Prog 1798: Mecha Death!

[A.Cow]

What Zero does turns it from a mutual breakdown of inhibition into a scenario where his ex has been deliberately and viciously humiliated.

I must admit I didn't read it like that.

What you seem to be suggesting is that Zero revelled in gaining revenge by making her the powerless victim of a serious sexual assault.

On the other hand, my interpretation of the story was that Zero humiliated her by undermining her puritanical self-discipline -- the implication being that the gas lowers inhibitions on existing desires (rather than making a person have sex against their will).

Like I say, that's the way I read it and I presume that's the way it was intended.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Now they're some of the most level headed evaluations that've been posted so far. I've been struggling with this.

Diggle shows the gas getting into the cockpit, and if he'd left it at that, the story could have been told just the same, I'd still have known that those Judges no longer posed a threat to Lenny's plan. But he doesn't stop there, he shows us that Lenny fancies having a wee perv on his ex and the whole thing becomes a bit grubby. Of all the things he could have shown 3 completely unihibited judges doing, he shows that.

Analogies with Rohypnol seem misplaced, since the introduction of Dizzy's chemical agent as a party drug that lowers inhibitions figures it as something more akin to ecstacy- which increases empathic responses and sensual awareness without violating individual will.

I sort of understand where the date-rape drug analogies come from. Sex seems to be the only out-come when it's used on Judges. But the difference between this sci-fi drug and the vile real-life date-rape drugs, is that all parties involved in the actual sex are doped. But why was the first response of ALL parties involved to shag their workmates? The Judges are repressed, but I doubt sex is the only thing Judges repress. What if one of those SJS Judges was really outraged by what they saw as judges disgracing their uniforms and started summarily executing everyone around him or her? What if one of those people piloting the vehicle decided they wanted to pull off some crazy stunts, just for shits and giggles?

Lenny's plan seems to hinge on the fact that this drug will just make people horny, and not send them dangerously out of control. Because ye know....illegal narcotics can't make people do stupid things and it's impossible for anyone to have a bad reaction to them.

Or it could be that Diggle just used a half-arsed maguffin to insert cheap shocks into the prog.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Damned edit function snuck off on me.

Or it could be that Diggle just used a half-arsed maguffin to insert cheap shocks into an otherwise excellent story.

[Frank]

I doubt sex is the only thing Judges repress. What if one of those SJS Judges was really outraged by what they saw as judges disgracing their uniforms and started summarily executing everyone around him or her? What if one of those people piloting the vehicle decided they wanted to pull off some crazy stunts, just for shits and giggles?

I've largely enjoyed the story too Pops. I think Afro Dizzy's name is as good an indication as we're going to get that the properties of her caper vapour act specifically on the libido. Crucially, in the scene in which she's introduced (1794), Both she and Lenny are exposed to the agent without pouncing on the first available partner. I presume Lenny's rejection of the avoirdupois who propositions him in that same scene was specifically intended to demonstrate that the drug's effect doesn't negate sexual or aesthetic preference or compromise free will.

[Keef Monkey]

Yeah, I'm afraid I don't see what all the fuss is about, neither me nor my girlfriend batted an eyelid at it. I was under the impression the drug just lowered inhibitions and made folks horny. So can alcohol but I certainly wouldn't consider two (or three) drunk people all quite clearly consenting to sex to be rape.

I guess they didn't consent to being drugged though. I suppose if I stopped to think about it and gave it a bit of analysis it might appear pretty unpleasant but certainly on a first read just flicking through enjoying the story I wasn't offended in the least. In fact, I'm afraid I may have chuckled slightly.

[The Prodigal]

I doubt sex is the only thing Judges repress. What if one of those SJS Judges was really outraged by what they saw as judges disgracing their uniforms and started summarily executing everyone around him or her? What if one of those people piloting the vehicle decided they wanted to pull off some crazy stunts, just for shits and giggles?

I've largely enjoyed the story too Pops. I think Afro Dizzy's name is as good an indication as we're going to get that the properties of her caper vapour act specifically on the libido. Crucially, in the scene in which she's introduced (1794), Both she and Lenny are exposed to the agent without pouncing on the first available partner. I presume Lenny's rejection of the avoirdupois who propositions him in that same scene was specifically intended to demonstrate that the drug's effect doesn't negate sexual or aesthetic preference or compromise free will.

Bill that is a very kind interpretation but for me that represents an excessive extrapolation. I wish there was that neat gullotine but I am far from convinced. For me there is still a very blurry line in the narrative that might still be construed in ugly fashion.

Again though I have to be honest-its not just the possible interpretation of de facto date rape that makes me uneasy. I am a prude in that I find the graphic nature of the scenes themselves too much in themselves. They have all the appearance of male fantasist porno poses to me.

This whole thing has me wondering how female readers/writers might view the story. I get the feeling this neck of the woods is still very much a male arena.

[DrJomster]

Firstly, please have me committed to a padded cell, no sharp objects allowed, for posting on this thread...

Secondly, thirdly, etc...

I don't think Lenny deliberately targeted his ex with the aphrodisiac

There was no hoo-haa on these forums for the previous prog when the same thing happened to other judges

Yes, THAT panel went further than most and arguably too far

I can't believe Andy Diggle or Tharg intended people to be offended they way they obviously have

Please don't get cheesed off and "ignore" me on the forums. I like seeing the variety of opinion and I hope you can bear reading mine. I could be totally wrong about all this, in which case it's safe to relax and not get angry.

I haven't read the last part yet as Saturday's prog didn't arrive. So this is written not knowing the end or how Max Normal presumably suddenly plays a key role to justify bringing him back... It'd better be good, that's all I'm saying...

Lastly, don't forget to put me in that padded cell, yeah?

[vzzbux]

The whole plot for Lenny was revenge on Kramer. Miss PSI pointed it out a number of times.




V

[DrJomster]

Really? How did I miss that?

Then doesn't all this hoo-haa come down to whether his intent was for her specifically to get done via the drug?

Cheers V for a factual response. Shall re-read tonight!

[Woolly]

Don't normally do this, but feel i should throw in my three-pence worth....

The way the scene was illustrated was, IMO, just crass and degrading to the characters in question.
Theres a time and a place for images like that, and 2000AD is not the place (i was reading it at about 2pm, so probably not the time either).

After reading this thread, i looked again at the page in question. I honestly feel that all this could have been avoided if the panel merely showed 2 judges snogging, and starting to unzip their uniforms.
The sentiment is the same, the judges would still be in trouble (probably), and the gas could have worn off before anything offensive happened.
As it stands, we have an image of an horrendous crime that we're supposed to find entertaining.

What i'm trying to say is that i find the artwork the most offensive part of this. The gas could have been explained in the way that wasn't overtly sexual (Pops 1983 explained this bit better than i could), but when we get a panel that can only be described as [spoiler]MMF porn[/spoiler] it becomes clear that non-consensual sex is the only use for the gas.

Not quite rape by dictionary definition, but a forced sex act against the will of the involved parties all the same. Which is close enough to rape in my book.

Rather stunned something like this made it past editorial. Be interesting to know wether it was scripted this way, or if Willsher just went too far when drawing it. (although, the fact that so many of us picked up on this upon a single glance doesnt bode well for either creator here.)

Be even more interesting if either Andy Diggle or Ben Willsher would respond to this thread, wether it be to defend or apologise for the offending panel.

Just for the record, i don't believe either droid was actively trying to be offensive, but i do believe that the proverbial ball has been well and truly dropped here.

[Old Tankie]

Why would the creators want to apologise or defend their work, their job is to put the story and the artwork out there and for other people to comment on it, as they have, surely?

[Woolly]

Why would the creators want to apologise or defend their work, their job is to put the story and the artwork out there and for other people to comment on it, as they have, surely?

You're quite correct, this is work-for-hire after all.
I wasn't suggesting they should comment, i'd just like to know what their thoughts are considering the reaction some people (myself included) are having to what should be a light-hearted and fun comic strip.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

...Pops 1983 explained this bit better than i could...

That statement right there is solid proof (if any were needed) that this thread has gone completely off the rails.

[TordelBack]

As it stands, we have an image of an horrendous crime that we're supposed to find entertaining.

At this point I have to accept, through weight of numbers if nothing else, that my stance on this episode has been incorrect.  Enough sane people (and the odd nutter) have been appalled by the scene in question that it clearly was a misstep.  I can see how people read it this way, and although I still doubt it was Diggle and Willsher's intention that it be read like that, that's probably neither here nor there.  I apologise if my comments added to the discomfort anyone feels, I just saw, and indeed see, the whole thing differently. 

Even so, the quite from Woolly's well-argued post may illustrate the confusion as well as anything else: what has Judge Dredd been these past 35 years if not a series of horrendous crimes (including Justice Dept itself) that we're supposed to find entertaining? 

The difference is in what type of crime is depicted - where the sequence in question can be read as rape, and clearly it can, it touches on a crime with a particular  character that make its use as titillating entertainment utterly unsupportable.

[The Prodigal]

May i say as someone who has went on ad infinitum that I am sorry if anyone died of tedium during my posts. It was genuinely not my authorial intention at the outset though on re-reading the thread I can see how it might have happened.

2000Ad is a great comic. This newbie has immensely enjoyed the company and advice of all on here. My wife says to stop telling me about things I should read.

Good night.