Sign-Writing Pricing Query

[JayzusB.Christ]

I've just been asked to paint a pub sign (one of the big long ones across the face of the building, not one of the smalling hanging ones).  It'll probably just be the name of the pub; maybe about 9 foot long.  I have absolutely no idea how to price a job like this - anyone got any ideas? Thanks

[CrazyFoxMachine]

As with anything -

How long will it take you? Figure out a good hourly rate and go from there

Will you require new materials for it? Add that on.

Over £50 for sure for a big painted sign.

[Jim_Campbell]

How will you get it through the printer?

Cheers

Jim

[TordelBack]

Strikes me that it will take up a day of your time whatever happens, so how much is that worth to you? 

I'm probably teaching my grandmother to suck eggs here, and I'm not an artist of anything other than bullshit, but if it's any use my MINIMUM billing rates are based on:

Hourly minimum wage for the job plus the time it took me to *get* the job
+ Taxes (USC, PRSI, possible [hah hah] income tax)
+ 15% towards my [hah hah hah] holidays, bank holidays and sick days, i.e. time I'm not working.
+ Expended materials (not tools or materials you'll use again).
+ Actual travel expenses, or other unavoidable out-of-pocket incurred. Always actual costs, never Civil Service rates or any of that bollocks.

My thought is that you're looking to pay yourself at least the equivalent of minimum wage, and you won't be able to do that if you omit any of that extra stuff, which is all stuff an employer would be obliged to cover (somewhat less actually, since you'll be providing your own insurance and any HS&W gear).

For short-notice or long-duration work away from home cold reality may require that I also allow money for child care, since minimum wage isn't going to cover that for two kids.  Reality also suggests that if I do do this I won't get the job, but there isn't much point earning less than it's costing.  That's how I got into my present mess, after all.

This is all for a job I WANT, that'll run for a good while, or be interesting, likely to lead to further work, or even just look good on the ol' prospectus. If it's a job/client I suspect is going to cause me more-than-usual amounts of grief in terms of the work or (more importantly) the payment, I charge more, ALWAYS more. Again, this may mean I don't get the job, but a 200 euro job you spend two years trying to get paid for is appreciably worse than no job at all.  Another route into my present situation.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is: more than £50.  Unless it's cash-in-hand no-questions-asked, which is probably unsustainable if you're on a ladder outside a pub for the day.

[Dandontdare]

add  "unlimited bar tab" as well!

[CrazyFoxMachine]

add  "unlimited bar tab" as well!

Don't ask for that one before you discuss the money - THEY WILL INSIST THAT THIS SOMEHOW COUNTS AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO PAYMENT.

"Hi landlord, have some free pints instead of rent" See how that pans out...

[The Enigmatic Dr X]

Why not phone up a sign company and get a quote?

[TordelBack]

Why not phone up a sign company and get a quote?

Excellent suggestion, that.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Thanks a million, everyone.  Might go with phoning the sign-painting company!  CFM, I think I'll go well over the 50 quid mark - turns out it's much bigger than i expected (well over 20 foot in fact; though the lettering doesn't take up all of that space.)

[Bubba Zebill]

Why not phone up a sign company and get a quote?

...and you might also ask for a small down-payment. This, if they ask, helps with your materials.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Thanks, bubba, actually that's something I've been thinking about for a while. A down payment not only makes things easier for me, but also looks more professional and gives the client more of a sense of commitment (you wouldn't believe the number of last-minute cancellations I get).
Anyway I checked with a guy in Donegal, who said it would cost about 500 euro, but that of course includes a lot of travel fees as Donegal is very far from Dublin, at least in Irish terms (as johnny stress will confirm). Also, my man has the background painted already, so maybe something like 270 euro. What do yous think?

[Old Tankie]

If you're self-employed, charge your normal daily rate.  Simples, really.

[TordelBack]

270 sounds good to me, Jayzus, as long as it doesn't take you more than two days (including negotiations, prep and billing).  I trust you're including for me to hold the ladder.   If you think of the value to the pub of professional signage over its likely lifetime, it's peanuts.  Pringles at best.

FWIW my own daily rate for professional stuff is EUR115 excluding materials etc, which I feel equates to a reasonable few quid more than a PAYE minimum wage (which is about EUR65 a day, IIRC), although still far short of the Average Industrial.  Realistically, on-the-books self-employed work should never be done at less than 50% over what you'd get if you were employed, unless it's a fairly long contract: in the past I've subbed people who were charging themselves out at 30% over, and they never lasted long.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Thanks, TB, I may even up it slightly - this will probably be a two-day job, and will cost a bit in materials, travel etc.  Incidentally, what's your own handle?  Aside from the forthcoming ground-based vertical safety engineer post you've just signed up for, of course.

Tankie, cheers, though I tend to charge per square metre rather than per hour - as a mural painter I get quicker all the time, so it doesn't work out in my case to charge on the basis of time. Also, I employ colourists occasionally, so paying them at an hourly rate definitely isn't the way forward.  At the risk of sounding like a certain green-skinned editor, I don't want my minions slacking off! (Not that they ever do, but I'm not going to encourage them...)

[TordelBack]

Incidentally, what's your own handle? 

Nothing remotely artistic or skillful I must emphasise - heritage-related consultancy for planning, tourism etc. Lots of hanging about in the rain, suffering silently through meetings and falling asleep in libraries, when you can get any of it. And I should also be clear that average wage in my field presently hovers just above Min Wage, despite post-graduate qualification and 5+ years experience being the norm.  Current dogs-on-the-street scandal doing the rounds is the major players illegally paying way under MW and 'topping up' with untaxed expenses, thus avoiding all that unpleasant Employer's Contribution business, and helpfully minimising rates for pro rata holiday pay etc.  And that's when they aren't avoiding the issue entirely with JobBridge or pure volunteering.

So don't take my ramblings as representative of what are reasonable rates, for comparison purposes only!