Women in comics

[Colin YNWA]

While this thread might indeed be stuffed as you say with names of influencial female creators I genuinely feel your burying your head in the sand if you think that represents an equitable proportion of the creative commity

Apologies  I was doing that on my phone, needed to modify, THEN the battery ran out. Anyway to continue.

... creative community. As has been said by many people on this thread if you look at the proportion of creators in the small press community at cons and the like it seems far higher than is seen in the professional community. While we all might be able to list our favourites I'd take an educated guess, while not scientific, that the further up the mainstream you go the small the representation of female creators becomes. Look no further than the rather damning stats produced monthly on Bleeding Cool for the gender divide at DC and Marvel. While its all well and good saying 'Arh but I don't read such superhero nonsense' it avoids the point that they are the biggest sellers of floppies and have by far the largest market share in the English speaking market.

It is a concern and one that's very valid to discuss. Anyone is welcome to start a thread asking who people's favourite male creators are it would in no way invalidate the entirely separate issues being raised here.

In some ways in summary - what Tordelback said... but I do like to labour a point!

[TordelBack]

I DO think that 2000ad has an oddly disproportionate slant, but I disagree that this is just as apparent in mainstream comics - this topic is stuffed with the names of mainstream and influential indie creators who happen to also be women. No, can't see it.

I agree that there are many female creators working in mainstream comics, as this thread amply demonstrates, but proportionally it's a pathetic amount, especially when compared to the numbers and influence of those working in indie, newspaper and particularly webcomics (where female artists in particular seem to be in the majority, at least in the ones I read) . 

While I hate to cite Bleeding Cool on anything, particularly statistics and matters of gender, their review of the gender breakdown in 2012 comics is sobering:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2013/02/26/gendercrunching-december-2012/

Here's the DC graph from that article.  Note how much of that tiny figure is made up by assistant editors, rather than script/art or even full editors.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

No doubt someone at DC is currently collecting binders of women.

[CrazyFoxMachine]

what Tordelback said... but I do like to labour a point!

Then lets continue to labour it. Fair enough, I don't read or pay attention to the output of "the big two" comic corporations - the graphs are alarming as they are aptly-coloured...

So the question is - what do we want to see? A more gender-neutral environment in the professional area of comics, as is clearly present in the small press?

Well - a good way to start is to stop needlessly bringing gender into it. This is my main irritation here, as well-meaning equal opportunities talk can sometimes come across as heavy-handed and patronising.

"Look, there's a woman! HI"
"Hello."
"I'm not here to buy anything but... well done. Well done for being a woman and for making comics"
"Okay."

If a factor, like TordelBack says, of 2000ad's shocking lack of gender equality is one of a readership that discriminates against or alienates female creators - then maybe we should look to today's two major "updated topics" on the forum

"Women in Comics"
"Who wants to look at womens underware"

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

So the question is - what do we want to see? A more gender-neutral environment in the professional area of comics, as is clearly present in the small press?

Well - a good way to start is to stop needlessly bringing gender into it. This is my main irritation here, as well-meaning equal opportunities talk can sometimes come across as heavy-handed and patronising.

How exactly does one go about addressing a lack of professional parity in gender without bringing gender into it?

It may not be a big issue in small press and web-comics, but the top paying jobs in comics (i.e jobs for the big two) are all dominated by men.

And does it come across as heavy handed and patronising? Fucked if I know, what with me being a man and all. But I don't think men showing concern for this sort of thing is bad. Sure, we may get it all arse ways, but you can't blame a man for at least trying.

[stacey]

CFM is right, do any writers or artists want to be known for their gender first? Oh he's a male writer? A good writer/artist yes a  "lady writer/artist/editor/whatever no. I totally understand why people hide their genders, totally.

[Colin YNWA]

CFM is right, do any writers or artists want to be known for their gender first? Oh he's a male writer? A good writer/artist yes a  "lady writer/artist/editor/whatever no. I totally understand why people hide their genders, totally.

But discussing the broader issues of gender in comics and labeling any individual foremost by their gender (race, sexuality anything really) aren't the same thing. Of course any creator wants to be judged on the quality of the work they create (I'd think and hope, but I guess shouldn't presume) but we're (again maybe I shouldn't presume and should say I) not really talking about individuals here, aside from siting individuals as evidence of a point.

So for example by my saying I really like some of the work by Ann Nocenti and Louise Simonson (as started all this) is not related to their gender, but rather the fact as writers they have produced some bloody good work. This has (as in the article first linked to) inspired a far broader discussion as to why in a quantitative way there aren't more female creators working at the 'top end' (I know, I know, that's why I've put that in inverted commas) and the comic we come here to talk about.

[stacey]

I think I'm missing the point then. I'm saying there are plenty of women in comics, just not in the mainstream. Thing is I don't know a single women who wants to be in the mainstream, they want to make their own comics and tell their own stories and you know make comics and money etc for themselves. I don't see how this is "less" I think this is far cooler and far more right on.

If the question is why aren't there more women creators in 2000ad specifically then possibly the title of the thread needs changing as that isn't clear. And I don't know the answer to that.

But speaking for myself as a women in comics I'm doing alreet - cheers for asking.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Thing is I don't know a single women who wants to be in the mainstream

Fuckin' hipsters

[CrazyFoxMachine]

Of course any creator wants to be judged on the quality of the work they create (I'd think and hope, but I guess shouldn't presume) but we're (again maybe I shouldn't presume and should say I) not really talking about individuals here, aside from citing individuals as evidence of a point.

So for example by my saying I really like some of the work by Ann Nocenti and Louise Simonson (as started all this) is not related to their gender, but rather the fact as writers they have produced some bloody good work.

Then this topic - which you started about Ann Nocenti and Louis Simonson, is about individuals in comics. Not women in comics, not gender in comics but those two creators. "Ann Nocenti and Louise Simonson in comics" you should've called it.

Thing is I don't know a single women who wants to be in the mainstream, they want to make their own comics and tell their own stories and you know make comics and money etc for themselves. I don't see how this is "less" I think this is far cooler and far more right on.

Bang. The mainstream isn't the be-all and end-all of comics, and no field should be represented by the top-earners or the most influential members of it.

[TordelBack]

Then this topic - which you started about Ann Nocenti and Louis Simonson, is about individuals in comics. Not women in comics, not gender in comics but those two creators. "Ann Nocenti and Louise Simonson in comics" you should've called it.

You make some excellent points there CFM, and Stacey is spot on with her observation "do any writers or artists want to be known for their gender first?".  However, suggesting we become gender-blind and it doesn't matter is overlooking the fact that from the 35 year history of my favourite self-styled 'ground-breaking' comic, I can name exactly one female writer off the top of my head.  That is a situation worthy of comment.  I suppose I'm coming from a mindset that believes all things are better when they are open to and engage a mix of genders, and believing that the best way to achieve this situation is to examine why it isn't happening.

The mainstream isn't the be-all and end-all of comics, and no field should be represented by the top-earners or the most influential members of it.

Yes, absolutely right - although somewhat inevitably a field will be represented by its most influential members, whether we like it or not.  I do think this gets to the heart of the matter though: mainstream comics are hideously moribund and self-consuming, and traditionally created by men and read by ageing boys (although, yet again, we have catalogued the significant role played by women).  Anyone up and coming in to the field won't be slaved to the narrowest of forms.  And that's a good thing, and certainly agrees with the observations regardaing indie, small press and the web - and indeed the GNs on the shelves of bookshops as opposed to comics shops.

As to:

"Women in Comics"
"Who wants to look at womens underware"

"Conan, what is best in life?"

[Jim_Campbell]

Bang. The mainstream isn't the be-all and end-all of comics, and no field should be represented by the top-earners or the most influential members of it.

No. Not bang. In fact, that statement is so far from 'bang' that the only way to effectively measure its distance from 'bang' is by measuring the red shift in the light that reaches it from the dying embers of 'bang'.

The top earners/most influential segment of a field should be precisely as representative as the rest of it. If this is not true, then this is a textbook example of inequality. "No senior managers or chief executives in the NHS, you say? Well, look just at all these nurses. No gender equality issues here, nosiree, bob!"

It's no surprise to me that there are few women in mainstream comics (and, indeed, far fewer than I recall in US comics from my youth) since the level of objectification and sexualisation of women, and levels of violence against women that are deemed acceptable are now so high that I'm surprised any women can stomach it.

Cheers

Jim

[qtwerk]

Bang. The mainstream isn't the be-all and end-all of comics, and no field should be represented by the top-earners or the most influential members of it.

No. Not bang. In fact, that statement is so far from 'bang' that the only way to effectively measure its distance from 'bang' is by measuring the red shift in the light that reaches it from the dying embers of 'bang'.

The top earners/most influential segment of a field should be precisely as representative as the rest of it. If this is not true, then this is a textbook example of inequality. "No senior managers or chief executives in the NHS, you say? Well, look just at all these nurses. No gender equality issues here, nosiree, bob!"

It's no surprise to me that there are few women in mainstream comics (and, indeed, far fewer than I recall in US comics from my youth) since the level of objectification and sexualisation of women, and levels of violence against women that are deemed acceptable are now so high that I'm surprised any women can stomach it.

Cheers

Jim

A CEO position in the NHS is a different skillset to nursing. So what's gender got to do with anything?

[Jim_Campbell]

Edit: Never mind.

[Richmond Clements]

Edit: Never mind.

Went through the same thing myself there, Jim.