier ones, less inclined towards angry displays or social alienation. The Rich here pay far less Tax than the middle Tier of Society, earn many times more than the average worker on £24,000 and are seen as societies 'winners' while the very poor have hardly seen their prospects rise at all and are stuck in the Rut with little to improve their lot in life. State Benefits can pay more than working in Low paid jobs so it's easy to become indolent or 'cheat the system' that you feel cheated you. The system allows CEO's/Celebrities/Footballers to get away with millions while you struggle just getting by. Social resentment is almost inevitable. We've all scoffed with incredulity as another Banker of a failed Bank gives himself a pay rise.

I hope they don't call in the Army and you feel how the Soldiers who frequent the forums reacted with some of the strongest opinions. Trained to Defend or seize territory by physical Force they see these Gangs as an enemy to be treated with the sternest measures possible. Good on yah Lads but I'm afraid this is a Social problem caused by resentment and then exploited by an unruly minority who have realized that by stretching the Police resources by sheer weight of numbers you can steal and rob at will. The Army could probably contain that but for how long do you want the Soldiers on the streets of our Major cities?

What to do? Well they'll have to get tough with the street Gangs/rioters before any Inquest into how we got to here so expect high visibilty Policing, many more arrest and possibly the Army being introduced to protect Firefighters, Ambulance crews. Then when the heat's [hopefully] died down there will  be some sort of Parliamentary investigation and we'll see from there what measures can be taken to ensure that this sort of disorder is kept to the minimum in the future.

[Richmond Clements]

Good job my old mum isnt on the boards she would kill me!!!

Ha! Tell me about it! I don't think I have ever swore in front of my mum... I'd be scared to.