unoffical merchandise

[Wake]

I think there's a significant difference between someone selling resin Rogue Trooper kits based on a home-sculpted original and someone else scanning artwork from a prog (e.g the Gaze into the Fist of Dredd image) and then getting it printed onto 100 t-shirts.

Wakehttp://images.andale.com/f2/103/128/7609242/1016046851521_rogue_trooper_b_w.jpg">

[Devons Daddy]

not that i would be interested in that type of thing, but do you have an address of that naughty vendor with the t-shhirts.
i shall email my disapointment and credit card details to him right away.
;~)

[GordonR]

>>I think there's a significant difference between someone selling resin Rogue Trooper kits based on a home-sculpted original and someone else scanning artwork from a prog (e.g the Gaze into the Fist of Dredd image) and then getting it printed onto 100 t-shirts.

Rather than picking examples at both extremes of the scale, at what exact point does copyright theft cease being okay and start becoming objectionable?

Stealing ?10 is okay, but stealing ?1000 is bang out of order.  At what point between those extremes does theft become theft to you?

[jock]

Apparently you can produce 10 of something without infringing copyright..

I met a guy at Dreddcon who used to sculpt for Reaction figures... he was never happy with the Dredd that was produced and starts work on a 10" figure based on my Dreddcon:3 image (me chuffed!!)  But because it'll be an *extremely* limited run there's no copyright problem...

So there you go. I'm not sure legally why this is....

Jock

[jock]

P.S- that Rogue figure's a bit ropers isn't it?

J

[Devons Daddy]

uncle umpty!!!!
you have 9 of htose t shirts left.perhaps you offer one FOC.to jock.so 8 left now.

[Wake]

Here are a few examples of my personal opinion of what crosses, or doesn't cross that boundary. I'm sure other people have different boundaries, and I'm not even convinced mine is set in stone.
_____________

Anything made just for yourself - okay

Resin casts of movie props or fan models - Okay
Resin casts of commercial models - Bad

Original artwork of 2000AD characters by non-2000AD artists - Okay
Artwork prints - Bad

Making something (e.g. t-shirts, clocks, mugs) for yourself and one or 2 friends - Okay
More than about 5 copies - Bad

Getting stuff signed for free with the sole intention of reselling at a profit - Objectionable but technically okay

Software - bad
Photocopies of printed stories/artwork - bad

Can you think of anything else which should be included above?

Wake

[Wake]

Yes, I wouldn't actually want to buy that Rogue figure, but it makes a good extreme example.

Wake

[Devons Daddy]

decent t shirts. as there are non currently avaible = good.as long as its only a limited run.i get one.

dredd badge.,as rebellion dont seem to be able to make a bigger verison of the key ring = good

but to sum up. all would be bad if rebellion actaully managed to get a decent range of quality merchandise aviable for us to purchase.
the comic shops are filled with stuff for other characters no matter how obscure. why not tooth ones.
its all down to rebellion in the end.

[GordonR]

>P.S- that Rogue figure's a bit ropers isn't it?


It's well shonky.

Never mind breach of copyright - breach of good taste and craftmanship, surely?

[Trout]

Okay, here we go. It's a bit of a minefield, but this is the gist.

The law says it's not acceptable (as a civil matter, ie lawsuit, not a criminal one, ie banged up) to use someone else's intellectual property without their permission.

It's designed to avoid sub-standard versions of someone else's (in theory) quality product devalueing their property, or being confused with the real thing.

Whether you make money or not is irrelevant. It's not about your profits; it's about their loss.

On a practical level, however, "going to law" costs so much that unless someone is really milking things there's no point in chasing them. Usually a lawyer's letter sent in warning will be the start and end of any action.

Added to that is the "homage" factor prevalent in comics, films, etc. Fan fiction, small items for sale and so on all promote the product itself so it might be successfully argued that the other person is gaining and not losing as a result of your actions.

It would also be pretty shitty to chase a fan who's just showing his love for what you do.

Hope that's helpful.

- Trout, who was nearly a lawyer but couldn't stay awake long enough

[Devons Daddy]

do you think we should email this thread  to pat mills?

[El Spurioso]

My take on this subject would be:

Making money by exploiting the creativity and time of another person, without first obtaining permission in the correct fashion, is shit.  No excuses.  No exceptions.

You might well point at Fanzines like CO'79, Zarjaz, etc, but those that are allowed to develop and evolve without any acrimonious relationship with their 'parent' company have generally sought and received the nod.  If Rebellion were adamant that they didn't want fans creating their own stories based on their characters, we'd all be livid if Mr Lewis* or Mr Logan* turned-up behind a convention-table asking for ?2-a-pop.  They wouldn't be doing it for profit because there *isn't* any in small-press, but we'd all be furious nonetheless.  How is that any different from Mr. X producing resin-statue Y and flogging it for limited monetary gain?  It's still a ripoff.

Beyond the bare-faced-thieving-cheek of it all, there's also the element of quality.  Wake's shining example of an allowable infraction of copyright law is, sorry, shite.  That Rogue figure's legs are all wonky, it's all out-of-proportion.  It may be a tiny effect, but if the guy who made that goes out and sells a few he's dragging-down the perception of the quality of one of Rebellion's top characters.  Good quality - and, by association, licensed - merchandise should advertise itself, not create an impression of shoddy worksmanship and general rubbishness.

Sorry.  I'd love one of those Dredd T-shirts too, but only if Reb gave it the nod or if I made it myself and never ever wore it out in public.

Incidentally - I hate to be a hard arse about this, but the argument "I asked Rebellion if they minded but they never got back to me, so I'm going to do it anyway and it's their fault if they don't like it.." is a bit lame.

Long story short: Just because 2000AD doesn't have a ravenous pack of vulture-like lawyers waiting, Disney-stylee, to pounce on any opportunistic pirate, doesn't mean they're ripe for exploitation.







* Fortunately both chaps are semi-officially endorsed, and a jolly good job they do too.

[Wake]

Straying away from 2000AD, but more into the realms of people making real money from unofficial merchandise....

How come you can buy stuff like unauthorised X-Files episode guides, or unofficial pop-star biographies, etc. Surely this kind of thing is too big to go unnoticed, and yet they get into book shops no problem.

Just search Amazon.co.uk for unofficial and unauthorised

Wake

[GordonR]

Wake said:

"How come you can buy stuff like unauthorised X-Files episode guides, or unofficial pop-star biographies, etc. Surely this kind of thing is too big to go unnoticed, and yet they get into book shops no problem."


These are different things entirely, wake, and not really pertinent to the argument.

Epiode guides etc count as critical commentary, and are perfectly legal, as long as they don't reproduce images, full scripts etc without permission.  (You'll notice that few of these invariably cheapo things carry pictures etc of the movie/TV series they're commenting on.)

Biographies come into the same bracket.  You can't copyright reality, and people are free to write about you if you want.  You and your work and the details of your life exist, and so people are free to comment on them and tell other people about them all they want.

Your point is kind of like saying, well, how come newspapers and magazines can do features on Tatu or review what was on TV last night?

What we're talking about here is intellectual property - the rights to something which you haven't created and which you don't own - and, I have to say, I agree with just about everything El Spurrio said on the subject.