Any ideas on the number of Judges in Mega City One.

[TordelBack]

The wee classier in that Unanium city do hickey - not her fault

And not a clone, no matter what sonic screwdriver Mr. Carroll employs!  See also: Nimrod.

You're right, the attrition rate for cadets is surely higher.  However when Fargos go wrong they go wrong.  How many failed cadets take 60 million citizens with them?

[ZenArcade]

TordelBack, sorry again about predictive text typos. I meant wee lassie....uranium city.
Ok this Kraken dude. Now if memory serves, he was not a true Justice Department clone (was he not part of a bunch of zygotes Morton Judd stole when his coup attempt failed). I'm sure post Day of Chaos Justice Department cloning personnel with lessons learned from the  Kraken disaster, would, be to put it mildly, a bit more circumspect in their total ownership of the material and processes from start to finish.

[Frank]

Ok this Kraken dude. Now if memory serves, he was not a true Justice Department clone (was he not part of a bunch of zygotes Morton Judd stole when his coup attempt failed). I'm sure post Day of Chaos Justice Department cloning personnel with lessons learned from the  Kraken disaster, would, be to put it mildly, a bit more circumspect in their total ownership of the material and processes from start to finish.

I'm not sure there was ever any suggestion that Kraken's flaws were a result of a dirty test tube. His problems - overwhelming and absolute self-abnegating zealotry which eventually turns into despondent self obsession under the weight of nagging doubts, causing misery and suffering for those around him - follow the same pattern we've seen Fargo, original Rico and Dredd follow * as well.

* in Origins, Brothers of the Blood, and Tour of Duty, repectively

[Steve Green]

He was haunted by dreams of Judd though, and was brought up to destroy Justice Dept.

So, no blame attached...

[ZenArcade]

Yes, the core characters traits outlined by Sauchie are there in several, if not all of the Fargo clone variants. The Kraken charachter, however spent the years during which formative character traits become ingrained, in an environment and in a moral environment which was the anthesis of that espoused by Justice Department. I think an organisation like Justice Department would have a basic lessons learned ethos predecating its future actions in relation to the clone developmental process. I simply do not think they would by nature be supine in this matter; instead surely they would be guided by the Einstinian adage (I paraphrase).... stupidity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.

[ZenArcade]

Sorry Steve I was busy formulating and typing my reply and missed your post, which more elegantly reflects my reply. Z

[TordelBack]

The case of Kraken and Judd is an interesting one. Judd is effectively the Dredds' creator, as suggested by those 'double d's', but despite being clones of the very man whose regime he is trying to overthrow, and whose weaknesses he is aware of, he continues to use the Fargo bloodline in his own Judda.  He must see the potential for single-minded brutality and unswerving loyalty to an ideal in the genome, but like Justice Department before and after him he thinks he can stamp out the introspective questioning streak that ultimately makes the McFargos so unpredictable (and at the same time so potentially great).

Genetics aside, a lifetime of indoctrination followed by years of contradictory indoctrination might be seen to represent special circumstances in Kraken's case.  But we still have no real answer about Rico I.

[ZenArcade]

TordelBack, the issue of Rico 1 is problematic. My personal opinion is the Dredd and Rico 1 clones were produced at the early phase of the technological process. There are errors and dead ends in the inception of any totally new technology, the initial Manhattan project, Alamagordo fission detonation went ahead even though there were serious misgivings about neutron flux reactions basically igniting the planetary atmosphere.
Justice Department were probably just a little less lucky than Fermi et al with Rico 1. However even he whilst deeply flawed didn't cause any great amount of damage (as a plus he seems to have begat a noble and loving daughter). So even with Dredd/Rico 1 we have a 50% success rate with a lot of lessons learned.

[TordelBack]

I'm going to disagree, and say that I think the issue isn't any kind of flaw, either inherent or as a result of the processes employed:  the struggle to search for, define and to do the right thing no matter what, and the potential to judge oneself against those standards, fail and fall, are what define the whole Fargo bloodline, and what make it so valuable.  Dredd isn't a great judge just because he's a mindless bully, it's because he's a mindful one, for all that his process of self-examination is agonisingly slow. 

McGruder sees this way back when the issue of Dredd's origin first crops up.  When it is suggested that Dredd's doubts be dealt with surgically she says this "would diminish the man".

Churning out Fargos will inevitably result in perceived 'failures' because they are all balanced on a knife-edge.  Rico's descent into criminality is merely his answer to the question all his brothers face.  Interfering with the pattern to create 'improved' models like Nimrod and Paris isn't going to work, because it's the struggle inherent in the very human baseline Fargo that's unique and special, not speed or strength or quick decisions.

[Frank]

He was haunted by dreams of Judd though, and was brought up to destroy Justice Dept. So, no blame attached...

There's always a bullet to the head, a rad pit fallen into, a visit from the sisters, a letter from a meddling kid, unhappiness at the Academy, or a visit from Randy Fargo and the boys to explain why the many lives of Eustace Fargo always seem to follow the same course, from absolutism to abandonment. When there are so many different explanatory causes, but always the same result, you have to wonder whether those causes are really what's at the root of the problem.

[ZenArcade]

I agree with both the last two posters for I guess different reasons. I suppose Justice Department could take either a subtle approach or indeed a brutal approach to the dichotomy at the heart of the Dredd clone issue. The subtle approach I guess could involve breeding/cloning (whichever) positive character traits through to the next generation of clones. I suppose akin to canine breeding, but in a Petri dish. The brutal approach would be something akin to McGruders suggestion with a few tweeks. The basic morality would be hard even for Justice Department to countenance, but they do have a kinda end justifies the means thingy sitting uneasily near the heart of their philosophy.
All of my views and attempted suggestions get away from the need for an environment where stories can be told.

[Frank]

the struggle to search for, define and to do the right thing no matter what, and the potential to judge oneself against those standards, fail and fall, are what define the whole Fargo bloodline, and what make it so valuable.  Dredd isn't a great judge just because he's a mindless bully, it's because he's a mindful one, for all that his process of self-examination is agonisingly slow. 

McGruder sees this way back when the issue of Dredd's origin first crops up.  When it is suggested that Dredd's doubts be dealt with surgically she says this "would diminish the man".

Churning out Fargos will inevitably result in perceived 'failures' because they are all balanced on a knife-edge.  Rico's descent into criminality is merely his answer to the question all his brothers face.  Interfering with the pattern to create 'improved' models like Nimrod and Paris isn't going to work, because it's the struggle inherent in the very human baseline Fargo that's unique and special, not speed or strength or quick decisions.

Spot on. Rico 1's criminality was a more cynical response to the same despair that would start gnawing away at his more obdurate clone brother seven or eight years later, but Rico always was quicker on the draw than Dredd. All the Fargos, including Vienna and Dolman, have followed that same pattern of doggedly pursuing a single goal in the belief it represents the answer to their problems, and then retreating in disillusionment. In Vienna's case she abandons her attempts to win the attention of her uncle/father/grandfather through the theatre as a result of similar trauma to those described above in relation to Rico 1 and Kraken.

[Steve Green]

Sorry Steve I was busy formulating and typing my reply and missed your post, which more elegantly reflects my reply. Z

No problem!

- Steve

[ZenArcade]

Again guys some interesting views. I was probably more interested originally in Demographics etc; I'll give other forum members a chance to contribute (if they have the will).
Ps Now that I've posted over 50 times do I get promoted from sub-basement to basement sewer droid: I met a really shabby old droid the other day called Alan 1 who said this was the case.

[IndigoPrime]

You correctly point out the trauma inflicted on Street Judges.

I was thinking more about the citizens, who will be desperate and more likely to fight. They feel utterly let down—again—and could provide more of a handful per capita than before.

The City's infrastructure damage whilst widespread would be quickly repaired (or at least the smaller areas required to house a denuded populace) given 22nd century technology and the automated nature of labour within Mega City One.

But this still requires money, and the stories have repeatedly pointed out that MC-1 is essentially bankrupt now. (Quite how the city's economy worked in the first place, I've no idea—I guess it was a satirical swipe on maxed-out capitalism, running on a vicious cycle of debt and rampant consumerism.)

getting PSU going again would be a priority

Money. Manpower. Expertise. All down or gone.