Women in comics

[JayzusB.Christ]

Asking why more girls don't write and draw superhero comics is like asking why it's only men's names you see written in snow with piss.

Fair play.  It's like having a second Tordelback around, which is a good thing.  Haven't read all of this thread, but somebody must have mentioned Leah Moore already?  As far as I can see, she's a good, solid comics writer, perfect for the Black Museum format she was commissioned for in the Meg - maybe not quite as innovative as her dad, but who is?

[Ancient Otter]

Correct me if I'm wrong but have we gone through 5 pages on this topic and not had one female board member post?

[The Enigmatic Dr X]

"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."  - CS Lewis

- and one of the most true things ever said.

While a sweeping statement, my tuppence is this: girls tend not to be involved in the buying or making of comics becuase they are taught from an early age that they are not for them. Bunty, Misty, Mandy - the comics for girls are all dead. What we are left with is vicious, visceral imagery designed to appeal to boys (of all ages), from Dredd to the Avengers.

This is easy for men to make because we are programmed to consume it. Guns, violence, intrugue, high drama - these are the things our culture makes manly (none of that feelings stuff), and these are the things that girls are programmed not to like.

True, there are exceptions. True, it should not be this way. But I can't help but feel the question is like "why do some girls not like football?" or "why don't mean read romantic novels?"

[stacey]

Did someone call? :-D
Look it's easy enough, there are many, many female comic creators, I edit an anthology and Iz runs a convention, Vicky is an amazing artist, and Lady Festina is a writer and publisher extraordinaire. They are just the female board members from this here forum. There are plenty of women in comics and not just Manga! Look around the indie tables teh next time you're at a convention you might be surprised.

But yes, there are not a great deal of women who work in mainstream, I honestly don't know if that's cos they can't or because they don't want to. I can't comment on shit I know nowt about. Also I find it hard to care as I don't read many mainstream comics, not my cup of tea really.

What I can say is that I have never felt 2000AD is off limits to me as a women, I think the Judges particularly are a good example of utter equality, and in 2000AD there are strong female characters galore. Why there are not more female readers I do not know, not for the lack of me pushing it like crack to all and sundry I tells ya.

[Ancient Otter]

Guns, violence, intrigue, high drama - these are the things our culture makes manly (none of that feelings stuff), and these are the things that girls are programmed not to like.

True, there are exceptions.

Case in point, The Walking Dead & Game of Thrones televison shows and the Game of Throne novels. Loads of women I know love these. But getting them onto the source comics/comic adaptations is a different story....

[stacey]

Guns, violence, intrigue, high drama - these are the things our culture makes manly (none of that feelings stuff), and these are the things that girls are programmed not to like.

True, there are exceptions.

Case in point, The Walking Dead & Game of Thrones televison shows and the Game of Throne novels. Loads of women I know love these. But getting them onto the source comics/comic adaptations is a different story....

Again depends on the women, dude. I read Games of Thrones when it came in a freebie bag at the first SFX Event which I think was in 2002. These are sweeping generalisations here, again Iz is a hardcore Walking dead comic fan to the point where it took her awhile to get into the series...I'm not fussed myself, read the first one and thought it was a bit ...dull.

[stacey]

Also I know loads of dudes who watch Game of Thrones/Walking dead and have no interest in the source material either. Its a telly thing not a gender thing I think

[sheldipez]

Slightly off topic here, but it does relate to 'nerd' culture.

I've heard Dorothy Fontana wrote a lot of Star Trek TOS episodes under the name D.C Fontana, so that her work would be judged on merit instead of being judged by her gender. She also used the pen names Michael Richards and J. Michael Bingham.

Also J.K Rowling. Did she use her initials (or at at least, was she advised to) so that boys wouldn't be put off?

I think this has become a tradition or an affectation rather than a necessity these days - The Bronte sisters all published under fake male names, as did George Eliot of course, because women just would not get published or taken seriously back then. It was probably still useful in certain situations until quite recently though, as that Fontana anecdote shows.

I remmber being surprised as a kid when I found oput Enid was a girl's name!

I believe that men wanting to write romantic fiction these days are told by publishers to adopt a female pseudonym 'cos women feel weird reading, or would be les likley to buy, romances written by blokes

This happens a lot; sci-fi writer Stephani Danelle Perry goes under the name of "S. D. Perry" in all her novels too. I quite enjoy her Resident Evil series, they're way more faithfull (and enjoyable) than the live action Resident Evil monstrosities.

[CrazyFoxMachine]

I've heard Dorothy Fontana wrote a lot of Star Trek TOS episodes under the name D.C Fontana, so that her work would be judged on merit instead of being judged by her gender. She also used the pen names Michael Richards and J. Michael Bingham.

Also J.K Rowling. Did she use her initials (or at at least, was she advised to) so that boys wouldn't be put off?

In both these examples, they were asked to change it. They didn't choose to.

But the Journal's co-editor; a lifelong comic fan, fantasy author and poet refers to herself as Geoffery Crescent. Whether it seems outdated or not the very fact this topic even exists and is full of the kind of debate that it is makes her shy away from identifying as a woman. So everything she does isn't marked down by her gender first - "this female writer". Oh, she's one! I spotted one! There's a woman!!!!!

The aforementioned Crescent also ran the Sheffield uni sci-fi/fantasy society and has wrote numerous blogs on the tired and CONTINUOUS misconception that fantasy is male dominated (thanks Big Bang Theory) given that a whopping eighty percent of her student membership were female.

I was reticent to wade into this because the very fact the "debate" has gone on this long is irritating. Where are the women? Every fucking where, deeply ingrained in every facet of a culture that doesn't belong to one gender. Get over it.

[Dandontdare]

Crescent also ran the Sheffield uni sci-fi/fantasy society and has wrote numerous blogs

Oh Owen Owen Owen - another Grammar Fairy has just died, I hope you're happy! 

[I, Cosh]

Oh hardest topic to answering!

I never thought about that, as been enjoy many 2000AD stories for years, and never think about male/female writers, but sorry as can't recall if there is any female writers of Sci-Fi books?

Ursula le Guin, Doris Lessing, Sherri Tepper, Julian May, James Tiptree Jr. Would be a handful of decent ones who immediately spring to mind.

[TordelBack]

I was reticent to wade into this because the very fact the "debate" has gone on this long is irritating. Where are the women? Every fucking where, deeply ingrained in every facet of a culture that doesn't belong to one gender. Get over it.

Hang on there CFM, the 'debate' being had here is a discussion of why there are so few female comics creators in 2000AD (and mainstream comics), the situation obviously being that they're woefully under-represented.  There's been some very interesting points made, and others that make me want to drive skewers through my eyes and into my aching brain, but I think the discussion has been illuminating.

From the foregoing, I think most of us here agree that the issue isn't women not liking/creating fantasy/SF (as The Cosh notes, the greatest SF author of them* all is a woman, LeGuin, as is the most successful fantasy author of them all, Rowling, and that's without wandering into Twilight or Hunger Games territory) or even women not liking/creating comics (which is demonstrably untrue from all of the foregoing), it was a very specific query.  I agree that TBBT presents a picture of a male-only nerdy sub-culture that bears no resemblance to reality (even in the '80s our RPG group boasted 3 women, and at home our shelves groan under the weight of my wife's ghastly taste in Manga, 'Trek and various Raimi-related productions), but it's hardly doing anything more than being a comedy that plays up to existing erroneous stereotypes.  See also: everything funny, ever.

Breaking it down, the under-representation of female creators in 2000AD/mainstream comics has to come from either: (a). unfairly obstructed access; (b). the unappealing nature of the material in this specific niche; (c). the unappealing audience who apparently are unable to enjoy anything created by a woman.  I suspect it's some mix of all three, but (b) most likely dominates.  And while it's easy to say that mainstream superhero comics are such a narrow pursuit that it's a miracle anyone likes them, the same is not true of 2000AD, which regularly prints material that would never find a home in the New 52 or Marvel Now or whatever. 

So it remains a valid question.





*Not an opinion, a FACT.  If the god-botherers get to claim things as true on the basis of personal faith, then so do I.  And I have a lot more books to argue from.

[mygrimmbrother]

Not a particularly inspired addition to this thread but two of my favourite artists at the moment are Fiona Staples (the magnificent pop-arty Saga) and Becky Cloonan (her take on Conan was sublime and I miss her on the title).

Jenny Frison is also knocking out some cracking cover art on Revival and a couple of other titles. Her cover for the first issue of Revival was a corker and one of my faves of last year.

[CrazyFoxMachine]

Breaking it down, the under-representation of female creators in 2000AD/mainstream comics has to come from either: (a). unfairly obstructed access; (b). the unappealing nature of the material in this specific niche; (c). the unappealing audience who apparently are unable to enjoy anything created by a woman.  I suspect it's some mix of all three, but (b) most likely dominates.  And while it's easy to say that mainstream superhero comics are such a narrow pursuit that it's a miracle anyone likes them, the same is not true of 2000AD, which regularly prints material that would never find a home in the New 52 or Marvel Now or whatever. 

I DO think that 2000ad has an oddly disproportionate slant, but I disagree that this is just as apparent in mainstream comics - this topic is stuffed with the names of mainstream and influential indie creators who happen to also be women. No, can't see it.

So taking your points in regards to 2000ad alone, I'd have to lean towards (a) there must be some fault or something unappealing about the submissions process - because I refuse to believe that the entire varied canon of twooth history has an "unappealing nature" for female creators (!!) - and that anyone would be put off from submitting because of the unappealing audience. Pff.

Now... to start a topic "list your favourite male creators" - hm.

[Colin YNWA]

While this thread might indeed be stuffed as you say with names of influencial female creators I genuinely feel your burying your head in the sand if you think that represents an equitable proportion of the creative commity